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Old school - sure to make a lot of you mad

Posted by mikelink45 , 23 October 2020 · 1,752 views

sacrifice stolen base
Old school - sure to make a lot of you mad I had an idea. What if someone got a hit, stole second - maybe third and someone else got a hit and they scored?

In new school does that not count?

What if someone got a hit, someone bunted and then a single brought them home? Does that not mean that the run scores?

Do I have to wait for a HR? Should I look for a K instead of a sacrifice?

Do I have to fire up the computer. What to do? No HR? We cannot score that way. We need HRs without runners on base because analytics say that is really the cool new way to do it.
Let's eliminate the sacrifice, the bunt, the stolen base - I know they worked for 150 years but they did not have computers.

Mookie Betts looks great, but what is he doing stealing two bases?

Why would we hit to the weakness of a shift when we can score a high exit velocity on the ball we hit for an out? Why go the other way when we can get a launch angle? Doesn't exit velocity score us more points? Doesn't launch angle get us an extra mention on Sports Center?

Don't we get more runs for a HR with more distance?

What is it with the old school. Get a hit. Advance a base. Score. So boring.

And then there are RBIs - who cares. No one is getting a hit other than a HR anyway so why worry about a batter who can actually bring that baserunner to home plate? Runs, RBIs, Batting average - so yesterday.

And then there is pitching. We should all throw 100 mph because the batters can never adjust to that! Have them hit into a DP - what are you talking about it will impact my K/BB rate. The ERA is so old school lets just worry about K/HR.

And starting pitchers who go into the later innings - why? So what if we need 43 RP to handle all the extra innings. We do not need Spahn, Marichal, Mathewson - they are old school. Lets just have 9 pitchers per game per team. Boy is that fun. No saves, no complete games, no dominating Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson. Let's have a lot of Duffeys, Romos, Aaron Bummers - who? Yup. No more pitchers in the HOF. Who needs them?

And, by the way, no more fans in the stands. Not because there is Covid, but because the game is getting so damned boring.

As an addendum - game three of the WS - the Dodgers had long balls, but they also scored on singles, they had a bunt for a run, and they stole bases. When you blend old school with some new maybe the game can get fun again.

Game 4 - Tampa Bay ties the series. Yes they got HRs, but a single and an error won the game. By putting the ball in play so many things can happen. It went for a single, it was dropped by the centerfielder and then the catcher - errors seldom happen on a K.

Game 6 - Kevin Cash proved what I hate - Snell was upset and should be. He is an Ace and he was ready to be Jack Morris but the damn team policy removed the human element and the Rays deserved to lose.

  • Longdistancetwins, Platoon, ToddlerHarmon and 1 other like this



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tony&rodney
Oct 24 2020 08:13 PM

Was Harmon Killebrew the ultimate dream for analytical baseball?

What about Joe Mauer?

    • mikelink45 and Platoon like this

The strikeout thing puzzles me. We look for pitchers who can rack up the K’s as it’s an important metric in pitching. 
 

At the same time we minimize the impact that strike outs do vs the chance that the hitter may hit one over the fence. (See Sano, Miguel). When your middle of the order hitters are prone to strike out at least a third of the time, is simply has to impact the teams production. 
 

There is nothing inherently wrong with power. It has its place. But thinking it’s an end all on offense is oversimplifying baseball. There are times and places for the other aspects of the game. Right now so many hitters (and coaches) are so invested in the long ball that players without the ability to be a consistent HR threat are still trying to jack one. With the often expected results. Ran down on the track, or more likely the catcher tossing the ball to the third baseman! 

    • mikelink45 and DocBauer like this

I understand and empathize with several of your frustrations. I think baseball needs to do something to increase balls in play and more hits. The three true outcome era isn't exactly thrilling baseball to watch. 

On the other hand, what exactly are hitters supposed to do these days? Hitting in the MLB hasn't been this difficult since the dead ball era. It was rare for a pitcher in the past to throw 95-100 MPH. Today, half of the pitching staff is capable of throwing that velocity. Pitchers are able to throw 99 MPH sinkers and 92 MPH sliders from the exact same arm slot. No wonder why players are selling out for the home run... 

So it's easier said than done to say slap the ball the other way, or hit it where they ain't. How do they fix this? Maybe they need to use analytics to find out the reaction time players had in the past with upper 80's fastballs and move the mound back to give the hitters a chance. Maybe they need to ban the shift. I don't know... But something needs to be done to get more excitement in the game. 

 

    • mikelink45, Platoon and ToddlerHarmon like this

 

I understand and empathize with several of your frustrations. I think baseball needs to do something to increase balls in play and more hits. The three true outcome era isn't exactly thrilling baseball to watch. 

On the other hand, what exactly are hitters supposed to do these days? Hitting in the MLB hasn't been this difficult since the dead ball era. It was rare for a pitcher in the past to throw 95-100 MPH. Today, half of the pitching staff is capable of throwing that velocity. Pitchers are able to throw 99 MPH sinkers and 92 MPH sliders from the exact same arm slot. No wonder why players are selling out for the home run... 

So it's easier said than done to say slap the ball the other way, or hit it where they ain't. How do they fix this? Maybe they need to use analytics to find out the reaction time players had in the past with upper 80's fastballs and move the mound back to give the hitters a chance. Maybe they need to ban the shift. I don't know... But something needs to be done to get more excitement in the game. 

 

Thanks for the note - watching the Dodgers get it done with both singles and HRs is exciting - just like Mookie stealing bases and moving around.The Dodgers have forced errors by being aggressive and so have the Rays.In their last win the Rays took to small ball and Phillips hit was 82 MPH - a ball does not have to have a massive exit velocity.We even saw a sacrifice bunt for a run in one game.

 

I am a big fan of Arraez and I think his small ball makes a difference.I think ownerships statements after the playoff loss hint at getting some guys on base and moving runners along.I hope so.

 

I even see statements on ESPN and Athletic hinting that the three outcomes are creating boring games.Since MLB wants fans in the stands shorter games with more action is what they need to find.  

 

The 100 mph pitch is hittable by mlb batters if they want to adjust - we see it all the time and that is about to level out.How much can an arm produce?

    • Jack likes this

 

Thanks for the note - watching the Dodgers get it done with both singles and HRs is exciting - just like Mookie stealing bases and moving around.The Dodgers have forced errors by being aggressive and so have the Rays.In their last win the Rays took to small ball and Phillips hit was 82 MPH - a ball does not have to have a massive exit velocity.We even saw a sacrifice bunt for a run in one game.

 

I am a big fan of Arraez and I think his small ball makes a difference.I think ownerships statements after the playoff loss hint at getting some guys on base and moving runners along.I hope so.

 

I even see statements on ESPN and Athletic hinting that the three outcomes are creating boring games.Since MLB wants fans in the stands shorter games with more action is what they need to find.  

 

The 100 mph pitch is hittable by mlb batters if they want to adjust - we see it all the time and that is about to level out.How much can an arm produce?

Mixing small ball with 3 true outcomes makes for a more exciting ball game. It just doesn't happen enough. The Rays this postseason are hitting .214 as a team. The Dodgers are hitting .258. When the very best teams are unable to secure a hit 3 out of 4 times, there's a problem. 

 

I think you're really overestimating batters adjusting to 100 MPH pitches. There's almost no reaction time available to decide whether the player is going to swing for the fences or slap a single to the opposite field. That's why I was talking about moving the pitcher's mound back to give the hitters a chance at making contact. 

    • mikelink45 and Platoon like this

Interesting take on the state of the game. It would take some doing to reinstitute a small ball/old school approach as the development process for many aspiring major leaguers focuses on launch angles and pulling the ball, which result in more home runs, strike outs and defensive shifts. All things adding to your negative view of the state of the game.

 

Time for a counter-revolution?

    • mikelink45 likes this
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tony&rodney
Oct 26 2020 08:22 PM

The twenty-eight player roster was a bad idea from day one, just an excuse to add more pitching which naturally tilted the game towards length and more use of relief pitchers. Perhaps some changes are needed. A shift in how the injured list is used, keeping it at 15 days from when the player is placed on the list and not back dated is one suggestion. Another suggestion is to reduce the number of options a player has in terms of being sent back to the minors. If you need to keep a player for 21 days and cannot call them back up for 30 days there would be less shifting of players and maybe more concern for the welfare of the players as well.The actual use of a time clock on pitchers/batters staying in the box would help. Twenty seconds is enough, even with runners on base. Every player in baseball today played with those rules their entire lives until MLB. The use of cards in helmets/hats isn't necessary either. If another team steals the signs so be it. If there is usage of technology for stealing signs and proof, a 162 game ban should work. All of the preparation can take place before the game- let some of the human element return. 

Like I stated on another post, diehard fans will always tune in but a decline in the younger audience keying in to the game may be problematic. A complaint i hear from younger viewers is the slowness of mound visits and umpire reviews. I'm not sure about the data on this from a national survey point and have no strong opinions on the matter, but as annoyed as I get with umpires I prefer their mistakes to the long reviews that take place and the trips to the mound. One trip per game is enough. Any necessary adjustments can take place verbally or between innings. I'm interested to see a national poll or survey that encapsulates some ideas from a wide sector of the baseball viewing public. I cannot consider myself as representative of any norm because I enjoy baseball in spite of its warts.

    • mikelink45 and ToddlerHarmon like this

 

The twenty-eight player roster was a bad idea from day one, just an excuse to add more pitching which naturally tilted the game towards length and more use of relief pitchers. Perhaps some changes are needed. A shift in how the injured list is used, keeping it at 15 days from when the player is placed on the list and not back dated is one suggestion. Another suggestion is to reduce the number of options a player has in terms of being sent back to the minors. If you need to keep a player for 21 days and cannot call them back up for 30 days there would be less shifting of players and maybe more concern for the welfare of the players as well.The actual use of a time clock on pitchers/batters staying in the box would help. Twenty seconds is enough, even with runners on base. Every player in baseball today played with those rules their entire lives until MLB. The use of cards in helmets/hats isn't necessary either. If another team steals the signs so be it. If there is usage of technology for stealing signs and proof, a 162 game ban should work. All of the preparation can take place before the game- let some of the human element return. 

Like I stated on another post, diehard fans will always tune in but a decline in the younger audience keying in to the game may be problematic. A complaint i hear from younger viewers is the slowness of mound visits and umpire reviews. I'm not sure about the data on this from a national survey point and have no strong opinions on the matter, but as annoyed as I get with umpires I prefer their mistakes to the long reviews that take place and the trips to the mound. One trip per game is enough. Any necessary adjustments can take place verbally or between innings. I'm interested to see a national poll or survey that encapsulates some ideas from a wide sector of the baseball viewing public. I cannot consider myself as representative of any norm because I enjoy baseball in spite of its warts.

Well thought out response.Thanks.A lot to think about and baseball better start thinking about more than cutting the minors and furloughing its scouts.

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ToddlerHarmon
Oct 27 2020 07:14 PM

Thanks for asking the question. I agree that it's not about scouts v. stats or old-school v. analytics. Balls in play are just plain more fun.

 

A couple possible fixes, which start to stretch into the ridiculous:

 

Reduce rosters. Fewer pitchers means more times through the order, and less ability to rely on just heat. Plus same-sided batters might swing more defensively? The impact of this might be marginal

 

Move the fences out/up. We do live in an era of stadiums that are easier to hit home runs in, and where it's a feat to produce a triple

 

Remove/modify the foul-bunt strikeout. Make the bunt a palatable option again, force teams out of the shift.

 

Deaden the ball further

 

8 fielders?

 

80-foot baselines?

 

No mound at all?

 

Over the fence is a double?

 

 

    • mikelink45 likes this

Kevin Cash got the old spreadsheet out.

 

"........Snell’s reward for his work: the hook. That’s what Tuesday night amounted to: The analytics-driven Rays removed a starting pitcher who had a 1-0 lead, who had gotten one out in the sixth, who had struck out nine, who had given up two measly singles and hadn’t walked anyone.

Read that sentence. Know the result. Consider whether it makes any sense"
 

From WAPO article on WS game 6.  Here’s the link.

 

https://www.washingt...-world-series/

    • mikelink45 likes this

 

Kevin Cash got the old spreadsheet out.

 

"........Snell’s reward for his work: the hook. That’s what Tuesday night amounted to: The analytics-driven Rays removed a starting pitcher who had a 1-0 lead, who had gotten one out in the sixth, who had struck out nine, who had given up two measly singles and hadn’t walked anyone.

Read that sentence. Know the result. Consider whether it makes any sense"
 

From WAPO article on WS game 6.  Here’s the link.

 

https://www.washingt...-world-series/

I am with you.The great starters learned how to change things when the third AB came up.Now we will never know who is the Tom Seaver or Carlton or Spahn or Marichal or Gibson....

    • Platoon likes this

 

Thanks for asking the question. I agree that it's not about scouts v. stats or old-school v. analytics. Balls in play are just plain more fun.

 

A couple possible fixes, which start to stretch into the ridiculous:

 

Reduce rosters. Fewer pitchers means more times through the order, and less ability to rely on just heat. Plus same-sided batters might swing more defensively? The impact of this might be marginal

 

Move the fences out/up. We do live in an era of stadiums that are easier to hit home runs in, and where it's a feat to produce a triple

 

Remove/modify the foul-bunt strikeout. Make the bunt a palatable option again, force teams out of the shift.

 

Deaden the ball further

 

8 fielders?

 

80-foot baselines?

 

No mound at all?

 

Over the fence is a double?

Fun to speculate.I do not know why, but I am hung up on letting the manager have only 4 designated pitchers for any game.Imagine the anguish when they have only one of them left.