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Twinsfest questions

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I am thinking about attending Twinsfest and had a couple of questions I hope could be answered: 1. Do you have to pay for autographs? 2....
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Ex-Twins in 2020

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The season hasn't started yet, but I was motivated to start this thread a bit early after getting a message from Van, suggesting that I s...
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Do you really like the DH?

Other Baseball Today, 05:10 AM
We've resisted in the NL for 47 years now and with a 26th player added it may be delayed even longer. When offense is slacking they talk...
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Forget adding SP, let's talk about keeping what we have

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Let's stop talking about adding more SP for a moment and recognize what we have and keeping it. There have been various discussions about...
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Donaldson contract discussion - 4/100? 4/110?

Minnesota Twins Talk Yesterday, 09:36 PM
https://www.mlbtrade...-donaldson.html Hopefully this offer gets accepted as it would be a good way to wrap up the off-season. Big impro...
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Bullpen Calculus

After yesterday’s crazy day at Fort Myers, today was considerably more serene. It also served as a deep breath before the last big push for several roster spots. Twins Manager Paul Molitor says he would like to get the roster set by this weekend, so the pressure to perform (or at least not mess up) is high. “It always is in spring training,” said Twins General Manager Terry Ryan. “Especially when you get to the last ten games or so.”
Image courtesy of Reinhold Matay-USA TODAY Sports
I’ve written a lot about the other spring training battles but have stayed away from the bullpen, partly because Nick Nelson covered it this weekend and partly because there were just so many options. But with recent demotions, the bullpen battles are becoming a little more clear – but not a lot more clear. There are just so many factors, and the biggest ones might not be the individual relievers' performance. It might be the performance of the guys trying out for the fifth starter job or whether or not the Twins can make a trade for a Rule 5 pick.

Here’s the breakdown:

There are seven spots. Four of them are essentially spoken for:
1. Glen Perkins has overcome his oblique strain, so he’s in.
2. Casey Fien is in and seems to have overcome whatever ailed him last September.
3. Brian Duensing was hit by a comebacker yesterday just over the knee on his thigh, but while he won’t pitch for a couple of days, he should have no problem being back for opening day.
4. Tim Stauffer has a major league contract, and while Terry Ryan stopped short of calling him an “absolute lock” in his pregame press conference, he did say he’ll be getting the “benefit of the doubt.” So he’s in.

That leaves three spots and they are largely dependent on what happens in the fifth spot in the rotation. At least one, and possibly, two, are spoken for. Mike Pelfrey, Tommy Milone and Trevor May are all competing for that last spot. Ryan confirmed that “is a fair assumption” that Pelfrey and Milone would end up in the bullpen if they don’t win the job, and oddly enough would not say that Trevor May would be sent to Rochester if he didn’t with the job, leaving the option open that he could be in the bullpen, too. However, that chance seems very remote.

Your guess is as good as mine regarding the fifth starter job. Everyone seems to be playing their cards very close to their vest. Prior to the postgame conference, I would have handicapped it like this:

Pelfrey 1:1
Milone 2:1
May 5:1

But I talked to at least one veteran sportswriter who thought Milone was still in the lead, and it also seemed like there was some confusion whether Pelfrey would get another start with the big league club. Whether that means he’s out of the running or they just don’t need to see any more is unknown. So again, take those odds with much more than a grain of salt. Like, maybe a shaker of salt.

Back to the bullpen. Whoever wins could have a major effect on the makeup of the bullpen. Let’s look at the scenarios.

What If Pelfrey Wins The Fifth Starter Spot?
5. Tommy Milone becomes the second (or third if you count Perkins) lefty in the bullpen.

That leaves two spots in the bullpen. My best guess is they are taken by the right-handers:
6. Blaine Boyer and
7. J.R. Graham

Missing out:
RHP Mark Hamburger
LHP Caleb Thielbar, Aaron Thompson

Boyer and Graham are mostly a guess, though they have had great camps. But so have all the guys that are still in camp, so either one could be replaced by Hamburger. It’s also possible that the Twins could decide to still take another left-hander, and Terry Ryan praised both Thielbar and Thompson’s spring earlier today. Ryan also said a few days ago he doesn’t feel strongly about how many left-handers or right-handers are in the bullpen.

What If Milone Wins The Fifth Starter Spot?
5. Mike Pelfrey becomes the third right-hander in the bullpen.

That leaves two spots in the bullpen. My best guess is they would want a right-hander and a left-hander, so let’s go with:
6. Caleb Thielbar and
7. J.R. Graham

Missing out:
RHP Mark Hamburger
LHP Blaine Boyer, Aaron Thompson

I’m in the minority in thinking that the Twins would choose Graham over Boyer. But since Graham is a Rule 5 pick and since Boyer isn’t on the 40-man roster, that’s the way I’m going. I should emphasize – Boyer has really impressed people.

If the Twins decide to keep Boyer and send Graham down in this scenario, they would either need to return him to the Braves or make a deal. In the past, the Twins have had some luck making deals with the Braves; that’s how they secured Scott Diamond. That happened very late in spring training that year, on the 28th of March. I’m optimistic that this could happen again.

As for the lefties, I don’t know if Thielbar is really in front of Thompson. I think Thielbar will get the benefit of the doubt given his time on the team the last few years. Then today, Thompson pitched before Thielbar did today and Thielbar did struggle a bit, giving up two hits and the winning run (though I think it should have been unearned).

However, Molitor emphasized that he didn’t mean to give them a “head-to-head” matchup; he just wasn’t able to use Thompson in the game yesterday, so he made sure he got him in the game today.

What If May Wins The Fifth Starter Spot?
5. Mike Pelfrey becomes the third right-hander in the bullpen.
6. Tommy Milone becomes the second lefty in the bullpen.

That leaves just one spot in the bullpen. My best guess is they would want a right-hander, so let’s go with:
7. Blaine Boyer

Missing out:
RHP Mark Hamburger, J.R. Graham
LHP Caleb Thielbar, Aaron Thompson

Looking at this, it seems that Trevor May is going to need to overcome even more than having an option to send him down and a limited spring training resume due to the flu. Putting him in the fifth spot also squeezes the bullpen that much more. (Oh, and the forecast for his start on Friday has a 90% chance of rain. What’s next? Locusts?)

If you want to distill things a little further, it feels like there will likely be two spots in the bullpen and three pitchers essentially competing for it: Boyer, Graham and Thielbar. The key factor might be if they can work a trade for Graham. If so, and May doesn’t win the fifth job, the logjam could be cleared.

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85 Comments

Ryan doesn't trade prospects, not sure how they can ruin their trade value. 

    • Jham likes this

 

Ryan doesn't trade prospects, not sure how they can ruin their trade value. 

 

Maybe I should have put "prospects" in quotes, as the names I'm seeing thrown around as potential bull pen arms, other than Reed and Burdi, are maybe not so prospecty.  These guys almost always fail in the big leagues, but are occasionally used to fill in trade gaps.  But it's easier to a sell a not so prospecty guy as a prospect if you can tell your trade partner that "He'd be good in the Bigs, but we don't have room", as opposed to "We've proven conclusively that he has no big league future, because we tried him."

 

Can we please play one regular season game before we turn this season into yet another rolling audition of failed prospects eliminating whatever trade value they might have and start giving away rostered players for nothing?

"Yet another"?  This hasn't happened at the MLB bullpen recently for the Twins.

 

Last year, Tonkin was the only guy to get a pen audition before August.  Meanwhile, 41% of our relief innings went to "veterans" who were gone from the organization by December, returning zero value.

    • Mike Sixel, nytwinsfan and Platoon like this

 

Can we please play one regular season game before we turn this season into yet another rolling audition of failed prospects eliminating whatever trade value they might have and start giving away rostered players for nothing?

This literally has not happened, at least in the last few years. Hicks is the only recent high-ranking prospect that failed. Slama wouldn't be in the top 30 in the system today. Vargas, Santana, Gibson, Dozier, Arcia have all been solid or better.May was starting to figure it out before the season ended.Who else am I forgetting? In terms of FA, Nolasco, Pelfrey, Doumit, Marquis, Corriea, Willingham, and Morales, not to mention the countless "former-Twins" veterans, have either been mediocre (Willingham was good in 2012) or just disasters (everyone else). Only Hughes and Suzuki stick out as a FA signing that has worked out great in the last few years. Fein was a minor league FA who came up through Rochester, and thus was more akin to a prospect than Stauffer.

    • Platoon likes this

 

Even if nobody loses their spot due to terrible performance (unlikely), the Twins would be smart to plan on using at least 7 starters and 10 relievers in the first half alone - multiple injuries will happen. So, all things being equal, I'd like to see them craft a 40-man that includes at least that many spots on the depth chart. If the choice for 5th-starter creates a roster crunch that causes them to discard a player they believe is actually their #7 reliever, that means they could wind up giving innings to their #11 reliever at some point in the first half. Stashing some options guys instead could help insure that they only give innings to their best pitchers, which would help the team win this year.

They did this last year.  Nine guys saw first half 2014 bullpen action, and the only "stashed options guy" was Tonkin, for 12.1 innings (4% of the bullpen total).

 

Did it help the team win?  Did we wind up with additional assets?  Did it answer any questions about the future?

    • Mike Sixel and Platoon like this

 

 

Maybe I should have put "prospects" in quotes, as the names I'm seeing thrown around as potential bull pen arms, other than Reed and Burdi, are maybe not so prospecty.  These guys almost always fail in the big leagues, but are occasionally used to fill in trade gaps.  But it's easier to a sell a not so prospecty guy as a prospect if you can tell your trade partner that "He'd be good in the Bigs, but we don't have room", as opposed to "We've proven conclusively that he has no big league future, because we tried him."

I think you are underestimating Achter, Tonkin, and Z. Jones. Yes, they don't have the same closer or set-up potential as Burdi or Reed, but they are legitimate prospects, and would have been top 10-20 in our system a couple of years ago. Arguably Tonkin and Z. Jones still are.

 

Nope, the worst that can happen is that a bunch of guys perform well in ST (and in the minors for that matter) and you end up not playing the guys who perform well because Terry Ryan needs to justify the signing. 

 

Still confused about how you are arriving at these distinctions.Stauffer performed well (57K in 56.1 IP, 2.56 ERA) in the ML play, while Tonkin/Achter(I assume these are the two you are anguishing over) performed similarly in MiL play.None impressed in ST (though tonkin/Achter had smaller sample sizes and Stauffer's poor outing were the multi-inning ones when he was still competing for the 5th starters role.So, tell me again why Tonkin and/or Achter trump Stauffer? 

 

For what it's worth, I would have had no problem with Achter, in particular, claiming the 7th spot over Pelfrey/Milone, if that's the direction they end up going.Maybe over Boyer also, although if you can remember back that far (prior to his surprising retirment), he was a very good ML releiver also, and has been outstanding this Spring, so hard to argue either way too forcefully on that one.But over Stauffer?Hmm . . . no, that makes no sense.

Another good point above, if you keep the young guys down, how do you know what you have? At some point, you need to give them a chance, like, in a year when you are NOT A CONTENDER, like the last two years, and pretty probably this year too.

    • nytwinsfan and Platoon like this

 

 

Still confused about how you are arriving at these distinctions.Stauffer performed well (57K in 56.1 IP, 2.56 ERA) in the ML play, while Tonkin/Achter(I assume these are the two you are anguishing over) performed similarly in MiL play.None impressed in ST (though tonkin/Achter had smaller sample sizes and Stauffer's poor outing were the multi-inning ones when he was still competing for the 5th starters role.So, tell me again why Tonkin and/or Achter trump Stauffer? 

 

For what it's worth, I would have had no problem with Achter, in particular, claiming the 7th spot over Pelfrey/Milone, if that's the direction they end up going.Maybe over Boyer also, although if you can remember back that far (prior to his surprising retirment), he was a very good ML releiver also, and has been outstanding this Spring, so hard to argue either way too forcefully on that one.But over Stauffer?Hmm . . . no, that makes no sense.

Tonkin and Achter could probably use more time, true, and Reed and Burdi definitely. But 2 of 3 of Milone, Pelfrey, and/or May need spots. I just don't buy it that any of those three will not be as good as Stauffer. Maybe May, but if so, that is because he is still working some things out to reach his much higher upside. Thielber may not make the pen and he has a noticeably better career FIP than Stauffer, playing in a more hitter friendly park. He's also a lefty. If Ryan really meant what he said about playing the best people, and thus was willing to bench Stauffer, I'd have no trouble with the signing. But that's BS, as we saw last year with Nolasco.

 

EXACTLY. This is the year to figure out what we have.

 

Another good point above, if you keep the young guys down, how do you know what you have? At some point, you need to give them a chance, like, in a year when you are NOT A CONTENDER, like the last two years, and pretty probably this year too.

 

    • Platoon likes this

 

Tonkin and Achter could probably use more time, true, and Reed and Burdi definitely. But 2 of 3 of Milone, Pelfrey, and/or May need spots. I just don't buy it that any of those three will not be as good as Stauffer. Maybe May, but if so, that is because he is still working some things out to reach his much higher upside. Thielber may not make the pen and he has a noticeably better career FIP than Stauffer, playing in a more hitter friendly park. He's also a lefty. If Ryan really meant what he said about playing the best people, and thus was willing to bench Stauffer, I'd have no trouble with the signing. But that's BS, as we saw last year with Nolasco.

 

OMG, all this time I thought we were arguing about veterans vs. prospects.Honestly, if it's down to Stauffer, Pelfrey and Milone for 1 spot, I don't even care :)

    • Mike Sixel, nytwinsfan and Platoon like this

 

OMG, all this time I thought we were arguing about veterans vs. prospects.Honestly, if it's down to Stauffer, Pelfrey and Milone for 1 spot, I don't even care :)

Well, in my original post I mentioned both prospects (being "on the doorstep") and Milone, Pelfrey, and May. To be fair to Ryan, he probably didn't expect all three of MPM, plus Graham and Boyer, to all pitch well, and that is a good problem to have. Again, it is not signing Stauffer per se I have a problem with, it is signing him and essentially guaranteeing him a spot, at least unless he sucks for months (like Nolasco did last year before he was taken out of the rotation).

    • twinsajsf and Platoon like this

 

Another good point above, if you keep the young guys down, how do you know what you have? At some point, you need to give them a chance, like, in a year when you are NOT A CONTENDER, like the last two years, and pretty probably this year too.

 

We pay scouts and managers to tell us when guys are ready and if they believe their minor league success will translate to big league success.  I agree, there are points when you need to see what you've got, but as of now, we're tied for first place.  If this season is another Jesse Crain-wreck, we'll have plenty of time to see prospect, fringe prospect, and AAAA all-stars alike.  In recent memory, Fien and before him Burton were a couple of guys who made Twins games worth watching past the 5th inning.  I'm not saying that Achter or Tonkin, etc. will never be pieces.  I'm saying that I'm not going to dump a roster guy like Stauffer to make sure they get big league innings just because one of them might be the next Tony Swarzak. 

 

Another good point above, if you keep the young guys down, how do you know what you have? At some point, you need to give them a chance, like, in a year when you are NOT A CONTENDER, like the last two years, and pretty probably this year too.

 

We pay scouts and managers to tell us when guys are ready and if they believe their minor league success will translate to big league success.  I agree, there are points when you need to see what you've got, but as of now, we're tied for first place.  If this season is another Jesse Crain-wreck, we'll have plenty of time to see prospect, fringe prospect, and AAAA all-stars alike.  In recent memory, Fien and before him Burton were a couple of guys who made Twins games worth watching past the 5th inning.  I'm not saying that Achter or Tonkin, etc. will never be pieces.  I'm saying that I'm not going to dump a roster guy like Stauffer to make sure they get big league innings just because one of them might be the next Tony Swarzak. 

Also, if Tonkin had looked remotely reliable in his several opportunities with the big league club, we probably don't even sign Stauffer who, by the way, wouldn't have be the first low-risk bull pen guy to come in on a one-year deal and earn an extension if that should happen.  If he's awful, trade him, release him, send him back to the NL and give someone else a shot.  It's harder for me to justify a spot for Pelfrey other than that he's apparently healthy, and he's been successful during spring training, but I understand people wanting to give him a limited shot before eating his salary, and dumping him for nothing in order to promote___________ .  

To be honest, I'm far more worried about Perkins closing out games than I am about the net difference between losing Pelfrey and blocking Tonkin.  

 

In recent memory, Fien and before him Burton were a couple of guys who made Twins games worth watching past the 5th inning.

Fien was 28 when we signed him, with 6 years of potential MLB control and a career minor league 8.9 K/9, 2.1 BB/9.  Burton was 30, but still had 2 years of team control, and a career 129 ERA+ in 170 MLB innings.  Those were smart gambles of roster spots.

 

A potential 4-man bullpen monster of Duensing-Stauffer-Boyer-Pelfrey, in 2015?  Not so much.

    • jorgenswest likes this

I guess we just disagree on how important it is to get the Tonkin's of the world major league innings over keeping roster guys like Stauffer and maybe Pelfrey.  I'm not sure one is better than the other.  Given the fact that I don't have a ton of confidence in one over the other, I'd go with the option that still allows me to change over and go with option B if option A fails.  The other options couldn't beat out Caleb Thielbar or Lester Oliveras for a call-up last year.  So I lean a little more toward option A.

 

If we get to June and our rotation is Hughes, Santana, Nolasco, Gibson, and May and our pen features Graham, Stauffer, Milone, Pelfrey and Alex Meyer and we've fielded calls or traded Duensing will you be mad?  

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James Richter
Mar 26 2015 04:10 PM

 

They did this last year.  Nine guys saw first half 2014 bullpen action, and the only "stashed options guy" was Tonkin, for 12.1 innings (4% of the bullpen total).

 

Did it help the team win?  Did we wind up with additional assets?  Did it answer any questions about the future?

I would say they also stashed Pressly and, to some extent, Guerrier.

 

You may recall that the team had a rather better winning percentage in the 1st half last year, and the bullpen compared favorably in ERA and FIP relative to the rest of the league. What did they do wrong last spring?

I would say they also stashed Pressly and, to some extent, Guerrier.

You may recall that the team had a rather better winning percentage in the 1st half last year, and the bullpen compared favorably in ERA and FIP relative to the rest of the league. What did they do wrong last spring?

Pressly may have been stashed, but he wasn't retrieved as your plan described. I think you overestimate how much those opporunities get spread around to the lower reaches of that depth chart.

If our bullpen was so valuable in the first half, why did we drop 4 veteran relievers who pitched 47% of our first half bullpen innings, and get nothing in return? That doesn't sound like a smart depth chart or balancing the present with the future -- it sounds like spinning their wheels, confirming that all of our mediocre relievers were in fact mediocre. We did it with a few of our offensive spots too. If our bullpen and offense performed well for a time, it was in spite of these decisions.

There should be at least one spot in this pen to help identify and develop a potential future asset, outside of the Rule 5 guy. That's all.
    • jorgenswest, Mike Sixel and Oxtung like this
I could live with the 30 something's getting the innings if I truly believed they were brought in purely as stop gaps until our best relieving prospects are ready. If the Twins have given up on Tonkin, Achter, Pressly so be it. If the plan is to bridge the gap to Burdi, Reed, Melotakis, Chargois, Z. Jones, T. Jones (Yes I realize that a few of those guys are hurt but they seem to represent the best of The Twins prospects), I could accept that. This organization is in love with mediocre hard working veterans, and while there is nothing wrong with some vets on the pitching staff, there is something wrong when the vast majority of the staff is past their prime. This is a rebuilding team after all. So I think my main problem here is that this is a reoccurring theme (yes there are a few counter examples like Gibson and Hicks) and I see no reason to expect that cycle to change.

Does anybody think next year will be any different than this year?
    • Mike Sixel likes this
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Willihammer
Mar 26 2015 10:33 PM

The Twins now have what, six pitchers age 25 or older slated for AAA (Oliveros, Tonkin, Hamburger, Achter, Pressly, Meyer) - seven if May is optioned? I mean, Terry Ryan likes the mantra "you can never have too much pitching." Yes you can!

 

Do the Twins know what a velocity aging curve looks like? Do they understand that velocity is critical for strikeouts? Do they appreciate the strikeout YET? I mean come on. This really gets at the two worst perceptions about the Twins - that they are behind the curve with respect to strikeouts (which is reinforced by fact) and the perception that they prefer veteran mediocrity to more talented, younger players.

 

What are we doing here. Are we just trying to complete the games. Eat the innings. Go through the motions. Or are we trying to win? Get Burdi up. Get whoever else throws strikes at 97+ up. Show Stauffer and Duensing the door. Flip a coin and send one of Pelfrey or Milone packing.

 

There is too much pitching!

    • Mike Sixel, ericchri, jokin and 1 other like this

The elephants in the room are definitely Pelfrey and Stauffer.

 

I would not lose Graham tokeep anyone of the names suggested.

 

Hamburger is a solid reserve to stash at Rochester. He is not going anywhere.

 

Boyer is a placeholder if nothing else until Burdi, Reed, Jones or someone graduates early.

 

Thielbar has options. I'm not sure how much time Thompson ahs with the Twins, and if that time is needed. Both are lefties and teams are looking for lefties. Trade one or the other and send the other down. We only need tow lefties (Milone) in the bullpen. But, can Duensing face more than a batter or two anymore?

 

Just went out that the Twins have two spots to fill with someone. Jared Burton is available. Sigh. So is Joe Beimel. Double-sigh. Didn't I read that Jose Mijares is looking for a job? Maybe we can talk Cole DeVries into returning. Anyone hear from Pedro Hernandez, by the way.

 

Where is Jesse Crain when you need him, and why did Pat Neshek blow off the cheap Twins?

 

Ultimately, it really shouldnt be that hard. Get rid of all the also rans and let's keep Pryor, Oliveros and Darnell in the bullpen for now.

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stringer bell
Mar 27 2015 03:53 AM

Of the names listed in this thread here is my opinion:I think Darnell and Achter could be 40-man casualties and I think that would be fine.There is a pretty large number of guys who didn't make it who could be decent contributors for the Twins (don't give up on them):Oliveros, Pryor, Pressly, Tonkin.Hamburger has mostly looked good for the Twins, I think he is the last cut.Graham has made the club, but could knock himself off the ledge with a bad performance or two in the next week.I wouldn't want more than one fifth starter candidate in the bullpen.If Pelfrey could add a couple ticks to the fastball and utilize his new change-up, he might actually work well there.Milone should either make the rotation or go to Rochester.Boyer probably makes the club, too, on merit, unless the Twins decide to keep two #5 starter losers in the 'pen.I am not a big Thielbar fan, if he is pushed out this spring, so be it.He should be able to get another chance if he performs well in Rochester.So, if I am in charge (and you can't unmake the moves already made) the bullpen is Pelfrey, Graham, Boyer, Fien, Duensing, Stauffer, Perkins.Short leashes for most of those guys, with a nearly equal number champing at the bit in Rochester.Midseason could bring Reed, Burdi and the rest.

[quote name="Willihammer" post="316042" timestamp="1427430792"]
 
Do the Twins know what a velocity aging curve looks like? Do they understand that velocity is critical for strikeouts? Do they appreciate the strikeout YET? I mean come on. This really gets at the two worst perceptions about the Twins - that they are behind the curve with respect to strikeouts (which is reinforced by fact) and the perception that they prefer veteran mediocrity to more talented, younger players.
 
Your post touches on the real elephant in the room. The FO. They are in love with aging, seemingly safe veterans. And in certain times on certain teams, that's the way to go. But this is not one of those teams. It's been in the dregs for years, and that is only after cleaning up in a weak division for years before that. Mediocrity has been a way of life here. And hard decisive action is hardly taken. While not a player this thread is specifically discussing, I will use Kendrys Morales as an example. The Twins in their faux playoff run told a flyer on Morales. The team really did not need an out of shape, slow footed, DH. It needed a solid starter, and someone who could catch a fly ball. Luckily Morales stunk his way out of town, if he had hit over .230 and not jogged to first base we would have signed him to a 3 year extension. My point is, I have no problem with trying to get some value, on a short leash, from some veterans to start the season. IF, I had any faith that when inevitably some did not work out, they would be moved. The decision to bring up younger players seems to be made out of desperation only. I don't see many instances of trading a "adequate" veteran to make room for a high upside prospect.
    • Mike Sixel likes this
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nicksaviking
Mar 27 2015 07:22 AM

 

We pay scouts and managers to tell us when guys are ready and if they believe their minor league success will translate to big league success.  I agree, there are points when you need to see what you've got, but as of now, we're tied for first place.  If this season is another Jesse Crain-wreck, we'll have plenty of time to see prospect, fringe prospect, and AAAA all-stars alike.  In recent memory, Fien and before him Burton were a couple of guys who made Twins games worth watching past the 5th inning.  I'm not saying that Achter or Tonkin, etc. will never be pieces.  I'm saying that I'm not going to dump a roster guy like Stauffer to make sure they get big league innings just because one of them might be the next Tony Swarzak. 

 

So young bullpen arms shouldn't be called upon unless the team is in the toilet?That doesn't sound like a way to breed a winning atmosphere.

 

There's always room for an arguement regarding potential vs past production but the "vets" in the pen hardly have a track record to carry much weight. 

    • Mike Sixel and Oxtung like this

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