• Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade

    I started making a list of the top 10 things I hate about this trade for today’s Gleeman and the Geek podcast. I’m up to #28.

    (Kill me. Or better yet, add on in the comments section.)

    1. I hate that after waiting out the market so Liriano was the best remaining rental, the Twins traded him after his one terrible start in the last two months and less than 24 hours before a possible redeeming start.

    2. I hate that what the Twins got in return is SO much worse than what other rental pitchers brought back.


    3. I hate that despite that evidence, people will defend Minnesota Twins GM Terry Ryan by saying “we don’t know what offers they had.”

    4. I hate that neither player received was ranked in the top 10 of White Sox prospects by Baseball America, which relies heavily on what the organization thinks of their own prospects.

    5. I hate that since those rankings, neither player has had a particularly strong year.

    6. I hate that the Twins traded with an organization whose farm system is weaker than their own ravaged system.

    7. I hate that the only way I could think this trade made sense was if the Twins knew Liriano was hurt and hiding an injury.

    8. I hate that the Twins didn’t even attempt to negotiate with Liriano.

    9. I hate the Twins traded a high-upside player to division rival without knowing if he was willing or maybe desperate to sign a long-term extension.

    10. I hate that White Sox GM Kenny Williams first reaction must have been “How soon can I hang up this phone?”

    11. I hate that Williams 2nd reaction was likely “Hold it – this is too good. Is there something wrong with Liriano? Is he hurt?”

    12. I hate that Williams 3rd reaction was probably “Meh. Even if he is, who cares? All I’m giving up is Escobar and Hernandez!”

    13. I hate that the last time we thought a trade was almost this bad was when the Twins traded Capps for Ramos. And even then it wasn’t this unanimous. And the Twins stubbornly kept overpaying and bringing Capps back for two years to justify it.

    14. I hate that the last time we had this much complete unanimity on how bad a move by the Twins this is was back when they signed Nick Blackburn to a long-term deal, which also involved loving a low strikeout pitcher way too much.

    15. I hate that Hernandez is such a stereo-typical Twins pitcher – low strikeouts, good control. I hate that the Twin still think this is really the way to go.

    16. I hate that it makes me wonder if Scott Diamond - another low strikeout/great control pitcher with a lot of initial success - is going to end up like Blackburn/Carlos Silva/ Joe Mays sooner rather than later.

    17. I hate that the Twins, rather than walking away with their winnings on guys like this, keep doubling-down until they lose.

    18. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that can’t get on base.

    19. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that likely won’t make the top 10 prospects in their own organization.

    20. I hate that this trade reinforces that the Twins have failed to develop decent middle infielders – even when they trade for them.

    21. I hate that this trade makes me wonder if the Twins inability to develop good middle infielders doesn’t have less to do with their farm system and more to do with their philosophy and scouting.

    22. I hate the Liriano was my Gleeman and the Geek Pickpointz pick of the week, making it possibly the worst pick in the history of the game.

    23. I hate that if this was the best offer, keeping Liriano wasn’t an option.

    24. I hate that Ryan felt the need to dump Liriano for this package while simultaneously praising him for his character in the locker room, bringing into question why he didn’t keep him.

    25. I hate that the most obvious answer to that question might be fiscal. And that implies thatcut-backs could make 2013 even more painful than last year.

    26. I hate that Terry Ryan did exactly the opposite of what he said he was going to do: acquired low-upside players close to the major instead of high-upside players further from the majors.

    27. I hate that this makes me doubt Terry Ryan’s leadership of the Twins.

    28. I hate that I no longer want the Twins to trade for any more “prospects” at the trade deadline.
    This article was originally published in blog: Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade started by John Bonnes
    Comments 139 Comments
    1. DJSim22's Avatar
      DJSim22 -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      I'm not praising Ryan for this trade, I'm just pointing out that it isn't the abortion many are thinking it is. The market sucked, and at the end of the day Liriano was a 5.3 ERA pitcher (5.09 last year), those guys aren't going to bring you back top 100 guys no matter how much you hope they do.

      Until we hear of a specific trade package that Ryan turned down for Span/Willingham etc it's really stupid to bitch about him not trading them at this point. For all we know the teams have been offering C+ prospects for Span thus far. If you show me a report where the Twins turned down Cingrani or Hamilton for Span then I will agree that Ryan blew it.

      I agree that Span needs to be traded at some point, but there is no reason to rush it as he will have plenty of value this off-season and on into next season.
      For all we know TR has been offered two B prospects for Span so far. You can play that game all day.

      Who is to say Span's value will go up next year? A year less on a contract friendly deal, a year older, another year with a possible concussion, and another year we block another OF while we lose 90 games. Do we have to rush a deal right now, no. Is it likely his value will be higher next year? I doubt it.
    1. Thrylos's Avatar
      Thrylos -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      How do we know the Twins didn't negoiate with Liriano for a new contract?
      Unless Ryan lied openly when he said they did not, then we know it from the horse's mouth.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by DJSim22 View Post
      Okay internet tough guy...

      I have yet to hear of any reported attempt to sign Liriano this year either, but that didn't stop you from writing that. Where are your examples, or are you full of ****?

      Have you heard the man speak? Have you seen how he handled his past few trades? He can't live off the A.J. trade forever.
      I said who knows if the Twins tried to resign Liriano at any point in this season. We didn't hear anything that indicated anything either way, other than a few reports last week that the Twins were closet to 100% trading Liriano.

      What past few trades do you speak of? What do you mean "how he handled his past few trades"?
      You realize he wasn't the GM for the Young and Santana trades, right?
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
      Unless Ryan lied openly when he said they did not, then we know it from the horse's mouth.
      Did not see that, either way like I mentioned in another post if the Twins had no desire to keep Liriano around, why not trade him for what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing?

      Hell, I wanted the Twins to bring Liriano back for 2013+, but there were several posters here who didn't want him back (50/50 split).
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by DJSim22 View Post
      For all we know TR has been offered two B prospects for Span so far. You can play that game all day.
      Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming that Ryan has screwed up by not trading Span thus far (which is what you have been doing). People are screaming that Ryan has dropped the ball by not trading Span already, yet haven't produced one report of an offer. Seriously, its just bitching for the sake of bitching.
    1. DJSim22's Avatar
      DJSim22 -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      Yeah, it was just a gut reaction because of a few things:
      1. As fans we ALWAYS want stud players in return.
      2. As Twins fans we know that Liriano still possess the nice ability to blow away batters.
      3. Many of us were guilty (me!) of thinking that Liriano would bring back a nice prospect package.
      4. I had never heard of either of the two prospects we got back.

      But after reading up on these guys it appears one or both could eventually help out our big league club, and at the end of the day we were trading a guy who has posted a 5.31 and 5.09 ERA in the past two seasons, projection is great and all but at the end of the day results matter.

      I still at this moment wish the Twins would have signed Liriano to a 2-3 year deal and I wish they could have fleeced some dumb GM out of some high upside 19 year old. Just because that didn't happen doesn't mean I'm ready to crap all over the orginzation and run Ryan out of town. These past two years have been frustrating but I have hope that Ryan can rebuild this club, its not going to come over night but once we hit the free angency we should have a better idea of his long term plan. Not to mention he still might be able to trade Pavano and Capps before August 31st (plus Span could be traded any minute now as well)

      It's one thing to be dissapointed to lose Liriano for so little at the end of the day, its another thing to use it as some bizzarre justification to fire everyone in the org, but the majority of the people who are saying that have been crying about Ryan's leadership the whole year anyways, even going as so far as to making up reports/sources of him turning down trades that were never offered. Obviously I will sound like a ridiculous homer compared to that garbage, and frankly I am glad I do.
      I never expected stud players in return, but getting guys who are not even top 10 in a crappy minor league system is not accetable. At best we have a mediocre reliever who doesn't miss bats and a utility player whom I would argue is not as good as some we already have in our system. If you are going to trade Liriano for this type of package, you might as well find another team with a deeper system and you might as well get two pitchers or a corner infielder. The utility guy makes little sense when we have plenty of these type of guys already in the system who are more highly regarded.
    1. johnnydakota's Avatar
      johnnydakota -
      Quote Originally Posted by snepp View Post
      I read the entire WSI forum thread last night (whitesoxinteractive), their initial reaction was generally positive, and they're a pretty high-strung bunch on that board.
      or maybe he has no future and the white soxs wanted the real players to play every day and develope?????
    1. Thrylos's Avatar
      Thrylos -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      Did not see that, either way like I mentioned in another post if the Twins had no desire to keep Liriano around, why not trade him for what you can get instead of letting him walk for nothing?

      Hell, I wanted the Twins to bring Liriano back for 2013+, but there were several posters here who didn't want him back (50/50 split).

      I think that the Twins had no chance of re-signing Liriano after this season and the best that they could have done would have been to give him a qualifying offer and get a supplementary pick. On the other hand, I think that an MLB-ready (albeit end of the rotation) Lefty starter and an MLB-ready defensive whiz are probably better than most of Terry Ryan's supplementary draft picks historically.

      That said, the reasons I dislike this trade are:

      a. I think that they could have done better, if you look at what other "rental pitchers" brought (e.g. the Marlins-Tigers trade)
      b. I think that Liriano is a better pitcher than he had shown with the Twins' coaching and he might flourish elsewhere. Unfortunately, they traded him in the division. If they traded him to the Pirates, I would have no problem with that.


      Those are my 2 major objections. And I really think that it is a shame that Liriano did not do better lately with the Twins and the coaches and manager do share some of the blame for this...
    1. Dilligaf69's Avatar
      Dilligaf69 -
      Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
      Yep, pretty much all of that.


      Isn't it possible Liriano could've had another bad outing today and thus lowered even more his trade value, or even maybe got hurt?? then we would here that we should've traded him earlier when he was going good. The fact is there is probably no way we would be satisfied and your right we as always have no idea what was being offered by other teams we just assume it was better then this. Maybe the market for a talented but extremely enigmatic pitcher wasn't as high as we as Twins fans hoped. The bottom line is it's Liriano's fault his value wasn't s high as it should be, he gets rattled too easily on the mound when things are going south on him. He's so maddingly inconsistent that he probably scared off other suitors not willing to give up much then a couple mid level prospects.
    1. Obie's Avatar
      Obie -
      "I hate the Twins traded a high-upside player to division rival without knowing if he was willing or maybe desperate to sign a long-term extension."

      I guess you missed the news that he blew out his elbow five years ago and has been wildly inconsistent and consistently wild and mediocre since.
    1. drivlikejehu's Avatar
      drivlikejehu -
      Clubs can pick up players like Escobar and Hernandez off the waiver wire. They have almost no value at all. If it's true that Liriano had no value in the eyes of every other MLB team, then just keep him and see how he does down the stretch. If he pitches well then the qualifying offer is a consideration.

      This reminds me of the Santana deal, in that the Twins decided they had to trade someone and thus accepted a joke offer, when in fact standing pat was a perfectly viable option.

      It's just hard for me to believe that TR didn't even get one offer that included an actual prospect. Not even a good prospect, but maybe a 20 year old with some small possibility of upside. As opposed to AAAA players that can be acquired at any time without much difficulty.
    1. notoriousgod71's Avatar
      notoriousgod71 -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      How does Sanchez solve anything moving forward though?
      It doesn't but just pointing out both teams got a better return for their **** than we did ours.
    1. Obie's Avatar
      Obie -
      "I started making a list of the top 10 things I hate about this trade for today’s Gleeman and the Geek podcast. I’m up to #28."

      Try breathing into a paper bag.
    1. snepp's Avatar
      snepp -
      Quote Originally Posted by Obie View Post
      Try breathing into a paper bag.
      And if that doesn't work, you can always vomit in it.
    1. one_eyed_jack's Avatar
      one_eyed_jack -
      I still don't understand why so many are so convinced that TR could have gotten more than he did.

      Again, we're talking about a rental of a guy who got relegated to the bullpen a couple of months ago because he was getting shelled every single start. Why would anyone give up anything of value for a starting pitcher who was so bad earlier in the year that he couldn't hold on to is spot in the worst rotation in baseball?

      Even dumbest of MLB front offices is going to know better than to value a guy based on a good month or two while ignoring the rest of his recent body of work.

      Maybe it's because he went to the White Sox, but I dont' see why that's such a big deal. Look at the standings. We ain't catching them. And the additional of Frankie is just as likely to torpedo the Whities chances of getting to the postseason than it is strengthen them.
    1. Thrylos's Avatar
      Thrylos -
      Quote Originally Posted by one_eyed_jack View Post
      I still don't understand why so many are so convinced that TR could have gotten more than he did..
      Did you see what the Marlins got from Detroit for Sanchez and a futility infielder?
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Sanchez is a significantly better pitcher then Liriano and infante is one of the better hitting MI in baseball this year. Also the Tigers are apparently planning on extending Sanchez long term and were desperate for MI help. Liriano is a guy who has a 5.25 ERA over his last 220 IP
    1. Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
      Brock Beauchamp -
      Quote Originally Posted by thrylos98 View Post
      Did you see what the Marlins got from Detroit for Sanchez and a futility infielder?
      Sanchez is far and away a superior pitcher to Liriano and the Tigers will almost surely try to extend him. Sanchez has almost no question marks surrounding him while Liriano is rife with questions.
    1. Thrylos's Avatar
      Thrylos -
      Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
      Sanchez is far and away a superior pitcher to Liriano and the Tigers will almost surely try to extend him. Sanchez has almost no question marks surrounding him while Liriano is rife with questions.

      I bet Liriano does better than Sanchez the rest of the year. Sanchez' first ever AL start bombed. He is a pitch to contact guy and these type of guys might work ok in the NL. Not the AL.
    1. beckmt's Avatar
      beckmt -
      Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
      Sanchez is far and away a superior pitcher to Liriano and the Tigers will almost surely try to extend him. Sanchez has almost no question marks surrounding him while Liriano is rife with questions.
      Agreed and Turner was not a proven quanitity and had not done anything great at the major league level. Liriano is a two month rental. Escobar will give the Twins the ability to be a utlity infielder and not have to overpay Castilla for next year. I would rather have two options for that role rather than banking on one. Hernandez will help the Rochester ballclub in the short term. Maybe Bobby Cuellar will find a way to make him better. More interesting will be how Liriano and Blackburn do the rest of this year, and if the Twins should part ways with Rich Anderson and promote Bobby Cuellar.
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