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  1. ashburyjohn's Avatar
    In addition to what MWLFan said, I'd like to know from someone like Terry Ryan how a farm team's management can make life difficult for the major league team if they choose to. I believe that Rochester is dissatisfied with their agreement with the Twins, and if 2012 was supposed to mend fences it doesn't look like the product on the field is going to accomplish that. Yet, if Rochester ends its relationship and hooks on with another major league team, we know that the Twins will just get a shotgun wedding with whichever AAA team just got jilted. (Or, some years it gets interesting, and a round of Musical Chairs takes place.) Suppose both the Twins and this new team are grouchy about the whole arrangement - what would be the concrete harm to the parent club? Depending on the answer, this would be the part that is not 100% about player development.

    In addition, there is a polite fiction maintained that the minor league experience for the fan is one of competitive games being played; anyone who has attended a minor league game can recount in-game situations where this clearly was not the case. (Pitchers getting innings on a fixed schedule, non-tactical late-inning choices of batters, etc.) If at some point the Emperor is finally seen to have no clothes, I suppose a risk to the major league club is having to subsidize to an even greater extent the costs of their minor league clubs, were attendance drop to near zero.
    Updated 05-01-2012 at 12:10 PM by ashburyjohn
  2. mike wants wins's Avatar
    Better than this, if you refuse to trade for or sign expensive players....who has come up in the last THREE years, the you feel is a legit MLB player? Three years....Valencia? Plouffe? Revere? Hendriks? Not one legit player, contributing to winning now, in three years. No new OF. 1 new IF. No starting pitchers (do we think Hendriks is ready?). That's not livable, not if you rely on your farm system pretty much exclusively.
  3. MWLFan's Avatar
    Seth,

    I think from a big picture big league consumes all the oxygen perspective it being about 100% development is a fact. However if you are attending Beloit, Fort Meyers, New Britain and I think in particular Rochester games regularly it is harder to accept that. I know for instance that I am fortunate to get to see Sano and Rosario play this year, but I also know it is a fleeting thing and I have to enjoy it now. When they are gone something needs to remain, the circus just can't pull up it's tent and leave town. When I go to games I want to see a victory. If I was a casual fan and see one or two or four of these I am more likely to come back and spend my money. It really does drum into you as a minor league fan that you are, well minor league. Most people in the stateline area of Wisconsin are either Brewer or Cubs fans, some Sox fans but they are usually excluded at the gates, so they have no interest in Twins prospects past Beloit. I worry about Rochester, great baseball city and a proud tradition that I think the Twins are soiling to some degree. But it is a business and the bottom line is the ticket sales at Target Field. Also, besides my 9 year old whose goal is to wear a Snappers uniform, no player at these levels wants to stay here. They want to get to Minnesota and play in the Major Leagues, don't we all. It is about develpment, but it does not make having an awful team in these cities any easier.
  4. Twins Fan From Afar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Seth Stohs
    someone would have to do some research and show me that winning in the minor leagues leads to winning in the big leagues.

    Don't get me wrong, the purpose of every game is for the Twins to win. During the game, the pitchers and hitters should be doing everything they can to try to win.

    That said, if a manager is instructed to play the team's top prospect, even if he isn't currently as good as another player today... I want them playing the struggling prospect.
    As to your first point, Seth, that's a good question. And I doubt that empirical data exists. For every team like Tampa Bay that seems to make the most out of their prospects, there's a team like Kansas City, who, despite high organizational rankings, never lets it translate into anything at the major league level.
  5. Seth Stohs's Avatar
    someone would have to do some research and show me that winning in the minor leagues leads to winning in the big leagues.

    Don't get me wrong, the purpose of every game is for the Twins to win. During the game, the pitchers and hitters should be doing everything they can to try to win.

    That said, if a manager is instructed to play the team's top prospect, even if he isn't currently as good as another player today... I want them playing the struggling prospect.
  6. Thrylos's Avatar
    [QUOTE=Seth Stohs;bt1847]I know many people care about the win-loss records in the minor leagues, but for me, it doesn't matter at all. The minor leagues are 100% about player development and what is best for the individuals, to make them the best big leaguer. I do think that being part of a team and learning what types of things can help a team win are part of that development.[/QUOTE]

    Seth, I agree that minor leagues are 100% about player development and that it why I do care about Wins and Losses: Part of player development, in addition to learning how to toss and hit the curveball, is to establish a winning culture and to learn to hate losing. If the Twins' minor leaguers do not learn to hate losing in the minors, they will be ok with losing when they are in the majors. And if you want to win, you better have players (and managers and coaches and front office people) who are not ok with losing. Unfortunately the Twins lack this and it is a cultural thing and it starts in all levels, from the Dominical Academy to EST and instructionals, to the minors and the major league club.
  7. Seth Stohs's Avatar
    I know many people care about the win-loss records in the minor leagues, but for me, it doesn't matter at all. The minor leagues are 100% about player development and what is best for the individuals, to make them the best big leaguer. I do think that being part of a team and learning what types of things can help a team win are part of that development.
  8. righty8383's Avatar
    Looks like his AA debut was delayed
  9. Seth Stohs's Avatar
    Congratulations! This blog has been promoted to an article on the front page. Comment here: http://www.twinsdaily.com/content.ph...k-and-Tired-Of
  10. Kanonen80's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by TwinsFanLV
    Has Mauer ever been quoted as promising to try harder or do better? We are drowning in stats. avg. obs. ops. W/K . PDQ. VCR. SAT. etc. The only stat that matters is wins!

    Mauer's contract isn't the problem, it's his attitude.
    That's the catch though - does attitude really lead to more wins than the stats that Mauer puts up? If became the Teddy Roosevelt of baseball leadership but hit like Drew Butera...

    I agree that it would be great if he was a strong vocal leader AND hit really well, but I don't necessarily think he is hurting the team by being quiet. Plus, do we really know what goes on behind closed doors? Maybe he's leading quietly from the locker room but then is reserved out in public?
  11. Kanonen80's Avatar
    How about: "The Pohlads are so cheap!!"

    The family runs the team as a business, and I don't think it's fair to expect more than that. Other owners might play fast and loose with their money and treat their team as a play-thing to waste money on, but in my opinion it's totally acceptable to dedicate a certain percentage of projected revenue to payroll. We don't want them spending money just to spend money.
  12. TwinsFanLV's Avatar
    Don't care about how Target Field was or is financed. It s part of a much larger problem permeating MN government and politcs.

    Justin Morneau would be still be more valuable as a left handed pinch hitter than 21 other players on the roster, even if that was his exclusive role. Morneau (any player, but Morneau especially based on his concussion history) should put his own health and well being ahead of his baseball activities. He needs to live with that body the rest of his life. If his concussion symptoms return, I sincerely hope that he simply walks away from the game and is able to live a long and happy life with his wife and family. Best wishes and no hard feelings.

    Nobody really cares about Mauer's contract. Once again, it's not OUR money. Mauer and his agent negotiated the best deal they could for Mauer. Good for him! Money aside, wouldn't each and every twins fan like to see Mauer take a more vocal and visible role on the team? When he signed the contract, he accepted the role as "the Face of the Twins". Even good or great players have moments when they fail. Wouldn't it be easiert to admire Mauer, (or Span, using last night's example), if he stood up and accepted resonsibility when he failed? Bottom of the Ninth, down a run, bases loaded, two outs, Span strikes out?? Shouldn't Span at least have been quoted saying, "it's my job to win the game there. I din't get it done, I failed my teammates, coaches and the fans. Ill try harder and get the job done. next time."

    Has Mauer ever been quoted as promising to try harder or do better? We are drowning in stats. avg. obs. ops. W/K . PDQ. VCR. SAT. etc. The only stat that matters is wins!

    Mauer's contract isn't the problem, it's his attitude.
  13. bulldogguy's Avatar
    Agreed on all fronts my friend. Let's move on. Find something else that people can nitpick. Each of these has been beaten too death. If only Nicky Punto was around...we need that dog to kick around again.
  14. JB_Iowa's Avatar
    Never hurts to have a resident curmudgeon. I miss Andy.

    We all have our favorite complaints -- for the last year and a half, mine has been the need for "new blood" in the management of the organization (f.o. and field staff) -- pretty sure I sound like a broken record on that topic. (Do people still know what a broken record sounds like? Ah, the sound of those repeats and skips in songs on the airwaves).

    But I'm pretty tired of the ones on your list, too.
  15. Twins Fan From Afar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultima Ratio
    Just to be clear (because there is some confusion) aveRISP has nothing to do with getting the RBI last night. To cite RISP as a stat that conforms to that situation is irrelevant. A hit wasn't necessary to get the RBI. I don't know if there is a stat for Sac fly/hit for the go ahead run. But that would be the only stat germane to last nights poor batting performance Mauer - Doumit (although ave RISP would apply to Doumit because with 2 outs there is not sac RBI opportunity).. Nice write-up otherwise.
    Absolutely correct. I just couldn't find that other stat.
  16. Ultima Ratio's Avatar
    Just to be clear (because there is some confusion) aveRISP has nothing to do with getting the RBI last night. To cite RISP as a stat that conforms to that situation is irrelevant. A hit wasn't necessary to get the RBI. I don't know if there is a stat for Sac fly/hit for the go ahead run. But that would be the only stat germane to last nights poor batting performance Mauer - Doumit (although ave RISP would apply to Doumit because with 2 outs there is not sac RBI opportunity).. Nice write-up otherwise.
  17. TwinsFanLV's Avatar
    How many different ways are there to perceive 5-12?
  18. Twins Fan From Afar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by JB_Iowa
    I appreciate the stats, Andrew but there seems to be a gap between the statistics and perception. And I wonder why that is?

    Is there something that observation tells us that can't be defined statistically? Even before last night's game, what percentage of the people who comment on this board (or of all fans for that matter), would have wanted Mauer to come up in that situation and what percentage would have had a sinking feeling in the pit of their stomach?

    For reasons I can't explain, Mauer doesn't inspire much confidence in me. And it sounds like I'm not the only one. So what explains the discrepancy between our "gut feelings" and the stats you've cited?
    You've hit on a major point. I didn't want Mauer up in that situation last night, either. Maybe the 2006 or 2009 Mauer, but not the current version.

    I'm not sure what the real reason is. Was the damage done in our minds to his perception from last season so significant as to make us think that he can't produce when it really, really counts anymore? Was it the fact that we really could have used a well struck fly ball to the outfield, and we know that he's htiting lots of grounders this season (and last)? Or, instead of focusing on what "we" think, is this completely about Mauer: is he as confident as he once was? Did he go up there hoping to hit a long, sacrifice fly, or was he really thinking that hopefully he could draw a walk and let Willingham do the tough work? I doubt it, but we'll never know with him, because he rarely shows emotions.

    It's a great question, though. Something is lost in translation between the numbers (even this year's extremely small sample size) and fans' perception.
  19. JB_Iowa's Avatar
    I appreciate the stats, Andrew but there seems to be a gap between the statistics and perception. And I wonder why that is?

    Is there something that observation tells us that can't be defined statistically? Even before last night's game, what percentage of the people who comment on this board (or of all fans for that matter), would have wanted Mauer to come up in that situation and what percentage would have had a sinking feeling in the pit of their stomach?

    For reasons I can't explain, Mauer doesn't inspire much confidence in me. And it sounds like I'm not the only one. So what explains the discrepancy between our "gut feelings" and the stats you've cited?
  20. deanlambrecht's Avatar
    Probably the biggest problem with the Clutch statistic is sample size. Even a multi-year veteran like Mauer takes a great deal of Clutch opportunities to compile statistically significant numbers.

    @TwinsFanLV, I understand your frustration, but I think it's misdirected here. This post is about Joe Mauer's ability to hit with RISP and in Clutch situations. The numbers support the notion that he's especially productive in such situations. If the "only" stat the counts is wins, then each year there are 29 "losers" and 1 "winner," and oddly enough under your construct, the "winner" is not even necessarily the team that wins the World Series (because that team doesn't always and doesn't necessarily have the most wins). So I think your notion of the "one stat that counts" can only lead you to a frustrating end. There's much more going on in a game than that, and I think you'll have more fun with the sport overall if you start appreciating the nuances, as frustrating as losses can be. Trust me, I'm not terribly happy, either.
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