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PseudoSABR
10-17-2013, 07:48 PM
Six years $68 million (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/jose-dariel-abreu-about-to-agree-to-68-million-contract.html)

jokin
10-17-2013, 08:03 PM
Very affordable to a team like the Twins, who like the Sox, cleared out a ton of payroll room for a signing just like this- and both teams had a clear need for Abreu, but only one of the teams seems to be trying. A definite shot across the bow in the AL Central that the Sox are getting serious about getting back up on their horsey, with the Twins yet again, coming out with the short straw and the mule-end of the Division. This one hurts, folks.

Jeremy Nygaard
10-17-2013, 08:38 PM
Right or wrong, Twins were never very interested.

Kwak
10-17-2013, 08:51 PM
I listened to a tape of a SUX roundtable discussion about what they should do for 2014. One point they agreed--the SUX have to put a good product on the field to sell tickets, as opposed to the Cubs (and the Twins!). They spend to improve--using their former GM's plan--fill holes with veteran FAs--yet recognizing they (SUX) aren't the Yankees and have to live on a budget! No need to add what the Twins are doing!

notoriousgod71
10-17-2013, 09:55 PM
This is just depressing. I admire the White Sox for at least trying to improve their team rather than wait for a tomorrow that may never come.

raindog
10-18-2013, 06:34 AM
Frustrating that he's going within the division, and the Twins weren't interested. I sure hope they make me look like an idiot, but they should have gone after the guy. 6 years, 68 million is not unreasonable, and wouldn't have crippled the payroll if he failed.

Badsmerf
10-18-2013, 07:17 AM
This could make Terry Ryan look like a fool yet again. There was a clear need for him on this roster, there was money available, and Terry Ryan wasn't even interested. He might be right, but he could also be completely wrong.

LimestoneBaggy
10-18-2013, 09:14 AM
I'm not saying this isn't disappointing, but the Twins would have needed to pay north of 11 (likely 12) million a year for a guy who projects to be a DH? The scouting I've read says at best, he may be okay. So, he may be a monster bat, with little defensive abilities. With the pitching needs, I'm not going to scream foul at this one.....unless we don't sign pitching.....or he's an absolute monster.......then I'll cry...a lot.

AROG
10-18-2013, 09:25 AM
I understand the criticism. The Twins need to get better and do so in a hurry. Would you prefer we spend $11-$12 million on a starter? That and he is anything but a guaranteed thing. No one else, including the Astros who were admittedly trying to over pay for him at $55m came close to the bid the Sox did. Now, they may be able to look back on this in 4 years and say it was the best move. Right now it looks foolish to everyone in baseball. Abreu has a slow bat and may not be even an average hitter.

I applaud them not wasting money on could be DH's if they spend it on pitching.

raindog
10-18-2013, 09:27 AM
That is not a lot of money anymore, as we'll soon see. Contracts are going to look outrageous with all the TV money coming in. If he hits like Ryan Howard when he was good, the contract won't look bad at all.

AROG, the Twins have enough money to spend on a big bat and pitching. Their payroll is ridiculously low right now.

Willihammer
10-18-2013, 10:17 AM
I'm not saying this isn't disappointing, but the Twins would have needed to pay north of 11 (likely 12) million a year for a guy who projects to be a DH? The scouting I've read says at best, he may be okay. So, he may be a monster bat, with little defensive abilities. With the pitching needs, I'm not going to scream foul at this one.....unless we don't sign pitching.....or he's an absolute monster.......then I'll cry...a lot.

Other posters have said this before but I'll repeat it: the Twins need to soak up good players when they have the chance and worry about where to play them later. If this guy hits like Ryan Howard then they could have squeezed him in somewhere.

twinsfan34
10-18-2013, 11:08 AM
I love this signing for the Twins. This means Adam Dunn OR this guy is playing 1B/LF. That's 'greener' pastures for the Twins. Very slow and liabilities in the field. Adam Dunn's D-WAR is -2.4. Can't wait to see him or Abreu in the field for the White Sox.

According to Buster Olney, "most" (whatever that means) industry experts feel he's a very risky acquisition (http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/9841115/chicago-white-sox-agree-record-deal-cuban-free-agent-1b-jose-abreu-reports) and weary on his guy's ability to transition to MLB.

It's not even assumed he'll start with the big club next year.

If he cost 'only' $11M/per, why didn't the Yankees put 2 pennies together and get him?

Lyle Overbay, Mark Reynolds, Kevin Youkilis, Travis Hafner, & Curtis Granderson were responsible for most of the DH at-bats and they represent $37.5M coming off the books.

Why wouldn't they sign him...if he was only $11M/yr to sign?

How about Boston? Mike Napoli is a FA after the season. He cost $13M.

They must not think Abreu could hit .259 AVG 23 HR 92 RBI in 579 at-bats (Napoli's numbers)...and for a cheaper price to boot.

Kwak
10-18-2013, 11:16 AM
2014--back to the cellar of the ALC for the Twins.

cmb0252
10-18-2013, 11:19 AM
From Bed Badler:

I've Jose Abreu several times and like him. But there are good scouts who wonder if the White Sox are paying $68MM for a 4A player.

AROG
10-18-2013, 11:23 AM
AROG, the Twins have enough money to spend on a big bat and pitching. Their payroll is ridiculously low right now.

I know that they can, my point is that I would rather have a proven commodity at $11 million per year then a completely unproven one. I would rather go after any number of guys then Abreu.

StormJH1
10-18-2013, 11:31 AM
I heard this news last night and it made me a little sick, but here's the thing:

Yes, you can fault Terry Ryan for being excessively risk averse and having 25-year-old preconceptions of what FA's should cost...and I absolutely fault him for those things.

But for a Twins team this bad, I'm don't honestly believe that $68 million for a 1B/DH, even one that hits 25-30 HR's a year, really solves our problems. Especially if you do that in lieu of any other pitching help from free agency or international signings over the next 2-3 years. I think Mauer is usually the 1st baseman next year, and Arcia and Sano look like they are sure bets to be sure-fire MLB players (not necessarily stars) in the upcoming years, and both of them are all-bat-no-defense.

Cespedes and Puig absolutely worked out, but like domestic prospects, there is no guarantee that you come up snake eyes with that major investment until you see some MLB results (see: Nishioka, Hideki Irabu, Kaz Matsui, etc.). Until you're at highest level, you never know if there's some irreparable hole in Abreu's swing that good pitchers can exploit.

It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, the front office has to do SOMETHING aggressive, or we are unlikely to break the top 3 of the AL Central any time soon. Even just sitting on our offensive prospects, we don't have the rotation to run with these teams if we're unwilling to sign high-end starters in FA and are waiting on 18-year-old draft picks to grow up.

FSP
10-18-2013, 11:33 AM
I know that they can, my point is that I would rather have a proven commodity at $11 million per year then a completely unproven one. I would rather go after any number of guys then Abreu.

An $11 million per year proven commodity will have only proven to be very average.

LimestoneBaggy
10-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Other posters have said this before but I'll repeat it: the Twins need to soak up good players when they have the chance and worry about where to play them later. If this guy hits like Ryan Howard then they could have squeezed him in somewhere.

My main point is that he appears to be a defensive liability (or a primary DH). Taking a risk is always good (and I would have been beyond happy if they would have taken a shot), I can just see the logic in passing at that price point with a low defensive upside. Seems to be half the player of Puig/Cespedes for more money. I hope that he stinks for the Sox, or you will be dead on.

notoriousgod71
10-18-2013, 12:43 PM
I heard this news last night and it made me a little sick, but here's the thing:

Yes, you can fault Terry Ryan for being excessively risk averse and having 25-year-old preconceptions of what FA's should cost...and I absolutely fault him for those things.

But for a Twins team this bad, I'm don't honestly believe that $68 million for a 1B/DH, even one that hits 25-30 HR's a year, really solves our problems. Especially if you do that in lieu of any other pitching help from free agency or international signings over the next 2-3 years. I think Mauer is usually the 1st baseman next year, and Arcia and Sano look like they are sure bets to be sure-fire MLB players (not necessarily stars) in the upcoming years, and both of them are all-bat-no-defense.

Cespedes and Puig absolutely worked out, but like domestic prospects, there is no guarantee that you come up snake eyes with that major investment until you see some MLB results (see: Nishioka, Hideki Irabu, Kaz Matsui, etc.). Until you're at highest level, you never know if there's some irreparable hole in Abreu's swing that good pitchers can exploit.

It doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day, the front office has to do SOMETHING aggressive, or we are unlikely to break the top 3 of the AL Central any time soon. Even just sitting on our offensive prospects, we don't have the rotation to run with these teams if we're unwilling to sign high-end starters in FA and are waiting on 18-year-old draft picks to grow up.

For a Twins team this bad they should be adding one or two quality pieces every year, not waiting until they're on the verge of being respectable and adding (at best) one. We don't have a 1b, we don't have a DH, we don't have any SP. We're going to need to fill all of those holes anyway. What's the harm in filling one of them now and having less holes to fill in 2016?

PseudoSABR
10-18-2013, 12:53 PM
Ugh, if the Twins spent 68 million on a bat before they spent that money on front-end starter, everyone would be up-in-arms, as they should be.

Willihammer
10-18-2013, 03:22 PM
An $11 million per year proven commodity will have only proven to be very average.

Amen to this. Don't want to ink huge contracts? You're going to have to take bigger risks. 6/86 for the best hitter in Cuba ATM seems like a good compromise and one every "mid-market" team should be all over.

jokin
10-18-2013, 03:35 PM
I love this signing for the Twins. This means Adam Dunn OR this guy is playing 1B/LF. That's 'greener' pastures for the Twins. Very slow and liabilities in the field. Adam Dunn's D-WAR is -2.4. Can't wait to see him or Abreu in the field for the White Sox.

According to Buster Olney, "most" (whatever that means) industry experts feel he's a very risky acquisition (http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/9841115/chicago-white-sox-agree-record-deal-cuban-free-agent-1b-jose-abreu-reports) and weary on his guy's ability to transition to MLB.

It's not even assumed he'll start with the big club next year.

If he cost 'only' $11M/per, why didn't the Yankees put 2 pennies together and get him?

Lyle Overbay, Mark Reynolds, Kevin Youkilis, Travis Hafner, & Curtis Granderson were responsible for most of the DH at-bats and they represent $37.5M coming off the books.

Why wouldn't they sign him...if he was only $11M/yr to sign?

How about Boston? Mike Napoli is a FA after the season. He cost $13M.

They must not think Abreu could hit .259 AVG 23 HR 92 RBI in 579 at-bats (Napoli's numbers)...and for a cheaper price to boot.

Uhhh, I doubt that's what they're thinking at all, the Yankees are frying much bigger fish than this one (Cano, Tanaka, to name two). And they're trying to significantly reduce their payroll, besides.

jokin
10-18-2013, 03:41 PM
Ugh, if the Twins spent 68 million on a bat before they spent that money on front-end starter, everyone would be up-in-arms, as they should be.

Speak for yourself, most certainly not everyone would be up in arms. There is a huge power hole in the lineup right now, and this was a very affordable option for a guy who plays in Cuban baseball like a hybrid of Prince Fielder/Miguel Cabrera- even if his numbers only translate to Cespedes-level production in the AL. And there's more than enough payroll room for pitching acquisitions, Abreu would move the projected payroll bar up to only around $65M.

jokin
10-18-2013, 03:47 PM
My main point is that he appears to be a defensive liability (or a primary DH). Taking a risk is always good (and I would have been beyond happy if they would have taken a shot), I can just see the logic in passing at that price point with a low defensive upside. Seems to be half the player of Puig/Cespedes for more money. I hope that he stinks for the Sox, or you will be dead on.

While I'd happily take on half of a Puig, is he really half of a Cespedes (offensively)? He had better contemporary Cuban League production numbers than Cespedes. And as Fielder has proven, being a defensive liability at first is really not very significant if he can produce halfway decently at the plate.

raindog
10-18-2013, 04:15 PM
Ugh, if the Twins spent 68 million on a bat before they spent that money on front-end starter, everyone would be up-in-arms, as they should be.
Once again, 11 million a year is not a burden on the payroll. Period.

mike wants wins
10-18-2013, 08:07 PM
They are allowed to fix one problem at a time. Not one signing will solve all their problems. Signing no one, otoh, will solve zero problems. Let us hope he is only a AAAA player, and not good.

darin617
10-18-2013, 09:36 PM
Frustrating that he's going within the division, and the Twins weren't interested. I sure hope they make me look like an idiot, but they should have gone after the guy. 6 years, 68 million is not unreasonable, and wouldn't have crippled the payroll if he failed.

Exactly, it's less than Morneau was getting paid and it's not like your paying him $23M/yr

TheLeviathan
10-18-2013, 09:45 PM
I guess I'm not concerned about the ordering of significant signings. I'm more concerned that we won't have any at all.

Twins Daily Admin
10-19-2013, 12:37 AM
So this must mean they're not bringing back Konerko.

I wonder if the Twins will talk to him.

kab21
10-19-2013, 03:56 AM
I wouldn't have been against signing Abreu but my eyes (in person) saw a youngster that moved like a 32 yr old with a really long swing. He has put up some ridiculous numbers in international competition but that international competition wasn't always MLB caliber and sometimes that is the step where long swings get exposed.

I'm also hoping that the Twins are hanging onto their cash to make a good pitcher signings and possibly even add a Nick Swisher type. Obviously Choo will be very expensive but I would love Mauer/Choo back to back with guys like Buxton/Sano/Arcia/rosario surrounding them in a couple of years.

PseudoSABR
10-19-2013, 11:20 AM
Once again, 11 million a year is not a burden on the payroll. Period.I guess it's not if you have so little invested in your rotation. Priorities matter.

old nurse
10-19-2013, 12:08 PM
Once again, 11 million a year is not a burden on the payroll. Period.
It is if it is a below average player. See any complaint about Blackburn's contract.

PseudoSABR
10-19-2013, 12:56 PM
No, this deal would not have been prohibitive in signing another or two more similar contracts (though 68mil isn't chump change, even if over six years), but the reality is that the Twins are likely to only commit that kind of money to one non-organizational player this offseason. And I'd rather that player be a pitcher.

If Abreu turns out to be Viciedo (to whom he's been compared), having that contract on the books for the next years will get less and less palatable.

TheLeviathan
10-19-2013, 01:40 PM
I don't believe we will ever see a contract of 6 years given to a pitcher by Ryan. I hope he proves me wrong, but deals like this strike me as the only kinds of larger commitments we'll see.

TheLeviathan
10-19-2013, 01:47 PM
It is if it is a below average player. See any complaint about Blackburn's contract.

This assumes the payroll would be used otherwise. It also assumes Abreu is a below average player. How good he will be remains to be seen, but if fear of disappointing results is going to drive your contract signings - you might as well not even bother. Great players and talented players disappoint every year for any number of reasons.

Plus, Ryan is paid to make sure he utilizes his resources effectively. So far, he isn't earning his own paycheck either.

jokin
10-19-2013, 07:47 PM
So this must mean they're not bringing back Konerko.

I wonder if the Twins will talk to him.

Exactly what I commented on in the Twins thread. Just exactly the way the Twins think, hope lightining strikes twice- aging thumper finds temporary new life- ala Jim Thome. Konerko's a great guy like Thome, but is that really the direction a rebuilding team should be headed?

kab21
10-19-2013, 09:52 PM
Exactly what I commented on in the Twins thread. Just exactly the way the Twins think, hope lightining strikes twice- aging thumper finds temporary new life- ala Jim Thome. Konerko's a great guy like Thome, but is that really the direction a rebuilding team should be headed?

Konerko would be a fine signing if the team didn't already have Willingham and Doumit filling the role of aging players that shouldn't play in the field. 2 of those types is probably too many and 3 is just silly for a rebuilding team.

jokin
10-19-2013, 11:43 PM
Konerko would be a fine signing if the team didn't already have Willingham and Doumit filling the role of aging players that shouldn't play in the field. 2 of those types is probably too many and 3 is just silly for a rebuilding team.

Exactly. Konerko's a class act and potentially a good team mentor, but there are plenty of younger and more able-bodied and productive veterans available in Free Agency that might also provide a leadership role, as well.

old nurse
10-20-2013, 06:06 AM
This assumes the payroll would be used otherwise. It also assumes Abreu is a below average player. How good he will be remains to be seen, but if fear of disappointing results is going to drive your contract signings - you might as well not even bother. Great players and talented players disappoint every year for any number of reasons.

Plus, Ryan is paid to make sure he utilizes his resources effectively. So far, he isn't earning his own paycheck either.

Chastising for not spending the money assumes he will be an above average first baseman. They are paid to evaluate talent. It is not fear of disappointment, it is called talent evaluation. Would you pay 68 million for Jamie D'Antona? You see big numbers for a player and think they will translate to major league success. Power from a long swing disappears with a plus fastball.

TheLeviathan
10-20-2013, 10:46 AM
Chastising for not spending the money assumes he will be an above average first baseman. They are paid to evaluate talent. It is not fear of disappointment, it is called talent evaluation. Would you pay 68 million for Jamie D'Antona? You see big numbers for a player and think they will translate to major league success. Power from a long swing disappears with a plus fastball.

If they avoided this because he's going to be a sub-par player - great! Hopefully they're right. But at this point, we have every reason to believe the reason was because his price went too high.

What we do know for sure, that is the most disappointing part for many I think, is that he was one of only a few options this young available in FA.

old nurse
10-20-2013, 04:22 PM
If they avoided this because he's going to be a sub-par player - great! Hopefully they're right. But at this point, we have every reason to believe the reason was because his price went too high.

What we do know for sure, that is the most disappointing part for many I think, is that he was one of only a few options this young available in FA.

3 years ago Adam Dunn signed a 4/56 contract. If Abru's agent thought he could hit home runs like Adam Dunn then he would have went for a short 2-3 year contract so he could cash in. How many 34 year olds get the monster contract? For the level Abru will perform at, you are correct. The price went too high.

TheLeviathan
10-20-2013, 11:18 PM
3 years ago Adam Dunn signed a 4/56 contract. If Abru's agent thought he could hit home runs like Adam Dunn then he would have went for a short 2-3 year contract so he could cash in. How many 34 year olds get the monster contract? For the level Abru will perform at, you are correct. The price went too high.

Neither of us know how those negotiations go. For some of these guys the larger total dollar guarantee may be more appealing. Adam Dunn had already been established and made a bunch of money, the situations are very different.

jokin
10-20-2013, 11:56 PM
3 years ago Adam Dunn signed a 4/56 contract. If Abru's agent thought he could hit home runs like Adam Dunn then he would have went for a short 2-3 year contract so he could cash in. How many 34 year olds get the monster contract? For the level Abru will perform at, you are correct. The price went too high.

If I could have a nickel for every time someone said the price went too high on a Free Agent....ah well....It's the price for staying in business- not a bad deal at all, especially when you're replacing the previous first baseman at a huge discount.

Since you seem to somehow know in advance the level he will perform at, would you care to share his 2014 batting slash with the Community- so to take away the doubt, mystery and angst the rest of us have in not knowing how- and why- Terry Ryan so miraculously dodged this bullet?

Looking at the qualified First Basemen at the top of the bottom half in WAR this year (ie, "mediocre"):

Prince Fielder WAR 2.2 .279/.362/.457 (25HR) Salary: 9/$214M
Anthony Rizzo WAR 1.6 .233/.323/.419 (23HR) Salary: 9/$70M
Nick Swisher WAR 2.4 .246/.341/.423 (22HR) Salary: 5/$80M


Justin Morneau WAR 0.8 .259/.323/.411 (17HR) Salary: 6/$80M

Here's what his Cuban native contemporary did in 2013, his WAR number (2.3) is not comparable because he plays OF:

Yoenis Cespedes .240/.294/.442 (26 HR) Salary 4+2/$36+$32?=$68M?

That $68M is a reasonable, low-ball estimate forecasting for Cespedes' last 2 yet-unsigned arb years, in 2016 and 2017 @$16M/yr- and curiously, it's the same as Abreu's contract number. Their respective hitting numbers in Cuba were similar, with Abreu besting Cespedes more often than not.

I think most Sox fans will be thrilled if and when Abreu produces numbers superior to those listed above- in the very-hitter-friendly launching pad that is US Cellular Field. Many Twins fans would have been similarly thrilled.

And Oh Yeah, about that "long swing"? We've still got a sainted guy who still hangs around the ballpark.....and he literally speaks Abreu's language. Tony-O could have fixed that hitch....muy rapido!

old nurse
10-21-2013, 06:33 AM
I

Looking at the qualified First Basemen at the top of the bottom half in WAR this year (ie, "mediocre"):

Prince Fielder WAR 2.2 .279/.362/.457 (25HR) Salary: 9/$214M
Anthony Rizzo WAR 1.6 .233/.323/.419 (23HR) Salary: 9/$70M
Nick Swisher WAR 2.4 .246/.341/.423 (22HR) Salary: 5/$80M


Justin Morneau WAR 0.8 .259/.323/.411 (17HR) Salary: 6/$80M




Morneau hasn't been the same post concussion. For Abru to be a comparable he would have to be kicked in the head. All of the 1b you cited (Swisher was signed to be a RF but played 1b) had off seasons. But it does prove my point, if the agent thought he was going to produce he would have went for a shorter contract. Look what these guys are paid, An argument you did not refute.
The point isn't his wage per say, rather he is not going to be a great player. How the agent did the contract is the proof. It is not the he is overpaid aspect.

John Bonnes
10-21-2013, 07:44 AM
Morneau hasn't been the same post concussion. For Abru to be a comparable he would have to be kicked in the head. All of the 1b you cited (Swisher was signed to be a RF but played 1b) had off seasons. But it does prove my point, if the agent thought he was going to produce he would have went for a shorter contract. Look what these guys are paid, An argument you did not refute.
The point isn't his wage per say, rather he is not going to be a great player. How the agent did the contract is the proof. It is not the he is overpaid aspect.

Well, almost by definition he's overpaid, in that only one team in 32 was willing to pay him that much. And while it's interesting that he chose a longer guaranteed deal over a shorter deal, I think there's a reason for that: service time. If he signs a 2-year deal, I think the club still owns his rights for four years and can offer him arbitration, etc., (or even keep him in the minors, giving him no service time.) Or at least all Cubans seem to go that route.

But you're absolutely right that we know essentially nothing about this guy. If he's a star, then 25+ teams, including the Twins, blew it. If he's a plodding DH who is mediocre, than the White Sox are tied to another long-term deal, which has been a weakness for them. And Cuban players haven't been a big strength either, I don't think. I can't remember any big breakthroughs there.

It sure would have made the offseason more interesting had the a Twins got him, though. I'd like to know why they weren't interested.

nicksaviking
10-21-2013, 09:15 AM
And Cuban players haven't been a big strength either, I don't think. I can't remember any big breakthroughs there.


For the league, or just the White Sox?

Either way, Alexei Rameriz has been a steal for Chicago. His orignial deal was 4 years for $4.75 million. It was a different time, but he was a known commodity, that was just the going rate for most Cuban bats. His new deal pays him about $30 million for four years. What a bargain for a plus defensvie and plus offensive shortstop.

Dayan Viciedo hasn't done a ton yet, but he did hit 24 HR as a 23-year old. The White Sox may not be the Dodgers, but they seem to have a better feel for this Cuban game than the Twins do. In my opinion, if the Twins don't know how to proceed with Cuban free agents, just go after the guys that the other succesful Cuban chasers are going after. It's not a sin to acknowledge another team may know more than you in a particular area.

jokin
10-21-2013, 12:58 PM
Morneau hasn't been the same post concussion. For Abru to be a comparable he would have to be kicked in the head. All of the 1b you cited (Swisher was signed to be a RF but played 1b) had off seasons. But it does prove my point, if the agent thought he was going to produce he would have went for a shorter contract. Look what these guys are paid, An argument you did not refute.
The point isn't his wage per say, rather he is not going to be a great player. How the agent did the contract is the proof. It is not the he is overpaid aspect.

Nope. The deal is directly related to service time and getting money up front should he spend time in the minor leagues- both sides get some protection in this scenario. You have still not provided any proof whatsoever in flatly stating that "he is not going to be a great player." Rather, we simply don't know what type of player he is going to be, but the evidence that we do have suggests that he at least has a good chance to produce at a level commensurate with what a middling first baseman can produce, with the potential upside to produce like Big Papi.

jokin
10-21-2013, 01:06 PM
For the league, or just the White Sox?

Either way, Alexei Rameriz has been a steal for Chicago. His orignial deal was 4 years for $4.75 million. It was a different time, but he was a known commodity, that was just the going rate for most Cuban bats. His new deal pays him about $30 million for four years. What a bargain for a plus defensvie and plus offensive shortstop.

Dayan Viciedo hasn't done a ton yet, but he did hit 24 HR as a 23-year old. The White Sox may not be the Dodgers, but they seem to have a better feel for this Cuban game than the Twins do. In my opinion, if the Twins don't know how to proceed with Cuban free agents, just go after the guys that the other succesful Cuban chasers are going after. It's not a sin to acknowledge another team may know more than you in a particular area.

Bingo. I'm also not quite sure where John was going with his statement. This is an area of the market for talent that is being exploited around the league with some documented success stories (Cuba ranks 3rd in the number of international active players on major league rosters- ahead of Japan and Canada), and the Twins are nowhere to be found. A team in a desperate situation at the position like the Twins should at least have been in the running- and the fact that the Red Sox were a finalist in the bidding tells me that a team that clearly knows what it's doing- and not just in a dire urgency situation like the Twins and White Sox- ......was doing more than just kicking the tires in this case.

ThePuck
10-21-2013, 01:42 PM
For the league, or just the White Sox?

Either way, Alexei Rameriz has been a steal for Chicago. His orignial deal was 4 years for $4.75 million. It was a different time, but he was a known commodity, that was just the going rate for most Cuban bats. His new deal pays him about $30 million for four years. What a bargain for a plus defensvie and plus offensive shortstop.

Dayan Viciedo hasn't done a ton yet, but he did hit 24 HR as a 23-year old. The White Sox may not be the Dodgers, but they seem to have a better feel for this Cuban game than the Twins do. In my opinion, if the Twins don't know how to proceed with Cuban free agents, just go after the guys that the other succesful Cuban chasers are going after. It's not a sin to acknowledge another team may know more than you in a particular area.

If talking about the 30 teams, not just the White Sox, MLB Puig and Cespedes have been pretty darn good as well.

twinsfan34
10-21-2013, 03:51 PM
Bingo. I'm also not quite sure where John was going with his statement. This is an area of the market for talent that is being exploited around the league with some documented success stories (Cuba ranks 3rd in the number of international active players on major league rosters- ahead of Japan and Canada), and the Twins are nowhere to be found. A team in a desperate situation at the position like the Twins should at least have been in the running- and the fact that the Red Sox were a finalist in the bidding tells me that a team that clearly knows what it's doing- and not just in a dire urgency situation like the Twins and White Sox- ......was doing more than just kicking the tires in this case.

Cuba was 4th. But yeah.

Opening Day rosters feature 241 players born outside the U.S. | MLB.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130401&content_id=43618468&vkey=pr_mlb&c_id=mlb)

Abreu went hitless and looked overmatched against Gerrit Cole and Tanaka. He had 300 at bats in front of scouts. He isn't an 'obscure' prospect like Puig was. Scouts have seen him. They've seen him a lot. Scouts can be wrong of course. But he was seen often by all 30 MLB teams. Astros were the only other formal bid I had heard of. $55M. What did the Red Sox bid?

twinsfan34
10-21-2013, 04:07 PM
And I would say the Red Sox are actually not that successful when it comes to international scouting success.

Xander Bogaerts could help them (Amateur Free Agent). Matsuaka's 6 years at $103M (posting fee + salarly) for 1 good season and 1 above average season with 4 horrible seasons, to me, has to be considered a big black eye.

Tazawa and Doubront are the only other international signees on the Red Sox roster. Jose Iglesias would have been a 3rd. It's one of the least international rostered teams in MLB.

If I'm not mistaken, you'd have to go back to 2003 when they signed Hanley Ramirez to find a home run on an international signing by the Red Sox.

#24 Sano
10-21-2013, 04:12 PM
I must say I'm not very interested in him because we don't have a big hole(Canyon) at 1B
I truly care for pitching and Jacoby Ellsbury.

mike wants wins
10-21-2013, 04:28 PM
Wow, Cuba was fourth? I would not have guessed that in a million years*

*actually, given a million years, I may have got that correct.....

twinsfan34
10-21-2013, 04:42 PM
They did sign Anibal Sanchez in 2001...another good signing.

old nurse
10-21-2013, 06:44 PM
Well, almost by definition he's overpaid, in that only one team in 32 was willing to pay him that much. And while it's interesting that he chose a longer guaranteed deal over a shorter deal, I think there's a reason for that: service time. If he signs a 2-year deal, I think the club still owns his rights for four years and can offer him arbitration, etc., (or even keep him in the minors, giving him no service time.) Or at least all Cubans seem to go that route.

But you're absolutely right that we know essentially nothing about this guy. If he's a star, then 25+ teams, including the Twins, blew it. If he's a plodding DH who is mediocre, than the White Sox are tied to another long-term deal, which has been a weakness for them. And Cuban players haven't been a big strength either, I don't think. I can't remember any big breakthroughs there.

It sure would have made the offseason more interesting had the a Twins got him, though. I'd like to know why they weren't interested.

Kuroda was a free agent after 4 years with the Dodgers.Cesepedes deal was for 4 years. Are you sure that they are bound by the 6 year rule. Why they do not count against the international cap is years as a professional. That is why I did not think they were bound to a team for 6 years

twinsfan34
10-22-2013, 09:23 AM
Kuroda was a free agent after 4 years with the Dodgers.Cesepedes deal was for 4 years. Are you sure that they are bound by the 6 year rule. Why they do not count against the international cap is years as a professional. That is why I did not think they were bound to a team for 6 years

If there's any follow up to this question - I'd like to know/understand as well. Would go a long way as to better understand how teams can and do pursue international non-amateur free agents.

kab21
10-22-2013, 11:56 AM
If there's any follow up to this question - I'd like to know/understand as well. Would go a long way as to better understand how teams can and do pursue international non-amateur free agents.

Several Japanese and Cuban players sign contracts that specifically grant them free agency when the initial contract is completed. I have wondered if baseball was going to eliminate this but they can still do it since Guerrero did it on his contract with the Dodgers.

I'm still unsure if the posting counts or not towards the luxury tax. I wouldn't be surprised if it was prorated but I don't know.

jokin
10-22-2013, 04:14 PM
Cuba was 4th. But yeah.

Opening Day rosters feature 241 players born outside the U.S. | MLB.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130401&content_id=43618468&vkey=pr_mlb&c_id=mlb)

Abreu went hitless and looked overmatched against Gerrit Cole and Tanaka. He had 300 at bats in front of scouts. He isn't an 'obscure' prospect like Puig was. Scouts have seen him. They've seen him a lot. Scouts can be wrong of course. But he was seen often by all 30 MLB teams. Astros were the only other formal bid I had heard of. $55M. What did the Red Sox bid?

I think your source was for opening day rosters, my source was updated to reflect rosters throughout the season and it said that Cuba was 3rd and Canada was 4th:

List of current Major League Baseball players by nationality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_Major_League_Baseball_players_by_n ationality)

Ken Rosenthal stated this concerning the bidding:

"Sources: Bidding for Abreu was close and furious. Four clubs bid between $63 and $66M. #WhiteSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23WhiteSox&src=hash)’s winning bid was $68M."

jokin
10-22-2013, 04:16 PM
Kuroda was a free agent after 4 years with the Dodgers.Cesepedes deal was for 4 years. Are you sure that they are bound by the 6 year rule. Why they do not count against the international cap is years as a professional. That is why I did not think they were bound to a team for 6 years

Not according to Baseball Reference- according to them standard rules apply.

jokin
10-22-2013, 04:22 PM
Wow, Cuba was fourth? I would not have guessed that in a million years*

*actually, given a million years, I may have got that correct.....

Cuba has 21 that played major league ball in 2013 and Canada had 20, Japan with 13- it shocked me too.

jokin
10-22-2013, 04:30 PM
I must say I'm not very interested in him because we don't have a big hole(Canyon) at 1B
I truly care for pitching and Jacoby Ellsbury.

Parmelee and Colabello don't represent, at least the prospect of, the Grand Canyon in 2014?

We have the resources to do both Abreu and the other things that both you and I care to do. The Abreu signing would have merely been Step One on the team re-claiming their legitimacy.

jokin
11-01-2013, 02:59 AM
Well, almost by definition he's overpaid, in that only one team in 32 was willing to pay him that much. And while it's interesting that he chose a longer guaranteed deal over a shorter deal, I think there's a reason for that: service time. If he signs a 2-year deal, I think the club still owns his rights for four years and can offer him arbitration, etc., (or even keep him in the minors, giving him no service time.) Or at least all Cubans seem to go that route.

But you're absolutely right that we know essentially nothing about this guy. If he's a star, then 25+ teams, including the Twins, blew it. If he's a plodding DH who is mediocre, than the White Sox are tied to another long-term deal, which has been a weakness for them. And Cuban players haven't been a big strength either, I don't think. I can't remember any big breakthroughs there.

It sure would have made the offseason more interesting had the a Twins got him, though. I'd like to know why they weren't interested.

From MLB traderumors on Tuesday. It's now up to 8 teams that were in the running, with apparently 5 that were in it for the similar big dollars that he ultimately received, and curiously, the Sox familiarity with past Cubans and success with the organization was a significant factor:


1) "Also from the conference, Abreu himself stated (through his translator) that the history of Cuban players finding success in the White Sox organization was an important element for him in choosing to sign with the Sox.

2) Abreu's agent, Barry Praver, tells Dan Hayes of CSN Chicago that eight teams made offers to his client, and five of the offers hit $60+MM (Twitter link (https://twitter.com/DanHayesCSN/status/395234808172773376)). It's already been reported (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/nl-notes-rbi-program-peavy-la-russa-ellis.html) that the Rockies were surprise contenders, offering $63MM over six years."


Minnesota Twins Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/minnesota_twins/index.html)