PDA

View Full Version : when is Valencias time up?



rogrulz30
04-22-2012, 01:45 PM
Ok I will say I have been valencias biggest "hater" for a lack of a better word. But seriously it feels like he gets a huge rope. A couple more bad plays in Saturdays game, a very poor at bat, yet you don't hear much about him in the threads. I really thought by the end of the year Hughes would have taken his spot, obviously that isn't happening, so the next option at this point is burroughs? I am telling you now ( I do hope I eat these words) valencia is not going to match his 2010 productivity.

Seth Stohs
04-22-2012, 02:02 PM
He's definitely struggling right not. Poor plate appearances, too many strikeouts, not enough walks, strictly a pull hitter. I think we've seen some improvement defensively since the beginning of the season. Frankly, Burroughs is not better, but he might warrant a little playing time. There's no one in Rochester to consider. Or New Britain, for that matter.

In his three years in the organization, I haven't seen him struggle like this though. I don't expect 2010 numbers, but I do hope for much, much more than we saw in 2011 also.

Riverbrian
04-22-2012, 02:20 PM
He's definitely struggling right not. Poor plate appearances, too many strikeouts, not enough walks, strictly a pull hitter. I think we've seen some improvement defensively since the beginning of the season. Frankly, Burroughs is not better, but he might warrant a little playing time. There's no one in Rochester to consider. Or New Britain, for that matter.

In his three years in the organization, I haven't seen him struggle like this though. I don't expect 2010 numbers, but I do hope for much, much more than we saw in 2011 also.

I don't see any defensive improvement. Not saying he hasn't... Just saying I haven't seen it at all. The guy is always capable of making a play and he does from time to time. I thought he was a fine defensive player his rookie year. Last year he played like his feet were in mud and this season I've seen the same.

I don't know if Burroughs is a cut and dried better defensive player. I've seen him start two games and seen him make 3 tough defensive plays diving to his left. Velencia has played every other game and I have not seen him leave his feet. I've seen Velencia not move his feet and unnecessarily reach for balls and choke this way frequently enough to come to my own personal conclusion that he isn't getting it.

I'm sure he doesn't want to lose his job but he will... the very second that better option comes along. Then Velencia will be signing a minor league contract with someone somewhere and scrap to stay in the majors.

If you want to save Velencia. You save him by benching him. Send the message loud and clear to him right now. This complaining to him and honest assessments publicly from time to time and then sticking him in the lineup everyday regardless is not working.

There is something to be said about letting a player play through his struggles. There is also something to be said about letting a player cement his bad habits by letting him continue to play.

mike wants wins
04-22-2012, 02:21 PM
And do what? They have no options, the minors are barren of guys ready to come up the last few years, and this year is no exception. Just cutting him does nothing, and they won't sign free agents that are great, so what is the option? Awful trades and bad position player drafting has set this team back, and there's no fixing it unless you are going to change the philosophy of this team and sign legit FAs, or trade prospects for legit MLB players. Not quickly.

Riverbrian
04-22-2012, 02:42 PM
And do what? They have no options, the minors are barren of guys ready to come up the last few years, and this year is no exception. Just cutting him does nothing, and they won't sign free agents that are great, so what is the option? Awful trades and bad position player drafting has set this team back, and there's no fixing it unless you are going to change the philosophy of this team and sign legit FAs, or trade prospects for legit MLB players. Not quickly.

Its tricky... No matter what Velencia is... He is a potential value. The hope is that he can pull it together long enough to increase his value. Either as a Minnesota Twins or a trade chip down the line. Either way it's value. If you cut him... You throw that value away.... If you bench him... You throw that value away. He has to improve and it starts between his ears.

Its tricky because let's face it... We are talking about potential value. His only value right now is potential value. His day to day value is worthless right now because he is in a deep slump. You hope he gets better because he is young and has potential. If the Twins cut him... Someone picks him up because of his potential. If someone trades for him it is because of his contract and potential. No organization would want the Velencia that is playing right now.

Current production of Velencia could be matched by Burroughs, Plouffe or the departed Hughes. I assume Dozier wont be called up until the arb clock thing works out in the Twins favor. I don't know if he'd slot into 3B or if he bounces Casilla when he is called up.

Tough situation. I'd put him on the bench for a week and say you are sitting because you need help focusing of your job and ultimately your career. Hopefully he starts to get it and voila... a player that fulfills his value and is worth trotting out there daily.

TwinsGuy55422
04-22-2012, 04:08 PM
I seriously think Valencia focuses more on the girls yelling his name in the stands than he does on the game itself. He needs a rude wake up call some time very soon!

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 04:30 PM
What can you do with Valencia right now? Send to the minors and bringing up who? Hollimon? Or give the job to Burroughs who sucks even more? Plouffe? He has been worse than Valencia also. Just not too many options.

Just hope that he can shake the cobwebs and be average or so for a couple seasons until Sano is ready... that's about it.

mnfireman
04-22-2012, 04:43 PM
Gardy needs a scapegoat (someone to throw under the bus). Valencia is his scapegoat (whipping boy?). With a tough lefty tomorrow (Lester) let him play one more game then bench him against Beckett & Bucholz. With the off day that gives him three days with his nose in the corner to think about what he's done.

Seth Stohs
04-22-2012, 04:56 PM
I like that plan, mnfireman. Sounds like a good idea to try to get him going.

30whales
04-22-2012, 05:18 PM
Let's try putting Parmalee at third.

Thrylos
04-22-2012, 05:24 PM
Let's try putting Parmalee at third.

that would work. Remember Brian Buscher?

mnfireman
04-22-2012, 05:27 PM
Parmelee throws lefthanded.

fittdogg
04-22-2012, 11:12 PM
Valencia spends more time blocking people on Twitter than working on his game.

twinsnorth49
04-22-2012, 11:44 PM
I seriously think Valencia focuses more on the girls yelling his name in the stands than he does on the game itself. He needs a rude wake up call some time very soon!

I can see that being pretty distracting, I'm thinking a lot of wish we had those kind of problems.

Not to hurt his chances with the ladies or anything, but I think he needs to spend some extended time on the bench to let him know he's just not getting it......the playing baseball part I mean, he's probably getting other things.

Bark's Lounge
04-22-2012, 11:50 PM
It's too bad, because Valencia has talent. His self obsession and arrogance are going to cost him mucho $$$ and a MLB career. He is the Anti-Jamie Carroll.

ScrapTheNickname
04-22-2012, 11:54 PM
Parmalee at 3rd was a joke, accentuating the barrenness of any other options.

Kirby_Waved_At_Me
04-23-2012, 10:34 AM
Realistically, what should be expected from Valencia at this point? Looking at Baseball Reference, there are some interesting comparable players through their age 26 season (so, through 2011 for Valencia, not including what he's done this season).

Of course his career could be totally different from any of these guys, but it seems like his ceiling is probably a guy like Aaron Boone, but more likely he'll be like a less powerful Leo Gomez or a more powerful Tom Brookens.

If he has the potential to play as well as Boone (a little better than replacement level), do you keep him?

stringer bell
04-23-2012, 10:41 AM
Two factors on why the Twins should be patient with Danny V--1) There's really no replacement in the minors. 2) He's cheap and under team control for a long time. Yes, he had a tough weekend in St. Petersburg, but so did a number of others.

Paul
04-23-2012, 11:06 AM
[QUOTE=TwinsGuy55422;11734]I seriously think Valencia focuses more on the girls yelling his name in the stands than he does on the game itself...QUOTE]

I agree. I think more to the point you could say immaturity. I know that was my problem when I was a kid. And shared by a lot of other guys I ran with. For me it took marriage and a kid on the way to get me to focus on my career. I don't know what it'll take for Danny. It's obvious Gardy is frustrated and searching for an answer.


Wasn't it Shaw who said "Youth is wasted on the young."?

USAFChief
04-23-2012, 11:24 AM
Two factors on why the Twins should be patient with Danny V--1) There's really no replacement in the minors. 2) He's cheap and under team control for a long time. Yes, he had a tough weekend in St. Petersburg, but so did a number of others.

1. The potential replacement pool is not limited to the Twins current minor leaguers. 2. Cost is a factor, but if its the only factor then why not just have a roster of 25 rookies and a payroll of $12m? Winning is the goal, not saving.g money.
3. Its been more like a tough year plus, not just a rough weekend in Tampa.

I'm not sure what to do with Valencia. But I sure wouldn't let cost or the lack of an obvious replacement in Rochester make the decision for me.

THE DFC
04-23-2012, 11:30 AM
Two factors on why the Twins should be patient with Danny V--1) There's really no replacement in the minors. 2) He's cheap and under team control for a long time. Yes, he had a tough weekend in St. Petersburg, but so did a number of others.

Well, I hope that most of us are considering what options can we exercise to get Valencia going. If anyone is full-on ready to give up on him, they're crazy.

However, with someone with an attitude like Valencia's that is continually making the same mental mistakes, you have to consider that a significant event is likely necessary to shock him out of his complacency. I think for his sake, I'd send him down to Rochester until at least July. I'd tell him he's not coming back until his defense is solid, and he starts to take major-league at-bats.

With a guy like Valencia, I don't think the patient approach works. He's certainly not lacking in confidence and just needs "to figure it out." I think he thinks he's awesome and will just "get there" by magic--not a good philosophy.

StormJH1
04-23-2012, 12:45 PM
I don't want to judge him on the Twitter thing, though it can be frustrating for the fans when WE perceive the guy as holding on by a thread and his actions/demeanor off the field don't seem to reflect any of that urgency whatsoever. Ultimately, if he were playing better, nobody would care if he were a total ass, and that's the plain truth.

The lack of alternatives is very obviously the reason that Valencia "appears" to have a longer leash. Gardy's attitude to him seems similar to how he treats Casilla. The difference there is that the Twins have had a variety of guys that could play SS or 2B in the past 2 years, and that includes Nishi, Carroll, Hughes, Plouffe, etc. I think Casilla's play has been vastly undervalued by the Twins, who have constantly moved him around in favor of supposedly "better" options.

By contrast, we really haven't had a lot of guys that could really "play" 3rd base. The fact that Burroughs even made this team tells you all you need to know about the level of confidence they have in Valencia. Burroughs was a washed up journeyman, and I don't believe he's great in the field either, yet he was retained ostensibly for the purpose of "pushing" Valencia, even though Burroughs has done nothing with his very limited playing time either.

pooly_31
04-25-2012, 01:28 PM
I may get burned for this and maybe should, but i guess i'm on Valencia's side here. I've seen his twitter feed and was quite turned off by it but so what, this guy is a baseball player, not my friend. I think that's part of the problem with the Twins as well they get rid of or run off all these guys that aren't "good guys" or don't gel in the clubhouse ie Bartlet, Garza, Ortiz. etc.
Now i'm not going to pretend to know the correct route to take to get Valencia on the right track but maybe instead of constant ridicule from his manager he needs some support. Some players respond better to encouragement than to yelling and its up to Gardy to figure out which players are which and to make sure he has a healthy clubhouse. I've been telling people since last year that i predict Valencia will be the next one shipped out that Twins fans say "why didn't he do that here?" It's up to Gardy. We don't need a team full of "nice guys" we need a team full of good ball players.

StormJH1
04-25-2012, 03:27 PM
Couldn't agree more with the whole "we need baseball players, not good guys" angle. I think with the Boston Red Sox, both last September and now, you're seeing an example of how a broken team culture can cause even a very talented (and highly paid) group of players to badly underperform. The Twins have a culture that's become all too comfortable over the years, and their talent level has become increasingly mediocre, even within their own division.

I think that players with any type of personality or expressiveness really struggle to fit in on this team, and that's particularly the case with non-white players. And I don't like that about this team. You see the language they use about "gritty" players like Lew Ford, Little Nicky Punto, and even Butera when portions of their game absolutely suck. And you hear stories like the one from Leyland how Gardy had a man-crush on Clete Thomas for years, and gives him an unconscionable amount of playing time after we get him off the scrap heap. But if Casilla boots a grounder (heaven forbid), the guy's a lazy, erratic bum.

Yes, the organization has run off white players too (Garza, Bartlett, Slowey, etc.), so it isn't strictly a race thing. But there's a stubbornness about the way the Twins do business and the lack of flexibility they show in player acquisitions and management that feels a little unwarranted from a team that's won all of 1 playoff series since 1992.

deanlambrecht
04-25-2012, 04:43 PM
Burroughs is in the lineup at 3B tonight. Might be a pitching matchup thing, but I can't imagine it's not a message.