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Zulgad: Is MLB really making return about dollars and cents?

Minnesota Twins Talk Today, 08:45 AM
https://www.skornort...lars-and-cents/   The owners have made their proposal to the players. The players association will now have t...
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2020 MINOR LEAGUE SEASON

Twins Minor League Talk Yesterday, 04:03 PM
Baseball America takes a look at what is happening in the minors, a season that would now have been a couple of weeks old.   https:/...
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Virtual Twins Baseball Megathread

Minnesota Twins Talk Yesterday, 04:03 PM
Moving forward this will house every game-thread in the comments below until real baseball hopefully comes back. I should have done this...
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Recent Proposal

Minnesota Twins Talk Yesterday, 10:29 AM
https://theathletic....=freedailyemail   The players have rejected the owners last proposal, the players have proposed a longer seas...
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Too Far From Town: Elizabethton Twins

Twins Minor League Talk 28 May 2020
This seems to be a free article in the Baseball Prospectus series on minor league teams in danger of elimination.   https://www.base...
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Recent Blogs


Twins Front Office Testing Fate in Waiting

Make no mistake, as good as the Twins front office has been, they are absolute wordsmiths. Having walked back their original plan this offseason, they are now facing a situation where they could be shut out of necessary roster additions. With only final touches remaining, it’s time to get serious about stepping up.
Image courtesy of © Dale Zanine-USA TODAY Sports
Dan Hayes wrote a story on Tuesday at The Athletic that focused on the acquisitions of Rich Hill and Homer Bailey. The former is a top-notch arm that struggles to stay healthy, and the latter represents a solid addition to the floor of the starting rotation. What neither of them accomplish is the impact pitching that Minnesota suggested they were targeting. Thad Levine told Hayes, “The one thing we’ve learned over the years is that you can’t just have a Plan A. Tomorrow’s Plan B becomes the next day’s Plan A.” Derek Falvey went on to suggest he “may rue the day I ever mentioned that (impact) as a singular word.”

More swiftly than a dancing Michael Jackson, Minnesota’s top duo is moonwalking their opening comments backwards.

There is truth to Falvey’s suggestion that the current Twins roster has impact all over it. They won 101 games, returned a significant amount of talent, and have added to the point where they are better now than when the season ended. All of that is true, but the goal this winter should be to expand upon the opportunity currently in front of them.

You can’t fault the Twins for being shut out by uninterested free agents. Gerrit Cole wasn’t coming here, and Stephen Strasburg wanted a Washington reunion. Madison Bumgarner told everyone "No" because he loves his horses, and Zack Wheeler preferred family ties (although the Twins offer being $18MM short probably made that decision easier). Where blame can start to be placed is when obvious opportunity is met with only moderate execution.

Enter Josh Donaldson.

As Levine suggested, the Twins plans have now shifted. The starting pitching market is largely bare, and unless they’re going to swing a trade (they still should), Hill and Bailey represent the lone new additions. Upgrading elsewhere makes sense, and the former Braves third basemen is an ideal fit for the Bomba Squad.

With C.J. Cron onto Detroit, Rocco Baldelli is tasked with designating a new first basemen. Miguel Sano has proven limited, especial going to his left at third base, and would be an ideal candidate to make the switch. Generating 15 DRS a year ago, Donaldson would provide a defensive boon in the infield, and it’s a unit that needs to take a significant step forward. Throw in his .900 OPS from 2019 and you’ve got the makings of a superstar.

Reports suggest that Donaldson has at least three four-year offers, coming from Minnesota, Washington, and Atlanta. He’s had the Twins ask for over two weeks though, and that’s where my problem lies. The Nationals are synonymous for deferrals, so it’s fair to assume that could be prohibiting them from being in contention. Atlanta is best positioned geographically, and it was said the third basemen was simply waiting on a guaranteed fourth year from his hometown club. Dangling in front of him is the Twins payday that’s not quite good enough to make a decision.

Ken Rosenthal reported on Friday night that Donaldson is waiting for a team to hit his number, believed to be near $110 million. There's possibility Donaldson is angling for Atlanta to be his destination while increasing the take; after all suggestions indicate the Braves will get an opportunity to match before this is done. What also is apparent through Ronsethal's report is that Minnesota isn't there. Expected to be around the 4yr/$100MM range, the Twins leave it to chance to dictate an outcome. Derek Falvey should be on the phone with MVP Sports Group offering up $120 million over four and calling it a day.

We can discuss value forever, and there's inherent risk any time you sign a big-dollar free agent. The reality though, is that injury concerns don't subside simply because you end negotiations at $100 million. Also, after pivoting to this plan, are you really interested in going to Plan C because the cost of what amounts to a relief arm ($5 million AAV over the four years) is too much?
It’s probably unfair to be frustrated about simply being "in" on free agents. That’s going to happen, and you’re not completely interested in every player you’ve been tied to. Minnesota has been set on two players this offseason however, and they’re now in jeopardy of losing the second because of playing the value game. At some point need and opportunity should factor into the discussion, and by the time Falvey and Levine get there this time around, it may be too late.

This offseason would presently be graded as a “C” which is fine if you’re ok with status quo. Looking to take the next step, and truly capitalize on your opportunity, pushing for an “A” is a must. There’s one bullet left, but you actually have to take the shot.

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87 Comments

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Doctor Gast
Jan 05 2020 11:39 AM

Donaldson is a family man (which isn`t bad) he wants to be near mom & family. He doesn`t need the $ , he wants it help out his family

Donaldson is a family man (which isn`t bad) he wants to be near mom & family. He doesn`t need the $ , he wants it help out his family


Do you have a link for that? Or is this speculation?
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Doctor Gast
Jan 05 2020 12:09 PM

 

Do you have a link for that? Or is this speculation?

 

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Doctor Gast
Jan 05 2020 12:11 PM

I don`t have the link ready but I saw clip where he bought his mom a new expensive car

I don`t have the link ready but I saw clip where he bought his mom a new expensive car


That's quite a leap from bought mom a car (like every pro athlete) to doesn't care about money.

 

Toronto has a HUGE Asian community so that likely helped them in signing Ryu.We have no idea how much of an influence that had on him, but they are excited to have him:

https://toronto.ctvn...1?clipId=104070

 

You seem to be hung up on WE DIDN'T OFFER HIM ENOUGH MONEY.What do you think it would have taken?Also, do you understand he has pitched more than 90 innings twice in the last five seasons?I am kind of mystified as to how you or anyone could be so up in arms about not giving a pitcher like this 100 million dollars.Please explain that one.

First, the narrative was he wouldn't leave the west coast. Then he goes to Toronto and you're telling us this spin job. He went where he got the most money.

 

What would it have taken? A better offer than Toronto, which we never made. There is no evidence we were the highest bidder on any FA we missed on and got turned down because they didn't want to play in MN. If our offers are less, of course no one will sign here. And if they're equal they probably won't either. If you want to play in FA, you have to overpay. 

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What would it have taken? A better offer than Toronto, which we never made.



This. A million times over, this.

Improved AL Central, no juiced balls, plenty of regression candidates, status quo with roster.I'm beginning to think that without impact player acquisitions, last year may prove to be the outlier.Sure we can hope for help from the farm, but that's tenuous reassurance.I like the front office's hiring of Rocco, etc... but on the player acquisition front they're net neutral for me - positives for Cruz and Odo, negatives for losing Pressly and Escobar.It's difficult for me to see the confidence in the FO in this area as more than mere optimism.I just think we don't have enough data yet.

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Doctor Gast
Jan 05 2020 03:22 PM

It`s a reasonable opinion, Which I believe is pretty on. I`m a family man & if I had the opportunity of a ton of money w/ a chance to make close to 100 million. The extra millions would not make me choosea team far from family. I`d love to give tickets away to family to come watch me play on a daily basis. & I`m saying Donaldson is like me for what I`ve see n

It`s a reasonable opinion, Which I believe is pretty on. I`m a family man & if I had the opportunity of a ton of money w/ a chance to make close to 100 million. The extra millions would not make me choose a team far from family. I`d love to give tickets away to family to come watch me play on a daily basis. & I`m saying Donaldson is like me for what I`ve see n


So, speculation.
That's fine, I was just checking because your post was stated as if it were factual knowledge.

Thad Levine told Hayes, “The one thing we’ve learned over the years is that you can’t just have a Plan A. Tomorrow’s Plan B becomes the next day’s Plan A.” Derek Falvey went on to suggest he “may rue the day I ever mentioned that (impact) as a singular word.”

 

Talk talk talk. Actions mean something. Talk, not so much. Hurry up and wait. 

I hope, as little as I expect it, that our young pitchers have actually been 'identified' by the pitching experts, and surprise us all, because that is the impact that is left.

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First, the narrative was he wouldn't leave the west coast. Then he goes to Toronto and you're telling us this spin job. He went where he got the most money.

 

What would it have taken? A better offer than Toronto, which we never made. There is no evidence we were the highest bidder on any FA we missed on and got turned down because they didn't want to play in MN. If our offers are less, of course no one will sign here. And if they're equal they probably won't either. If you want to play in FA, you have to overpay. 

"the narrative" was not created by me and I am not beholden to it.At no point did I weigh in on Ryu wanting to stay on the west coast, but I can totally see it.It is not "spin job" to say it makes sense Ryu ended up in Toronto. Not to me, at least. There are a lot of Asians in Toronto.I know this.I have lived in upstate NY for almost my whole life and have met my share of Ontarians.Ryu going to Toronto makes sense to me.I don't feel the need to explain it to you any further.

 

As far as overpaying for a free agent, when I am inspired by a particular player that I think fits and makes sense I will call for the Twins to overpay.You have called for them to overpay for ALL OF the five guys discussed this winter.That is your strategy and it makes no sense to me.Battle on, though....I like the emotion.Would have liked to see you join me after the 3-and-out but I guess that didn't upset you quite as much as not signing free agents this winter.That is just odd to me, but I respect the fact that you complain--even if I don't think it makes any sense at all for each of the five guys we did not signNot one bit of sense.

"the narrative" was not created by me and I am not beholden to it. At no point did I weigh in on Ryu wanting to stay on the west coast, but I can totally see it. It is not "spin job" to say it makes sense Ryu ended up in Toronto. Not to me, at least. There are a lot of Asians in Toronto. I know this. I have lived in upstate NY for almost my whole life and have met my share of Ontarians. Ryu going to Toronto makes sense to me. I don't feel the need to explain it to you any further.

As far as overpaying for a free agent, when I am inspired by a particular player that I think fits and makes sense I will call for the Twins to overpay. You have called for them to overpay for ALL OF the five guys discussed this winter. That is your strategy and it makes no sense to me. Battle on, though....I like the emotion. Would have liked to see you join me after the 3-and-out but I guess that didn't upset you quite as much as not signing free agents this winter. That is just odd to me, but I respect the fact that you complain--even if I don't think it makes any sense at all for each of the five guys we did not sign Not one bit of sense.


Not all five, one of the five. Or the money goes to the owners. Players or owners. I'd rather they add players.
    • Twins33, Minny505 and Battle ur tail off like this

 

So, speculation.
That's fine, I was just checking because your post was stated as if it were factual knowledge.

It's going to be cold tomorrow.THat's speculation, too.

 

HOnestly, man.You seem utterly incredulous too what the guy just said.I tend to believe that if you have 6 or 7 million dollars tucked away and aren't a complete stooge you can write your own ticket. I am willing to bet Donaldson isn't the greedy pig you assume that he is.I am willing to bet his family and his personal desires go beyond just money at this point.The guy has money already.He has a killer pension.What don't you get?

 

 

 

Not all five, one of the five. Or the money goes to the owners. Players or owners. I'd rather they add players.

 

Let's say we signed Donaldson to the 4/110 deal he wanted and we outbid Toronto and signed Ryu to 4/100.Would that have satisfied you?

Let's say we signed Donaldson to the 4/110 deal he wanted and we outbid Toronto and signed Ryu to 4/100. Would that have satisfied you?


I would not have signed Donaldson if they paid that much for a pitcher
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I would not have signed Donaldson if they paid that much for a pitcher


Do you think we should have went higher to get Ryu?

It's going to be cold tomorrow. THat's speculation, too.

HOnestly, man. You seem utterly incredulous too what the guy just said. I tend to believe that if you have 6 or 7 million dollars tucked away and aren't a complete stooge you can write your own ticket. I am willing to bet Donaldson isn't the greedy pig you assume that he is. I am willing to bet his family and his personal desires go beyond just money at this point. The guy has money already. He has a killer pension. What don't you get?


Not sure where you got "greedy pig" from anything I said.

I simply asked for clarification on whether he was speculating, or posting something factual that he read somewhere. That's it.
    • SQUIRREL, Mike Sixel, Oxtung and 1 other like this

"the narrative" was not created by me and I am not beholden to it. At no point did I weigh in on Ryu wanting to stay on the west coast, but I can totally see it. It is not "spin job" to say it makes sense Ryu ended up in Toronto. Not to me, at least. There are a lot of Asians in Toronto. I know this. I have lived in upstate NY for almost my whole life and have met my share of Ontarians. Ryu going to Toronto makes sense to me. I don't feel the need to explain it to you any further.

As far as overpaying for a free agent, when I am inspired by a particular player that I think fits and makes sense I will call for the Twins to overpay. You have called for them to overpay for ALL OF the five guys discussed this winter. That is your strategy and it makes no sense to me. Battle on, though....I like the emotion. Would have liked to see you join me after the 3-and-out but I guess that didn't upset you quite as much as not signing free agents this winter. That is just odd to me, but I respect the fact that you complain--even if I don't think it makes any sense at all for each of the five guys we did not sign Not one bit of sense.

what does "a lot of Asians in Toronto" have to do with anything?

And for the record, Ryu is Korean. Not "Asian."

But I doubt that had much if anything to do with him signing with Toronto.

what does "a lot of Asians in Toronto" have to do with anything?

And for the record, Ryu is Korean. Not "Asian."

But I doubt that had much if anything to do with him signing with Toronto.


Korea is in Asia, Chief. I know that Toronto has a very large Asian population, but more importantly, it also has close to 100,000 South Koreans. He doesn’t speak English. He speaks Korean.

You can doubt the importance of this fact all you want. Why would he not want to be in a place where there is a community of people who can feel at home with and socialize with? Another place that wouldn’t have surprised me is with the Mets. There is perhaps an even larger Korean community in Queens.

You can get on your high horse and insist this isn’t a factor. I tend to be more open to things like this whereas you are a “money talks” kind of guy. I believe in that to an extent, but it’s not EVERYTHING.

You’ll learn eventually.

Looking at the relative amount of improvement or lack there of, I'm guessing that without a big trade to get an established starter for the Twins, we're back to the days of brawling with the ChiSox over the division title with Cleveland on the outside looking in.

 

 

 

Korea is in Asia, Chief. 

I know. I spoke Korean for a living in the Air Force. Lived 60 miles south of Seoul for two years. I can guarantee you he doesn't identify with other "Asians." Ask a Korean how he feels about the Japanese occupation of Korea, for example.

 

And per this report, there were 21000 Koreans in MN as of 2014:

 

 https://www.tcdailyp...rean-americans/

 

You're just rationalizing. Finding excuses for why the Twin can't sign any free agents of note. That's your right, of course, but I'm going to point out the holes in your excuses. That's my right.

 

And in this case, I'm willing to wager I know a great deal more about Korea, and Koreans, than you.

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jorgenswest
Jan 06 2020 09:03 AM
Ryu is the one top pitcher that the Twins could have signed and they failed to recognize it early enough. Had they gone after him first they might have signed him at better than 4/80 but even late they could have gone 4/90 and signed him.

I get the arguments that It would be a mistake to sign Ryu to 4/90. I don’t buy the arguments that no one would come to Minnesota. The Twins need to do a better job of identifying that player early before they are they have the leverage of the last remaining option in free agency.
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sweetmusicviola16
Jan 06 2020 10:03 AM

Bottom line is we got no "impact" pitching, positive impact anyway. So how about our FO puts their money where their mouths are. We keep hearing about our prospects and how good they are and blah blah blah. Lets see them sign up Lewis, Kiriloff and Larnach for 6 year terms like CWS has done with Jimenez and Robert. If this is what we believe in, then show us. Enough of talk about windows and impact. Enough of shoving BS up ours.

I know. I spoke Korean for a living in the Air Force. Lived 60 miles south of Seoul for two years. I can guarantee you he doesn't identify with other "Asians." Ask a Korean how he feels about the Japanese occupation of Korea, for example.

And per this report, there were 21000 Koreans in MN as of 2014:

https://www.tcdailyp...rean-americans/

You're just rationalizing. Finding excuses for why the Twin can't sign any free agents of note. That's your right, of course, but I'm going to point out the holes in your excuses. That's my right.

And in this case, I'm willing to wager I know a great deal more about Korea, and Koreans, than you.

I defer to your formidable knowledge of Korean, but I must say I’m stunned that you reject the notion that Toronto’s fairly large Korean community had little to do with his decision. If he were a fluent speaker of English I’d not even bring it up. He isn’t.

This is born out of the same notion that urban enclaves form to give immigrant groups an easier transition. All kinds of ethic groups have done this from time immemorial.

Another 10 or 15 million likely wasn’t going to land him. And had we done it that would have proven to be a mistake.

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