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Attention Mauer Haters!

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#1 Fire Dan Gladden

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:15 PM

Joe is now 5th in the AL in batting and 1st in OBP. He is also 2nd among all catchers in BA, 2B, OBP, and OPS (thanks to the currently godlike Carlos Ruiz). He is 3rd in walks and... wait for it... AB! C'mon haters, bring it on!

#2 CK

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:22 PM

But he makes 23 million and is too laid back. LOLz. Couldn't kee a straight face. Go, Joe!

#3 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:42 PM

not at all a Mauer hater, WAY more of a fan...but cannot stand that he cannot hit for extra base power (NOT homeruns...doubles). Hard to complain right now, but his ISO of .123 is atrocious. Stay healthy & catch more. A singles hitting batting champ is something Id give up for an everyday catcher

#4 John Bonnes

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:18 PM

Earlier today I tweeted that I'm as optimistic about Mauer as I've been in years. But before we get too carried away... Those are nice accomplishments. But his overall OPS is 865. That's a nice number, especially for a catcher. Except that he's not a full time catcher. He has 33 starts there out of 75 games. And he has 31 starts at first base or DH. The bottom line, I think, is this: for those that want to compare his performance to his $23M price tag, Mauer is never going to be worth it. And that's because he likely is never going to be worth it. Not unless he adds the same power he had in 2009 and gets bionic hips/knees that allow him to catch 125 times per year. If you need him to be the Baby Jesus to enjoy his game, you're going to be disappointed. You can decide if it's his or the Twins or the media's or your fault that you're disappointed. But for those that can ignore the price tag, he's a hell of a good player most of the time, including right now. And he's also 29. If the Twins can keep him healthy, and if Mauer can keep working on his game, there could be a lot of happy days for him, the Twins and their fans ahead.

#5 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:30 PM

I was driving up to the north shore on Thursday and listening on the radio; there was an interesting discussion with Jim Souhan about Mauer and Morneau, about why Mauer is hated by so many fans and why Morneau has basically gotten a pass, even though based on performance Mauer is far outstripping Morneau. Some of the conclusions/conjectures: The price tag - $14M is easier to swallow than $23M; Morneau gave the appearance of trying harder to get back on the field after injury (I emphasize appearance, not necessarily reality); and Morneau just has a more likeable personality - Mauer is more guarded with the media and just can't win people over with ease like Morneau can.

#6 twinswon1991

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:44 PM

[quote name='John Bonnes']Those are nice accomplishments. But his overall OPS is 865. That's a nice number, especially for a catcher.
Except that he's not a full time catcher. He has 33 starts there out of 75 games. And he has 31 starts at first base or DH. QUOTE]

Agree 100%.

#7 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:49 PM

I want Joe Mauer to catch.....not Mark Grace at 1B/DH----pay is secondary

#8 stringer bell

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:05 PM

Yes, it is a conundrum. Mauer is a fine hitter for a catcher. He is merely above average if considered a first baseman/DH. It certainly appears for whatever reason that Mauer won't be able to catch 120+ games this year or in the future. It seems to me that Mauer should catch as much as he can, but he seems to suffer too many dings to catch much more than half time.

#9 Highabove

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:21 PM

I do not believe that there are many people who actually hate Mauer. A lot of folks were angry and upset with him last year. There were plenty of reasons to be upset. Mauer is trying very hard to make amends for last year. I believe, most of the public realizes this. Most of the time when I am at Target Field, he is getting a warm reception. Folks such as Phil Mackey and Jim Souhan, will play up the (hate Joe mauer angle) They need a group that they can refer to as being " stupid, crazy and foolish idiots." They get their ammunition mostly from twitter, newspaper comments and supposedly their own emails. These outlets represent a very small portion of the Twins Fan Base.

Edited by Highabove, 30 June 2012 - 10:34 PM.


#10 glunn

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:48 PM

I was frustrated by what seemed like a lack of preparation and effort last year. I also would like to see Joe take more of a leadership role. But I have never been a hater.

#11 jokin

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:53 AM

I was frustrated by what seemed like a lack of preparation and effort last year. I also would like to see Joe take more of a leadership role. But I have never been a hater.


My sentiments exactly. The catching position is a natural leadership position, unfortunately that just doesn't appear to complement Joe's natural personality, which at times, when dealing with the media, is somewhat reminiscent of the classic literary character from Gone With The Wind, the milquetoast Ashley Wilkes. It just doesn't appear in his nature to do what Puck, and to a lesser extent, Hunter, accepted naturally, ie, the willingness to put the team on his back. He was seemingly unaware that with his new contract now in effect, that more would be asked and expected of him in terms of "preparation and effort".

When he's playing near the top of his game at the plate, he's a marvel with the bat, it is somewhat reminiscent to what Rod Carew could do with the stick, without the bunting. Unfortunately, he's being paid to produce like 2009 is his normal output.

For him to come closer to justifying his contract he must 1) stay healthy, which should limit the batting slumps; 2)continue to reverse his semi-disastrous early-season GB/FB ratio (even now, still ridiculously high at 3.15 vs career 1.89); 3) which in turn, can continue to increase his slugging percentage closer back to career norms (check out Joe's 2010 stats, they almost perfectly match his career norms- 2010: 327/402/469 vs career numbers of 324/404/469), after today, Mauer's slugging % has soared significantly this month to his present season high of 448. 4) Joe has had 3 of 8 years in his career exceeding a 500 SLG %, which was accomplished w/o a drop in BA. I'd gladly trade a few points of OBA for a few more points of SLG for a player making $23 MIL and batting in the 3 spot.

I give the Twins and Mauer credit for effectuating a plan in terms of managing/limiting his catching duties in order to maximize his value at the plate. Joe's current rate of games at the catcher position relative to total games played for 2012 is only 44%. That translates out to only around 72 games at catcher for Mauer in a 162 game season and that probably is what it is for the rest of his career, which changes the valuation metrics on his contract significantly.

Edited by jokin, 01 July 2012 - 01:59 AM.


#12 ofx1

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:04 AM

the bottom line, i think, is this: For those that want to compare his performance to his $23m price tag, mauer is never going to be worth it. And that's because he likely is never going to be worth it.


wtf?

#13 buckninetyone

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:43 AM

mauer haters, or hauer maters? rutger's single, y'all.

#14 FrodaddyG

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:49 AM

mauer haters, or hauer maters?

rutger's single, y'all.

Finally, Buck posts. Something to look forward to.

#15 Shane Wahl

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:41 AM

I have been ridiculed for thinking that FanGraphs "value" is useful at all, but it is at $10.6 million right now.

#16 Twins Fan From Afar

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:37 AM

I have been ridiculed for thinking that FanGraphs "value" is useful at all, but it is at $10.6 million right now.


I have also used that in a couple prior blog posts on Mauer. I don't put much stock in it, but it's just another "tool" in the arsenal to compare players.
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#17 woolhouse

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:46 AM

Whenever I want to complain about him leading the league in GIDP, I just have to remind myself: so did Kirby Puckett most years.

#18 Riverbrian

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:46 AM

For Mauer to be loved again... All he has to do is Hit around .330 like he's doing and add about 22 more dingers each year. Oh yeah... Stay Healthy and if he does get hurt... make sure that everyone can see a big ace bandage wrapped around the injury for the duration. At least limp. Stop selling Shampoo and only endorse Grain Belt or other truly Minnesota companies. If Mauer does all of that. He will be loved again.

#19 Seth Stohs

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 09:58 AM

The bottom line, I think, is this: for those that want to compare his performance to his $23M price tag, Mauer is never going to be worth it. And that's because he likely is never going to be worth it. Not unless he adds the same power he had in 2009 and gets bionic hips/knees that allow him to catch 125 times per year. If you need him to be the Baby Jesus to enjoy his game, you're going to be disappointed. You can decide if it's his or the Twins or the media's or your fault that you're disappointed.

But for those that can ignore the price tag, he's a hell of a good player most of the time, including right now. And he's also 29. If the Twins can keep him healthy, and if Mauer can keep working on his game, there could be a lot of happy days for him, the Twins and their fans ahead.


This says it perfectly. I say just enjoy how good he is. The money is spent... It's guaranteed. Just enjoy having one of the greats of the game, rather than always having to put it up against something else.

#20 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:02 AM

Whenever I want to complain about him leading the league in GIDP, I just have to remind myself: so did Kirby Puckett most years.


I'll probably get blasted for saying this but Joe Mauer is a better baseball player than Kirby Puckett.

He's not a perfect baseball player but it looks like he's turning the corner again and he's not putting the ball on the ground so often in the past six weeks. He'll always GIDP a fair amount because he hits the ball on the ground a lot, he's relatively slow, he makes a ton of contact, and the Twins have decent OBP guys in front of him who don't hit for much power (meaning that if they're on base, it's probably only first base).

I don't care if Joe hits a ton of home runs. His real value is in spraying the ball all over the place and hitting the gaps fairly routinely. He's doing that again which gives me hope for his future level of play.

edit: I thought I better check the splits on this and Joe was killing worms in June. Meh. That's disappointing.

#21 boney

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:15 AM

[quote name='rocketpig']I'll probably get blasted for saying this but Joe Mauer is a better baseball player than Kirby Puckett.



I'm not the one to blast anyone on here but what do you consider Mauer better at other than career avg.

#22 cr9617

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:36 AM

My sentiments exactly. The catching position is a natural leadership position, unfortunately that just doesn't appear to complement Joe's natural personality, which at times, when dealing with the media, is somewhat reminiscent of the classic literary character from Gone With The Wind, the milquetoast Ashley Wilkes. It just doesn't appear in his nature to do what Puck, and to a lesser extent, Hunter, accepted naturally, ie, the willingness to put the team on his back. He was seemingly unaware that with his new contract now in effect, that more would be asked and expected of him in terms of "preparation and effort".

When he's playing near the top of his game at the plate, he's a marvel with the bat, it is somewhat reminiscent to what Rod Carew could do with the stick, without the bunting. Unfortunately, he's being paid to produce like 2009 is his normal output.

For him to come closer to justifying his contract he must 1) stay healthy, which should limit the batting slumps; 2)continue to reverse his semi-disastrous early-season GB/FB ratio (even now, still ridiculously high at 3.15 vs career 1.89); 3) which in turn, can continue to increase his slugging percentage closer back to career norms (check out Joe's 2010 stats, they almost perfectly match his career norms- 2010: 327/402/469 vs career numbers of 324/404/469), after today, Mauer's slugging % has soared significantly this month to his present season high of 448. 4) Joe has had 3 of 8 years in his career exceeding a 500 SLG %, which was accomplished w/o a drop in BA. I'd gladly trade a few points of OBA for a few more points of SLG for a player making $23 MIL and batting in the 3 spot.

I give the Twins and Mauer credit for effectuating a plan in terms of managing/limiting his catching duties in order to maximize his value at the plate. Joe's current rate of games at the catcher position relative to total games played for 2012 is only 44%. That translates out to only around 72 games at catcher for Mauer in a 162 game season and that probably is what it is for the rest of his career, which changes the valuation metrics on his contract significantly.


Right on

I would say the main reason his popularity has taken such a big hit, is this: He and his agent used the Hometown angle to squeeze every nickle out of the Twins that they could. They knew that Twins would face a PR nightmare if he signed elsewhere, and the FO couldn't allow that to happen. While there was no doubt other teams would have offered as much or more for his services, it's pretty clear that Joe could never survive the pressure and media scrutiny that would go along with playing in a place like Boston, NY, or maybe Philly or L.A. I don't think he ever had any intention of playing anywhere other than MN, knowing full well the Twins would be forced into offering a massive contract. Forget about a Hometown Discount, the Twins had to pay a Hometown Premium to keep him here. Even though, i don't think he ever had any desire to play in bigger market with all that pressure and scrutiny.
He's one of us. His agent used that angle and had the Twins over a barrel. Then his production goes down, he starts to transition away from catcher, he shows us how soft he is, how clueless he can be, and how non-exsistent his leadership qualities are. He's the anti-Kirby Puckett.

We all know he's a great hitter. But he's paid like a top 5 player in the game, and he's more like a top 30 player. And some of the fan base feels cheated by one of their own....and he still doesn't quite seem to get it.

#23 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:40 AM

I'm not the one to blast anyone on here but what do you consider Mauer better at other than career avg.


He takes far more walks than Kirby. He plays catcher, historically the weakest offensive position on the field. His slugging percentage is pretty much the same as Kirby's.

His career OBP is a whopping 40 points higher than Kirby, who never posted an OBP higher than .379. Joe is on his way to cresting a .400 OBP for a fifth time in his career. The only tangible advantage Kirby had over Joe was in stolen bases, which Kirby basically stopped doing in his mid to late 20s.

Kirby Puckett was a very good baseball player. Joe Mauer is a better one.

#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:45 AM

Right on

I would say the main reason his popularity has taken such a big hit, is this: He and his agent used the Hometown angle to squeeze every nickle out of the Twins that they could. They knew that Twins would face a PR nightmare if he signed elsewhere, and the FO couldn't allow that to happen. While there was no doubt other teams would have offered as much or more for his services, it's pretty clear that Joe could never survive the pressure and media scrutiny that would go along with playing in a place like Boston, NY, or maybe Philly or L.A. I don't think he ever had any intention of playing anywhere other than MN, knowing full well the Twins would be forced into offering a massive contract. Forget about a Hometown Discount, the Twins had to pay a Hometown Premium to keep him here. Even though, i don't think he ever had any desire to play in bigger market with all that pressure and scrutiny.
He's one of us. His agent used that angle and had the Twins over a barrel. Then his production goes down, he starts to transition away from catcher, he shows us how soft he is, how clueless he can be, and how non-exsistent his leadership qualities are. He's the anti-Kirby Puckett.

We all know he's a great hitter. But he's paid like a top 5 player in the game, and he's more like a top 30 player. And some of the fan base feels cheated by one of their own....and he still doesn't quite seem to get it.


Joe Mauer would have received more than $181m on the open market. The Yankees, Red Sox, and other large market teams were absolutely clamoring to find a good catcher in 2009. Posada was on his way out. Varitek was 150 years old. Mauer would have received Pujols-type money from one of those teams.

#25 jokin

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:11 AM

Joe Mauer would have received more than $181m on the open market. The Yankees, Red Sox, and other large market teams were absolutely clamoring to find a good catcher in 2009. Posada was on his way out. Varitek was 150 years old. Mauer would have received Pujols-type money from one of those teams.


My impression is that he wasn't going anywhere. He's the MLB catcher's version of Greinke. His agent, Ron Shapiro, had to be one of the luckiest men alive back in 09/10, look at the facts on the table:

1) If Mauer really wanted Pujols-type money, he could have waited for FA to bid his value even higher
2) GM Bill Smith
3) Mauer has career year at age 26 in 09
4) Mauer's power production numbers were wildly inflated in a soon-to-be irrelevant stadium
5) Even as he was producing numbers that were ridiculous for a catcher, his full-time catching days were already numbered
6) Mauer was physically breaking down even as his numbers were still on the upswing
7) The Twins couldn't possibly afford the PR disaster of losing the "face of the franchise" during Target Field's marketing stage
8) Did I mention Bill Smith? Oh yeah, Shapiro was "negotiating" with possibly the most unprepared GM in sports history

#26 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:16 AM

If Joe Mauer can stay relatively healthy for the next 7 or so years he will goto the hall of fame. Since he already doesn't rely on home runs or speed to obtain his very good .874 Career OPS there is no reason why he can't continue to put up .860-.900 OPS seasons until he is 35 or so. Just take a look at his top 10 similarity scores through age 28 on Baseball Reference: 1. Mickey Cochrane (Hall of Famer) 2. Bill Dickey (Hall of Famer) 3. Jason Kendall (Kendall was quite good for his first 5-6 years) 4. Yoggi Berra (Hall of Famer) 5. Victor Martinez 6. Jose Vidro 7. Gary Carter (Hall of Famer) 8. Derek Jeter (Future hall of famer) 9. Nomar (Was on his way to a HOF career before he broke down) 10. Charlie Gehringer (hall of famer) Also, Mauer is putting up very similar numbers as Rod Carew did while he was a Twin (higher OPS, slightly lower OPS+), and he has done all of this playing the most demanding position on the field (the majority of the time), oh and he plays that position extremely well often being cited as one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Mauer has already placed him self somewhere in the top 5 Twins of all time (I place him above Olivia, and close to equal to Puckett and Carew) and an argument could be made that he will end up the 2nd best Twin of all time by the end of this contract. So what does all of this suggest? If you hate Mauer, you are basically a fair weather fan/brain dead moron. Yes, 23MM is a lot of money, it would have been nice if they could have gotten him on board for 18MM-20MM a season, but for hall of fame production I will take that contract any day.

#27 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:18 AM

My impression is that he wasn't going anywhere. He's the MLB catcher's version of Greinke. His agent, Ron Shapiro, had to be one of the luckiest men alive back in 09/10, look at the facts on the table:

1) If Mauer really wanted Pujols-type money, he could have waited for FA to bid his value even higher
2) GM Bill Smith
3) Mauer has career year at age 26 in 09
4) Mauer's power production numbers were wildly inflated in a soon-to-be irrelevant stadium
5) Even as he was producing numbers that were ridiculous for a catcher, his full-time catching days were already numbered
6) Mauer was physically breaking down even as his numbers were still on the upswing
7) The Twins couldn't possibly afford the PR disaster of losing the "face of the franchise" during Target Field's marketing stage
8) Did I mention Bill Smith? Oh yeah, Shapiro was "negotiating" with possibly the most unprepared GM in sports history


I don't really disagree with anything you're saying except it still doesn't negate the point that if Mauer chose to hit free agency, he gets Pujols-type money. The poster I replied to said Mauer demanded a "hometown premium". That simply wasn't the case. If he plays through 2010 and hits the FA market, he gets over $200m (ie. more than the Twins paid him). Mauer put up an .871 OPS in 2010 in a stadium that plays huge. Teams wouldn't have balked much at his 2010 line when negotiating a contract.

#28 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:20 AM




I'm not the one to blast anyone on here but what do you consider Mauer better at other than career avg.


Mauer also has a 44 point advantage over Puckett in career OBP, and for people that claim that Mauer is only a singles hitter it should be noted that his .470 career slugging percentage is almost equal to Puckett's .477 career slugging. Mauer's OPS+ also happens to be 11 points higher then Puckett as well.

Both were elite fielders, but I think Mauer gets the slight edge on defensive value since catcher is generally considered the toughest position in baseball followed by SS, 2B and CF. Though some people switch 2B and CF which is fine.

Also it should be noted that I am one of the biggest Kirby Puckett fans/defenders out there.

#29 Curt

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:44 AM

This just in... in other news... pepperoni pizza is better than sausage pizza.

#30 Curt

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:48 AM

This just in... in other news... pepperoni pizza is better than sausage pizza.


I just realized that if pepperoni pizza cost $23 million I would probably never have it again. :mad: