Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email

The Store

Photo

Nice article on Twins international signings

  • Please log in to reply
29 replies to this topic

#1 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:38 AM

http://www.baseballa...al-prospects-2/

Badler's article gives credit to Latin American scouting coordinator Fred Guerrero and international scouting coordinator Howard Norsetter for their work in making the Twins big players in international free agency. Only the Rangers and Red Sox have more international players in the BA prospect handbook than the Twins. Badler notes successes like Arcia and Pinto as well as low minors players like Thorpe and Polanco.

#2 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,764 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:48 AM

Good read. I have been highly critical of the approach over the last three years, hopefully some of those guys work out, and they make me look stupid.
Lighten up Francis....

#3 Trevor0333

Trevor0333

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 313 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 04:25 PM

Their real problem was when there was no caps on international signings & would avoid players with higher than norm bonus demands in the draft. They had a low mlb payroll & unspent $ available to spend but chose not to use that to bolster their system.

#4 Thrylos

Thrylos

    Yes

  • Members
  • 4,210 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 04:58 PM

That was an excellent article and I hope what Badler is saying about Polanco ("glove first shortstop") will silence his critics who sight unseen want to relegate him to second base already...
-----
Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
http://tenthinningst...h.blogspot.com/
twitter: @thrylos98

#5 Trevor0333

Trevor0333

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 313 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 05:15 PM

That was an excellent article and I hope what Badler is saying about Polanco ("glove first shortstop") will silence his critics who sight unseen want to relegate him to second base already...


Yes, much much too early. He is by far their best chance at a 2 way SS in the system & not a terrible one.

#6 drivlikejehu

drivlikejehu

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 499 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 05:51 PM

Polanco "was a defensive-oriented shortstop." As in, when the Twins signed him, years ago. He has spent most of time until now at 2B for a reason.

#7 Thrylos

Thrylos

    Yes

  • Members
  • 4,210 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 07:21 PM

Polanco "was a defensive-oriented shortstop." As in, when the Twins signed him, years ago. He has spent most of time until now at 2B for a reason.


as I said...
-----
Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
http://tenthinningst...h.blogspot.com/
twitter: @thrylos98

#8 drivlikejehu

drivlikejehu

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 499 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:06 PM

as I said...


The Twins know infinitely more about Polanco than you, and clearly they've had concerns with his ability to play SS. They weren't playing him at 2B because he was too good for SS.

#9 Thrylos

Thrylos

    Yes

  • Members
  • 4,210 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:19 PM

The Twins know infinitely more about Polanco than you, and clearly they've had concerns with his ability to play SS. They weren't playing him at 2B because he was too good for SS.


And why are they exclusively playing him at SS now over teammates Niko Goodrum and Levi Michael? Do they know less now?

The last 2 seasons he was in the same team as Goodrum (the Twins 2nd round pick) in Etown and Cedar Rapids and increasingly getting more SS than 2B time...

Nothing about what the Twins "knew". It is all about what people think they "knew"...

Edited by Thrylos, 05 May 2014 - 08:27 PM.

-----
Blogging Twins since 2007 at The Tenth Inning Stretch
http://tenthinningst...h.blogspot.com/
twitter: @thrylos98

#10 drivlikejehu

drivlikejehu

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 499 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:27 PM

And why are they exclusively playing him at SS now over teammates Niko Goodrum and Levi Michael? Do they know less now?


I don't know and neither do you. Perhaps his offensive improvement has made his defensive limitations easier to live with. But if he was a natural, pure SS, he would have played there all along. If you read Baseball America's actual reports, rather than taking a few words out of context, maybe you would pick up on that.

#11 70charger

70charger

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,119 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:37 PM

Stop with the sniping. Of course nobody knows what he's going to be. That's why they're trying him at shortstop atfreaking A Ball!

You both agree that nobody knows anything, so quit it.

#12 CRArko

CRArko

    Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 1,246 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 08:42 PM

Stop with the sniping. Of course nobody knows what he's going to be. That's why they're trying him at shortstop atfreaking A Ball!

You both agree that nobody knows anything, so quit it.


You should be in all the threads.
Oh, I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay,
I sleep all night and I work all day.

#13 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 12 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:08 PM

You should be in all the threads.


Most threads IMO have been pretty civil lately.

Stop with the sniping. .... You both agree that nobody knows anything, so quit it.


Better to flag such instances to the moderators' attention, rather than taking matters into one's own hands and/or waiting for a moderator to wander by and notice.

That said: yes, this topic can be discussed in terms of the player and not in terms of the posters and what they "know".

#14 blindeke

blindeke

    Member

  • Members
  • 95 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:26 PM

Hey man, what do we know?

#15 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 12 posts

Posted 05 May 2014 - 11:03 PM

Hey man, what do we know?


We know to be respectful to fellow TD posters, among others. :)

http://twinsdaily.co...-September-2013

#16 clutterheart

clutterheart

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 648 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 04:19 AM

Also need to give Bill Smith Credit for taking the risk and shelling out the money for these guys. That 2009 class is impressive and I doubt Ryan would've spent on Sano, Kepler AND Polanco.

Smith might be the 2nd worst GM in Minnesota Sports History (David Kahn reigns supreme here) but he would step up and spend when had to.

#17 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 4,453 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 07:48 AM

Polanco "was a defensive-oriented shortstop." As in, when the Twins signed him, years ago. He has spent most of time until now at 2B for a reason.


I think the reason's name was Niko Goodrum. This could be a Jacque Jones/Torri Hunter situation from a while back for all I know.

#18 DJL44

DJL44

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 268 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:35 AM

Smith might be the 2nd worst GM in Minnesota Sports History (David Kahn reigns supreme here) but he would step up and spend when had to.


Dude. Mike Lynn. Plus, I think the Wolves have the top 4 on the list.

#19 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 878 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:05 AM

Also need to give Bill Smith Credit for taking the risk and shelling out the money for these guys. That 2009 class is impressive and I doubt Ryan would've spent on Sano, Kepler AND Polanco.

Smith might be the 2nd worst GM in Minnesota Sports History (David Kahn reigns supreme here) but he would step up and spend when had to.


I believe you're perpetuating a common myth here. Billy Smith had less to do with the final contracts than you assume. In fact, he was not the central figure in any of these negotiations. Furthermore, the overall budget for international expenditures was established well before Guerrero or Norstetter or any of the other international scouts talked contract with any of these guys. As for the constantly-touted notion that Smith was a big risk-taker and spender, and that Ryan would have screwed the pooch on these deals, exactly what proof or basis (other than your own perception of Ryan's "history") do any of you have to back this notion up? How do you know that Smith didn't balk at the Sano contract showdown? Maybe he was pushed into pulling the trigger because of the urging and firm advice of, oh, say Ryan? Maybe Pohlad encouraged him to be aggressive. In any event, you can be sure that others weighed in rather heavily, that other opinions carried more weight than Smith's, and that there was consensus about very one of these signings that started with the international scouting people, migrated to the full scouting organization, and only eventually made its way to the GM.

#20 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,705 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:15 AM

Smith might be the 2nd worst GM in Minnesota Sports History (David Kahn reigns supreme here) but he would step up and spend when had to.


He wasn't that bad - he did move away from the piranhas and created the 2010 team. That team was arguably our best team since 91.

Anyhow, the Vikings didn't officially have a GM between Lynn and Spielman but there were a lot of bad moves in that time span. I forget the name of the guy they fired who drafted Tarvaris Jackson (and called him a "boy"). The North Stars had some pretty bad years there too. And Kevin McHale couldn't build a team around KG.

#21 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,764 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:17 AM

We can only judge from the facts we know, like the spending patterns under both GMs. You can conclude, in the face of all evidence, that Ryan would have done the same thing. I can conclude that since Smith was the GM, he played a role in the decisions. Neither of us know.
Lighten up Francis....

#22 tobi0040

tobi0040

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,179 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:32 AM

Dude. Mike Lynn. Plus, I think the Wolves have the top 4 on the list.



McHale says hi.

#23 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 878 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:04 AM

We can only judge from the facts we know, like the spending patterns under both GMs. You can conclude, in the face of all evidence, that Ryan would have done the same thing. I can conclude that since Smith was the GM, he played a role in the decisions. Neither of us know.


And we can also draw whatever conclusions we want by ignoring facts, mike. It is a fact that international budgets are pre-set, and that "spending patterns" are a function of the budget. The international scouting and signing process has been the subject of many articles, so we have common knowledge that a myriad of individuals play a much more vital role in the process than Smith did and Ryan does. This cannot be reasonably disputed. Of course you can conclude that Smith played a role, that's a "well duh" conclusion. But judge it from all the facts, mike. If we choose not to ignore the reality of how the international scouting and signing process plays out, then I think we have to conclude that the GM's role is not nearly as important as some choose to assert.

#24 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,764 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:06 AM

Fact: while Ryan was GM, they never spent that much money (before the limits were set by MLB)
Fact: while Smith was the GM, they did

Those are the only two facts that we actually know. conclude what you want, I'll conclude what I want.
Lighten up Francis....

#25 kab21

kab21

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,315 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:31 AM

Fact: while Ryan was GM, they never spent that much money (before the limits were set by MLB)
Fact: while Smith was the GM, they did

Those are the only two facts that we actually know. conclude what you want, I'll conclude what I want.


Other facts that you have left out while praising Bill Smith for his free spending ways:

He cut MLB payroll by 15M the same season that he spent 5ish M on Sano/Kepler/Polanco.

He was two seasons away from Target Field opening.

#26 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 4,905 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 10:39 AM

This cannot be reasonably disputed. Of course you can conclude that Smith played a role, that's a "well duh" conclusion. But judge it from all the facts, mike. If we choose not to ignore the reality of how the international scouting and signing process plays out, then I think we have to conclude that the GM's role is not nearly as important as some choose to assert.


People credit and blame the GM because that's part of the job. Executive positions assume the risk of being responsible for what their underlings do both good and bad. It would be ridiculous to slam the brakes on every discussion of the front office because we can't parse out what share of responsibility the GM had to that particular move in question.

This article gives names that both Smith and Ryan should get credit for bringing in. Sano was a particularly unique case that Smith presided over and he deserves more credit for what a game changer it was to take that risk. It should be ok for people to tip their hat and say "Yeah, that one really worked out!" I think McHale was an awful GM...but big tip of the cap for Love!

I know what you're trying to do is be fair in credit/blame, but that's just not a practical way to discuss the matter nor does it take into account that the GM role comes with this sort of criticism/praise.

#27 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,764 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:19 AM

I'm really not interested in this argument, again. I started off by praising the article, even though I had been critical of them lately. Then we had to get into the whole "Smith sucks, Ryan is awesome", "no, Smith did some good things" argument for the 100000000 time. I hope to never have this discussion again, frankly.
Lighten up Francis....

#28 ashburyjohn

ashburyjohn

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Moderators
  • 12 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 11:56 AM

Moderator's note: a side comment about an ex-GM does not need to turn into a retrospective on that GM's career. Several people couldn't resist the bait. Let's end that aspect of the discussion, here and now.

#29 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 878 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 01:06 PM

Moderator's note: a side comment about an ex-GM does not need to turn into a retrospective on that GM's career. Several people couldn't resist the bait. Let's end that aspect of the discussion, here and now.


Fair enough ashbury, it's your ball. But you know, when several people "take the bait", what's wrong with allowing a little leeway? You'll note that as the first one "baited" by a commenter regurgitating the GM retrospective stuff, my attempt was to steer the conversation to a quick discussion point about others who deserve credit. Is that not more relevant to the topic than the standard mindless crediting of all things to some past or present GM as if the rest of the organization is impotent?

#30 Paul Pleiss

Paul Pleiss

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 447 posts

Posted 06 May 2014 - 09:08 PM

glunn edit -- not the place to discuss moderation.

The Twins have been known to be big in Australia, they seem to continue to pull young Aussies across the ocean and develop them all the way up to the big leagues, hopefully some of those Aussies can find a permanent home at MLB level. Bill Smith, for all the griping I've done about him over the years, did oversee some quality international acquisitions, and with so much talent in baseball coming from the international market, I really should give him a repreive. The Twins have a lot of young talent in the organization, and I'm excited to watch these young men, especially the international guys, develop. A guy like Lewis Thorpe would be a great story to follow in the coming years, and Polanco? Yes please. I think he can stick at SS too, hopefully he proves to the Twins that he can.

Edited by glunn, 07 May 2014 - 09:54 PM.