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Trading for Price and Betts

Minnesota Twins Talk Today, 03:27 AM
Good Morning,   Per the MLBTR article linked, how would y'all feel about trying to swing a deal with the Red Sox for Mookie Betts an...
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Bremer’s FSN Sidekick 2020

Minnesota Twins Talk Today, 12:26 AM
So with Seth confirming Morneau calling 60 games this year, how do the rest of the games break down? Morneau - 60 Bert - 20? Smalley...
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2019 2020 (non-Twins) off season

Other Baseball Yesterday, 11:12 PM
My first prediction is that WA signs their two big possible FAs to extensions.   My next is that Cole goes to LAA.   The White...
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Baby Blues Are Back!

Minnesota Twins Talk Yesterday, 11:02 PM
I'm so happy!       Here is the press release:     TWINS RETURN TO HISTORY, UNVEIL BABY BLUE ALTERNATE UNIFORM...
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Front Page: Running Down the Hall (of Fame Ballot): 2020...

Other Baseball Yesterday, 11:12 PM
Baseball and the Baseball Writers’ Association of America can spur plenty of debate, especially when it comes to candidates for the Hall...
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Twins Say Now Is Not The Time For Trevor May

Most organizations might view 2015 as an opportunity to have a young starter who has little left to prove at the minor league level to build upon those numbers. Trevor May, however, will not be doing so for Minnesota. Not to start the season anyway.

Are the Twins making the right decision?
According to ESPN/TruMedia, May’s 9.8 K/9 in September was the ninth-best among all American League pitchers with four starts or more. In all of 2014, with the exception of May, not one Twins starting pitcher managed to eclipse that nine strikeouts per nine innings mark in a single month. His 12% swinging strike rate topped the rotation as well and ranked alongside brand name AL pitchers. On top of that, May was just familiarizing himself with major league opponents. The strikeout-poor Twins starting rotation should be thankful to have found that kind of contributor.

READ: TWINS MAKE CUTS, NAME STARTERS

Instead the Twins decided that the left-handed Tommy Milone made the most sense for the rotation to start the year and opted to have May begin the season in Rochester. While Milone will be tapped to be the fifth starter, general manager Terry Ryan was bursting with complimentary words when he told the media that he was not “displeased with Trevor May either.”

May’s “not displeasing” spring was truncated by a bout with the flu which limited his innings at the beginning of the exhibition season. Nevertheless, in the ten innings of work he struck out nine and walked just two -- a much better K/BB ratio than either Milone or Mike Pelfrey.

READ: TREVOR MAY STATES HIS CASE

The news was a let down for the 25-year-old right-hander. After two consecutive seasons in camp with early reassignments this decision felt different for May.

“It’s completely different because the first cut you feel like you are just there to get your innings and go get your work in. I felt like I have a chance. I feel like this is the level I am going to be at but it’s just not going to be right now.”

Teams cannot make costly decisions based on a body of work that stretches for a month. The strikeout-filled September also contain plenty of issues when hitters did make contact. In addition to the robust strikeout rate, May also had one of the league’s highest hard-hit averages and owned the AL’s highest slugging percentage against. Missing bats is good but elevating pitches and allowing hard contact is not.

In his final start against the Pirates, May was not as stretched out in comparison to his competition. Over 4.2 innings of work, he threw 33 pitches -- his highest total pitch count of the spring. That start also came with loud contact combined with wind-aided extra base hits. Despite the results, May felt good about the process but recognized when the kinetic chain broke down.


“I got a little long sometimes and some things flattened out a little bit. Especially elevating,” May said after his final start. “When I was trying to elevate usually that’s has more life than it did. Things stayed a little bit flatter when I would more often than not get bad swings but they squared up pretty good. They got me a couple times.”

After struggling from the stretch in 2014 and refining his mechanics this spring, May felt like he was headed in the right direction. His takeaway from his last start was positive.

“For the most part my body feels under control and I’m definitely happy with the progress I am making in those areas and being able to get ahead of guys and keeping the ball down in the zone, for the most part, has been better than it has been in the past.”

READ: TREVOR MAY AND PITCHING FROM THE STRETCH

One area that May improved upon in 2014 was his ability to control the run game. After allowing 22 stolen bases on 28 attempts in 2013 in New Britain, he allowed just one stolen base in four attempts split between Rochester and the Twins. The attention to runners required additional focus on execution and location on his secondary pitches from the stretch -- something that he felt was progressing well in the spring.

Manager Paul Molitor mentioned that May did not pitch himself out of contention for the spot this spring. It was different variables that played a role in choosing Milone. The message to May for the immediate future was simple.

“Go down and keep working,” said May in regards to the instructions he received from the Twins. “I felt like I made a lot of steps and improved in areas that needed to improvement, composure-wise and poise and being aggressive. That’s how it shakes out sometimes.”

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169 Comments

Yeah . . . I mean look at this (and I understand the "opening day doesn't really matter" crowd, but there still are 40-man issues, and development issues) . . . . a rebuild with Hunter, Robinson, Milone, Pelfrey, and Stauffer instead of Rosario, Hicks, May, Tonkin, and Oliveros (or two other relievers). 

 

This is why I never really get the idea of "winning more games" and "playing prospects/young guys" being mutually exclusive. At AAA too. The Twins seem to just ram aging veterans from the top down instead of just going with a full youth movement to actually see who the hell is good and worth keeping. Then you just get young guys pissed off and off elsewhere to potentially succeed. This is enough of a problem, but it is only exacerbated by injuries to some key prospects . . . the rebuild gets further and further delayed. Back after 2012, I would have thought 2015 to be the year of certain contention. Now? Does 2017 even make sense for that?

    • h2oface and Dr. Evil like this
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birdwatcher
Mar 29 2015 10:45 PM

 

And neither is Meyer.  Both are 25/26.  Guess the Twins have decided that they can wait a couple more years with both.  

 

Rosario, Polanco, Buxton, May, Meyer all sent down in favor of the Mike Pelfrey's, Tommy Milone's, Shane Robinson's, and other washed up mediocre veterans......yep that's the Twins.  Gotta love it.

First of all, where are we getting the "couple more years stuff?

 

Not a single one of the players you mentioned was sent down because they are too young. The fact that May, or anyone else, is either young or old is irrelevant. Great, a whole bunch of people believe May would help us win more than Milone would in April. Maybe all those people are wrong.

 

We're still in a fluid stage of this rebuild. Yeah, it's easy to say let's just go with the young guy over the old guy. The trouble is, maybe the "young/old" guys, including May and Meyer, would stink up the joint right now. Or maybe not. But it's not like any irreversible decisions are being made on a single one of the more promising prospects mentioned. So let's not get too sold on the thought that Robinson, Milone and Pelfrey are "washed up" and May and Meyer are saviors with expiration stamps and under quarantine for two years. It's a fluid situation and every one of these prospects needs to be thought of separately. 

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blairpaul715
Mar 30 2015 06:42 AM

 

First of all, where are we getting the "couple more years stuff?

 

Not a single one of the players you mentioned was sent down because they are too young. The fact that May, or anyone else, is either young or old is irrelevant. Great, a whole bunch of people believe May would help us win more than Milone would in April. Maybe all those people are wrong.

 

We're still in a fluid stage of this rebuild. Yeah, it's easy to say let's just go with the young guy over the old guy. The trouble is, maybe the "young/old" guys, including May and Meyer, would stink up the joint right now. Or maybe not. But it's not like any irreversible decisions are being made on a single one of the more promising prospects mentioned. So let's not get too sold on the thought that Robinson, Milone and Pelfrey are "washed up" and May and Meyer are saviors with expiration stamps and under quarantine for two years. It's a fluid situation and every one of these prospects needs to be thought of separately. 

Hi, i dont post much at all, but i like reading everyones posts and opinions, and I will write one here LOL................I dont think it is that May and Meyer are saviors, but people , including myself want to see what we have, and if it dont work out, we can temporarily replace them with someone else from the Minors with potential, and then also there are always guys in the scrap pile(the Pelphreys, Correias , ect ect) that are available short term, if we need that for a last resort.......with that said, i am fairly optimistic that we can be a close to 500 team............On the Hicks front , i was hoping he would make it and succeed, but he has been given his chance and I dont mind if he didnt make it that we went with a possible platoon system, since Buxton should be here in a year or so, and Rosario possibly too. There is my 2 cents :)

    • SQUIRREL, USAFChief, birdwatcher and 1 other like this
Who cares if May isn't stretched out completely? Have Pelfrey/Milone piggy back on his starts to begin the season. So instead of starting a guy for 100 pitches than brining a guy in for 40 just reverse it. Start the guy for 40 and then bring Pelf in for 100. Be "creative".

For the "just wait until later in the year," crowd, isn't that what we did last season? How is that helping us now? Instead of figuring out if May and Meyer can handle the workload we have now been forced to punt that down the road and bring in 2 new outside starters in Santana and Milone because we aren't sure what May and Meyer can do. If they never give the youngsters more than 10 starts how will the Twins ever know? It's not like people are arguing to toss Berrios or Stewart out there.
    • SydneyTwinsFan, Shane Wahl, h2oface and 1 other like this

Old school guy here, let the kids play!

Tired of the saving them for the future, believe in them and let them play ;)

I wonder how long it would have taken to develop Puckett or Hrbek now days ;)

    • h2oface, blairpaul715 and Dr. Evil like this

 

Who cares if May isn't stretched out completely? Have Pelfrey/Milone piggy back on his starts to begin the season. So instead of starting a guy for 100 pitches than brining a guy in for 40 just reverse it. Start the guy for 40 and then bring Pelf in for 100. Be "creative".

For the "just wait until later in the year," crowd, isn't that what we did last season? How is that helping us now? Instead of figuring out if May and Meyer can handle the workload we have now been forced to punt that down the road and bring in 2 new outside starters in Santana and Milone because we aren't sure what May and Meyer can do. If they never give the youngsters more than 10 starts how will the Twins ever know? It's not like people are arguing to toss Berrios or Stewart out there.

 

It would take approximately one start for May to be stretched out!

And yes to your entire second paragraph!!!

    • Hosken Bombo Disco and jimmer like this

 

Rosario and one of Meyer or May will be up by the end of May anyway...

With a 5th starter candidate reluctantly placed in the pen, the Twins didn't call up a new SP (non-doubleheader) until game 71 last year.  That would be June 23rd this year.

 

And that was with fantastically bad performance from that spot - 13 starts at 7.08 ERA, AND a long-term injury.  Nolasco lasted with a 5.90 ERA until almost the all-star break before hitting the DL himself, and Correia lasted into August with his 4.94 mark.

 

And to those that think an early-season trade will clear the deck, Kendrys Morales' July 24th trade last year was the EARLIEST we dealt a player in-season from our MLB roster since 2006 when we traded Juan Castro on June 15.  In the TR era, only once has he traded an MLB player before June (Rick Aguilera, May 21, 1999).

 

The Twins have been a little more fluid about replacing position players lately, but almost always they have options (Hicks, Arcia, Florimon).  Players without options invariably seem to last until at least June (Kubel, Tony Batista, the aforementioned Juan Castro, etc.).

    • Oxtung likes this

It isn't 100% about young versus old.Milone really isn't old.It is about upside.Milone's is that of a #5 starter.I think May has much better potential.

    • Oxtung, h2oface, big dog and 1 other like this

Also, in 2014, 80% of our games started and 82% of our total innings went to pitchers on the opening day roster.  Only 32 starts went to other guys, 265 innings TOTAL between starters and relievers not on the opening day roster.  And that's despite the fact that one of our starters missed virtually the entire season with injury, another spent over a month on the DL, and another was traded with two months remaining.

 

That's why who makes the opening day roster is important.

    • SydneyTwinsFan, Oxtung, h2oface and 3 others like this

 

Also, in 2014, 80% of our games started and 82% of our total innings went to pitchers on the opening day roster.  Only 32 starts went to other guys, 265 innings TOTAL between starters and relievers not on the opening day roster.  And that's despite the fact that one of our starters missed virtually the entire season with injury, another spent over a month on the DL, and another was traded with two months remaining.

 

That's why who makes the opening day roster is important.

 

Totally agree. 

 

Milone has to be really bad in order to be repaced, which he likely won't be.He will be a 28 year old, #5 or #6 starter

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stringer bell
Mar 30 2015 10:20 AM
While I don't disagree with the comments above, there are differences between last year and this. First and foremost, there is a new manager and pitching coach. Secondly, beyond Pelfrey, the young pitchers most of us are calling for are in line. I can't even remember the names of the guys who got starts, but they are all out of the way now. Will it make a difference? Time will tell.

 

While I don't disagree with the comments above, there are differences between last year and this. First and foremost, there is a new manager and pitching coach. Secondly, beyond Pelfrey, the young pitchers most of us are calling for are in line. I can't even remember the names of the guys who got starts, but they are all out of the way now. Will it make a difference? Time will tell.

 

Some of us thought May and Meyer were in line last year. Then along came Yohan Pino.Kris Johnson.Logan Darnell, etc. and the mainstay is the GM, who decides these things.

 

 

    • h2oface, spycake, Dr. Evil and 1 other like this
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ScrapTheNickname
Mar 30 2015 10:44 AM

I wrote this in response to another article recently, but it bears repeating.

 

Each MLB team in 2014 on average used 9.6 starters.

 

So who starts the season is not as relevant as it may appear.

 

Apparently plenty of people care.  Some feel that when enduring lost and supposedly rebuilding seasons (such as last year and this year), that with having such a highly touted farm system, now is the perfect time to give some younger (and in Meyer's and May's cases, not so young) players time to see what they have.

OK, Wecan talk Meyer and May endlessly but I believe if May has a good month he will be back up. Probably take two good months for Meyer. Who else should be given time with the Twins?  Polanco?in place of who? Sano and Buxton?After missing 2014 for all practical purposes I would not bring up either at this point and I don't think you would either. Rosario? Low average and zero walks this spring doesn't scream promotion to me but yes I would prefer him to what we have in center now.   Fans act like the Twins never promote anyone but Gibson, Santana, Vargas, HIcks and Arcia were hardly slow tracked. I said all along that if they just included May in the rotation I would be happy and if they platooned Hicks and Schaefer I would be even happier.    So essentially I am not happy but that is just one move. Not an all encompassing lack of moves.  

    • birdwatcher and h2oface like this

How many years in the minors constitutes fast tracking? Slow tracking?  Normal tracking?

 

Before getting promoted to MLB: 

Vargas 6 years in the minors.

Hicks 5.

Danny Santana 7.

Arcia 5.

 

Rosario 5 years and still not promoted (though there's been some suspensions).

 

Are we going to call this fast-tracking?

 

Study came out a couple years ago that stated the Twins were the slowest to promote their players of all MLB teams.  

 

'The result is that some teams develop a reputation for especially aggressive or conservative tendencies in promoting their players. When I asked Kevin Goldstein to name an organization known for being conservative in this respect, he immediately mentioned the Twins, confirming my own impression.'

 

If that trend is changing, may take awhile to break the perception. 

    • nicksaviking, h2oface, Kwak and 1 other like this
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nicksaviking
Mar 30 2015 11:10 AM

 

 Fans act like the Twins never promote anyone but Gibson, Santana, Vargas, HIcks and Arcia were hardly slow tracked.  

 

Well I'd hardly say Gibson was fast tracked.He had TJ consideration so there is some room for benefit of doubt, but he also could have been called up in early 2013 instead of late 2013.The team was already in the tank and Gibson could have had a shot at getting his struggles out of the way early in the year instead of late in the year and carry over into 2014. 

 

As for the other players listed, yes, they have been promoted earlier than expected (though only because they stayed so long in the lower levels) which is what has some of us perplexed.Why are the position players allowed to come up and learn at the MLB level but not the pitchers?Pitchers have shorter useful careers, they should be called up when they are young to get everything you can out of them. 

    • h2oface, Dr. Evil and jimmer like this
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diehardtwinsfan
Mar 30 2015 11:23 AM

How many years in the minors constitutes fast tracking? Slow tracking?  Normal tracking?
 
Before getting promoted to MLB: 
Vargas 6 years in the minors.
Hicks 5.
Danny Santana 7.
Arcia 5.
 
Rosario 5 years and still not promoted (though there's been some suspensions).
 
Are we going to call this fast-tracking?
 
Study came out a couple years ago that stated the Twins were the slowest to promote their players of all MLB teams.  
 
'The result is that some teams develop a reputation for especially aggressive or conservative tendencies in promoting their players. When I asked Kevin Goldstein to name an organization known for being conservative in this respect, he immediately mentioned the Twins, confirming my own impression.'
 
If that trend is changing, may take awhile to break the perception.


With the exception of Hicks, I believe all of these guys were international FAs, which means they were signed as 16 year olds. Making a debut at 21/22 IS fast tracking, and as for Hicks, I think the case at this point is this point is that they moved too fast with him.
    • birdwatcher and Mike Frasier Law like this

 

With the exception of Hicks, I believe all of these guys were international FAs, which means they were signed as 16 year olds. Making a debut at 21/22 IS fast tracking, and as for Hicks, I think the case at this point is this point is that they moved too fast with him.

You think so?  How many of those guys mentioned were 21/22 when they debuted?

 

The years in the minors I gave weren't from when they were signed, it's from when they debuted on the field. Most started at 17/18.  I'm not sure I'd call it fast for all those guys.  Some of those guys spent 2-3+ years in rookie ball alone.

 

Fans act like the Twins never promote anyone but Gibson, Santana, Vargas, HIcks and Arcia were hardly slow tracked. I said all along that if they just included May in the rotation I would be happy and if they platooned Hicks and Schaefer I would be even happier.    So essentially I am not happy but that is just one move. Not an all encompassing lack of moves.  

 

Santana only came up out of sheer desperation from multiple major-mis-assessments of personnel- in his 7th year with the club.

 

Gibson- TJ issues early on, but should have come up in 2013 before the "PJ, Cole and Pedro" show lingered into summer- he was clearly the best SP all year in Roc. (Albers notwithstanding).

 

Vargas also could have been called up in May 2014 when there was roster room and need for a bat- in his 6th year with the club.

 

Hicks was also promoted in his 6th year with the club.

    • h2oface, Dr. Evil and jimmer like this

 

With the exception of Hicks, I believe all of these guys were international FAs, which means they were signed as 16 year olds. Making a debut at 21/22 IS fast tracking, and as for Hicks, I think the case at this point is this point is that they moved too fast with him.

 

MLB debut ages

Santana 24

Gibson 25

Vargas 24

Hicks 23

    • jimmer likes this

 

 and as for Hicks, I think the case at this point is this point is that they moved too fast with him.

 

No.  The Twins moved too slowly with him...  with respect to moving him back down to AA/AAA after his first 50 PAs in 2013.  Leaving him hanging out to dry in a major league starting lineup when he clearly didn't belong bordered on cruel and unusual punishment.  He's never recovered.

 

The point being, it's an inexact science to know exactly who is and isn't "ready".  Only one way to find out for sure.

    • nicksaviking, h2oface, Dr. Evil and 1 other like this

 

MLB debut ages

Santana 24

Gibson 25

Vargas 24

Hicks 23

 

Addendum:

 

Mauer - 20 (4 days from being 21)

Gomez - 21

Liriano - 21

Garza - 22

 

Gibson was probably going to debut at 22 or 23 before TJ

 

 

    • birdwatcher likes this

 

I wrote this in response to another article recently, but it bears repeating.

 

Each MLB team in 2014 on average used 9.6 starters.

 

So who starts the season is not as relevant as it may appear.

Of course, 80% of games started went to each team's top 5.  87% went to each team's top 6.  Each team had an average of 20.6 starts for pitchers outside their top 6.

 

Nobody here doubts that May and probably even Meyer will start a game in MLB in 2015.  The question is, how many?  And, what's the benefit of giving priority to Milone and likely Pelfrey?

    • Oxtung, Dr. Evil and jimmer like this

 

Addendum:

 

Mauer - 20 (4 days from being 21)

Gomez - 21

Liriano - 21

Garza - 22

 

Gibson was probably going to debut at 22 or 23 before TJ

Everyone has acknowledged that Gibson was a special case, and having to go back in time to find exceptions to the current situation only makes the current situation more stark in its comparative inepitude.

    • h2oface and Dr. Evil like this

 

Everyone has acknowledged that Gibson was a special case, and having to go back in time to find exceptions to the current situation only makes the current situation more stark in its comparative inepitude.

Not to mention one (Gomez) didn't even make his MLB debut with us :-)  And the names brought up earlier (Santana, Hicks, Vargas, Gibson) were brought up as examples of people who were fast-tracked. So if THAT is what we call fast-tracking.

    • jokin likes this

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