• Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade

    I started making a list of the top 10 things I hate about this trade for today’s Gleeman and the Geek podcast. I’m up to #28.

    (Kill me. Or better yet, add on in the comments section.)

    1. I hate that after waiting out the market so Liriano was the best remaining rental, the Twins traded him after his one terrible start in the last two months and less than 24 hours before a possible redeeming start.

    2. I hate that what the Twins got in return is SO much worse than what other rental pitchers brought back.


    3. I hate that despite that evidence, people will defend Minnesota Twins GM Terry Ryan by saying “we don’t know what offers they had.”

    4. I hate that neither player received was ranked in the top 10 of White Sox prospects by Baseball America, which relies heavily on what the organization thinks of their own prospects.

    5. I hate that since those rankings, neither player has had a particularly strong year.

    6. I hate that the Twins traded with an organization whose farm system is weaker than their own ravaged system.

    7. I hate that the only way I could think this trade made sense was if the Twins knew Liriano was hurt and hiding an injury.

    8. I hate that the Twins didn’t even attempt to negotiate with Liriano.

    9. I hate the Twins traded a high-upside player to division rival without knowing if he was willing or maybe desperate to sign a long-term extension.

    10. I hate that White Sox GM Kenny Williams first reaction must have been “How soon can I hang up this phone?”

    11. I hate that Williams 2nd reaction was likely “Hold it – this is too good. Is there something wrong with Liriano? Is he hurt?”

    12. I hate that Williams 3rd reaction was probably “Meh. Even if he is, who cares? All I’m giving up is Escobar and Hernandez!”

    13. I hate that the last time we thought a trade was almost this bad was when the Twins traded Capps for Ramos. And even then it wasn’t this unanimous. And the Twins stubbornly kept overpaying and bringing Capps back for two years to justify it.

    14. I hate that the last time we had this much complete unanimity on how bad a move by the Twins this is was back when they signed Nick Blackburn to a long-term deal, which also involved loving a low strikeout pitcher way too much.

    15. I hate that Hernandez is such a stereo-typical Twins pitcher – low strikeouts, good control. I hate that the Twin still think this is really the way to go.

    16. I hate that it makes me wonder if Scott Diamond - another low strikeout/great control pitcher with a lot of initial success - is going to end up like Blackburn/Carlos Silva/ Joe Mays sooner rather than later.

    17. I hate that the Twins, rather than walking away with their winnings on guys like this, keep doubling-down until they lose.

    18. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that can’t get on base.

    19. I hate that the Twins acquired a middle infielder that likely won’t make the top 10 prospects in their own organization.

    20. I hate that this trade reinforces that the Twins have failed to develop decent middle infielders – even when they trade for them.

    21. I hate that this trade makes me wonder if the Twins inability to develop good middle infielders doesn’t have less to do with their farm system and more to do with their philosophy and scouting.

    22. I hate the Liriano was my Gleeman and the Geek Pickpointz pick of the week, making it possibly the worst pick in the history of the game.

    23. I hate that if this was the best offer, keeping Liriano wasn’t an option.

    24. I hate that Ryan felt the need to dump Liriano for this package while simultaneously praising him for his character in the locker room, bringing into question why he didn’t keep him.

    25. I hate that the most obvious answer to that question might be fiscal. And that implies thatcut-backs could make 2013 even more painful than last year.

    26. I hate that Terry Ryan did exactly the opposite of what he said he was going to do: acquired low-upside players close to the major instead of high-upside players further from the majors.

    27. I hate that this makes me doubt Terry Ryan’s leadership of the Twins.

    28. I hate that I no longer want the Twins to trade for any more “prospects” at the trade deadline.
    This article was originally published in blog: Ten Things I HATE About The Liriano Trade started by John Bonnes
    Comments 139 Comments
    1. Vervehound's Avatar
      Vervehound -
      Quote Originally Posted by gunnarthor View Post
      I agree with jorgen. I was hoping the Twins would get someone else's reclamation project but I think a lot of people need to realize how bad Liriano's been. Since 2008, he's had a 89 ERA+ and about 4 WAR, Blackburn has had a 87 ERA+ (in many more innings) and about 3.5 WAR. Liriano has had some nice moments but most pitchers do. He's had a ton of disaster starts and we weren't going to get much for a player like that.
      really good underrated point - if you're going to give up upside, try to get upside back. one reclamation project for another.
    1. powrwrap's Avatar
      powrwrap -
      I hate that I was right when I predicted the type of players the Twins would get for Liriano.

      http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php...ll=1#post32407
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by Vervehound View Post
      really good underrated point - if you're going to give up upside, try to get upside back. one reclamation project for another.
      That's why I sorta wish the Orioles would have went after Liriano, a guy like Tillman would have been intriguing at least. But did the White Sox have anyone that really fit that bill?
    1. chopper0080's Avatar
      chopper0080 -
      All I can think is that the Twins probably got as good of value as they could for Liriano and that speaks more to the level of player Liriano as been over the ineptitude of the Twins front office.
    1. tobynotjason's Avatar
      tobynotjason -
      He's not hurt, dude.

      The pitch f/x numbers from his last start show that his velo was still at it's post-TJ peak and his sinker had, in fact, EPIC levels of sink. In fact, it may have been TOO lively, leading him to throw straight 4-seamers in order to throw strikes, which he located poorly and for which he was punished.

      His slider topped out at 89. It had great movement numbers too. His stuff is fine, ergo his arm is fine.

      There is NO explanation other than that the Twins FO are utterly incompetent dinosaurs. How they thought 2 piles of crap was preferable to running him out for a shot at 2 piles of semi-exciting vs. nada is beyond me.
    1. savvyspy's Avatar
      savvyspy -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      I'd also love for someone to point out the last time someone traded a 28 year old 5+ ERA pitcher(2 years in a row) for anything of substantial value in the past.
      Maybe the front office waiting until these assets have no trade value before exploring the trade market is the big issue.
    1. Brock Beauchamp's Avatar
      Brock Beauchamp -
      Quote Originally Posted by savvyspy View Post
      Maybe the front office waiting until these assets have no trade value before exploring the trade market is the big issue.
      When should the Twins have dealt Liriano to get value from him? I keep hearing people say this but it doesn't make any sense.

      2010 - Liriano had best full season of career. Twins were 94 win team.
      2011 - Liriano is awful. Has no value.
      2012 - Liriano is awful. Pitches better down the stretch. Has marginal value at deadline.
    1. tobynotjason's Avatar
      tobynotjason -
      Quote Originally Posted by rocketpig View Post
      2012 - Liriano is awful. Pitches better down the stretch. Has marginal value at deadline.
      He had 6 awful starts to begin the year vs. 11 starts in his good run, so really, he was good more than he was awful.

      The thing is, Pitch F/X data proves beyond any doubt that his stuff was 'nother class beginning 5.30.2012. It's actually as good as it's ever been post-TJ surgery. (That is, it is incontestable that he is throwing all pitches harder with better movement.) So it's really not that he's been awful with a little good. He's been throwing world-beating stuff (TOTALLY unlike what he threw in early 2012 and in 2011) that he's at times struggled to command. That's objective reality, not dicknbert "narrative". That is, this isn't how he's "always been". This is how he's been this year, since the the end of May, period. His stuff wasn't nearly as good in 2011. It wasn't even quite as good in 2010.

      Then he gets traded FOR NOTHING after a clunker, just before a shot at redemption, AND just before the deadline would have forced put up or shut up offers. That's why this is so maddening.
    1. ltwedt's Avatar
      ltwedt -
      I hate that the Twins are such a mess on the field - but worse, I hate that they are a bigger mess in the FO!
    1. Teflon's Avatar
      Teflon -
      Maybe we're really using this trade to evaluate Don Cooper as a pitching coach prospect for next year.
    1. gunnarthor's Avatar
      gunnarthor -
      Quote Originally Posted by tobynotjason View Post
      He had 6 awful starts to begin the year vs. 11 starts in his good run, so really, he was good more than he was awful.

      The thing is, Pitch F/X data proves beyond any doubt that his stuff was 'nother class beginning 5.30.2012. It's actually as good as it's ever been post-TJ surgery. (That is, it is incontestable that he is throwing all pitches harder with better movement.) So it's really not that he's been awful with a little good. He's been throwing world-beating stuff (TOTALLY unlike what he threw in early 2012 and in 2011) that he's at times struggled to command. That's objective reality, not dicknbert "narrative". That is, this isn't how he's "always been". This is how he's been this year, since the the end of May, period. His stuff wasn't nearly as good in 2011. It wasn't even quite as good in 2010.

      Then he gets traded FOR NOTHING after a clunker, just before a shot at redemption, AND just before the deadline would have forced put up or shut up offers. That's why this is so maddening.
      In that 11 'good' run, he had 3 clunkers. The apologizing for Liriano really has gotten out of hand. Over the years we've heard things like the Twins pushed him too hard coming back from injury, Gardy/Andy made him a bad pitcher, the defense let him down, he's unlucky, the Twins are playing with his mind. It's never his fault. He's 28. He's not a prospect anymore, he should be in his prime.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by tobynotjason View Post
      He had 6 awful starts to begin the year vs. 11 starts in his good run, so really, he was good more than he was awful.
      His 11th start in that "good" run resulted in 2.2 IP, 7H, 7 ER, 3 HR. That goes in the "good" column?
      His 11 starts were certainly better then his first 6 starts, but those 11 starts produced a 3.68 ERA. Hardly the world beater you proclaimed.
    1. DPJ's Avatar
      DPJ -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      His 11th start in that "good" run resulted in 2.2 IP, 7H, 7 ER, 3 HR. That goes in the "good" column?
      His 11 starts were certainly better then his first 6 starts, but those 11 starts produced a 3.68 ERA. Hardly the world beater you proclaimed.
      Well 10 of his 11 starers were good.

      See how meaningless cherry-picking numbers are Dave?
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
      Well 10 of his 11 starers were good.

      See how meaningless cherry-picking numbers are Dave?
      5.1 IP 4 ER 4 BB is good?
      5.2 IP 4 ER 3BB is good?
    1. DPJ's Avatar
      DPJ -
      Quote Originally Posted by SpiritofVodkaDave View Post
      5.1 IP 4 ER 4 BB is good?
      5.2 IP 4 ER 3BB is good?
      Blackie would kill for those lines.
    1. SpiritofVodkaDave's Avatar
      SpiritofVodkaDave -
      Quote Originally Posted by DPJ View Post
      Blackie would kill for those lines.
      I assume this is as close as you come to admiting you were mistaken.

      I will take it.
    1. twinzgrl's Avatar
      twinzgrl -
      Many scouts looked at Frankie, but obviously few decided to make an offer. His inconsistency is legendary.

      I HATE that my team has sucked for two years and that nothing is being done to address the main issue--STARTING PITCHING. Marquis doesn't count.
    1. mikeee's Avatar
      mikeee -
      Liriano is worth nothing without Butera.
    1. Fire Dan Gladden's Avatar
      Fire Dan Gladden -
      Fire Terry Ryan for making this trade!!!

      no wait...

      Fire Rick Anderson for not getting more out of Liriano!!!

      that doesn't work either...

      Contract the Twins because they have been bad for about 265 games and they have a whiney fan base with a short term memory!!!

      There we go.
    1. TheLeviathan's Avatar
      TheLeviathan -
      God damn does this deserve to be reposted. It's like an antidote for the koolaid:

      I agree with jorgen. I was hoping the Twins would get someone else's reclamation project but I think a lot of people need to realize how bad Liriano's been. Since 2008, he's had a 89 ERA+ and about 4 WAR, Blackburn has had a 87 ERA+ (in many more innings) and about 3.5 WAR. Liriano has had some nice moments but most pitchers do. He's had a ton of disaster starts and we weren't going to get much for a player like that.
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