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Poll: Should the Twins move on with Ron Gardenhire? (25 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the Twins move on with Ron Gardenhire?

  1. Yes (14 votes [56.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 56.00%

  2. No (10 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  3. I'm indecisive/Afraid of commitment/Don't care (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Don't choose this option (Rebels?) (1 votes [4.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

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#1 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 04:45 PM

Seems like a silly question (especially from someone who understands the complexities of arbitration and the baseball offseason), but what does Gardy actually do besides fill out the lineup sheets? What does he do outside of the game is a better way to put it. I think it's important to know, because many attribute the fall of the Twins to him; whereas, I don't think a manager change really does too much in terms of wins and losses.

#2 Nick Nelson

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:23 PM

Seems like a silly question (especially from someone who understands the complexities of arbitration and the baseball offseason), but what does Gardy actually do besides fill out the lineup sheets? What does he do outside of the game is a better way to put it. I think it's important to know, because many attribute the fall of the Twins to him; whereas, I don't think a manager change really does too much in terms of wins and losses.

No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.

#3 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:43 PM

If there is any argument to have Gardenhire replaced, it is pretty much a change of voice scenario. There are some like Thrylos and his minions who want to have Ron's head on a stake, but Gardy has done a pretty good job. You don't win Manager of the Year Awards if you are not respected amongst your peers and execute to a higher degree. If a change was made during the season, it would be a super shocker. If Gardy is out, it is probable the whole staff is gone as well. I can see a resignation this offseason if there isn't a major shift in progression this season and that does not necessarily mean wins vs. losses and no one except maybe Jerry White would be allowed to return to the MLB coaching staff if that scenario happens. I was reading a thread earlier today that brought up the name of Mike Redmond - If that change was made, I would be pretty stoked about that. If no player on the team has a fiery and leadership personality, I think Red Dog could fill both of those roles. It will be rebuilding no matter who holds the mantle of field manager. If you are to start over and trying to establish a new identity - Redmond fits the bill.

#4 Seth Stohs

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:52 PM

No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.


I agree with this.

#5 twinsnorth49

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.


I believe this as well, I've been trying to say it for weeks.

#6 peterb18

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:10 PM

I do think that when teams are of equal ability then the right manager does make a difference. I don't know how many games over the season; but, there would be some. Gardy's biggest attribute is his personality and working with today's high priced athletes. That is big for management today. However, I do think that Gardy is average at best(or over-rated) in strategy. Example: In tonights game--5th inning)--Santana is starting to get wild--walks a couple of guys, etc. then Spann goes after the first pitch. Even a good Legion, or High School coach--would say, Let's take some pitches and make him work. Doing what Spann did is not the supposed, "Twins Way".

#7 JB_Iowa

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 08:53 PM

Well, I haven't voted yet. But I have always thought that Gardenhire's best quality was an ability to keep the club on a relatively even keel -- not let them get too high or too low. And I thought that he did better in an underdog role than in a favorites role. All personal impressions but I'm not sure there is any other way to judge a manager. I have also commented many times in the past that I thought the even keel mentality worked well over the course of a long season but was a detriment to the team over a short post-season series where there isn't time to take the long approach. If it turns out that the keel is now permanently stuck in a depressed mode, it seems to me that you have to look at a change.

#8 OrangeDisk

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:05 PM

I'm curious about the question the way it was originally posed -- what does a manager do outside of games?

#9 spideyo

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:38 PM

I'm curious about the question the way it was originally posed -- what does a manager do outside of games?


Ummm...hosts a radio show? Does potato chip commercials? Hawks cherry juice?

#10 glunn

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 10:32 PM

I'm curious about the question the way it was originally posed -- what does a manager do outside of games?


I would hope that he talks with the players individually and helps them focus on improving. But that may just be a fantasy.

In my fantasy, Gardenhire would take Pavano aside and ask him to be a mentor to a young pitcher who is struggling, such as Hendriks was before he was sent down.

#11 twinsnorth49

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 11:02 PM

I would hope that he talks with the players individually and helps them focus on improving. But that may just be a fantasy.

In my fantasy, Gardenhire would take Pavano aside and ask him to be a mentor to a young pitcher who is struggling, such as Hendriks was before he was sent down.


Apparently Pavano was mentoring Hendriks before he got sent down, who else would have taught him it's a good idea to throw gopher balls over the plate to major league hitters. That's not a fantasy, it's a nightmare.

#12 Top Gun

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:41 AM

Will Gardy make it to Memorial day?

#13 James

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:44 AM

I'm don't usually think firing Gardy is a good idea. I did vote yes today though, but I struggled to do it. I think that Gardy will make it through the season and he will (or be asked to) resign, but it will be mostly mutual. It may not be the best thing, but it will be a PR move to show that the ownership is at least trying to give the fans a quality product (if you believe that is genuine or not is up to you). This is just what I'm expecting to happen if the season continues like this.
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#14 powrwrap

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:10 AM

Should the Twins 'move on' with Gardenhire? I don't know what this means. Does it mean "Should the Twins go forward with Gardenhire?" Or does it mean should the Twins "move on" to another manager other than Gardenhire? My answer is that the Twins should not fire Gardenhire.
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#15 Fire Dan Gladden

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:17 AM

There is virtually no chance Gardy gets fired this year. The injuries, lack of depth in the system, and bad direction from upstairs has more to do with our current situation then what Gardy is doing right now. In a more global discussion, if we continue to see massive underperformances like we are seeing now, with no steps in the right direction, there would probably more internal support for this move next year.

#16 whydidnt

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:41 AM

Those of you that think the manager has no impact on the team and doesn't do anything besides filling out a lineup card must never have played sports at any level or coached. I played as kid and coached youth sports for about 10 years while my daughter was growing up. The manager/coaches have a huge impact on the team and players, from teaching them how to play right, to discussing when to implement strategy to making sure they are trying their best and playing within the concept of the team, to even finding out what buttons to push to get players to perform better. You can say that once a guy makes it to the major leagues that he has learned all of this, but I would reply by asking if you've watched any of the games this year? I'm convinced that all of this falls under the direction of the manager, and is his responsibility. What he doesn't have total control over, and appears to be the Twins biggest issue is the lack of talent. However, let's not forget that he does have input in personel decisions and that he seems to have a tendency to like and play "gritty guys" over talented guys. Will firing Gardenhire and replacing him with a HOF manager put this team in the World Series? Doubtful. However, if they continue to lose 2 out of 3 games than I think it's time for a new voice and new direction, if for no other reason that what we are doing isn't working and how could it get any worse?

#17 glunn

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:31 PM

Those of you that think the manager has no impact on the team and doesn't do anything besides filling out a lineup card must never have played sports at any level or coached. I played as kid and coached youth sports for about 10 years while my daughter was growing up. The manager/coaches have a huge impact on the team and players, from teaching them how to play right, to discussing when to implement strategy to making sure they are trying their best and playing within the concept of the team, to even finding out what buttons to push to get players to perform better. You can say that once a guy makes it to the major leagues that he has learned all of this, but I would reply by asking if you've watched any of the games this year? I'm convinced that all of this falls under the direction of the manager, and is his responsibility. What he doesn't have total control over, and appears to be the Twins biggest issue is the lack of talent. However, let's not forget that he does have input in personel decisions and that he seems to have a tendency to like and play "gritty guys" over talented guys. Will firing Gardenhire and replacing him with a HOF manager put this team in the World Series? Doubtful. However, if they continue to lose 2 out of 3 games than I think it's time for a new voice and new direction, if for no other reason that what we are doing isn't working and how could it get any worse?


I was on the fence, but this post and others have convinced me that the time has come for Gardenhire to move on.

#18 jokin

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:41 PM

No one really knows, therefore this discussion is - at best - uninformed. How much impact does a manager truly have? In most cases I think it's very little.


One name instantly refutes that, Kirk Gibson. Veteran bloggers willing to post their own names who make statements like this boggles my mind and causes me to wonder if they have ever played organized team sports at any significant level. Those who are uninformed on this topic aren't working hard enough or paying close enough attention.

#19 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:00 AM

One name instantly refutes that, Kirk Gibson. Veteran bloggers willing to post their own names who make statements like this boggles my mind and causes me to wonder if they have ever played organized team sports at any significant level. Those who are uninformed on this topic aren't working hard enough or paying close enough attention.


Seriously? Some subtlety is required. Talking about coaches from the ages of 5-18 is one thing . . . of course they have a significant impact. The question is not about them, however. While I think the impact of a MLB manager is greater than Nick may indicate here, it is NOT like those coaches when one was a kid.

#20 Nick Nelson

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:14 AM

[quote name='whydidnt']Those of you that think the manager has no impact on the team and doesn't do anything besides filling out a lineup card must never have played sports at any level or coached. I played as kid and coached youth sports for about 10 years while my daughter was growing up.[/QUOTE]
In that case, I yield to your obviously vast level of expertise when it comes to major-league managers and their impact.

These are adult, millionaire athletes we're talking about. The notion that they need managers to teach them how to play and make sure they try their best is silly. By the time they've reached the majors their fundamentals (or lack thereof) are ingrained.

[quote name='whydidnt']You can say that once a guy makes it to the major leagues that he has learned all of this, but I would reply by asking if you've watched any of the games this year?[/QUOTE]
Yes, I've watched most of the games. I also watched most of the games from 2002-2010 when the Twins (under Gardy) were renowned as one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the game. I'd venture to say that the issues now are more related to personnel than the manager randomly forgetting how to coach.

[quote name='jokin']One name instantly refutes that, Kirk Gibson. Veteran bloggers willing to post their own names who make statements like this boggles my mind and causes me to wonder if they have ever played organized team sports at any significant level. Those who are uninformed on this topic aren't working hard enough or paying close enough attention.[/QUOTE]
Gibson's overall record as D-Backs skipper is 142-135. What does that prove or refute, exactly? Is your argument that he's chiefly responsible for the massive improvement of Arizona's pitching staff from 2010 to 2011? Did his very presence make pitchers pitch better, or did he as a former hitter have some special insight that he shared with them to drop their ERA by a full run? Explain.

#21 Top Gun

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:23 AM

Brandon Inge hit his second grand slam in three days Thursday against the Tigers. Inge has managed to drive in 12 runs in four games,

#22 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:45 AM

Brandon Inge hit his second grand slam in three days Thursday against the Tigers.

Inge has managed to drive in 12 runs in four games,


Haha, yeah people like Seth and Aaron Gleeman were pretty adamant about Inge's terribleness. Note that in G and G 39, I believe, Aaron claims that Inge has been terrible for the last five years. That is a blatant falsity. Last year he was bad. 2008 he was below average. Before and in-between? Good. Certainly better than Drew Butera. That is the true replacement here. My god. What a damn joke.

#23 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:48 AM

Don't get me started on this team signing actual legitimate MLB players instead of assclowns like Clete Thomas. Derrek Lee, Bobby Abreu, Vlad Guerrero, Brandon Inge. Yeah . . . no value there . . . let's sign Clete Thomas . . . and what's actually worse . . . after Thomas is terrible, allowing him to further pollute the farm system in Rochester. My god.

#24 whydidnt

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:40 AM

In that case, I yield to your obviously vast level of expertise when it comes to major-league managers and their impact.

These are adult, millionaire athletes we're talking about. The notion that they need managers to teach them how to play and make sure they try their best is silly. By the time they've reached the majors their fundamentals (or lack thereof) are ingrained.


Yes, I've watched most of the games. I also watched most of the games from 2002-2010 when the Twins (under Gardy) were renowned as one of the most fundamentally sound teams in the game. I'd venture to say that the issues now are more related to personnel than the manager randomly forgetting how to coach.


Well, if you really think that once a guy gets the majors he's reached the pinacle of his game and can't learn any more than I can't dissuade you from that thought. I think that there is still plenty of learning to happen. From time to time I watch some of the shows on after the Twins games focusing on players like Blyleven, Carew, etc. It seems like the often mention the positive impact a manager had on their careers, I know Carew mentioned Billy Martin the other night. I also think there were many players that played under Tom Kelly that indicated he was a positive influence on their careers. So if you think the manager has nothing to do with it, so be it, but I think most major leaguers have a different opinion. You also conveniently cut out my point that the biggest problem we have is lack of talent, which would seem to agree with your statement. Baseball players really aren't that different from most the rest of us, sure they have a specific talent, and probably are more competitive, but at the end of the day they still can and should continue to learn, adapt and improve, just like those of us in the work force have to. Often we improve significantly when we have a leader or mentor that takes us under their wing and teaches us. Even though we were already vastly qualified to do the job we were hired to do. I guess you think that doesn't happen when a guy gets to the majors though, and that the Manager can't and shouldn't do these things. It's all about the talent the guy does or doesn't have and no amount of coaching will change that, right?

#25 Boom Boom

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 07:52 AM

I agree that a manager's influence on the team is, in most cases, negligible. However, that also means that much of the praise and acclaim that Gardy has received has been largely unearned.

#26 twinsnorth49

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:12 AM

It's all about the talent the guy does or doesn't have and no amount of coaching will change that, right?


At the end of the day, yes it's all about the talent.

The two guys you refer to are in the HOF, did certain people have an impact on their games?Sure, is it what put them in the HOF? No, that would be their talent. If Gardy had two players with that ability, we wouldn't be talking about this.

A good manager influences how a player best uses their talents, how to refine their already obvious talents and to give them the belief that they are talented enough. It's still up to the player to perform and those guys performed. If Carew and Blyleven had insignificant careers would we be sitting here blaming Billy Martin or Tom Kelly? So every failed major leaguer has a manager somewhere to blame for not being a more positive influence?

Prove to me Gardy is not a positive influence, seems to me he's trying the hell out of getting Danny Valencia to realize what a good player he could be if he used his talent differently. It's Gardy's fault that Valencia either refuses to listen or maybe, after all, just lacks the ability to do it? Fire Gardy because he can't be a positive enough influence to make players like Valencia or Plouffe into Hall of Famers like Carew and Blyleven? C'mon!

Don't change the messenger, change the guys not getting the message.

#27 twinsnorth49

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:17 AM

I agree that a manager's influence on the team is, in most cases, negligible. However, that also means that much of the praise and acclaim that Gardy has received has been largely unearned.


I would also agree with that. Another manager could have very well had as much success or more than Gardy with the same teams. Obviously someone in the Twins organization values Gardy for other reasons, reasons that mean more than won/loss records.

I've praised Gardy in the past but I've never said someone else couldn't have done just as good a job on the field, that success isn't all his to own.

#28 Boom Boom

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:25 AM

I would also agree with that. Another manager could have very well had as much success or more than Gardy with the same teams. Obviously someone in the Twins organization values Gardy for other reasons, reasons that mean more than won/loss records.

I've praised Gardy in the past but I've never said someone else couldn't have done just as good a job on the field, that success isn't all his to own.


And I'd never say that Gardy is a bad manager, but when I hear things like "Gardy gets the most out of average players" I don't think that gives enough credit to the players themselves. The early 2000's Twins may not have been the most talented bunch, but they were rock-solid fundamentally, and that has more to do with their work ethic than Gardy's instruction, IMO.

#29 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:29 AM

I never really put much thought into the way I wrote the question. I could see how you could get confused. I meant "go forward" or to keep him in the same position.

#30 whydidnt

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:30 AM

At the end of the day, yes it's all about the talent.

The two guys you refer to are in the HOF, did certain people have an impact on their games?Sure, is it what put them in the HOF? No, that would be their talent. If Gardy had two players with that ability, we wouldn't be talking about this.

A good manager influences how a player best uses their talents, how to refine their already obvious talents and to give them the belief that they are talented enough. It's still up to the player to perform and those guys performed. If Carew and Blyleven had insignificant careers would we be sitting here blaming Billy Martin or Tom Kelly? So every failed major leaguer has a manager somewhere to blame for not being a more positive influence?

Prove to me Gardy is not a positive influence, seems to me he's trying the hell out of getting Danny Valencia to realize what a good player he could be if he used his talent differently. It's Gardy's fault that Valencia either refuses to listen or maybe, after all, just lacks the ability to do it? Fire Gardy because he can't be a positive enough influence to make players like Valencia or Plouffe into Hall of Famers like Carew and Blyleven? C'mon!

Don't change the messenger, change the guys not getting the message.


Sounds like we are arguing about 2 sides of the same point. I never implied that a manager can take a non-talented individual and make him a HOFer. I simply said that manager CAN influence how guys play. I think it can be both positive and negative. Your point regarding Valencia is interesting, because last year Gardenhire threw the guy under the bus every chance he had. Who knows what kind of influence that had on him, this year he tried a different approach, was it right? I don't know. But I do know that managing people is more than just telling them what to do, it's about getting people to buy in to the idea that doing it the right way is the best way to do things, and a one size fits all approach doesn't work. Talent has a huge impact on how guys perform at the major league level, I'd argue that you can't make it the majors without talent, and you probably can't make it to the HOF without having way more talent than 99.9% of the population. But I'd also argue that we see lot's of "talented" guys fail in the majors, do they all fail because lack of talent? I really think there's a mental aspect we'll never be able to measure. You can't argue Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins winning for a decade and then that he has no responsibility when the team completely fails over the last two years. If manager's have virtually no impact on the success or failure of a team, why do major league teams continue to pay guys millions of dollars a year to do "nothing". If they can hire any Joe of the street and get the same results, wouldn't at least one franchise had figured that out by now, and we see a contests for manager for the year - win and manage the Twins for $75,000 this year? I think most franchises have figured out that the Manager does have "some" level of impact and because of that they try to hire guys they think will improve their chances of winning. I will repeat that talent at the major league level is more important, but that being able to extract the most out of that talent is the manager's job, and some are better at it than others, just like some guys are better at laying bricks than others.