• Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade

    I started making a list of the top 10 things I hate about this trade for today’s Gleeman and the Geek podcast. I’m up to #28.

    (Kill me. Or better yet, add on in the comments section.)

    1. I hate that after waiting out the market so Liriano was the best remaining rental, the Twins traded him after his one terrible start in the last two months and less than 24 hours before a possible redeeming start.

    2. I hate that what the Twins got in return is SO much worse than what other rental pitchers brought back.


    3. I hate that despite that evidence, people will defend Minnesota Twins GM Terry Ryan by saying “we don’t know what offers they had.”

    4. I hate that neither player received was ranked in the top 10 of White Sox prospects by Baseball America, which relies heavily on what the organization thinks of their own prospects.

    5. I hate that since those rankings, neither player has had a particularly strong year.

    6. I hate that the Twins traded with an organization whose farm system is weaker than their own ravaged system.

    7. I hate that the only way I could think this trade made sense was if the Twins knew Liriano was hurt and hiding an injury.

    8. I hate that the Twins didn’t even attempt to negotiate with Liriano.

    9. I hate the Twins traded a high-upside player to division rival without knowing if he was willing or maybe desperate to sign a long-term extension.

    10. I hate that White Sox GM Kenny Williams first reaction must have been “How soon can I hang up this phone?”

    11. I hate that Williams 2nd reaction was likely “Hold it – this is too good. Is there something wrong with Liriano? Is he hurt?”

    12. I hate that Williams 3rd reaction was probably “Meh. Even if he is, who cares? All I’m giving up is Escobar and Hernandez!”

    13. I hate that the last time we thought a trade was almost this bad was when the Twins traded Capps for Ramos. And even then it wasn’t this unanimous. And the Twins stubbornly kept overpaying and bringing Capps back for two years to justify it.

    14. I hate that the last time we had this much complete unanimity on how bad a move by the Twins this is was back when they signed Nick Blackburn to a long-term deal, which also involved loving a low strikeout pitcher way too much.

    15. I hate that Hernandez is such a stereo-typical Twins pitcher – low strikeouts, good control. I hate that the Twin still think this is really the way to go.

    16. I hate that it makes me wonder if Scott Diamond - another low strikeout/great control pitcher with a lot of initial success - is going to end up like Blackburn/Carlos Silva/ Joe Mays sooner rather than later.

    17. I hate that the Twins, rather than walking away with their winnings on guys like this, keep doubling-down until they lose.

    18. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that can’t get on base.

    19. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that likely won’t make the top 10 prospects in their own organization.

    20. I hate that this trade reinforces that the Twins have failed to develop decent middle infielders – even when they trade for them.

    21. I hate that this trade makes me wonder if the Twins inability to develop good middle infielders doesn’t have less to do with their farm system and more to do with their philosophy and scouting.

    22. I hate the Liriano was my Gleeman and the Geek Pickpointz pick of the week, making it possibly the worst pick in the history of the game.

    23. I hate that if this was the best offer, keeping Liriano wasn’t an option.

    24. I hate that Ryan felt the need to dump Liriano for this package while simultaneously praising him for his character in the locker room, bringing into question why he didn’t keep him.

    25. I hate that the most obvious answer to that question might be fiscal. And that implies thatcut-backs could make 2013 even more painful than last year.

    26. I hate that Terry Ryan did exactly the opposite of what he said he was going to do: acquired low-upside players close to the major instead of high-upside players further from the majors.

    27. I hate that this makes me doubt Terry Ryan’s leadership of the Twins.

    28. I hate that I no longer want the Twins to trade for any more “prospects” at the trade deadline.
    This article was originally published in blog: Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade started by John Bonnes
    Comments 139 Comments
    1. gunnarthor's Avatar
      gunnarthor -
      So basically we have two camps. In camp one are people who think Liriano is a good pitcher, on par or better than guys like Sanchez (many of these guys probably though Slowey was a good pitcher, too). And in the other camp are the realists. I guess its probably part of the awesomeness of baseball that the first camp seems bigger.
    1. diehardtwinsfan's Avatar
      diehardtwinsfan -
      I'm hoping that when the whisperer said his goodbye to Franciso, he mentioned how hard it is for a pitcher to do well at US Cellular...

      Here's to hoping we got a couple of mediocre prospects and helped the WhiteSox implode down the stretch....
    1. nicksaviking's Avatar
      nicksaviking -
      Is no one concerned that both of these non-prospects are now forced to take a 40-man roster spot? If any more moves are made and the Twins need to clear more roster space, now they have to lose another player just to keep thses two bums? There are a lot of expendable players on the 40-man, but if I had to decide who was the most expendable based on how they have faired in the minros and what thier ceiling is, Escobar would be the first guy I'd get rid of. This trade made no sense on so many levels.

      Escobar is already in his second option year, next year is his last. So in 2014, the Twins will be putting him on waivers already when they need to replace him for someone who can hit.

      Even if there were no better packages, and even if the Pohlad's told Ryan that in no way shape or form can Liriano be offered a qualifying offer (doubtful) Ryan's biggest mistake is clogging the already messed up 40-man instead of asking for younger developmental players.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      40 man roster issues are the least of this clubs problems moving forward, they will easily find spots for these two guys and there could even be more openings in the next couple days if additional trades are made.
    1. jorgenswest's Avatar
      jorgenswest -
      It all depends on Escobar's defense.

      There are 14 shortstops with an OBP greater than .300. Only 16 teams are getting better than .300 from their shortstops overall. Many below the line are contenders. If he can defend like the reports suggest, he can start in the major leagues. At 23, he will likely follow a growth curve with his bat. Above average defenders at the shortstop position are not easy to find. Understanding of their value and impact on games is still growing.

      We are really relying on the Twins scouts and their assessment of his defense which is the key to his impact on the Twins.
    1. Kneelb4zerg's Avatar
      Kneelb4zerg -
      This post and most of the comments is nothing more than just a bunch of whining that Liriano wasn't worth more at the trading deadline. That's the best available return. Deal with it.
    1. DJSim22's Avatar
      DJSim22 -
      Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
      So basically we have two camps. In camp one are people who think Liriano is a good pitcher, on par or better than guys like Sanchez (many of these guys probably though Slowey was a good pitcher, too). And in the other camp are the realists. I guess its probably part of the awesomeness of baseball that the first camp seems bigger.

      Basically you have two camps, the first which thinks the trade makes no sense so why bother, and the second camp who is stroking TR. Neither player received will likely amoun to anything, Escobar will be sent packing in a year.

      And no, Slowey wasn't a good pitcher, had a crap attitude, and never was dominant on a good day. Extremely lame comparison.
    1. Thrylos's Avatar
      Thrylos -
      Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
      So basically we have two camps. In camp one are people who think Liriano is a good pitcher, on par or better than guys like Sanchez (many of these guys probably though Slowey was a good pitcher, too). And in the other camp are the realists. I guess its probably part of the awesomeness of baseball that the first camp seems bigger.
      Agreed.

      We do have 2 camps:

      The people who think that the Twins need major changes in order to win again and the people who are drinking the Kool-Aid and for them Terry, Gardy and StPaul are the holy Trinity or something.

    1. gunnarthor's Avatar
      gunnarthor -
      Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
      Agreed.

      We do have 2 camps:

      The people who think that the Twins need major changes in order to win again and the people who are drinking the Kool-Aid and for them Terry, Gardy and StPaul are the holy Trinity or something.

      Cute
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Yes, I am drinking the "Sanchez is a better pitcher then Liriano because he has outperformed him in every meaningful statistical measure" kool-aid.
    1. gunnarthor's Avatar
      gunnarthor -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      Yes, I am drinking the "Sanchez is a better pitcher then Liriano because he has outperformed him in every meaningful statistical measure" kool-aid.
      That's the strawberry flavored type. The Gardy/Andy rants are Blueberry.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
      The Gardy/Andy rants are Blueberry.
      Right color, wrong flavor. It's actually the "coolant" flavored kool-aid.
    1. LastOnePicked's Avatar
      LastOnePicked -
      I'm not as bothered by the details of this trade as I am the decision-making process that lead to it. This was the wrong time to trade Liriano -- how many contenders are willing to add a question mark (albeit a powerful one) to a rotation during a pennant drive? The Twins seem to be missing the concept of selling high and buying low. Young and Liriano really should have been dealt when they were more promising. I know, I know, the moves would have been unpopular, but it seems like the doubts from management have been there for both of these players for quite some time. Honestly, I hope Liriano does well, but because it's a within-division trade, if he does do very well it may signal the end of Anderson's or TR's career with the team.
    1. gunnarthor's Avatar
      gunnarthor -
      Quote Originally Posted by LastOnePicked View Post
      I'm not as bothered by the details of this trade as I am the decision-making process that lead to it. This was the wrong time to trade Liriano -- how many contenders are willing to add a question mark (albeit a powerful one) to a rotation during a pennant drive? The Twins seem to be missing the concept of selling high and buying low. Young and Liriano really should have been dealt when they were more promising. I know, I know, the moves would have been unpopular, but it seems like the doubts from management have been there for both of these players for quite some time. Honestly, I hope Liriano does well, but because it's a within-division trade, if he does do very well it may signal the end of Anderson's or TR's career with the team.
      Actually, Souhan suggested just that thing - trading Young and Liriano after the 2010 season. It went over like a lead balloon.
    1. Bark's Lounge's Avatar
      Bark's Lounge -
      We have to be near our rock bottom. If that is the case, isn't the next step treatment?
    1. Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
      Brock Beauchamp -
      Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
      Actually, Souhan suggested just that thing - trading Young and Liriano after the 2010 season. It went over like a lead balloon.
      As it should have. The Twins were coming off a 94 win season.
    1. Jerr's Avatar
      Jerr -
      I like Liriano, but he never turned out to be what we all hoped, an ace.
      No big loss in his leaving, but the guys we got for him......I'll have to wait and see.
      All said, I was at todays game because of him (ticket before the trade) and I'll be there Tuesday because of him.
    1. ThePuck's Avatar
      ThePuck -
      [QUOTE=SpiritofVodkaDave;39482]How do we know the Twins didn't negoiate with Liriano for a new contract?

      Because Ryan said he didn't...ever. He didn't try and Liriano's rep didn't try.
    1. Jim H's Avatar
      Jim H -
      I enjoy John's posts. He is also good at getting reactions, which this and the other Liriano post does in spades. Still, I wish he was more realistic or at least accurate.

      Liriano, over the last 4 years, has been the equivilant of Blackburn. One could make a convincing argument that Blackburn has been better. When both have been healthy, Blackburn has probably been better over the last 4 years.

      So, he is complaining that the Liriano trade netted a return that would have him and most everyone else dancing in the street if the trade had been for Blackburn.

      Now, it will be too bad if Liriano figures it out and he becomes the pitcher that some Twins fans think he could be. There is no way that this is a bad trade based on Liriano's actual production. Even his good stretches haven't actually produced that many wins. He seems to always pitch just well enough to lose.

      Complaining that Ryan didn't get a good return for what has been largely a bad pitcher, is stupid. Even more stupid is trying to guess how valuable fairly young, likely pretty talented players will turn out to be. Ecspecially if you are basing those guesses on Baseball America's rating of a year ago.
    1. The Greatest Poster Alive's Avatar
      The Greatest Poster Alive -
      Been working all weekend but i wanted to nit pick on 2.

      1) Liriano's trade value decreases with every start. Because there is a finite amount of starts a pitcher can make in a year so every start he makes as a twin decreases his value

      2) You don't know what offers they had. Period. I hate it when people say they could have gotten X for player Y. You don't ****ing know.
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