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View Full Version : Game 17 - Twins vs Red Sox - April 23



Seth Stohs
04-23-2012, 05:11 PM
Twins Lineup:

Denard Span CF
Jamey Carroll SS
Joe Mauer C
Josh Willingham DH
Justin Morneau 1B
Ryan Doumit RF
Danny Valencia 3B
Chris Parmelee LF
Trevor Plouffe 2B

SP: Jason Marquis

Red Sox Lineup:

Mike Aviles SS
Ryan Sweeney RF
Dustin Pedroia 2B
Adrian Gonzalez 1B
David Ortiz DH
Kevin Youklis 3B
Jarrod Saltalamachhia C
Cody Ross LF
Marlon Byrd CF

SP: Jon Lester

TwinsGuy55422
04-23-2012, 05:24 PM
Wow...Parmelee starting in left field. It's great to see him get a start in the outfield, however I thought it would be in right field!

TwinsGuy55422
04-23-2012, 05:25 PM
Hopefully they get to Lester early and score some runs to start off the homestand.

woolhouse
04-23-2012, 05:45 PM
If Parmelee is going to get at-bats with Morneau, Mauer, Plouffe, and Doumit (and, apparently, Clete Thomas) he's going to have to play some right, some left, and some first... wherever Gardy decides he has room. This will be good for him.

TwinsGuy55422
04-23-2012, 05:54 PM
I agree. I'm just surprised his first major league start in the outfield was in our spacious left field instead of right.

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 06:46 PM
I really don't like to get down on these guys, but I'm calling 2 errors tonight with this defense. Plouffe, Doumit, Parmelee -- sound like shut down D! Here's to hoping that their bats make up for it.

Thrylos
04-23-2012, 06:49 PM
Yeah. That Range at OF and Plouffe at 2B are pretty scary. At least Marquis is an extreme ground ball pitcher. Just hope they hit them the other way

TwinsGuy55422
04-23-2012, 06:54 PM
Could definitely be a football score tonight...

TwinsGuy55422
04-23-2012, 07:04 PM
Good to see Tom Kelly in the booth tonight. I appreciate his honest analysis and willingness to call it like he sees it!

ashburyjohn
04-23-2012, 07:11 PM
Could definitely be a football score tonight...

14-0? It's possible. I don't think Lester is likely to set things up for a 14-13 outcome with another bad start though.

ashburyjohn
04-23-2012, 07:14 PM
And... Aviles slants left for a first down to start the game.

Sweeney is stopped for no gain. Pedroia rumbles up the middle for another long gain. And Gonzalez executes a sneak for the first score.

Eh, I'll stop now.

Highabove
04-23-2012, 07:19 PM
You gotta love Kelly "Richard, Mr. Willingham"

shs_59
04-23-2012, 07:37 PM
1st game NO BERT gotta love TK .

Seth Stohs
04-23-2012, 07:49 PM
Can't believe that Salty hit that pitch out. I think it was a terrific 0-2 pitch. That's just crazy.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 08:34 PM
Atta boy Danny. I'd still bench ya for awhile but atta boy. Well struck ball.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 08:45 PM
Now Danny is playing some D. Someone put a quarter in Danny today. Looks like he came to play.

Neinstein
04-23-2012, 08:58 PM
Could definitely be a football score tonight...


14-0? It's possible. I don't think Lester is likely to set things up for a 14-13 outcome with another bad start though.



6-3... One of those grueling, low-scoring nothing but field goals games.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 09:07 PM
Gotta love that 6 4 3 DP. Love it.

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 09:19 PM
Sending Marquis out for the 6th was questionable at best. Sending him out for the 7th was idiotic.

Neinstein
04-23-2012, 09:19 PM
6-3... One of those grueling, low-scoring nothing but field goals games.

Okay, okay...

maybe 9-6 ?

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 09:22 PM
Sending Marquis out for the 6th was questionable at best. Sending him out for the 7th was idiotic.

Yeah I'd say questionable call. He was in triple digits pitch count after 6.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 09:23 PM
Okay, okay...

maybe 9-6 ?

How bout 7 5 Twins. Call it a safety.

Neinstein
04-23-2012, 09:30 PM
How bout 7 5 Twins. Call it a safety.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!

stringer bell
04-23-2012, 09:45 PM
Burton & Duensing--bullpen doesn't look too bad. Still worried about Perkins and Cappsie, though.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 09:48 PM
Well timed lead off triple from Jamey.

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 09:48 PM
Love that hustle from Carroll!!!

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 09:48 PM
C mon Mauer be a pro here

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 09:50 PM
Love that hustle from Carroll!!!

I do to... Love it... However, that play ended up too close at third. Probably should have stayed At 2nd.

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 09:52 PM
that play ended up too close at third. Probably should have stayed At 2nd.
Agreed, if he were out that would be a huge mistake. Don't make the first or third out at third base.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 09:52 PM
Tough pitch... Can't blame Joe...

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 09:52 PM
Way to get that ball into the OF, Joe.

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 09:53 PM
Atta boy Mauer, grrrr...

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 09:53 PM
Tough pitch... Can't blame Joe...

That's why, in that situation, you don't let it get to 2 strikes. You look for a ball early in the count that you can elevate to the OF.

mikeee
04-23-2012, 09:58 PM
crap. runner on 3rd with none out, and now 2 out...

They fear Morneau...

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 10:00 PM
That's why, in that situation, you don't let it get to 2 strikes. You look for a ball early in the count that you can elevate to the OF.

I agree but that was a tough sequence of pitches for Mauer. Willingham hit that ball on the screws. Just to the wrong spot.

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 10:01 PM
I blame Mauer. That's just pathetic 3-6 batters, and super pathetic for the 3 hole.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 10:02 PM
Bummer

Thats all I wanted to type was bummer but I wasn't allowed to type anything under 10 characters.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 10:03 PM
I blame Mauer.

Yeah... I can live with that. For 23 million he has to come through no matter where the ball is located.

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 10:03 PM
I agree but that was a tough sequence of pitches for Mauer. Willingham hit that ball on the screws. Just to the wrong spot.

Mauer is supposed to be a #3 hitter. Go ahead run on third, no outs. That's not the first, or second, or third time in this young season that Mauer has failed to drive in a runner from third, often due to an overly passive approach at the plate. OBP is fine, but driving in runs is still a skill in baseball, no matter what drivel the statgeeks like to declare about RBI.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 10:05 PM
I can't stand Youklis batting stance. I coach a little baseball. One of my kids tried that thing with his hands. I took the bat out of his hands and beat the kid with it.

mikeee
04-23-2012, 10:08 PM
There are the boo-birds...

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 10:09 PM
If you are Velentine. Do you stay with Bard or go to Alceves?

one_eyed_jack
04-23-2012, 10:10 PM
You've gotta be kidding me.

It's one thing to let Papi or Pedroia or A-Gon beat you.

But Cody Ross?

Shane Wahl
04-23-2012, 10:11 PM
Really strange leaving Marquis out for the 7th.

Great for Jamey Carroll. Bad for Mauer and Willingham.

And then, Matt Capps . . .

Kneelb4zerg
04-23-2012, 10:13 PM
Mauer is supposed to be a #3 hitter. Go ahead run on third, no outs. That's not the first, or second, or third time in this young season that Mauer has failed to drive in a runner from third, often due to an overly passive approach at the plate. OBP is fine, but driving in runs is still a skill in baseball, no matter what drivel the statgeeks like to declare about RBI.

Look up his average with RISP before you start mouthing off.

adjacent
04-23-2012, 10:14 PM
Our closer has the worst ERA of the bullpen

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 10:20 PM
Look up his average with RISP before you start mouthing off.

We didn't need him to get a hit (average), we just needed a productive out: sac fly or sac hit. Relax.

ashburyjohn
04-23-2012, 10:20 PM
Our closer has the worst ERA of the bullpen

Not for long. Liriano will soon be joining him.

Shane Wahl
04-23-2012, 10:22 PM
I feel a little sick watching this game.

adjacent
04-23-2012, 10:25 PM
Not for long. Liriano will soon be joining him.
It does not make me feel any beter

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 10:25 PM
I feel a little sick watching this game.
Well that made me puke a little in my mouth.

ashburyjohn
04-23-2012, 10:25 PM
I feel a little sick watching this game.

I'd think less of you if you didn't. It was a bad way to lose.

deanlambrecht
04-23-2012, 10:30 PM
I can't stand Youklis batting stance. I coach a little baseball. One of my kids tried that thing with his hands. I took the bat out of his hands and beat the kid with it.

*clapping*

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 10:30 PM
Look up his average with RISP before you start mouthing off.

You can pull whatever stats out of your arse you choose.

Mauer has been a three hole hitter his entire career. Three seasons over 600 PAs, another 2 over 550. Never once driven in 100 runs.

There's a reason for that, and it isn't just lack of opportunities.

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 10:34 PM
As much as Mauer upsets me, I reserve most of my ire over this game for Gardenhire. Letting Marquis pitch the 6th was bad enough. He had bobbed and weaved his way through 5 innings, and had the lead. He got lucky to get through the 6th...bringing him out for the 7th was just completely idiotic. You end up bringing in the pen to pitch in the 7th anyway, only now you no longer have the lead.

TwinsGuy55422
04-23-2012, 10:49 PM
As much as Mauer upsets me, I reserve most of my ire over this game for Gardenhire. Letting Marquis pitch the 6th was bad enough. He had bobbed and weaved his way through 5 innings, and had the lead. He got lucky to get through the 6th...bringing him out for the 7th was just completely idiotic. You end up bringing in the pen to pitch in the 7th anyway, only now you no longer have the lead.
I agree 100% about leaving Marquis in the game. If you're Gardy, you had to be happy with what you got from him through 5 innings and thrilled with what he gave you through 6 innings. It was only his second start of the year and he was clearly tiring, so bringing him out for the 7th was playing with fire. I was watching the game on MLB.com's Gameday and thought it had to be a misprint that he was still in the game!

Kneelb4zerg
04-23-2012, 10:58 PM
You can pull whatever stats out of your arse you choose.

Mauer has been a three hole hitter his entire career. Three seasons over 600 PAs, another 2 over 550. Never once driven in 100 runs.

There's a reason for that, and it isn't just lack of opportunities.

Are you really this stupid? (nodding to self; apparently yes). Mauer isone of the best clutch hitters in the game, and the fact that he hasn't had big RBI numbers has everything to do with opportunity.

one_eyed_jack
04-23-2012, 11:05 PM
Mauer is supposed to be a #3 hitter. Go ahead run on third, no outs. That's not the first, or second, or third time in this young season that Mauer has failed to drive in a runner from third, often due to an overly passive approach at the plate. OBP is fine, but driving in runs is still a skill in baseball, no matter what drivel the statgeeks like to declare about RBI.

---So you know better than a guy with batting titles, silver sluggers and an MVP what approach he should take at the plate? Maybe he could hire you to coach him. That is if you're not too busy giving Meryl Streep acting lessons. All those times she was nominated for an Oscar but went home without a little gold statue. Perhaps if you could suggest a better approach to the craft......

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 11:08 PM
Are you really this stupid? (nodding to self; apparently yes). Mauer isone of the best clutch hitters in the game, and the fact that he hasn't had big RBI numbers has everything to do with opportunity.

I am fully aware 20-somethings who think baseball was invented 15 years ago, and the internet is the source of all baseball knowledge, scoff at the idea RBI are in any way meaningful.

I disagree. Off the top of my head I can think of several examples just from this year that reinforce my opinion.

Kneelb4zerg
04-23-2012, 11:12 PM
I am fully aware 20-somethings who think baseball was invented 15 years ago, and the internet is the source of all baseball knowledge, scoff at the idea RBI are in any way meaningful.

I disagree. Off the top of my head I can think of several examples just from this year that reinforce my opinion.

Well if you can think of several examples where a hitter failed in the clutch, then by all means! Case closed!!!

deanlambrecht
04-23-2012, 11:13 PM
You can pull whatever stats out of your arse you choose.

Mauer has been a three hole hitter his entire career. Three seasons over 600 PAs, another 2 over 550. Never once driven in 100 runs.

There's a reason for that, and it isn't just lack of opportunities.

Actually, it appears it is just opportunities. Here's his career RISP numbers:
AVG OBP SLG OPS
.340 .454 .501 .955

Those are simply spectacular numbers. Not only does he hit with RISP, he hits for power with RISP. Those weren't pulled out of anyone's "arse," those are Joe Mauer's actual numbers. http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7062/situational;_ylt=AkLCX14M8cmgKQUd3YFSqTyFCLcF?year =career&type=Batting

Edit to add: stats calculated from data on the page linked above, of Mauer's 511 career RBIs, 419 of those RBIs were with RISP. That's 82% of all of his RBIs.

In 2008, he was the AL leader in Sac Flies: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/AL/2008-batting-leaders.shtml

Bottom line, it's clear that when Joe Mauer has had opportunities to drive in runs, he's done just that at a very, very impressive rate.

Edit again to add: Not that it matters remotely, but I'm nowhere near a "20-something," so before you try to get back on your high horse...

CDog
04-23-2012, 11:16 PM
That's why, in that situation, you don't let it get to 2 strikes. You look for a ball early in the count that you can elevate to the OF.

Which pitch? Or do you will them to throw one?

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 11:20 PM
Let's really fill out the logic above: You have to a criminal to criticize criminals, you have to a woman to stand up for women, you have to be a starting MLB catcher for the Twins to critique or lament the performance of Joe Mauer. Have I got that about right? Of course Mauer is one the best hitters of all time, but he should have gotten that run home -- with or with getting a hit in the process. And grow up with the ad hominum jabs. Mauer will be the first one to admit he should have gotten that run in. And once you hear it from his lips -- you can finally believe it.

CDog
04-23-2012, 11:25 PM
Let's really fill out the logic above: You have to a criminal to criticize criminals, you have to a woman to stand up for women, you have to be a starting MLB catcher for the Twins to critique or lament the performance of Joe Mauer. Have I got that about right? Of course Mauer is one the best hitters of all time, but he should have gotten that run home -- with or with getting a hit in the process. And grow up with the ad hominum jabs. Mauer will be the first one to admit he should have gotten that run in. And once you hear it from his lips -- you can finally believe it.

That's become one of the biggest reaches I've read here. Instantly.

Of course he should have. Of course he's upset he didn't. The comments I believe you're referring to were in response to comments about his general success.

CDog
04-23-2012, 11:28 PM
Well if you can think of several examples where a hitter failed in the clutch, then by all means! Case closed!!!

I'm kinda mad I didn't get to that first.

twinsnorth49
04-23-2012, 11:36 PM
Mauer is supposed to be a #3 hitter. Go ahead run on third, no outs. That's not the first, or second, or third time in this young season that Mauer has failed to drive in a runner from third, often due to an overly passive approach at the plate. OBP is fine, but driving in runs is still a skill in baseball, no matter what drivel the statgeeks like to declare about RBI.

If there is a runner on third and Joe gets on base, would the runner not score? Does that count as an RBI or does it just inflate his OBP?

I'm not going to call you names like some other posters have sunk to but I do think your argument is a little weak, not to mention mildly confident in that you question the hitting approach of one of the best hitters in baseball over the last 5 or 6 years.

Mauer is a leader on this team, I don't know for sure but I get the impression his teammates feel pretty good about having Joe hit 3rd. He's as mentally strong as any player on that team, as evidenced by his consistent excellence. I'm not sure anyone on the Twins performs as well in that situation as Mauer. It's pretty presumptuous to think so, he's hit well from that spot before. The season is still so young, it's not even May for crying out loud!!

I say right here it gets considerably better in the coming weeks.

twinsnorth49
04-23-2012, 11:40 PM
Let's really fill out the logic above: You have to a criminal to criticize criminals, you have to a woman to stand up for women, you have to be a starting MLB catcher for the Twins to critique or lament the performance of Joe Mauer. Have I got that about right? Of course Mauer is one the best hitters of all time, but he should have gotten that run home -- with or with getting a hit in the process. And grow up with the ad hominum jabs. Mauer will be the first one to admit he should have gotten that run in. And once you hear it from his lips -- you can finally believe it.

But he didn't, it isn't the first time and it won't be the last, like every other good hitter ever to play baseball. What, is Mauer supposed to bat 1000. with men on 3rd base? There can never be a time he doesn't get it done?

I get it, you're frustrated with Mauer but get a little perspective.

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 11:43 PM
I'm kinda mad I didn't get to that first.


I notice in all the weak "but...but...but" responses, nobody mentions the lack of RBI in Mauer's career.

And among the reasons the Twins ended up tonight with an L instead of a W, was the fact that our #3 hitter couldn't get the ball out of the infield with a runner at 3rd and nobody out in a tie game. He ended up putting a pitcher's pitch into play, with 2 strikes on him.

Proof's in the "general success," so to speak. Or lack thereof.

twinsnorth49
04-23-2012, 11:48 PM
I notice in all the weak "but...but...but" responses, nobody mentions the lack of RBI in Mauer's career.

And among the reasons the Twins ended up tonight with an L instead of a W, was the fact that our #3 hitter couldn't get the ball out of the infield with a runner at 3rd and nobody out in a tie game. He ended up putting a pitcher's pitch into play, with 2 strikes on him.

Proof's in the "general success," so to speak. Or lack thereof.

In an effort to keep it clean s**t happens, deal with it, I'm sure Mauer will.

Ultima Ratio
04-23-2012, 11:57 PM
But he didn't, it isn't the first time and it won't be the last, like every other good hitter ever to play baseball. What, is Mauer supposed to bat 1000. with men on 3rd base? There can never be a time he doesn't get it done?

I get it, you're frustrated with Mauer but get a little perspective.

You are correct. I am frustrated with this team and Mauer in particular BECAUSE he's the best hitter on the team (in baseball) and 1/4 of the payroll, and doesn't even need a hit in that situation, just a sacrifice. My thoughts are measured, thank you. I don't expect him to hit 1.000 (straw man) -- again, you and other comments here miss this point about the sac fly/sac hit. That's not "hitting" at all. Mauer could hit 0.000 for a month and that wouldn't have any bearing on that RBI.

There can be times when Mauer doesn't get it done. But isn't it irritating that those time aren't' when we are 4 run up or down? Clutch 'hitting' (and I keep putting it in scare quotes because the RBI did NOT require a hit nor getting on base) is what I'm critiquing here, and giving some support to another poster for arguing something similar and getting attacked for it.

Ultima Ratio
04-24-2012, 12:01 AM
Hell, taking a walk and Willingham grounding into a DP would have got the run in.... and would have been a better scenario because even though there'd be no RBI, the run would still score.

TwinsGuy55422
04-24-2012, 12:42 AM
You could tell Mauer was very frustrated he didn't get the run in on the way back to the dugout. I myself am frustrated he didn't get the run in, but he worked the count full and in a lot cases you're going to get a better pitch to hit and a vintage Mauer base hit. Tonight it wasn't to be. I am honestly more frustrated with Doumit's at bat popping out on the first pitch and it wasn't a great pitch to hit.

Riverbrian
04-24-2012, 01:12 AM
Earlier this year I thought Joe choked in the same situation and I didn't think the pitches were anything special and I said so and I said Joe makes too much money for that to happen.

This case I gotta give the credit to Franklin Morales. Those were tough pitches. Sometimes the pitcher wins.

Kneelb4zerg
04-24-2012, 06:29 AM
I notice in all the weak "but...but...but" responses, nobody mentions the lack of RBI in Mauer's career.

And among the reasons the Twins ended up tonight with an L instead of a W, was the fact that our #3 hitter couldn't get the ball out of the infield with a runner at 3rd and nobody out in a tie game. He ended up putting a pitcher's pitch into play, with 2 strikes on him.

Proof's in the "general success," so to speak. Or lack thereof.

Someone already posted that Joe has a .955 OPS in his career with RISP. HOW MUCH BETTER DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO HIT IN RBI OPPORTUNITIES???
Screw facts when you have unsupported bias, right?

powrwrap
04-24-2012, 09:26 AM
Letting Marquis pitch the 6th was bad enough. He had bobbed and weaved his way through 5 innings, and had the lead. He got lucky to get through the 6th...bringing him out for the 7th was just completely idiotic. You end up bringing in the pen to pitch in the 7th anyway, only now you no longer have the lead.

From the "Let's Complain about Gardenhire" thread:

http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php?666-The-2012-quot-Complain-About-Gardy-quot-Thread&p=6831&viewfull=1#post6831

powrwrap
04-24-2012, 09:33 AM
the fact that our #3 hitter couldn't get the ball out of the infield with a runner at 3rd and nobody out in a tie game.


Someone already posted that Joe has a .955 OPS in his career with RISP. HOW MUCH BETTER DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO HIT IN RBI OPPORTUNITIES???


This sort of a post just kills me. As if hitters somehow can will themselves to be better hitters with RISP. Ooo--there's a guy on third, time to summon up my special hitting abilities to drive in runs. I don't use this special hitting ability unless there are guys on base, kind of saving it for those situations.

twinsnorth49
04-24-2012, 09:37 AM
You are correct. I am frustrated with this team and Mauer in particular BECAUSE he's the best hitter on the team (in baseball) and 1/4 of the payroll, and doesn't even need a hit in that situation, just a sacrifice. My thoughts are measured, thank you. I don't expect him to hit 1.000 (straw man) -- again, you and other comments here miss this point about the sac fly/sac hit. That's not "hitting" at all. Mauer could hit 0.000 for a month and that wouldn't have any bearing on that RBI.

There can be times when Mauer doesn't get it done. But isn't it irritating that those time aren't' when we are 4 run up or down? Clutch 'hitting' (and I keep putting it in scare quotes because the RBI did NOT require a hit nor getting on base) is what I'm critiquing here, and giving some support to another poster for arguing something similar and getting attacked for it.

No I get the point, hit/sacfrifice, whatever,let's just say, put the ball somewhere that allows the runner to score, you miss mine, no matter how much any of us wish it's going to happen every time, it's not, which you now seem to begrudgingly accept, although with a hint of petulance.

Mauer has a proven track record of being a clutch hitter and I for one don't go for the Chicken Little "the sky is falling" reaction and suggest he's a major problem for the team because of a few bad outs at the wrong time, (I'm not even sure that was a bad out as much as a well pitched at bat......which also happens), that's just impulsive.

I'm not attacking you, I respect your right to your opinion, I just don't agree with it, but that doesn't suggest I'm right.