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  • What in the Hell is a Pedro Florimon?

    "What in the hell is a Pedro Florimon?" -- professional baseball writer, doing research on projected starting lineups

    — Grant Brisbee (@mccoveychron) January 25, 2013

    The above tweet from the wise-cracking and hilarious SB Nation scribe Grant Brisbee was undoubtedly written after he glanced over projected starting lineups across the majors and did a triple-take when he came to Minnesota's shortstop position.

    He's hardly the first. I've had multiple national baseball writers contact me this offseason asking some variation of, "The Twins aren't really going to give this guy a starting job, are they?"

    All I can do is shrug. Florimon's career numbers suggest he is not a major-league caliber player, and he certainly didn't look the part last year, but Terry Ryan has treated shortstop as a non-concern this winter. Possibly the GM is open to trying Brian Dozier there again, or considers Jamey Carroll an acceptable fallback, but Ryan hasn't even openly pondered bringing in someone to compete at the position. He's repeatedly talked about doing so with Trevor Plouffe at third.

    It's not clear what Florimon has done to earn this billing. He was waived by a 93-loss Orioles team after the 2011 season, and then passed on by 29 organizations when the Twins claimed him and outrighted him from their 40-man roster. He went on to up sub par numbers between Double-A and Triple-A, striking out at a Gomez-esque 25 percent rate, and then came up and played poorly with the Twins for a couple months.

    Pedro Florimon swings for the Minnesota Twins

    At TwinsFest over the weekend, Ryan told a media luncheon that Florimon is "the athlete you look for" at shortstop. That may very well be true, and ostensibly the hope is that he'll develop as he ages into his prime and become a useful long-term cog on this rebuilding roster.

    But with Florimon, that really is a stretch. He's 26 and he's totaled over 3,000 professional plate appearances. He has established himself very firmly at the plate as a strikeout machine with minimal power and in the field as a flashy, skillful defender who makes a ton of mistakes.

    In order to provide meaningful value, he'll need to offer enough on defense to make up for all the outs he's likely to give away on offense. That's a tall order. He might be the biggest long shot the Twins have taken at the position since Cristian Guzman's departure, and that's saying something.
    This article was originally published in blog: What in the Hell is a Pedro Florimon? started by Nick Nelson
    Comments 101 Comments
    1. FrodaddyG's Avatar
      FrodaddyG -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      It's also not 2003to anymore. There is a serious shortage of high quality SSs in baseball right now. I appreciate you mentioning several hall of famers but those are relatively rare and hard to acquire.
      But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!
    1. jokin's Avatar
      jokin -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

      I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."
      Not many left, but there sure were a lot more available back in November and it's obvious that because Ryan thought he'd done his job in the MI in the 2012 acquisitions of Carroll, Florimon and Escobar, it never occurred to him to poke around for an offseason acquisition via trade.

      Are there still superior options available? Why yes, yes there are: Ranking the Top Players Still Available This Winter at Each Position | Bleacher Report

      Will there be superior potential waiver wire pickups? Likely.
    1. jokin's Avatar
      jokin -
      Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
      But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!
      That one still leaves a mark amongst the apologists...
    1. Nick Nelson's Avatar
      Nick Nelson -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      People realize SS is a pretty difficult position to fill right? There aren't clearly better players sitting on the free agent market or on waivers or any other means that have been mentioned in this thread.

      I imagine Terry Ryan would gladly welcome a better SS but it is a little more complicated than saying "let's get a better shortstop."
      The Twins haven’t had a steady shortstop remain in place for two years since Guzman left in 2004. I understand that there’s a shortage of quality players at the position but that’s ridiculous and unacceptable. The vast majority of other teams in the league either have a solid fixture at SS or they have a guy in place who has a good chance to become one.

      What really bothers me is that the Twins don’t even seem to view their perpetual ineptitude at this crucially important position as a problem, because you have Terry Ryan claiming they’ve been “pretty good” there in seven of the last nine years and you’ve got them lining up Pedro Florimon as if he’ll be anything more than another failed stopgap that leaves them right back where they started.
    1. drjim's Avatar
      drjim -
      Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
      Not many left, but there sure were a lot more available back in November and it's obvious that because Ryan thought he'd done his job in the MI in the 2012 acquisitions of Carroll, Florimon and Escobar, it never occurred to him to poke around for an offseason acquisition via trade.

      Are there still superior options available? Why yes, yes there are: Ranking the Top Players Still Available This Winter at Each Position | Bleacher Report

      Will there be superior potential waiver wire pickups? Likely.
      I'm quite aware of who was available as a SS this offseason. I'm not convinced any of them are clearly upgrades over Carroll.

      As far as trades are concerned I can only think of five that moved. Reyes which took a boatload, Y Escobar with questionable makeup, and the three that went Arizona in trades that were regarded as bad for Arizona. Is that your solution?
    1. drjim's Avatar
      drjim -
      Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
      But ones that are acceptable both offensively and defensively are readily available for the low, low price of one Jim Hoey!
      Terrible trade and I thought so at the time. But it has little to do with Terry Ryan or options available this offseason.
    1. jokin's Avatar
      jokin -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      I'm quite aware of who was available as a SS this offseason. I'm not convinced any of them are clearly upgrades over Carroll.

      As far as trades are concerned I can only think of five that moved. Reyes which took a boatload, Y Escobar with questionable makeup, and the three that went Arizona in trades that were regarded as bad for Arizona. Is that your solution?
      Just to name 2 off the top of my head, Texas and Boston are in major trading/rebuilding mode and have a surplus of MI major leaguers and solid to great prospects.
    1. FrodaddyG's Avatar
      FrodaddyG -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      Terrible trade and I thought so at the time. But it has little to do with Terry Ryan or options available this offseason.
      No, but the current GM was still involved in an advisory capacity at the time, and no doubt had a fair input into that decision as it was happening. Smith absolutely deserves the blame for the final calls, but it isn't like Ryan was in a coma during his tenure. He was still around and acting as a "senior advisor", which would lead me to surmise that he was giving a fair portion of the "advice" that Smith got for many of the less-than-loved moves during his run of ineptitude.
    1. drjim's Avatar
      drjim -
      Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
      The Twins haven’t had a steady shortstop remain in place for two years since Guzman left in 2004. I understand that there’s a shortage of quality players at the position but that’s ridiculous and unacceptable. The vast majority of other teams in the league either have a solid fixture at SS or they have a guy in place who has a good chance to become one.

      What really bothers me is that the Twins don’t even seem to view their perpetual ineptitude at this crucially important position as a problem, because you have Terry Ryan claiming they’ve been “pretty good” there in seven of the last nine years and you’ve got them lining up Pedro Florimon as if he’ll be anything more than another failed stopgap that leaves them right back where they started.
      I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.
    1. drjim's Avatar
      drjim -
      Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
      Just to name 2 off the top of my head, Texas and Boston are in major trading/rebuilding mode and have a surplus of MI major leaguers and solid to great prospects.
      Great plan I'm on board! Remind me again who the Twins could trade to get said prospects.
    1. jokin's Avatar
      jokin -
      Quote Originally Posted by FrodaddyG View Post
      No, but the current GM was still involved in an advisory capacity at the time, and no doubt had a fair input into that decision as it was happening. Smith absolutely deserves the blame for the final calls, but it isn't like Ryan was in a coma during his tenure. He was still around and acting as a "senior advisor", which would lead me to surmise that he was giving a fair portion of the "advice" that Smith got for many of the less-than-loved moves during his run of ineptitude.
      Yes, but it begs the question of: how are we sure that he isn't in a coma now?
    1. jokin's Avatar
      jokin -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      Great plan I'm on board! Remind me again who the Twins could trade to get said prospects.
      Uhhh, you can't be serious.
    1. TheLeviathan's Avatar
      TheLeviathan -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.
      No one expects them to have Tulowitski. It'd be nice, but that isn't the expectation. How about .650 OPS as a starting point? Can't count Carroll either, guy doesn't have the range to be an everyday SS. So the bar being set is pretty damn low and the team is still failing to meet it.
    1. Boom Boom's Avatar
      Boom Boom -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.
      He didn't say have a solution in place, he said have had a solution in place at some point since 2004. Subtle difference.
    1. drjim's Avatar
      drjim -
      Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
      Uhhh, you can't be serious.
      Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?
    1. Nick Nelson's Avatar
      Nick Nelson -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      I appreciate the hyperbole but would question your assertion that the "vast majority of teams" have a solution in place right now or even in the timeframe mentioned.
      Looking around the AL, I see two other teams (SEA, OAK) without a decent SS locked in. Oakland's top prospect is a shortstop (Addison Russell) and Seattle's got a couple in their top 10. There is no team that has handled the position as poorly as the Twins and it isn't even close.
    1. Dance with Disco Dan's Avatar
      Dance with Disco Dan -
      Quote Originally Posted by drjim View Post
      Actually I am. I can't conceive of a package that would get a Texas SS or Bogaerts (who isn't ready anyway). Iglesias might be available but will be expensive and doesn't really have a bat to make one forget Florimon. Am I forgetting someone?
      You are right about the Rangers. They refused to put Andrus or Profar into any Upton deal this off-season. The current plan is to put one of those players in a Stanton or Price deal at the trade deadline or next off-season. I am not sure what basket of prospects the Twins could offer to get any Rangers interest. Something along the lines of "Pick any 4" which is not a rational move for an rebuilding team.
    1. jokin's Avatar
      jokin -
      Quote Originally Posted by Dance with Disco Dan View Post
      You are right about the Rangers. They refused to put Andrus or Profar into any Upton deal this off-season. The current plan is to put one of those players in a Stanton or Price deal at the trade deadline or next off-season. I am not sure what basket of prospects the Twins could offer to get any Rangers interest. Something along the lines of "Pick any 4" which is not a rational move for an rebuilding team.
      The Rangers were gobsmacked in 2012, during and after the close of the season with the defections and lack of replaceable asset additions., definitely ripe for making a significant move.

      Actually, for a rebuilding team any rational offer trading at positions of depth and unloading PR splash-worthy veterans who won't necessarily be part of the next era of a returned competitiveness was a perfect recipe for working out a franchise-direction changing deal that might have presented a Win-Win scenario for both clubs.
    1. jokin's Avatar
      jokin -
      Quote Originally Posted by Nick Nelson View Post
      Looking around the AL, I see two other teams (SEA, OAK) without a decent SS locked in. Oakland's top prospect is a shortstop (Addison Russell) and Seattle's got a couple in their top 10. There is no team that has handled the position as poorly as the Twins and it isn't even close.
      This.

      And it's scary how much of NN fanboy I'm becoming.
    1. drjim's Avatar
      drjim -
      Quote Originally Posted by jokin View Post
      The Rangers were gobsmacked in 2012, during and after the close of the season with the defections and lack of replaceable asset additions., definitely ripe for making a significant move.

      Actually, for a rebuilding team any rational offer trading at positions of depth and unloading PR splash-worthy veterans who won't necessarily be part of the next era of a returned competitiveness was a perfect recipe for working out a franchise-direction changing deal that might have presented a Win-Win scenario for both clubs.
      Sure. But no combination of veterans on the Twins could get one of those prospects.
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