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Charley Walters: Twins-Saints partnership talks quietly o...

Twins Minor League Talk Yesterday, 09:54 PM
Very interesting article in Pioneer Press from Charlie Walters. https://www.twinciti...uietly-ongoing/ There’s been a few suggestions in...
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And then there is the case of the Blue Jays to consider

Other Baseball Yesterday, 07:56 PM
https://www.sportsne...measures-place/ Here we are, theoretically two weeks away from Opening Day. The Blue Jays aren’t yet certain where...
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Player Opt-outs

Other Baseball Yesterday, 06:24 PM
While we think about if a season happens or not.I started thinking about the opt out clauses by players, and what they will do.I tried to...
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Watch the Live Play-by-Play of the Virtual Twins Playoffs

Minnesota Twins Talk Yesterday, 10:33 AM
With the real Twins around the corner, I have elected to sim to the playoffs to try and tease how the real club will do this fall, and as...
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2020 Game Thread Intros

Minnesota Twins Talk Yesterday, 09:09 AM
Yes, I believe there will be baseball! Further, the Twins would be a popular pick this year to advance to the playoffs and maybe, just ma...
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Shoring Up Twins Bullpen Will Be a Mighty Challenge

Are great relievers born? Made? Produced artificially in a laboratory somewhere deep in the Nevadan desert?

We don't know the answer. If you think you do, you're probably wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but that's just the nature of relief pitching. The Twins are living proof of its caprice and volatility. Which is why, as Minnesota embarks on a quest to improve its needy bullpen, they face a mighty challenge.
Image courtesy of Dan Hamilton-USA TODAY Sports
Let's review the facts as they stand. The most intriguing pieces currently in the Twins' bullpen are:
  • Taylor Rogers, formerly an 11th-round pick turned nondescript minor-league starter, who transitioned into relief duty immediately in the majors, and blossomed into a top-tier setup man over three short years.
  • Ryne Harper, a former 37th-round pick who toiled in the minors for nine years before making the Twins out of camp this spring on a minor-league deal. He debuted as a 30-year-old rookie.
  • Blake Parker, the team's biggest offseason bullpen splash. His smallish free agent contract as a castoff from the Angels was whittled down further after his physical. I hesitate to call him "intriguing" at this point, given his trendline, but overall he's gotten it done.
  • Tyler Duffey, Trevor May, Zack Littell: All former middling prospects as starters, finding new gears as MLB relievers. Before you write off any of the three as flashes in the pan, or overachieving mediocrities, go back and read Rogers' blurb again. As I watch Duffey, May and Littell develop into lethal flamethrowers, I do wonder how differently their careers might have gone if the organization had committed to their role changes as quickly and decisively as with Rogers.
With all due respect to Matt Magill and Mike Morin, I don't quite put either at the same level of faith as those above, but each one fits the narrative: discarded minor-league pitchers finding surprising success in the majors.

Meanwhile, here are the pitchers conspicuously NOT contributing to the current campaign:
  • Addison Reed, who signed the largest free agent reliever deal in franchise history 18 months ago. The Twins ate a good portion of it when they released him last month.
  • Trevor Hildenberger, who was the team's most reliable bullpen arm for about a year before falling apart at the seams midway through 2018. He's currently on the injured list at Triple-A.
  • Fernando Romero, the former top pitching prospect who's flamed out in multiple stints with the Twins this year, and hasn't looked a whole lot better in Triple-A.
I know the common refrain on Romero – especially with the benefit of hindsight: "Why mess with him? They shoulda left him as a starter." But that ignores two things: 1) he wasn't throwing or holding up all that well as a starter, and 2) I mean, look at the examples of Duffey/May/Littell. There are certainly downsides to waffling and delaying. With Romero, it's an unaffordable luxury because he'll be out of options next spring.

The malfunctions with all three of these players are largely driving the urgency to make improvements. But each of them, and Reed especially, epitomizes the reason that's a much taller order than many clamoring fans would like to believe. Anyone expressing certainty that Craig Kimbrel would've been a decisive upgrade is kidding themselves.

Reed, like Kimbrel, generated less free agent demand than expected, given his backend pedigree, but he still had all the makings of a bullpen stud. He was younger and less weathered than Kimbrel. And in the early portion of his contract, Reed looked the part. But his drop-off was both rapid and ruthless.

And the thing is, he's not alone. Reed is a somewhat extreme version of an all-too-common outcome. I just checked in on the top RP options listed in the latest Offseason Handbook, and there are vastly more busts than even moderately decent values. Kimbrel still hasn't pitched in the majors. David Robertson's thrown only seven innings due to injury issues. Andrew Miller's been mediocre. Kelvin Herrera, Jeurys Familia and Joe Kelly have been terrible. Cody Allen was so bad he's already been cut by the Angels, and signed by Minnesota to a minors deal.

Allen now feels like a long shot to make any kind of meaningful impact; but, as you go through the names above, doesn't that feel true for almost anyone? Granted, some of these guys had their red flags, but all had strong track records, and signed for many millions of dollars. To a man, they've all floundered.

Meanwhile, the Twins are finding their most credible help in a 30-year-old journeyman and a bunch of failed minor-league starters. And most of these guys are hitting their own skids at times.

What all of this suggests to me:

First, it's really hard to be a relief pitcher in the major leagues right now, with stacked lineups of aggressive upper-cut swingers just waiting to feast on premium heat. This is borne out by the numbers: MLB relievers, as a whole, have a 4.50 ERA this year, up from 4.08 last year and higher than their starting counterparts (!).

Second, and not unrelatedly: it's going to be very difficult for the Twins to solve this problem. Difficult, and stressful. They aren't short on resources by any means, but that's not the problem. Those onerous contracts plaguing other teams who splurged on the relief market last winter are one thing; when you start giving up valuable prospects, stakes are raised, especially for a team in Minnesota's position.

There are a lot of seemingly tantalizing relief options out there on the trade market. We've been covering them in a series of profiles here on the site, so this might be a good time to get caught up:There are compelling cases to be made for several of the above, plus some others who haven't yet been covered. I myself am quite high on Raisel Iglesias. But no matter who I might favor, data shows there's an overwhelming chance I'll be wrong. The same is true for you. Again, I apologize for the bluntness.

But of course, it doesn't matter if we're right – only the guys leading the front office. What's most important is that they buy into what's to come, rather than what's already gone.

If only it were that easy.

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76 Comments

Great relievers are developed....then traded to the Astros for marginal prospects that will never see Target Field.
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yarnivek1972
Jun 25 2019 05:58 PM

I'm not trying to be that judgmental of the Twins coaching staff. I think a player's developmental progression is highly path dependent, and that the dynamics of when/how coaches work with a player aren't necessarily recreate-able. I don't blame the Twins for every single played that has found success in other organizations. Sure, I think you can make judgments of the organization's ability based on the broad pattern of players, but certainly not on any one specific player. Using Pressly as an example, it is fairly well known that the Astros came to him after the trade and presented data for how to change his pitch mix. The Twins could have presented the exact same information, but Pressly has a much longer track record with the Twins organization, and there might not be the same buy-in, especially since he was already pitching as well as he ever had in his career. The Astros, by virtue of being a fresh voice and having explicitly sought Pressly out, could approach these changes in a very different way than the Twins could.

And yes, Pressly was pitching well prior to the trade, but you need to put a lot of weight on his last 10 appearances with the Twins if you think you could predict his Astros level of success based on his Twins performance. Now, don't get me wrong, I think he was a solid bet to be above-average going forward; I did not predict "top 5 reliever in baseball". As an interesting juxtaposition, the Pirates acquired Keone Kela at the same deadline. While not a perfect analogy to Pressly, he was also a young, very good reliever with team control remaining. He is currently on the 60-day IL with a shoulder issue. Teams only have so much control over preventing injuries. Are we having this conversation if Pressly was the one that ended up injured? Reliever performance is historically quite volatile, I don't hold it against the Twins FO that they thought it was a sell-high moment for Pressly.

Going back to the small sample size, what is everyone's prediction for Duffey going forward? His last ten appearances compared to Pressly's prior to the trade:
Pressly: 10.0 IP, 0.90 ERA, 33.3 K%, 7.1 BB%, 1.10 WHIP
Duffey: 13.0 IP, 0.69 ERA, 32.1 K%, 7.1 BB%, 1.08 WHIP

I've been extremely optimistic about Duffey for weeks now, but I'm not ready to anoint him a top-10 relief pitcher going forward. But at least superficially, there are a lot of similarities between Duffey this year and Pressly's 2018.


I don’t think anyone is saying that the Twins should have known they were giving up one of the best relievers in MLB for a couple lotto tickets. But they damn sure should have known they were giving up the best reliever THEY HAD by a considerable margin for those lotto tickets.
    • birdwatcher likes this
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birdwatcher
Jun 25 2019 06:05 PM

 

I'm not trying to be that judgmental of the Twins coaching staff. I think a player's developmental progression is highly path dependent, and that the dynamics of when/how coaches work with a player aren't necessarily recreate-able. I don't blame the Twins for every single played that has found success in other organizations. Sure, I think you can make judgments of the organization's ability based on the broad pattern of players, but certainly not on any one specific player. Using Pressly as an example, it is fairly well known that the Astros came to him after the trade and presented data for how to change his pitch mix. The Twins could have presented the exact same information, but Pressly has a much longer track record with the Twins organization, and there might not be the same buy-in, especially since he was already pitching as well as he ever had in his career. The Astros, by virtue of being a fresh voice and having explicitly sought Pressly out, could approach these changes in a very different way than the Twins could. 

 

And yes, Pressly was pitching well prior to the trade, but you need to put a lot of weight on his last 10 appearances with the Twins if you think you could predict his Astros level of success based on his Twins performance. Now, don't get me wrong, I think he was a solid bet to be above-average going forward; I did not predict "top 5 reliever in baseball". As an interesting juxtaposition, the Pirates acquired Keone Kela at the same deadline. While not a perfect analogy to Pressly, he was also a young, very good reliever with team control remaining. He is currently on the 60-day IL with a shoulder issue. Teams only have so much control over preventing injuries. Are we having this conversation if Pressly was the one that ended up injured? Reliever performance is historically quite volatile, I don't hold it against the Twins FO that they thought it was a sell-high moment for Pressly.

 

Going back to the small sample size, what is everyone's prediction for Duffey going forward? His last ten appearances compared to Pressly's prior to the trade:

Pressly: 10.0 IP, 0.90 ERA, 33.3 K%, 7.1 BB%, 1.10 WHIP

Duffey: 13.0 IP, 0.69 ERA, 32.1 K%, 7.1 BB%, 1.08 WHIP

 

I've been extremely optimistic about Duffey for weeks now, but I'm not ready to anoint him a top-10 relief pitcher going forward. But at least superficially, there are a lot of similarities between Duffey this year and Pressly's 2018.

 

 

Terrific post.

The excuses I’m reading regarding the Pressley trade are starting to get a little rich.

1). Is they can’t develop pitchers like some other organizations, they’re just not that good at developing pitching. Wasn’t that one of the main bullet points when we brought them in?

2). People are saying the front office needed more than the significant amount of time he spent patching well for this club. Really? Then why would the Astros target him for trade? They had nothing more than game tape and scouting reports.

3). The sentiment that Astros got lucky, and he just happened to explode after arriving in Houston is just flat out ludicrous.

4). If they thought this team wouldn’t compete in 2019, they didn’t have a very good handle on what they had here. It’s Rosario, Kepler, Buxton, Polanco, Berrios, Gibson, Odiorizzi, Garvey, Castro, etc that are driving this team’s success. Not Jonathan Schoop or Marwin Gonzalez. They shouldn’t get a pass for their faulty assessment of their own team.

At the end of the day, they got brought and paid to make the right decisions. To this point, it’s primarily been the previous regime’s players that have turned things around. And now, their prized number 1 overall pick is flailing in A ball.

The Astros turned around and laughed all the way to the back, with arguably the best reliever in the game right now, for what amounts to almost nothing. Why is so hard to some to admit that Falvine got taken behind the woodshed by superior baseball minds. Not only that, but could’ve well put the nail in the coffin of this current team’s World Series aspirations before they even knew they existed.

I need to start seeing more out of Falvine in terms of player acquisition. So many have chosen to blindly follow these guys because they’re young, cool, and follow all the trendy analytics. I’ll base my opinion on results. This year has been great....but it’s far from over and we’re seeing the seams start to fray.
    • ChrisKnutson and Doomtints like this
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birdwatcher
Jun 25 2019 06:17 PM

 

I wasn't for the Pressly deal either because his contract wasn't expiring, but when I personally rank it... I put it below the loss of Anderson because:

 

Because we still don't know what we got in return from Houston... Who knows... we might have got something. We know we got nothing in return for Anderson but yeah... I agree with you. Keep your MLB assets with the control. So both were questionable in my opinion.  

 

One area where you and I might differ is the trust in the evaluation process. I trust the front office to better at player evaluation then the average bear and I have no issues with the current front office.

 

However... I can't stress this enough... the margins are razor thin, so thin that every front office makes big evaluation mistakes frequently enough that you can't give them the benefit of the doubt to have the science down pat. This team was going nowhere in 2018... Belisle on this roster was pointless... You traded, Duke and Pressly out of the pen. It's time to start giving players the opportunity to show what they can do for 2019 and beyond. Not doing that was a waste of roster space and it's how you lose players that you should have kept. 

 

If the people doing the evaluations determined that Anderson wasn't major league capable therefore no reason to give him a look see in 2018.... They were wrong! That is just another example of how thin those margins are and why the professional evaluations can't be trusted... even if they are good at it.  

 

No matter what that small sample size ERA says currently... or his small sample size WAR. He is striking out two batters per inning. This the major leagues and not many pitchers can strike out batters at that pace at this level. We didn't give this type of arm a chance and now we have Morin on the roster who Baldelli will only use if the score is 10-0. 

 

Nick Anderson would be an important part of this current bullpen. They blew it and now we will have to give back our Pressly gains to reacquire a Pressly type when Anderson or Bard or Burdi might have lessened that need.  

 

This is part of the reason why I'm all about opportunity. This is why we can't let Morrison hog all the AB's. Every 660K player that helps you win games is money that can be applied toward more other players that can help you win games. Every 600K player you identify through performance is a rising stock for higher trade value.  

 

I respect the front office but in no way do I trust them and they shouldn't trust themselves either. Let the players prove it. It just makes these razor thin decisions so much easier. 

 

As for the screaming about it. I'm used to it. Hand your players the ball.:)

 

 

 

Well hells bells, now that you put it that way...you convinced me (although Belisle helped!) and now not giving Nick Anderson a chance was worse than not getting anything in return. (Well, we got Brian Schales)

 

Wouldn't you love it if some access media type corralled our Development Director and quizzed the bejesus out of him on these decisions? Not to call them out so much, because you and I know mistakes are inevitable and forgivable, but because it would be fascinating to know a lot more about their thought process, their philosophy, their strategy, and what goes into decisions to just let a guy like Nick Anderson walk with no real return on your considerable investment in his increased value.

    • Riverbrian likes this

 

Well hells bells, now that you put it that way...you convinced me (although Belisle helped!) and now not givinf Nick Anderson a chance was worse than not getting anything in return.

 

Wouldn't yo love it if some access media type corralled that Development Director and quizzed the bejesus out of him on these decisions? I mean, not to call them out so much, because you and I know mistakes are inevitable and forgivable, but because it would be fascinating to know a lot more about their thought process, their philosophy, their strategy, and what goes into decisions to just let a guy like Nick Anderson walk with no return on your considerable investment in his increased value.

 

I would Jeff Goldblum myself to the wall just to hear the inside discussions.:D

 

I'm not sure I'd want to hold their feet to the fire because they won't be the last mistakes they make. I probably made at least two mistakes at work today myself. 

 

I honestly believe that any front office can limit these type of mistakes... not by being better assessors of talent player by player but with an overall shift in the fundamentals of the identification of talent. 600K talents are gifts from the baseball gods. Why wouldn't a team out of contention do everything they can to identify 600K talent with mulitple years of control. 

 

Why Belisle? Why did Forsythe play every day? Maybe it's why Molitor isn't here. I don't know but wasting roster spots on those two blocked and filled two roster spots that could be used to find 600K talent for 2020. 

 

All they had to do was give Anderson the chance that he earned with his performance in Rochester. They chose Belise?

 

This is so logical... that I can't understand how a professional organization can't see it. Whoever decided that Anderson wasn't worth the effort was wrong. Whoever decided that Belisle made more sense for 2020 was wrong.

 

And now I don't trust them. But then again... keep in mind... I probably made a couple of mistakes at work today myself. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I think it is much more likely that the FO doubted that Pressly would become a top-10 reliever going forward. And that is a problem with the hindsight argument - there is no guarrantee that the Twins would have been able to unlock Pressly's full potential in the same way that the Astros did. 

 

I dunno ... mass media sure seemed to think he was a top-10 reliever at the time of the trade.

FWIW, on the day of the trade, Pressly ranked 10th among MLB relievers in xFIP- (min. 40 IP). :) Also 11th in K%.
    • birdwatcher and by jiminy like this

 

Great relievers are developed....then traded to the Astros for marginal prospects that will never see Target Field.

Have you returned to the future and you're telling us that Alcala and Celestino flame out, or are you just assuming that? Methinks Alcala is going to be a solid MLB reliever for the Twins at some point. The Astros likely won the trade but it won't be so bad if Alcala ends up as a high-leverage arm in the Twins pen in the future.

Have you returned to the future and you're telling us that Alcala and Celestino flame out, or are you just assuming that? Methinks Alcala is going to be a solid MLB reliever for the Twins at some point. The Astros likely won the trade but it won't be so bad if Alcala ends up as a high-leverage arm in the Twins pen in the future.


He's not now, when they need him. When can we expect this?
1) Duffey has a slider and 95mph fastball to go with his curve arsenal.

2) #freejhoanduran whip barely over 1. opponent ops .618. throws 100 mph now. No idea what he'll throw in 4 years if he blows a ucl and loses a year rehabbing.

 

He's not now, when they need him. When can we expect this?

I can't say I know what the plan with Alcala is. They've kept him as a starter at AA, but I really think he'd do well in the bullpen. I don't think they made the trade with the thought that Alcala would be in the majors in 2019.

 

What I don't get is that they never tried to shore up the bullpen. We traded Pressly, Rodney, and Duke and only added Parker... what was the plan? Was it the plan to hope Ryne Harper broke out into a good MLB reliever, to hope Hildenberger would rebound from a rough 2018? Why did they both to give Matt Belisle 25 outings last season, and why did they give Oliver Drake 19 outings and then just DFA him after he looked great?

 

I've liked Falvey & Levine's plan for the hitters and the starters... but I can't understand what they're doing with the pen. 

    • by jiminy likes this

 

He's not now, when they need him. When can we expect this?

Imagine in 2017 if the Twins would have traded all of their top 20 prospects to make a run.

The wouldn't have Kirilloff, Javier or Garver
but Gordon, Gonsalves, Romero, Jay, Diaz, Mejia, Blakenhorn, Chargois, Stewart, Burdi, Wade, Ynoa, Jorge, Rortvedt, Palka, Granite and Thorpe wouldn't really be missed.
Maybe Rortvedt and Thorpe?

 

What I am saying is get help NOW!

    • by jiminy likes this

The Royals just DFA'd Boxberger, so there's another one for Falvey's and Levine's collection at Rochester.

    • Mike Sixel and Tomj14 like this
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SpicyGarvSauce
Jun 26 2019 09:21 AM

A little late to the party, maybe, on this...but looking around the internet, I came across a SF Giants website that was putting together trade proposals with contenders, etc. Here are some of their proposed deals...

 

To Twins: LHP Will Smith
To Giants: SS Wander Javier, RHP Jhoan Duran, 1B/OF Brent Rooker

 

To Twins: LHP Madison Bumgarner, RHP Nick Vincent
To Giants: RHP Brusdar Graterol, 2B Yunior Severino, C Ryan Jeffers

 

IMO, that is way too much for Will Smith and probably an okay price for Bumgarner & Vincent...? Thoughts?

 

A little late to the party, maybe, on this...but looking around the internet, I came across a SF Giants website that was putting together trade proposals with contenders, etc. Here are some of their proposed deals...

 

To Twins: LHP Will Smith
To Giants: SS Wander Javier, RHP Jhoan Duran, 1B/OF Brent Rooker

 

To Twins: LHP Madison Bumgarner, RHP Nick Vincent
To Giants: RHP Brusdar Graterol, 2B Yunior Severino, C Ryan Jeffers

 

IMO, that is way too much for Will Smith and probably an okay price for Bumgarner & Vincent...? Thoughts?

 

Wayyyyyy too much, for both

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SpicyGarvSauce
Jun 26 2019 09:28 AM

 

Wayyyyyy too much, for both

 

Looking at it more, yeah, that is too much. Obviously teams think their own pieces/players are worth more than they actually are, which is probably where this comes from; especially since both of those guys would be rentals.

    • beckmt and HawksNest like this
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Brock Beauchamp
Jun 26 2019 09:31 AM

To Twins: LHP Will Smith
To Giants: SS Wander Javier, RHP Jhoan Duran, 1B/OF Brent Rooker

LOL, no.
    • HawksNest likes this

 

Looking at it more, yeah, that is too much. Obviously teams think their own pieces/players are worth more than they actually are, which is probably where this comes from; especially since both of those guys would be rentals.

 

Yeah, that's for sure what it is.Fans are almost always delusional (myself included, lol) about trade values, etc. 

    • birdwatcher and SpicyGarvSauce like this

 

A little late to the party, maybe, on this...but looking around the internet, I came across a SF Giants website that was putting together trade proposals with contenders, etc. Here are some of their proposed deals...

 

To Twins: LHP Will Smith
To Giants: SS Wander Javier, RHP Jhoan Duran, 1B/OF Brent Rooker

 

To Twins: LHP Madison Bumgarner, RHP Nick Vincent
To Giants: RHP Brusdar Graterol, 2B Yunior Severino, C Ryan Jeffers

 

IMO, that is way too much for Will Smith and probably an okay price for Bumgarner & Vincent...? Thoughts?

 

I'd guess those would be too high as well -- but it might be close to what the Giants would ask for in negotiations, right now.

I can't say I know what the plan with Alcala is. They've kept him as a starter at AA, but I really think he'd do well in the bullpen. I don't think they made the trade with the thought that Alcala would be in the majors in 2019.

What I don't get is that they never tried to shore up the bullpen. We traded Pressly, Rodney, and Duke and only added Parker... what was the plan? Was it the plan to hope Ryne Harper broke out into a good MLB reliever, to hope Hildenberger would rebound from a rough 2018? Why did they both to give Matt Belisle 25 outings last season, and why did they give Oliver Drake 19 outings and then just DFA him after he looked great?

I've liked Falvey & Levine's plan for the hitters and the starters... but I can't understand what they're doing with the pen.


I think it's pretty clear they thought Mejia and Romero would be good RPs. They then hoped on the back end. It didn't work, not sure why on Romero.....

Now they need to pivot.

I think it's pretty clear they thought Mejia and Romero would be good RPs. They then hoped on the back end. It didn't work, not sure why on Romero.....

Now they need to pivot.


I'd add hilde to that list, and maybe May but yeah. It's past time.
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stringer bell
Jun 26 2019 12:32 PM

I think relief pitchers are incredibly hard to project. Ordinary guys become borderline unhittable and guys who look very good seem to lose it (Cody Allen). 

 

Regarding Pressly, while his metrics seemed to indicate he might break out, during his tenure with the Twins, he was the ultimate tease (IMHO). He have a couple of dominant outings and then walk a guy or two and then lay a fastball in to a guy who was looking for it, Would he have flourished for the Twins? I guess we'll never know.

    • beckmt likes this
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yarnivek1972
Jun 26 2019 12:42 PM

I think relief pitchers are incredibly hard to project. Ordinary guys become borderline unhittable and guys who look very good seem to lose it (Cody Allen).

Regarding Pressly, while his metrics seemed to indicate he might break out, during his tenure with the Twins, he was the ultimate tease (IMHO). He have a couple of dominant outings and then walk a guy or two and then lay a fastball in to a guy who was looking for it, Would he have flourished for the Twins? I guess we'll never know.


He already was flourishing with the Twins. Would he have become otherworldly? Maybe not. But even if he maintained his 2018 Twins numbers he would be better than every Twins reliever not named Taylor Rogers, and those two would be pretty close.

 

Regarding Pressly, while his metrics seemed to indicate he might break out, during his tenure with the Twins, he was the ultimate tease (IMHO). He have a couple of dominant outings and then walk a guy or two and then lay a fastball in to a guy who was looking for it, Would he have flourished for the Twins? I guess we'll never know.

This is true to an extent, but by the end of July 2018 Pressly had four months of very strong work, fully backed up by peripherals, far more than he'd ever done before. Obviously the Twins bet on it not continuing, but I think it was enough that I would have bet Alcala/Celestino to see if it would continue.


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