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  • Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade

    I started making a list of the top 10 things I hate about this trade for today’s Gleeman and the Geek podcast. I’m up to #28.

    (Kill me. Or better yet, add on in the comments section.)

    1. I hate that after waiting out the market so Liriano was the best remaining rental, the Twins traded him after his one terrible start in the last two months and less than 24 hours before a possible redeeming start.

    2. I hate that what the Twins got in return is SO much worse than what other rental pitchers brought back.


    3. I hate that despite that evidence, people will defend Minnesota Twins GM Terry Ryan by saying “we don’t know what offers they had.”

    4. I hate that neither player received was ranked in the top 10 of White Sox prospects by Baseball America, which relies heavily on what the organization thinks of their own prospects.

    5. I hate that since those rankings, neither player has had a particularly strong year.

    6. I hate that the Twins traded with an organization whose farm system is weaker than their own ravaged system.

    7. I hate that the only way I could think this trade made sense was if the Twins knew Liriano was hurt and hiding an injury.

    8. I hate that the Twins didn’t even attempt to negotiate with Liriano.

    9. I hate the Twins traded a high-upside player to division rival without knowing if he was willing or maybe desperate to sign a long-term extension.

    10. I hate that White Sox GM Kenny Williams first reaction must have been “How soon can I hang up this phone?”

    11. I hate that Williams 2nd reaction was likely “Hold it – this is too good. Is there something wrong with Liriano? Is he hurt?”

    12. I hate that Williams 3rd reaction was probably “Meh. Even if he is, who cares? All I’m giving up is Escobar and Hernandez!”

    13. I hate that the last time we thought a trade was almost this bad was when the Twins traded Capps for Ramos. And even then it wasn’t this unanimous. And the Twins stubbornly kept overpaying and bringing Capps back for two years to justify it.

    14. I hate that the last time we had this much complete unanimity on how bad a move by the Twins this is was back when they signed Nick Blackburn to a long-term deal, which also involved loving a low strikeout pitcher way too much.

    15. I hate that Hernandez is such a stereo-typical Twins pitcher – low strikeouts, good control. I hate that the Twin still think this is really the way to go.

    16. I hate that it makes me wonder if Scott Diamond - another low strikeout/great control pitcher with a lot of initial success - is going to end up like Blackburn/Carlos Silva/ Joe Mays sooner rather than later.

    17. I hate that the Twins, rather than walking away with their winnings on guys like this, keep doubling-down until they lose.

    18. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that can’t get on base.

    19. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that likely won’t make the top 10 prospects in their own organization.

    20. I hate that this trade reinforces that the Twins have failed to develop decent middle infielders – even when they trade for them.

    21. I hate that this trade makes me wonder if the Twins inability to develop good middle infielders doesn’t have less to do with their farm system and more to do with their philosophy and scouting.

    22. I hate the Liriano was my Gleeman and the Geek Pickpointz pick of the week, making it possibly the worst pick in the history of the game.

    23. I hate that if this was the best offer, keeping Liriano wasn’t an option.

    24. I hate that Ryan felt the need to dump Liriano for this package while simultaneously praising him for his character in the locker room, bringing into question why he didn’t keep him.

    25. I hate that the most obvious answer to that question might be fiscal. And that implies thatcut-backs could make 2013 even more painful than last year.

    26. I hate that Terry Ryan did exactly the opposite of what he said he was going to do: acquired low-upside players close to the major instead of high-upside players further from the majors.

    27. I hate that this makes me doubt Terry Ryan’s leadership of the Twins.

    28. I hate that I no longer want the Twins to trade for any more “prospects” at the trade deadline.
    This article was originally published in blog: Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade started by John Bonnes
    Comments 139 Comments
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by rickyhawaii View Post
      Another thing I hate is that twins might be done trading now.. that'd be crappy work from Ryan..
      Who else should they really trade now?
      If someone isn't offering good value for Morneau, Span, Willingham, Perkins, Burton etc there is no reason to trade them for the sake of trading them. I'm all for dumping Span if we get some good players in return, but if the offers aren't there you can't make the trade.

      People blast Ryan for taking a crappy package for Liriano and then they bitch about him not trading more players....yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      I'd also love for someone to point out the last time someone traded a 28 year old 5+ ERA pitcher(2 years in a row) for anything of substantial value in the past.
    1. Riverbrian's Avatar
      Riverbrian -
      Quote Originally Posted by Rosterman View Post

      It suddenly makes me realize that Span really isn't all the worthy of a great return. Think about it.
      That's making me nervous as well... The Market for leadoff hitters or OF'ers has been so dang slow to this point. Victorino and Span are both out there along with Pierre.

      Span has to bring a top shelf arm... If not... Let's keep him. Span isn't going anywhere unless the Twins send him away. No need to send him away unless we get something real decent in return.
    1. DJSim22's Avatar
      DJSim22 -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      Who else should they really trade now?
      If someone isn't offering good value for Morneau, Span, Willingham, Perkins, Burton etc there is no reason to trade them for the sake of trading them. I'm all for dumping Span if we get some good players in return, but if the offers aren't there you can't make the trade.

      People blast Ryan for taking a crappy package for Liriano and then they bitch about him not trading more players....yeah, that makes a ton of sense.
      Earlier, you said how do you know TR hasn't tried to sign Liriano.

      Knowing TR's past, one could also suggest that he received a good deal for Span, but is over valuing him and his team friendly contract. I really have a hard time believing that we couldn't get a resonable deal for Span who plays in our deepest area of prospects.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by DJSim22 View Post
      Knowing TR's past, one could also suggest that he received a good deal for Span, but is over valuing him and his team friendly contract.
      Yeah, this is just bull****. What "past" examples are you talking about? Do you and Thrylos share sources that share these imaginary "the Twins wouldn't trade Willingham for Bundy straight up" scenarios?

      I have yet to see one reported offer for Span or any other Twin player yet.
    1. notoriousgod71's Avatar
      notoriousgod71 -
      I'd have rather gotten Sanchez or Guthrie.

      KC and Colorado both did better than us.
    1. h2oface's Avatar
      h2oface -
      32. I hate it that the twins get rid of players with high up side instead of the management team that can't seem to handle the players that do way better when they get away from them.
    1. mike wants wins's Avatar
      mike wants wins -
      Nice list...
    1. twinswon1991's Avatar
      twinswon1991 -
      I am now convinced that either Spirit of Dave is Terry Ryan himself or he is the biggest Twins FO booster on earth. How can a guy continually praise the FO especially Ryan when his scouting/drafting has left the Twins with a terrible MiL system and a 90+ loss team in the MLB? Seriously, this guy and his good old boys are clueless.

      There is no way this team improves over the next 5 years unless they get some starting pitching prospects. That means Span, Willy, and everyone else should be traded NOW. It does them no good to have favorable contracts with hitters when we know they are a 90-100 loss team with those same affordable guys around.

      Ryan needs to be FIRED immediately before this SHIP SINKS!
    1. JB_Iowa's Avatar
      JB_Iowa -
      I hate that the Twins just seem to keep doing the same thing over and over.

      New ideas, energy and enthusisasm in the front office and field staffs, PLEASE.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa View Post
      This.
      Which players sans David Ortiz has gone onto some better career after they left the Twins?
      Garza? Not really as he was already effective on the Twins, even though that trade certainly sucked.
    1. twinswon1991's Avatar
      twinswon1991 -
      Quote Originally Posted by h2oface View Post
      32. I hate it that the twins get rid of players with high up side instead of the management team that can't seem to handle the players that do way better when they get away from them.
      Spot on! It is a time for a complete organizational overhaul from the GM to the coaches to the medical staff.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by notoriousgod71 View Post
      I'd have rather gotten Sanchez or Guthrie.

      KC and Colorado both did better than us.
      How does Sanchez solve anything moving forward though?
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by twinswon1991 View Post
      I am now convinced that either Spirit of Dave is Terry Ryan himself or he is the biggest Twins FO booster on earth. How can a guy continually praise the FO especially Ryan when his scouting/drafting has left the Twins with a terrible MiL system and a 90+ loss team in the MLB? Seriously, this guy and his good old boys are clueless.

      There is no way this team improves over the next 5 years unless they get some starting pitching prospects. That means Span, Willy, and everyone else should be traded NOW. It does them no good to have favorable contracts with hitters when we know they are a 90-100 loss team with those same affordable guys around.

      Ryan needs to be FIRED immediately before this SHIP SINKS!
      I'm not praising Ryan for this trade, I'm just pointing out that it isn't the abortion many are thinking it is. The market sucked, and at the end of the day Liriano was a 5.3 ERA pitcher (5.09 last year), those guys aren't going to bring you back top 100 guys no matter how much you hope they do.

      Until we hear of a specific trade package that Ryan turned down for Span/Willingham etc it's really stupid to bitch about him not trading them at this point. For all we know the teams have been offering C+ prospects for Span thus far. If you show me a report where the Twins turned down Cingrani or Hamilton for Span then I will agree that Ryan blew it.

      I agree that Span needs to be traded at some point, but there is no reason to rush it as he will have plenty of value this off-season and on into next season.
    1. Riverbrian's Avatar
      Riverbrian -
      Quote Originally Posted by twinswon1991 View Post
      I am now convinced that either Spirit of Dave is Terry Ryan!
      Could be... Vodkadave is pretty smart. I'll take his posts seriously in case he actually is Terry Ryan.

      On the other side of the coin... Another thing to consider is that Terry Ryan kicked your puppy or something. lol.
    1. JB_Iowa's Avatar
      JB_Iowa -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      Which players sans David Ortiz has gone onto some better career after they left the Twins?
      Garza? Not really as he was already effective on the Twins, even though that trade certainly sucked.

      I changed my comment -- probably while you were writing this -- because I went back and re-read the original posters last sentence.

      But I still believe that the Twins need an injection of new life in their management -- front office and field staff.
    1. Riverbrian's Avatar
      Riverbrian -
      Another thing on Vodkadave. I read his first post on the Liriano Trade... It was a What the hell post and we were all thinking that at first. I then read vodkadave subsequently reason the trade out as the thread moved on.

      He gets two points from me for that.
    1. Jeremy Nygaard's Avatar
      Jeremy Nygaard -
      Is anyone starting to get the impression that the other GMs know that it's not that hard to "outfox" our front office? Is the Twins FO that guy in our fantasy leagues that teams always try to make a deal with because sometimes they're dumb enough to hit the "accept" button when they meant to hit "decline"?

      This deal had everything to do with the bottom line and barely anything to do with anything else. The Twins added some warm bodies... at positions of "need"... that do what the Twins like (throw strikes and play defense).
    1. DJSim22's Avatar
      DJSim22 -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      Yeah, this is just bull****. What "past" examples are you talking about? Do you and Thrylos share sources that share these imaginary "the Twins wouldn't trade Willingham for Bundy straight up" scenarios?

      I have yet to see one reported offer for Span or any other Twin player yet.
      Okay internet tough guy...

      I have yet to hear of any reported attempt to sign Liriano this year either, but that didn't stop you from writing that. Where are your examples, or are you full of ****?

      Have you heard the man speak? Have you seen how he handled his past few trades? He can't live off the A.J. trade forever.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by Riverbrian View Post
      Another thing on Vodkadave. I read his first post on the Liriano Trade... It was a What the hell post and we were all thinking that at first. I then read vodkadave subsequently reason the trade out as the thread moved on.

      He gets two points from me for that.
      Yeah, it was just a gut reaction because of a few things:
      1. As fans we ALWAYS want stud players in return.
      2. As Twins fans we know that Liriano still possess the nice ability to blow away batters.
      3. Many of us were guilty (me!) of thinking that Liriano would bring back a nice prospect package.
      4. I had never heard of either of the two prospects we got back.

      But after reading up on these guys it appears one or both could eventually help out our big league club, and at the end of the day we were trading a guy who has posted a 5.31 and 5.09 ERA in the past two seasons, projection is great and all but at the end of the day results matter.

      I still at this moment wish the Twins would have signed Liriano to a 2-3 year deal and I wish they could have fleeced some dumb GM out of some high upside 19 year old. Just because that didn't happen doesn't mean I'm ready to crap all over the orginzation and run Ryan out of town. These past two years have been frustrating but I have hope that Ryan can rebuild this club, its not going to come over night but once we hit the free angency we should have a better idea of his long term plan. Not to mention he still might be able to trade Pavano and Capps before August 31st (plus Span could be traded any minute now as well)

      It's one thing to be dissapointed to lose Liriano for so little at the end of the day, its another thing to use it as some bizzarre justification to fire everyone in the org, but the majority of the people who are saying that have been crying about Ryan's leadership the whole year anyways, even going as so far as to making up reports/sources of him turning down trades that were never offered. Obviously I will sound like a ridiculous homer compared to that garbage, and frankly I am glad I do.
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