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View Full Version : Time for Liriano to go



Vegeta
04-22-2012, 02:53 PM
I am done with watching LIriano. He needs to go. 86 pitches 47 strikes 5 earned Runs and 4 walks. The Twins need to dump him at this point. He is clearly not going to get any better. He has potential , but I don't think there is anything that the Twins can do at this point to fix him. I don't even know if he can be fixed at this point. I think the Twins should stop wasting their time on him.

Highabove
04-22-2012, 03:07 PM
I would give him a shot in the Bullpen.
His first innings seem to be OK.
Remember LaTroy Hawkins?

Dougmancaveitch
04-22-2012, 03:29 PM
I think it's time to send him down. I don't see the Twins bringing him back next year, but what could we get by trading him right now? Nothing? Send him to AAA, maybe he gets some confidence back and he can finish the year with some acceptable numbers.

DAM DC Twins Fans
04-22-2012, 03:55 PM
I think Frankie should be in the pen--one or two innings per appearance--I have said this for the past 2-3 seasons. He has great stuff and would be a great guy to bring on in the 7th.

Riverbrian
04-22-2012, 03:58 PM
I think Frankie should be in the pen--one or two innings per appearance--I have said this for the past 2-3 seasons. He has great stuff and would be a great guy to bring on in the 7th.

Less thinking... Less set up. Just let it buck.

TwinsGuy55422
04-22-2012, 04:01 PM
Weren't they considering making him the closer when Nathan hurt his elbow prior to 2010. If I remember correctly, he told the team he really wanted to stay in the rotation so they let him. Maybe it is time that they tell him how things are going to be. They should let him know that it's bullpen or bye-bye.

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 04:05 PM
I think it's time to send him down. I don't see the Twins bringing him back next year, but what could we get by trading him right now? Nothing? Send him to AAA, maybe he gets some confidence back and he can finish the year with some acceptable numbers.

He is out of options. Not that easy...

Riverbrian
04-22-2012, 04:13 PM
Weren't they considering making him the closer when Nathan hurt his elbow prior to 2010. If I remember correctly, he told the team he really wanted to stay in the rotation so they let him. Maybe it is time that they tell him how things are going to be. They should let him know that it's bullpen or bye-bye.

I remember reading that in the papers. Liriano didnt like the idea and They settled on Rauch because Rauch said "Coach I'll take that ball" like the 6-10 gamer he is. Rauch made everyone nervous. That led to the trading for Capps costing Ramos.

SO... Liriano refusing to take the closer role led to... Oh my... IS THERE NO END TO THE DAMGE HE DOES!!!

Vegeta
04-22-2012, 04:19 PM
I hesitate to let him in games that are close. I think right now he is the "we're getting shelled 37-2 in the 2nd, what can it hurt guy" Maybe the guy just needs some Ritalin to help him focus. I really hope he can prove me wrong.

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 04:27 PM
Maybe it's time for the Twins to look for a new pitching coach. Way too many pitchers seem to not reach their potential.... (and some of them toss perfect games in other organizations)
just a thought

Vegeta
04-22-2012, 04:33 PM
"(and some of them toss perfect games in other organizations)
just a thought"

Humber has also been through 2 other organizations after the Twins. So trying to blame Anderson is kinda pointless eh

30whales
04-22-2012, 04:46 PM
Would you guys leave the rotation as is replacing Liriano with Blackburn when he returns?

Seth Stohs
04-22-2012, 04:49 PM
"Humber has also been through 2 other organizations after the Twins. So trying to blame Anderson is kinda pointless eh

Completely.

Seth Stohs
04-22-2012, 04:51 PM
Would you guys leave the rotation as is replacing Liriano with Blackburn when he returns?

Blackburn is starting on Tuesday. Swarzak pitched today and could make Liriano's next start. It's not a terrible idea.

Honestly, I just don't think there is a great idea in this situation. It's guessing at this point.

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 04:57 PM
Well, if no pitchers work in this organization lately, you got to blame the coach.

Do not forget: The Twins have a higher investment in Liriano than in Anderson. It's about that simple. And the best pitcher who was developed by the Twins this century openly has been atributing his development to Bobby Cuellar and not Anderson.

glanzer
04-22-2012, 05:00 PM
Maybe Liriano is homesick and/or needs some companionship. Think about it---the Twins really only have one other player from that area of the globe, Alexi Casilla, and he's probably not exactly the go-to guy Liriano needs. The team has no other Latino/Hispanic pitchers. If I was basically the only white guy on a team in the Dominican I'd probably feel a little in over my head too.

mnfireman
04-22-2012, 05:07 PM
Maybe the team needs a change at the top. The out-dated pitch to contact stuff is ridiculus. And when they do get a power arm they get rid of him (see Matt Garza) or try to change him to fit the team mold (see Liriano). There are probably many other examples but I don't want to look that hard. That and we seem to be ahead of the other teams in Tommy John candidates (Liriano, Nathan, Baker & Gibson are some examples, I'm sure there are more).

shs_59
04-22-2012, 05:16 PM
I would give him a shot in the Bullpen.
His first innings seem to be OK.
Remember LaTroy Hawkins?

Well said, Exactly what I think, give him a chance to relieve, he's dominant in 1-2 inning frames at a time.

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 05:17 PM
Maybe Liriano is homesick and/or needs some companionship. Think about it---the Twins really only have one other player from that area of the globe, Alexi Casilla, and he's probably not exactly the go-to guy Liriano needs. The team has no other Latino/Hispanic pitchers. If I was basically the only white guy on a team in the Dominican I'd probably feel a little in over my head too.

That's probably part of the reason (I don't think it is homesickness as much as communication issues) that Liriano has been pitching better (like much better) when Rene Rivera catches him...

Neinstein
04-22-2012, 05:33 PM
I would put him in the Bullpen, but I'd be wary of using him longer than 4 outs.
I think he could be an above average Reliever, not sure about closer.

Fire Dan Gladden
04-22-2012, 05:58 PM
His days as a starter are definitely numbered. I believe a move to the pen with the hopes of trading him before the deadline have to be on the horizon.

TheMix
04-22-2012, 06:32 PM
Well, if no pitchers work in this organization lately, you got to blame the coach.

Do not forget: The Twins have a higher investment in Liriano than in Anderson. It's about that simple. And the best pitcher who was developed by the Twins this century openly has been atributing his development to Bobby Cuellar and not Anderson.

I think that's a fairly myopic view. Perkins has worked out great. Other recent departees were great (see Gurrier & Crain). Baker was great before getting hurt last year. I think Anderson's trying to make the best of bad situations....especially with Liriano. There's only so much a pitching coach can do to get a guy out of his own head. And overall, I think over the course of Anderson's career as Twins Pitching Coach, for every bad example of a pitching failure, there's a great pitcher that just either got injured or left the team.

And the Twins do NOT have a higher investment in Liriano. I have a hard time believing that even if he put up monster numbers from here until the trade deadline, that they'd get anything really good. He's just been too unstable throughout his career. We'd have a very hard time selling high with him. So he ends up being just one guy whom you can maybe get a mid-level prospect for unless somebody's ridiculously desperate. That is NOT a higher investment than your pitching coach. Especially considering Liriano is almost surely gone after this year (or at the deadline).

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 06:35 PM
And overall, I think over the course of Anderson's career as Twins Pitching Coach, for every bad example of a pitching failure, there's a great pitcher that just either got injured or left the team

That's pretty much much what I think too, and I am surprised that we ended up with opposing conclusions about Andy

Kneelb4zerg
04-22-2012, 07:04 PM
That's pretty much much what I think too, and I am surprised that we ended up with opposing conclusions about Andy

So the pitching coach who preaches throw strikes above all else is to blame when a starter can't throw strikes? WTF?

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 07:13 PM
So the pitching coach who preaches throw strikes above all else is to blame when a starter can't throw strikes? WTF?

Not that simple...

Talking about a guy who was on a Cy Young level discussion because he used to miss bats and after the injury the pitching coach did not help him get back there because he was trying to make him a different pitcher
And the same pitching coach has messed up other pitchers who were much better after they left the Twins.
And that same pitching coach was a scrub when he pitched so his credibility is about as much as the hitting coach's about hitting

BD57
04-22-2012, 07:18 PM
Don't want him in the pen. What I'm seeing is the moment he's stressed at all, his mechanics, etc. go to Hades - next thing you know, there's a crooked number on the board. Put him in the pen & he's going to enter lots of games in "stress" situations.

As for the "going to the 4-seam vs. the 2-seam" .... if that's what we decided to do, how in the heck did he throw so many 2-seamers today? Was the story bogus? Or was Liriano insubordinate?

Kneelb4zerg
04-22-2012, 07:50 PM
Not that simple...

Talking about a guy who was on a Cy Young level discussion because he used to miss bats and after the injury the pitching coach did not help him get back there because he was trying to make him a different pitcher
And the same pitching coach has messed up other pitchers who were much better after they left the Twins.
And that same pitching coach was a scrub when he pitched so his credibility is about as much as the hitting coach's about hitting

He had a cy young level season with who as the pitching coach?

You are the one being simple if you think firing the entire coaching staff is the solution to every problem. Lirianos a mess, ever stop to think that's Lirianos fault?

peterb18
04-22-2012, 09:25 PM
A few posts have it right. There is too much coaching. Why does he touch only 89-91 mph lately, when he can actually throw in the 93-94 range. It is because he is trying to pitch to spots. A power pitcher has to just bust the ball in there and let the natural movement take over. Way to much coaching! Ever listen to Tom Kelly when he is on the broadcast and keeps talking about hitting certain areas that are numbered? Too much of this over-coaching pitchers in the minors and taking away their natural ability. Look what happened to Winners. Everybody can't be a Whitey Ford!

one_eyed_jack
04-22-2012, 09:47 PM
Liriano is on my list of "Players That I Am Quickly Losing Patience With", right below Casilla and above Valencia.

darin617
04-22-2012, 10:01 PM
Out of options.

darin617
04-22-2012, 10:04 PM
So in order to get a new pitching coach that means time to fire Gardy! I'm ready for that. There is no way Gardy would let them fire his BFF unless they threatened to fire him.

darin617
04-22-2012, 10:07 PM
In other words he get traded to Miami and Ozzie takes him under his wing a brings him back from the dead.

nokomismod
04-22-2012, 10:16 PM
To the pen until/if he gets his confidence back.

twinsnorth49
04-22-2012, 11:35 PM
Not that simple...

Talking about a guy who was on a Cy Young level discussion because he used to miss bats and after the injury the pitching coach did not help him get back there because he was trying to make him a different pitcher
And the same pitching coach has messed up other pitchers who were much better after they left the Twins.
And that same pitching coach was a scrub when he pitched so his credibility is about as much as the hitting coach's about hitting

Blaming Anderson is a cop out. There have been lots of one year wonders who never got back to that one great season, that's not the fault of any pitching coach, just the reality of how hard it is to pitch consistently in the majors for even a few years.

Much better pitchers out there after they left the Twins,who? Some may have had a little more success but we're placing the meaning of that word at a pretty low bar by saying that.

Calling him a scrub has no relevance, many highly successful staffs have pitching coaches who were little more than side notes as players, including 7 who never even played in the majors, including Jim Hickey, whose staff just laid the Twins bare the last 2 nights. Dave Duncan from the Cards isn't even a pitcher (a good player yes). Jeff Jones from the Tigers wasn't exactly a can't miss player. What do these three men have in common, yes, talented pitchers.

Boom Boom
04-23-2012, 08:20 AM
Now I'll be the first to agree that Rick Anderson has gotten some undeserved accolades in this market. But Liriano is terrible, and at this point I'm not afraid of him coming back strong with another organization. I don't believe any pitching coach is going to fix him because every time he hits some minor difficulty he turns into a wriggling, spineless mass on the mound.

Dilligaf69
04-23-2012, 04:40 PM
I have a better shot of cracking this rotation then the Twins do of just "dumping Liriano

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-23-2012, 04:44 PM
Not that simple...

Talking about a guy who was on a Cy Young level discussion because he used to miss bats and after the injury the pitching coach did not help him get back there because he was trying to make him a different pitcher
And the same pitching coach has messed up other pitchers who were much better after they left the Twins.
And that same pitching coach was a scrub when he pitched so his credibility is about as much as the hitting coach's about hitting

My head suddenly hurts.

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-23-2012, 04:47 PM
As long as the Twins are playing below .500 there is no reason to pull Liriano from the rotation. Might as well trot him out there every 5 days and pray/hope/etc he figures it out a bit and can build up a little trade value prior to the trade deadline.

If the Twins were actually looking like a playoff contender at this point, and there was a clear better option to replace him, then by all means pull him from the rotation, but I am not so sure they have a clear upgrade at this point in the Swarzak, Manship, bunch.

On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing Diamond get a few starts in the majors, though he looks like a #5 at best.

StormJH1
04-23-2012, 09:15 PM
Now I'll be the first to agree that Rick Anderson has gotten some undeserved accolades in this market. But Liriano is terrible, and at this point I'm not afraid of him coming back strong with another organization. I don't believe any pitching coach is going to fix him because every time he hits some minor difficulty he turns into a wriggling, spineless mass on the mound.
This. I think pitching coaches, in general, are terribly overrated. The guy above who wrote that Anderson and the Twins preach control and "pitch to contact" above all else nailed it. Liriano's problem isn't improper instruction - there are time he CAN'T find the zone. Players play, coaches coach.

I have no idea what value Liriano has left, but it's absolutely feasible that he could head to the bullpen and excel in a sort of Aroldis Chapman or Johnny Venters type role for 1-2 inning appearances in high-leverage situations. Sure, he could come in with no control and totally get bombed once in awhile. But if the mental aspect is what can't be fixed, maybe he can simplify things going out there focusing on getting 3 or 4 guys out, instead of dealing with pitch count management and how to deal with guys 2 or 3 times through the lineup. Even when Liriano's BAD, he still has the raw stuff to miss bats at a decent rate.

StormJH1
04-23-2012, 09:19 PM
As long as the Twins are playing below .500 there is no reason to pull Liriano from the rotation. Might as well trot him out there every 5 days and pray/hope/etc he figures it out a bit and can build up a little trade value prior to the trade deadline.

If the Twins were actually looking like a playoff contender at this point, and there was a clear better option to replace him, then by all means pull him from the rotation, but I am not so sure they have a clear upgrade at this point in the Swarzak, Manship, bunch.

On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing Diamond get a few starts in the majors, though he looks like a #5 at best.

I've seen enough and the Twins may have too. Your point is absolutely valid, but I think it would be more appropriate if the Twins still viewed him as an "upside" guy with a future in this rotation. How could they? Even if he strung together 3 great outings, there's still that chance he comes out and gets absolutely destroyed next time out. And since the start of 2011, those stretches have lasted for games at a time.

I think "trade value" is mostly a lost cause at this point...you could argue that moving him to the pen as a lefty strikeout specialist would actually ENHANCE his value to a contender in July, in the event he succeeded in that role. Because whatever this is...it ain't working.

Riverbrian
04-23-2012, 11:17 PM
I've seen enough and the Twins may have too. Your point is absolutely valid, but I think it would be more appropriate if the Twins still viewed him as an "upside" guy with a future in this rotation. How could they? Even if he strung together 3 great outings, there's still that chance he comes out and gets absolutely destroyed next time out. And since the start of 2011, those stretches have lasted for games at a time.

I think "trade value" is mostly a lost cause at this point...you could argue that moving him to the pen as a lefty strikeout specialist would actually ENHANCE his value to a contender in July, in the event he succeeded in that role. Because whatever this is...it ain't working.

The pen is a different mindset and it might suit him. When you start... You have to mix it up. That hitter you are facing in the 1st is coming up again to face you. You can't just bring it... It's a mind game and he just might not be grasping the mind game part.

If you put him in the pen for a LOOGY role or set up guy. He won't have to think. He can just bring it and challenge hitters. 2 seam, slider, 4 seam, change, slider. Put a k in the book. It might work. It just might.

I've also heard he doesn't handle pressure well. But as long as he doesn't think. As long as he just throws. Brings it. Who knows.

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-23-2012, 11:36 PM
I've seen enough and the Twins may have too. Your point is absolutely valid, but I think it would be more appropriate if the Twins still viewed him as an "upside" guy with a future in this rotation. How could they? Even if he strung together 3 great outings, there's still that chance he comes out and gets absolutely destroyed next time out. And since the start of 2011, those stretches have lasted for games at a time.

I think "trade value" is mostly a lost cause at this point...you could argue that moving him to the pen as a lefty strikeout specialist would actually ENHANCE his value to a contender in July, in the event he succeeded in that role. Because whatever this is...it ain't working.

Liriano's problem is he can't throw strikes, I'm not sure a move to the bullpen would help him to much at this point. Things could get even worse potentially!

I mean, I am as frustrated as it comes with the guy, at this point my only hope is he somehow manages to show a bit of a spark to make some team willing to take him off our hands at the trade deadline for a C type prospect, anything more would be a nice win in my book.

After spring training I really thought he had a shot at 180+ IP and a sub 4.00 ERA...ugh, that seems like years ago instead of just a month ago :/

Riverbrian
04-24-2012, 12:02 AM
Liriano's problem is he can't throw strikes, I'm not sure a move to the bullpen would help him to much at this point. Things could get even worse potentially!

I mean, I am as frustrated as it comes with the guy, at this point my only hope is he somehow manages to show a bit of a spark to make some team willing to take him off our hands at the trade deadline for a C type prospect, anything more would be a nice win in my book.

After spring training I really thought he had a shot at 180+ IP and a sub 4.00 ERA...ugh, that seems like years ago instead of just a month ago :/

You are right... The only thing I can say is that his location problems MAY stem from thinking too much. Worry to much... You try to locate. Try to locate without having the skill set to locate and you got walks. I think he should go an inning out pf the pen. Let it buck and see what happens. It might fail miserably but it also might work.

We know for sure that this finesse thing isn't working. Even Verlander has to mix it up as a starter. Out of the pen he could just challenge. It might work.

TwinsGuy55422
04-24-2012, 12:38 AM
You are right... The only thing I can say is that his location problems MAY stem from thinking too much. Worry to much... You try to locate. Try to locate without having the skill set to locate and you got walks. I think he should go an inning out pf the pen. Let it buck and see what happens. It might fail miserably but it also might work.

We know for sure that this finesse thing isn't working. Even Verlander has to mix it up as a starter. Out of the pen he could just challenge. It might work.

I agree. I think a good chunck of his control issues are from too many layers of thinking that come with starting pitching. As a reliever, you know you are going out there to get a couple of guys or maybe pitch an inning or two at the most. That takes a lot of thinking out of the equation and allows you to just go after hitters. Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of failed starters have found a nitch in the bullpen.

Riverbrian
04-24-2012, 12:56 AM
I agree. I think a good chunck of his control issues are from too many layers of thinking that come with starting pitching. As a reliever, you know you are going out there to get a couple of guys or maybe pitch an inning or two at the most. That takes a lot of thinking out of the equation and allows you to just go after hitters. Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of failed starters have found a nitch in the bullpen.

I won't correct you. You are not wrong.

Thor
04-24-2012, 07:59 AM
Gardy said something interesting last night. He said after Mauers walk that Lester started pounding the strike zone because he wanted to stay out there and that is what good pitchers do when their pitch count starts getting high. I would take a different approach to Liriano. I would tell him he is going to throw 120 pitches unless he completes the game first. I know Pinnella did that with someone when their pen was wore out and I think he gave up 17 runs but he turned things around right after that and ad a pretty decent couple years. What could it hurt. Even if he throws his arm out that wouldn't be a great loss the way he is going and if it worked Gardy would look like a genious.

gmarais66
04-24-2012, 09:38 AM
I was looking through Liriano's splits to see if I could see any redeeming stats that stand out... The only thing that stood out was that he has pitched well in the first inning, which tells me, if his next start is just as bad, they should try him in the bullpen to see if he can hold it together for one inning, like he does in his starts... Incredibly, opposing hitters are batting .415 against Liriano on balls in play... That is powerful bad... Compare that to Pavano in 2011, when he led the league in hits allowed and opposing batters hit .291 on balls in play... Also, I found it amazing that he has yet to retire a No. 8 hitter this season...

ashburyjohn
04-24-2012, 09:57 AM
I haven't seen any mention here of a tidbit found on mlbtraderumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/04/quick-hits-willis-pudge-lopez-alvarez.html), which states that "it was announced" (Dave St. Peter?) that Liriano would skip his next start and pitch on May 1. Sounds like no bullpen duty, just rest; we shall see.

luckylager
04-24-2012, 09:58 AM
Definitely give him a shot in the bullpen. Whatever Liriano's problem is seems to be between the ears. Hopefully the change will do him good. Give him a shot at redeeming himself and possibly the chance of another team (not the Twins) signing him next year.

Fire Dan Gladden
04-24-2012, 10:15 AM
I would give him a shot in the Bullpen.
His first innings seem to be OK.
Remember LaTroy Hawkins?

Unfortunately I do remember LaTroy Hawkins. Actually Hawkins may be a good analogy. You never know what you will get on any given day.