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Article: Bloodbath

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:29 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...?1081-Bloodbath

#2 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:40 PM

I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.

#3 Nick Nelson

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:05 PM

Well, Tom Kelly, for one. Went through four straight 90-plus loss seasons from '97 to 2000 before turning things around in 2001 and then retiring.

#4 spideyo

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:10 PM

I think Bobby Valentine demonstrates exactly why they didn't fire Gardy and Anderson.

All of our non-pitchers are under contract next year, and you have a core of pitchers they hope to build around. Replacing EVERYONE could easily create the kind of culture clash that caused toxicity in the Boston clubhouse.

Not only that, but now Boston is going to be paying Bobby V 2.5 mill to NOT manage them next year. Do you really think TR wants to be on the hook for two managers salaries next year?

Far better to send a strong message and then simply let the contract expire and have only a few new pieces to add.



Also, is Mickey Hatcher still looking for a coaching job?

#5 jokin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:12 PM

I haven't bothered to sit down and look this up, but I have to wonder how many managers in the past have had consecutive 90-loss seasons and not been replaced.


I asked this on another thread. I do know of one for sure, and it illustrates the current problem. Tom Kelly. 97,98,99,00 (with loss totals of 97,92,97,93).

#6 jokin

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:18 PM

I think Bobby Valentine demonstrates exactly why they didn't fire Gardy and Anderson.

All of our non-pitchers are under contract next year, and you have a core of pitchers they hope to build around. Replacing EVERYONE could easily create the kind of culture clash that caused toxicity in the Boston clubhouse.

Not only that, but now Boston is going to be paying Bobby V 2.5 mill to NOT manage them next year. Do you really think TR wants to be on the hook for two managers salaries next year?

Far better to send a strong message and then simply let the contract expire and have only a few new pieces to add.



Also, is Mickey Hatcher still looking for a coaching job?


I was typing while you were posting. The example of Bobby Valentine is a poor one. He would not fit here, would never have been considered by ownership or management, and besides that, he would never have wanted to come here. How about Ron Washington or Mike Scoscia? Much better fits, who may both soon be looking for another job. With all the Latin players here or on the fast track to the majors, how about contacting Ivan Rodriguez for a coaching job? I bet Omar Vizquel would jump at a major league coaching job offer. There certainly have to be potential pitching coaches out there available that could give the Twins the fresh approach they so desperately need with all the young arms in the organization. Sign two FA pitchers that don't need a lot of hands-on attention and you've got yourself a change in the right direction back towards AL relevancy.

Edited by jokin, 04 October 2012 - 10:22 PM.


#7 Seth Stohs

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:42 PM

Justin Morneau is NOT happy at all with the decision to fire Joe Vavra, and I agree with him! Vavra has done the job. 2 MVPs. Mauer's batting titles. Willingham and Doumit's best seasons. Plouffe's emergence.

Shipley article in the Pioneer Press:
http://www.twincitie...y-joe-vavra-out

"I had some good seasons in the minor leagues, obviously, but when my career really turned around was when he kind of took over," Morneau said. "It's one of those things you're disappointed to see."


"I think he's one of the only coaches in the big leagues with multiple MVPs, batting titles, and we won team batting titles under him. We've had some great offensive teams, and he's meant a lot to me -- second to none."


#8 Shane Wahl

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:59 PM

Vavra was not at all the problem. Anderson and Gardenhire are. Gardy's sticking around is one thing given his contract, but Anderson REALLY needs to go away.

#9 beckmt

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:20 PM

I think TR was admitting part of the issue was the amount of money to spend on draft picks under the old system and the fact the Twins had late first round picks and then had to watch the money for signability issues before the last couple of CBA's. Anderson seems to have gotten a pass due to starting rotation injuries and ineffectiveness(Blackburn, Marquis) from pitchers who have a lack of talent. I do not remember a modern era major league club that did not finish the year with a least one member of the starting rotation from spring training left, and I do not think those issues were all Anderson. I hope this is not a statement that the Twins do not intend to sign any FA starters from at least the middle group. That would set Gardy and Andy both up for failure, along with the front office, plus send the Twins into a downward attendence spiral that would be hard to reverse. I believe that TR had to find major league openings for Cuellar and Brunansky or probably lose both of them this winter. These moves will not mean a lot if not followed with some signings that will give hope to Twins fans for the next year. Due to BIll Smith the pitching cuboard is bare for another year or two at least, that needs to be fixed by trades or FA signings. I believe TR will explore both, but trades risky as they can be will be the way to fix the club. I only hope TR is as good as Billy Beane in talent evaluation.

#10 SarasotaBill

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 04:58 AM

Off the subject - from ESPN's Keith Law

What kind of numbers could Chris Parmelee put up in a full season? He seems to be a different player over the last year and a half. Make sense to trade Morneau and give him a shot?
[h=6]Klaw (2:09 PM)
[/h]

I am not a big believer in Parmelee or Plouffe, sorry. I don't think either guy is an average everyday player.

#11 Ex-Iowegian

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:36 AM

I am curious about the Vavra (infield) and Ullger (outfield) pedigrees for their new positions. It lends itself to having one full time and one part time hitting coach if Vavra stays at the major league level, which is kind of unclear at this point. Probably too soon to tell.
I agree that keeping Cuellar and Bruno may have had more to do with this than many will give credit. It will be fun to see who, if anyone, comes up from within the organization.

#12 SweetOne69

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:43 AM

I do not remember a modern era major league club that did not finish the year with a least one member of the starting rotation from spring training left, and I do not think those issues were all Anderson.


Technically 1 starter from the opening day roster was still in the rotation at the end of the season. Liam Hendricks came North with the Twins because Marquis stayed behind due to his daughter's accident.

#13 SarasotaBill

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:02 AM

Twins web site indicates Vavra and Ullger will be minor league instructors.

#14 Willihammer

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:14 AM

edit: wasn't aware of the update

Edited by Willihammer, 05 October 2012 - 08:34 AM.


#15 Winston Smith

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:34 AM

Isn't this a little like going to the Dr and he says I have bad news you have brain cancer. But the good news is we can cure it by cutting off your arms and legs.
This comment brought to you from the Rosedale Mall studio by Hamm's Beer, brewed in the land of sky blue waters.

#16 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:41 AM

I think Andy should have been let go. The re-assignment thing is really ridiculous. Get the guys out of the clubhouse. Vavra and Gardy would be the only 2 coaches I'd keep.

#17 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:50 AM

Pretty much the way it is in every war.

The Generals and the Colonels (Gardenhire & Anderson) are pretty darn safe.

The captains (Ullger & Vavra) are reassigned to positions further away from the battlefield.

The lieutenants, corporals and privates (Stelly, White, Liddle, McWane) are dead.

It is a ridiculous way to effect change in an organization.

#18 nokomismod

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:04 AM

How much do you think the decisions on which coaches stay vs go had to do with TR talking with players to get their opinions? Would he take someone like Pavano or Mauer's opinions on the matter?

#19 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:15 AM

Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?

#20 gunnarthor

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:41 AM

Just looked up a few but managers that have had back to back 90+ loses that weren't fired included Kelly, Torre, Mauch, Cox, Mack, Maddon, Pinella, Trembley, Hargrove, Torborg, Trammel, Houck, McNamara, etc

#21 J-Dog Dungan

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:46 AM

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).

#22 gunnarthor

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 09:51 AM

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).


He won't be traded. Ryan will want one more shot at fixing the rotation and a middle line up or Mauer, Willingham and Morneau is a nice one. If the rotation breaks down, Morneau will be moved at the deadline where his salary won't be as big an issue.

#23 DAM DC Twins Fans

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:18 AM

Any bets about what Morneau's future will be with the team now that he has expressed disappointment with the team for getting rid of Vavra? Now accepting bets that Mornie will now be traded this offseason (although that might send the wrong message).


There is no doubt Morneau is gone--he has basically said he wont re-sign now.

I wonder if Gardy walks away. If I was him, I would. Take away my coaching staff (except for Anderson) and give me guys I may or may not want with a no pitching--you are basically telling me I am a lame duck--maybe I should walk away now.

Why not keep the bullpen coach who has been here forever?? Twins better give him some honor next year.

This was done poorly and handled worse.

#24 twinslover

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 10:38 AM

Where are all the people complaining about how the medical staff is the problem and that nothing will be done about it?

A while ago I wrote a short blog about how when TR took over as again, one of the things he mentioned was evaluating every part of the organization, including the medical staff, and I questioned if they would also be awarded a "scholorship" looks like they have not. It also looks like everyone on the coaching staff has been put on notice with all the 1 year deals that expire after next year. I guess TR is trying to light a fire under someones ass?

#25 JB_Iowa

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:28 AM

I wonder if Gardy walks away. If I was him, I would. Take away my coaching staff (except for Anderson) and give me guys I may or may not want with a no pitching--you are basically telling me I am a lame duck--maybe I should walk away now.

Why not keep the bullpen coach who has been here forever?? Twins better give him some honor next year.

This was done poorly and handled worse.


I agree that the execution of all of this was egregious.

As for Gardenhire, I've wanted to see him gone because I thought it was time for a change. I think he could be successful somewhere else. It looks like there will be a number of vacancies this off-season. It may very well be in his best interest to resign. (I would not see that as being a "quitter" although some might. From the things he's said, he'd probably like to stay and win with the Twins but the talent he has to work with is pretty much outside his control.)

#26 SeanS7921

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:48 AM

It would be great to get rid of Morneau and his 15 million. Morneau was average at best this season for a 1B/DH. I think his WAR was around 1. He's garbage if they could get that 15 million off the books for a used lawnmower in return that would be great. Not sure why they fired poor Jerry White. What does a 1st Base Coach do besides give tips on the pitcher and relay signs? He got smoked.

#27 Highabove

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:07 PM

Just looked up a few but managers that have had back to back 90+ loses that weren't fired included Kelly, Torre, Mauch, Cox, Mack, Maddon, Pinella, Trembley, Hargrove, Torborg, Trammel, Houck, McNamara, etc


Take Joe Moddon off the list. He acquired a 95+ loss mess.
Maddon's Ray's had 97 wins in just year three.

#28 Musk21

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:59 PM

My theory is that the Twins still want Gardy as the manager, but that he threatened to walk if they let Andy go.
If Twins can't re-sign Hunter, plans are to trade, sign a FA or go in-house to find a replacement.

#29 Fire Dan Gladden

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:23 PM

Right or wrong, the biggest internal values in this organization are loyalty and continuity. Remember that TR and Gardy know how the system works in Minnesota and are willing to work within the confines of what the Pohlads lay down. All you pretty much hear about Gardy, both locally and nationally, is that he is a good manager and the guys love playing for him. Tons of respect everywhere. I still believe that if Gardy leaves, it will be because he wants to, not because he was let go, regardless of what willbe said publicly.

As for Gardy currently being on a one year contract, correct me if I am wrong, but haven't the Twins traditionally signed him to a 1 yr contract with an option year every year? I believe that the contract is usually quietly signed in November/December. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in him being on the "hot seat".

The Vavra move was surprising in that the team has seen a lot of individual improvement under his watch (I would contend that poor players are more to blame than Vavra).

Also, if you think you are going to see "major cultural changes", think again. They are filling all of these spots from within, not one will be an external hire. If Gardy does ultimately leave the team, do you really think his replacement will be external.

The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.

#30 Boom Boom

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:33 PM

The sad part of this whole mess, is that if the Twins starting pitching stayed healthy (beyond the coaches control I might add), this team would probably be around .500, these changes would not have happened, and we would be talking about the 1 or 2 moves the team could make to be competitive, instead of complaining about the organization being stagnant.


.500 would have been a lofty goal with the rotation set up as it was originally.

Liriano, Blackburn, and Marquis DID stay healthy. Baker and Pavano... do you think that, combined, they were worth 15 more wins than the replacements? I don't.