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ThePuck
10-16-2013, 12:04 PM
Article over at the Twins portion of MLB. On the Twins main news page, before clicking on the article itself, it says' 'Rotation at forefront of Ryan's plans'

Couple of my favorite parts:

-"This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with Correia and Pelfrey'.

Yes, if better means the worst rotation in baseball in every significant category when we weren't quite the worst in every significant category last year, then yes...it was better.

-"We'll address that free-agent list, but it's not a good way to build," Ryan said. "It's a good way to supplement a roster. We're certainly going to look. There's going to be a lot of competition for quality starting, and we'll be in the mix. We certainly need to address the pitching staff."'

That's some good hemming and hawing...


Minnesota Twins seek starting rotation help for second straight offseason | twinsbaseball.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/min/minnesota-twins-seek-starting-rotation-help-for-second-straight-offseason?ymd=20131015&content_id=62979226&vkey=news_min#disqus_thread)

nicksaviking
10-16-2013, 01:00 PM
-"We'll address that free-agent list, but it's not a good way to build," Ryan said. "It's a good way to supplement a roster. We're certainly going to look. There's going to be a lot of competition for quality starting, and we'll be in the mix. We certainly need to address the pitching staff."'

That's some good hemming and hawing...


Minnesota Twins seek starting rotation help for second straight offseason | twinsbaseball.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/min/minnesota-twins-seek-starting-rotation-help-for-second-straight-offseason?ymd=20131015&content_id=62979226&vkey=news_min#disqus_thread)

I guess this is my issue. Ryan is absolutely correct, it is a good way to supplement a roster, but I think his interprtation is different than most fans and most GM's. From his tone and past forays into free agency, I think that he thinks, "supplementing" means only getting minor or modest pieces. There is no reason to think you can't "supplement" your roster with actual upgrades.

Supplement definition from Mirriam Webster: "to add something to (something) in order to make it complete"

I don't know why he thinks adding another league average pitcher would make the team more complete than adding one that would actually fill a need.

IdahoPilgrim
10-16-2013, 01:09 PM
Article over at the Twins portion of MLB. On the Twins main news page, before clicking on the article itself, it says' 'Rotation at forefront of Ryan's plans'

Couple of my favorite parts:

-"This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with Correia and Pelfrey'.

Yes, if better means the worst rotation in baseball in every significant category when we weren't quite the worst in every significant category last year, then yes...it was better.

-"We'll address that free-agent list, but it's not a good way to build," Ryan said. "It's a good way to supplement a roster. We're certainly going to look. There's going to be a lot of competition for quality starting, and we'll be in the mix. We certainly need to address the pitching staff."'

That's some good hemming and hawing...


Minnesota Twins seek starting rotation help for second straight offseason | twinsbaseball.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/min/minnesota-twins-seek-starting-rotation-help-for-second-straight-offseason?ymd=20131015&content_id=62979226&vkey=news_min#disqus_thread)

C'mon, you need to give the whole quote and not just cherry-pick the part you want to jump on. The whole quote shows that this was a preseason analysis, and included the assumption that Gibson would add to the rotation, and concludes with his tacit acknowledgement that it didn't work as he hoped.

And what did you expect for the second quote? That he's going to publicly say they're jumping in with both feet? Knowing that agents will automatically raise what they're going to ask from him when he calls?

ThePuck
10-16-2013, 01:16 PM
C'mon, you need to give the whole quote and not just cherry-pick the part you want to jump on. The whole quote shows that this was a preseason analysis, and included the assumption that Gibson would add to the rotation, and concludes with his tacit acknowledgement that it didn't work as he hoped.

And what did you expect for the second quote? That he's going to publicly say they're jumping in with both feet? Knowing that agents will automatically raise what they're going to ask from him when he calls?

I provided the link, I wasn't hiding the whole quote. He first said he thought they did better with the rotation. Doesn't matter what he said after that if he thinks the rotation was better. That was the point.

As far as your second part, he did come out last year and say something like, ' I will do everything possible to significantly improve the starting rotation for next year. '

Do you think him saying the above caused agents to automatically raise what they're going to ask from him when he called? And, if so, are you blaming him for that statement?

What he forgot to add to that promise was, 'and by everything possible I mean, as long as none of the pitchers cost more 6M or more a year or need contracts longer than 2 years, I'll do everything possible.'

He's the Meatloaf of GMs. 'I would do anything for pitching...but I won't do that!' :-)

So this year, it's hemming and hawing...I wonder how that will go over when he speaks to the season ticket holders and the potential season ticket holders?

JB_Iowa
10-16-2013, 01:21 PM
Is it ridiculous to think that a free agent could ever be a cornerstone of your rebuild?

I realize that Pavano wasn't a free agent (but close and had been a FA previously I think).

To me, he was a cornerstone of that 2009 team not just because of his results (17-11) but because he took the ball for 221 innings and provided a good role model for the rest of the starting staff.

I go back to good pitching begetting good pitching. Do the Kyle Gibson's and Alex May's and others NEED that one veteran, workhorse pitcher to help them develop? Is there more to be learned from teammates than can be learned from a pitching coach (e.g. the way Price looked to Shields in the past or the way that Scherzer, Fister et. al look to Verlander)?

Pavano wasn't a superstar by any measure but he brought a degree of professionalism and leadership (when healthy) that we just haven't seen the last couple of years.

Far from being a "supplement", I'm thinking that type of player is a cornerstone -- whether acquired by FA or trade.

nicksaviking
10-16-2013, 01:27 PM
And what did you expect for the second quote? That he's going to publicly say they're jumping in with both feet? Knowing that agents will automatically raise what they're going to ask from him when he calls?

Yes, 100% yes. Agents aren't going to be able to raise their asking price just because the Twins show interest, you don't really think Ryan signs players and acts like he is doing them a favor and could care less if they wore his uniform?

Even if for some reason they did have to pay a tiny bit more, Pohlad already threw out the welcome mat. Ryan pussyfoots around free agency year after year. Last year he played coy after the Cubs marked up the price of back end pitchers and by the end of December he was on MLB TV whining about how "sometimes you can't give your money away," while implying that free agents just don't want to come to Minnesota.

Damn right they don't, it's the land of passive agression where the GM has a reputation of not making bold moves and former players and contemporaries tell the world that the Twins can't win because they will never "Go for it."

That needs to change, if the Twins want to be players for quality free agents, they need to put out a big, bright neon sign saying "Open for business, and bring your friends!" Of course top guys don't want to come here when there is no evidence that the front office will do what it takes to win. Scream from the rooftop that things are different now and, yes damn it, we will pay you if you are talented and we will pay others like you, we are NOT your fathers Twins.

ThePuck
10-16-2013, 01:31 PM
Yes, 100% yes. Agents aren't going to be able to raise their asking price just because the Twins show interest, you don't really think Ryan signs players and acts like he is doing them a favor and could care less if they wore his uniform?

Even if for some reason they did have to pay a tiny bit more, Pohlad already threw out the welcome mat. Ryan pussyfoots around free agency year after year. Last year he played coy after the Cubs marked up the price of back end pitchers and by the end of December he was on MLB TV whining about how "sometimes you can't give your money away," while implying that free agents just don't want to come to Minnesota.

Damn right they don't, it's the land of passive agression where the GM has a reputation of not making bold moves and former players and contemporaries tell the world that the Twins can't win because they will never "Go for it."

That needs to change, if the Twins want to be players for quality free agents, they need to put out a big, bright neon sign saying "Open for business, and bring your friends!" Of course top guys don't want to come here when there is no evidence that the front office will do what it takes to win. Scream from the rooftop that things are different now and, yes damn it, we will pay you if you are talented and we will pay others like you, we are NOT your fathers Twins.

I want to take this post out for dinner and get it all liquored up :)

nicksaviking
10-16-2013, 03:31 PM
I want to take this post out for dinner and get it all liquored up :)

It likes Crown Royal, but sometimes doesn't know when to stop.

PseudoSABR
10-16-2013, 04:09 PM
Here's the full Pelfry and Correia quote, for those who care about context:

"This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with Correia and Pelfrey, thinking Gibson was going to come along, but it all goes back to starting pitching," Twins general manager Terry Ryan said. "We haven't rebounded yet. It's drafting, signing, baseball decisions, it's internationals, it's GMs, it's coaches, it's everything. It's not just one opportunity where we went awry."

First, it appears that TR squarely admits the failure to build a rotation, which was cut from the excised quote in the OP. Secondly, Correia and Pelfry (at least beyond mid May) were not the reason the Twins rotation failed horribly yet again--they were supposed to fill out the rotation, not be the only reliable starters; the problem was believing that Diamond, Worley, and Gibson could make a front-half of a rotation. There was clearly some mismanagement with Pelfry's recovery/rehab too, which should have taken place in the minors, but injuries to Diamond and Deduno may have pushed the Twins to rush him.

More, a quote like "We certainly need to address the pitching staff" is not hemming and hawing. I'm not sure what TR could say more definitively that would assuage a cynic's concern.

Look, we'll see what the Twins do, but, really, these quotes don't illuminate any new criticism--and it seems unproductive to relive the same old arguments about starting pitching and free agency from the season.

Major Leauge Ready
10-16-2013, 05:07 PM
I provided the link, I wasn't hiding the whole quote. He first said he thought they did better with the rotation. Doesn't matter what he said after that if he thinks the rotation was better. That was the point.

As far as your second part, he did come out last year and say something like, ' I will do everything possible to significantly improve the starting rotation for next year. '

Do you think him saying the above caused agents to automatically raise what they're going to ask from him when he called? And, if so, are you blaming him for that statement?

What he forgot to add to that promise was, 'and by everything possible I mean, as long as none of the pitchers cost more 6M or more a year or need contracts longer than 2 years, I'll do everything possible.'

He's the Meatloaf of GMs. 'I would do anything for pitching...but I won't do that!' :-)

So this year, it's hemming and hawing...I wonder how that will go over when he speaks to the season ticket holders and the potential season ticket holders?

What would you have done differently last year? Specifically, which FA SPs would you have signed?

Kwak
10-16-2013, 05:23 PM
Pelfrey would have nothing of the minor leagues, and I don't know when that issue was ever raised. Free agent pitching?--nearly impossible when the goal of the organization is to slash payroll. It isn't necessary to have a press conference announcing budget cuts--just look at the year-over-year payroll--it speaks for itself.

old nurse
10-16-2013, 05:55 PM
Changing a comma to a period deviates the sentence from what it meant to something different. For almost all of the free agent pitchers signed with a new team last winter a GM could say "This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with ..."
and follow the comma in the statement with some form of we didn't meet the goal.The Dodger's GM is all smiles with his signings. Cleveland with Kazmir, Cubs with Feldman. As starters that is about it. Ryan has to be happy that Correia maintained his level of pitching and did not regress or get injured.

Marta Shearing
10-16-2013, 06:13 PM
-"We'll address that free-agent list, but it's not a good way to build," Ryan said. "It's a good way to supplement a roster. We're certainly going to look. There's going to be a lot of competition for quality starting, and we'll be in the mix. We certainly need to address the pitching staff."

That's some good hemming and hawing...

It just gets old, doesn't it? Old and nauseating. He'll resign Pelphrey and call his offseason a success.

ThePuck
10-16-2013, 06:56 PM
Changing a comma to a period deviates the sentence from what it meant to something different. For almost all of the free agent pitchers signed with a new team last winter a GM could say "This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with ..."
and follow the comma in the statement with some form of we didn't meet the goal.The Dodger's GM is all smiles with his signings. Cleveland with Kazmir, Cubs with Feldman. As starters that is about it. Ryan has to be happy that Correia maintained his level of pitching and did not regress or get injured.

So it's probably a good thing I provided the whole link so people could read the whole thing. You and couple others are acting as if I was hiding it. With the people in here, does it seem feasible I would assume people wouldn't click on the link I myself provided? I pointed out things that were in it I found interesting....which I am certainly entitled to do.

This isn't the only quote out there where he said Pelfrey and Correia were bright spots and then deflected how bad the rotation was. What he said in that quote minimizes how bad the rotation was when it starts off the way it did.

If he was just praising Pelfrey and Correia (like he did before) and taking blame for the rest of rotation as a whole, it would have been said differently. Something like, 'Pelfrey and Correia worked out well (which is not true, BTW, at least in regards to Pelfrey), and then he would have gone on to say the rest of the rotation didn't turn out making our rotation bad and in need of work. But that's not how it went down, he starts by saying the 'This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with Correia and Pelfrey'

BTW, does he believe if he says Pelfrey did well enough this offseason, people will start to believe it?

USAFChief
10-16-2013, 07:02 PM
What would you have done differently last year? Specifically, which FA SPs would you have signed?

I can't speak for others but here's what I advocated last year: sign Liriano to a 3 year extension rather than deal him for nothing of any value. Offer Grienke and/or Sanchez competitive contracts.

Major Leauge Ready
10-16-2013, 07:05 PM
All the ones that turned out to be good.

Well, you can't complain about signing $6M/yr guys and then say I would have signed Liriano, Colon and Feldman. You could make a semi-reasonable case for Sanchez but signing away a FA from a team he wants to stay with is not a very reasonable position. I don't think too many people would say Grienke was realistic. He was simply out of reach, especially last year with a few more years of rebuilding ahead of us.

Lohse was a pretty ideal except that he was not coming back to Minnesota. He was the perfect fit but unfortunately that bridge was burned. Steal Kuroda away from the Yankees? That was not going to happen. That leaves three 2nd tier FAs, at the market felt there were 3 based on what they got paid.
They all performed rather poorly.

Jackson 8-18 ERA of 4.98 4/52M
Dempster 8-9 ERA of 4.57 2/26.5
Harren 10-14 ERA of 4.67 1/13

ThePuck
10-16-2013, 07:15 PM
I can't speak for others but here's what I advocated last year: sign Liriano to a 3 year extension rather than deal him for nothing of any value. Offer Grienke and/or Sanchez competitive contracts.

Also like to point out what any of us would do is irrelevant, it's what other GMs would have done to improve the rotation (in the last two offseasons, BTW, not just one)...and since our rotation was easily the worst of any in baseball...

Finally, what's done is done...he did what he did. This isn't about jumping his case, again, for what he did (or didn't do). My point is now he shouldn't try to sugarcoat how the rotation turned out or try and make it seem it wasn't as bad as it was.

BTW, the hemming and hawing wasn't about the fact that the pitching needs fixing, it's about HOW he's going to go about it and the whole 'FA isn't the answer, but we'll look, maybe, not throwing money around, but we'll be in the mix, kind of stuff that is hemming and hawing...

ashburyjohn
10-16-2013, 07:30 PM
All the ones that turned out to be good.

Moderator note: please avoid mocking another poster's position by putting words in his mouth to imply he's a second-guesser or whatnot. That way the discussion can continue without getting sidetracked.

glunn
10-16-2013, 08:06 PM
Moderator note: please avoid mocking another poster's position by putting words in his mouth to imply he's a second-guesser or whatnot. That way the discussion can continue without getting sidetracked.

Agreed, and next time that happens an infraction will be awarded.

TheLeviathan
10-16-2013, 10:45 PM
Why is it wrong to point out that a "plan" involving Correia and a still-recovering Pelfrey to rebound your rotation is a bad one?

It was plainly obvious that it was a poor plan (Or at least a highly unlikely to succeed plan) to most everyone other than the front office well before the results came in. Fangraphs wrote about it, many bloggers here wrote about it. This supposed shock at it's failure and the attempts to justify it isn't an attack on hindsight. There was plenty of foresight on this issue.

stringer bell
10-16-2013, 10:52 PM
Realistically, can the Twins sign a top-tier Free Agent? I really don't think so. They would have to overpay significantly because they just can't compete until and unless the young 'uns develop. Somebody in the second tier is possible, I think. That would be somebody with either poor performance or injuries last year, but someone who has shown they can be a #1 or #2. Third tier, the Pelfrey or Correia types, are obtainable. I hope the Twins can sign a decent second tier guy and maybe a third tier guy and get some bouncebacks.

Nick Nelson
10-16-2013, 11:36 PM
What would you have done differently last year? Specifically, which FA SPs would you have signed?
The problem was that the Twins signed pitchers without any meaningful upside. Correia and Pelfrey both pitched about as well as anyone could have reasonably expected, and they were still both below-average. Those aren't guys who have even a chance to move the needle for one of the worst rotations in baseball.

If the Twins had gambled on some pictures with actual potential -- which may have required more money, or simply a leap of faith -- they might have ended up with players who developed into assets, or trade chips. Of course, those pitchers might have also fizzled or gotten hurt, but in that case the Twins would be in no worse a position than they are now, and at least they would have tried. You can't convince me that Correia+Pelfrey signifies trying to do anything other than maintain the status quo while avoiding large financial commitments.

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 12:34 AM
Yes, 100% yes. Agents aren't going to be able to raise their asking price just because the Twins show interest, you don't really think Ryan signs players and acts like he is doing them a favor and could care less if they wore his uniform?

Even if for some reason they did have to pay a tiny bit more, Pohlad already threw out the welcome mat. Ryan pussyfoots around free agency year after year. Last year he played coy after the Cubs marked up the price of back end pitchers and by the end of December he was on MLB TV whining about how "sometimes you can't give your money away," while implying that free agents just don't want to come to Minnesota.

Damn right they don't, it's the land of passive agression where the GM has a reputation of not making bold moves and former players and contemporaries tell the world that the Twins can't win because they will never "Go for it."

That needs to change, if the Twins want to be players for quality free agents, they need to put out a big, bright neon sign saying "Open for business, and bring your friends!" Of course top guys don't want to come here when there is no evidence that the front office will do what it takes to win. Scream from the rooftop that things are different now and, yes damn it, we will pay you if you are talented and we will pay others like you, we are NOT your fathers Twins.

One of the greatest posts ever in TD history.

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 12:43 AM
I am not clear how anyone could have thought signing Pelfrey last year was some kind of answer to the rotation problem. I was still shocked that the guy was pitching before mid-May, given the injury.

Now to sign him again. Good god. If I had to bet, I would say they pursue Hughes on a two-year deal for about $20 million. And then they resign Pelfrey. And that's it. Maybe they don't even get Hughes, and Erik Bedard or someone similar comes to town.

righty8383
10-17-2013, 12:57 AM
I think Terry Ryan is not only inherently cheap, he simply doesn't like to take risks, weather on the FA market or making big trades when the team is contending. Even though the Pohlads seem to be giving their blessing to spend some money, I have a hard time believing TR will make a big signing. The Twins have never been in a better position to go after a guy like Tanaka, yet I would be floored if our favorite team was announced as the highest bidders. I don't think Terry Ryan can stand the thought of feeling responsible if, God forbid, a big ticket signing doesn't work out.

Oxtung
10-17-2013, 01:23 AM
What would you have done differently last year? Specifically, which FA SPs would you have signed?

Puck is not Terry Ryan and therefore what he would or would not have done has no bearing on the Twins, as interesting as it may have been. Ryan is not being judged on how he compares to the posters on Twins Daily, he is being judged based on how he improves this team.

Here is what we know about last off season. First, there were 15 above average free agent pitchers on the market. Second, many of those pitchers finished 2013 above average, though not all by any means (not to mention the pitchers that were below average and rebounded to have nice years like Jimenez). Third, Ryan signed two pitchers that were below average. Fourth, one of those pitchers was coming off of a significant injury. Fifth, both pitchers were below average in 2013.

As far as I can tell there are only two possible conclusions to be drawn. First, Ryan was simply punting on 2013 or second, he tried and failed to improve this rotation. Either one is unacceptable, IMO.

Terry Ryan is getting paid to make this team better. One of the tools he has at his disposal is free agency. The posters on this board can go round and round about whether Ryan could have signed pitcher X or Y but in the end it means nothing. It is up to Ryan to get these pitchers to sign whether they are initially amenable or not. If he is unable to perform his duties then he needs to be replaced.

jokin
10-17-2013, 03:09 AM
Changing a comma to a period deviates the sentence from what it meant to something different. For almost all of the free agent pitchers signed with a new team last winter a GM could say "This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with ..."
and follow the comma in the statement with some form of we didn't meet the goal.The Dodger's GM is all smiles with his signings. Cleveland with Kazmir, Cubs with Feldman.

As starters that is about it.

Ryan has to be happy that Correia maintained his level of pitching and did not regress or get injured.


Punctuate and rationalize any way you wish, but your blanket conclusions still don't adequately defend the indefensible. To be "happy" about a #5-6 level SP, who, I might add, was unwanted/unneeded by his previous employer ( an employer more than happy to, in effect, "trade" him for Liriano, for less money), for maintaining, and not regressing, from his #5-6 level as a Starting Pitcher is just a sorrowful sop to a GM's 2013 clearly failed machinations.

Liriano, Sanchez, Iwakuma, Kuroda, Colon, Guthrie, Lohse would beg to differ with your scattershot conclusion concerning that being "about it" for SPs...... they all had 2013 WAR values and/or superior performance metrics and peripherals that would have made them the Ace of the Twins staff.

Trevor0333
10-17-2013, 04:11 AM
They aren't going to spend significant $ on a SP. However the payroll will be very low the next 2 years without making any big splashs's.

Atlanta needs to resign McCann, they also need a 2B & have little to no payroll space left.

If the Twins were willing to eat most or all of Uggla's salary enabling them to resign McCann could Brian Dozier fetch Alex Wood? In a Dozier for Uggla & Wood possible deal. A Simmons/Dozier combo would be the best defensive middle infield in baseball by far. As good as Wood has looked Perkins may need to be included to sweeten the pot.

I would love to start envisioning a future Wood, Meyer, Stewart, Berrios, Gibson/May rotation

old nurse
10-17-2013, 05:01 AM
One of the greatest posts ever in TD history.

Respectfully disagree as it is the same post over and over again. In an effort to discredit to make their point once again a poster changes context. The start of the thread it is eliminating half of the sentence that Ryan spoke. What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate? If a student handed you that kind of paper, what grade would you give?

old nurse
10-17-2013, 05:21 AM
Punctuate and rationalize any way you wish, but your blanket conclusions still don't adequately defend the indefensible. To be "happy" about a #5-6 level SP, who, I might add, was unwanted/unneeded by his previous employer ( an employer more than happy to, in effect, "trade" him for Liriano, for less money), for maintaining, and not regressing, from his #5-6 level as a Starting Pitcher is just a sorrowful sop to a GM's 2013 clearly failed machinations.

Liriano, Sanchez, Iwakuma, Kuroda, Colon, Guthrie, Lohse would beg to differ with your scattershot conclusion concerning that being "about it" for SPs...... they all had 2013 WAR values and/or superior performance metrics and peripherals that would have made them the Ace of the Twins staff.


Kuroda, Colon, Guthrie, Sanchez, Iwakuma did not change teams. So out of the pitchers that CHANGED teams, 3 had good years. Greinke and Lohse because that is what you would expect, and Liriano. Changed teams, not stayed with the same team. That was the parameter I set for my thought. You can discuss how I might be wrong, but you can't change the parameter that I set. Correia for better or worse pitched about like he always has. Can't say that for Haren, Saunders, Marcum, McCarthy ....and the rest who all had seasons pretty much worse than what Correia had.

TheLeviathan
10-17-2013, 08:14 AM
Respectfully disagree as it is the same post over and over again. In an effort to discredit to make their point once again a poster changes context. The start of the thread it is eliminating half of the sentence that Ryan spoke. What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate? If a student handed you that kind of paper, what grade would you give?


There is no amount of context that turns "we thought Pelfrey and Coreia was a good plan" into a defensible idea. That idea, and the fact that Terry Ryan actually believed it, is exactly the problem.

ThePuck
10-17-2013, 09:20 AM
There is no amount of context that turns "we thought Pelfrey and Coreia was a good plan" into a defensible idea. That idea, and the fact that Terry Ryan actually believed it, is exactly the problem.

Exactly...and I had already addressed the supposed context change myself earlier when I wrote:

'This isn't the only quote out there where he said Pelfrey and Correia were bright spots and then deflected how bad the rotation was. What he said in that quote minimizes how bad the rotation was when it starts off the way it did.

If he was just praising Pelfrey and Correia (like he did before) and taking blame for the rest of rotation as a whole, it would have been said differently. Something like, 'Pelfrey and Correia worked out well (which is not true, BTW, at least in regards to Pelfrey), and then he would have gone on to say the rest of the rotation didn't turn out making our rotation bad and in need of work. But that's not how it went down, he starts by saying the 'This year we thought we did a little better with the rotation with Correia and Pelfrey...'

BTW, does he believe if he says Pelfrey did well enough this offseason, people will start to believe it?'

The context doesn't change the fact that he's trying to minimize how bad the rotation was by starting his sentence the way he did and then pointing out some supposed bright spots (Correia and Pelfrey). My comments would have been the same with the whole thing in there....but the part I omitted doesn't change the main point of what he was saying anyway. If one is adamant that it does, they had the link I provided and they could discuss that instead of deflecting.

And, again, he's deflected this year's rotation issues in at least one other interview even when directly asked about the poor rotation by pointing to Pelfrey and Correia as his bright spots, then shifting the discussion to the poor offense. That interview was posted and discussed in TD already.

nicksaviking
10-17-2013, 09:27 AM
What you label as a great post takes what Ryan said while laughing as whining. How do you have a discussion with people when you cannot have faith in what they cite as being accurate?

Well as long as your interpretation of that interview is the accurate one.

Is the zero inflection of hyperbole rule not in effect when one defends Terry Ryan?


The Dodger's GM is all smiles with his signings. Cleveland with Kazmir, Cubs with Feldman. As starters that is about it. Ryan has to be happy that Correia maintained his level of pitching and did not regress or get injured.

No other team was happy with their free agent starters?

I still stand by the whining statement, he may have been laughing, but it was in frustration and the comment was not helping the cause or the perception of the Twins as a free agent destination. It sounded like childish grousing.

drivlikejehu
10-17-2013, 09:34 AM
I think Terry Ryan is not only inherently cheap, he simply doesn't like to take risks, weather on the FA market or making big trades when the team is contending. Even though the Pohlads seem to be giving their blessing to spend some money, I have a hard time believing TR will make a big signing. The Twins have never been in a better position to go after a guy like Tanaka, yet I would be floored if our favorite team was announced as the highest bidders. I don't think Terry Ryan can stand the thought of feeling responsible if, God forbid, a big ticket signing doesn't work out.

I don't think this really explains things. First of all, it's not Ryan's money. And he's well under his budget for spending Pohlad's money. So there's no real "risk" involved in signing second-tier free agents.

spycake
10-17-2013, 09:36 AM
I would love to start envisioning a future Wood, Meyer, Stewart, Berrios, Gibson/May rotation

Don't mean to stomp on your optimism, but leaving aside Wood, how often has a near-100% unproven projected rotation ever come to fruition? I mean, that is rebuilding in the extreme. Even the late-90s Twins had Radke established before adding Milton etc.

spycake
10-17-2013, 09:53 AM
I don't think this really explains things. First of all, it's not Ryan's money. And he's well under his budget for spending Pohlad's money. So there's no real "risk" involved in signing second-tier free agents.

It should be noted that TR's aversion to risk extends well beyond traditional free agency. He's also never inked a significant international free agent (at least, not before the spending limits were put in place), never went above-slot on a draft choice (again, before the spending caps were adopted), and as much as he was called "Trader Terry" and indeed made some good ones, he has a fairly conservative trade history too -- generally only trading from surplus for modest returns.

I'm starting to think it goes beyond risk aversion. I think TR and the Twins staff/ownership in general approach the team almost like a high school or amateur team: we'll do our best to build a team with the players we're given, and we don't mind taking some lumps because that's the cyclical nature of the game. In some ways, it's refreshing compared to the win-at-all-costs attitude, but it's also frustrating when there is obvious talent here (both on the field, as in 2002-2010, and in the front office) but they seemingly limit themselves to only the most basic methods of player acquisition.

Major Leauge Ready
10-17-2013, 10:24 AM
I will join you in disagreement but I don’t think purposeful misrepresentation is worthy of the respect you have shown. If a student does not provide credible research it is poor work. Providing a link does not change the fact this was purposefully misleading. This would not be tolerated within a professional environment. To label this a great post is truly sad.

ThePuck
10-17-2013, 10:34 AM
One of the greatest posts ever in TD history.

There seems to be a lot of confusion over which post you are saying this about...even though you quoted it :-)

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 11:17 AM
There seems to be a lot of confusion over which post you are saying this about...even though you quoted it :-)

Yep. It wasn't yours, Puck, it wasn't yours . . .

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 11:29 AM
For the record, I would still be happy with Edwin Jackson even in the unlikely scenario that his numbers in Wrigley wouldn't have changed inside TF. I still bet that he is better than Correia next year and certainly better than Pelfrey. And he would be around into the "new era" that is coming someday. I'll eat crow about Shaun Marcum, though.

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 11:33 AM
A lot of much ado about nothing regarding TP's "deception" here. Maybe if Correia was the 2nd best pitcher and Pelfrey the 3rd best pitcher signed by the Twins last season, there could have been actual hope in those two. Correia performed well for a 4-5 starter. Pelfrey is not good (I wonder how many times I have typed this at TD?).

Riverbrian
10-17-2013, 11:37 AM
I read the entire quote from Terry Ryan. I honestly see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Seemed pretty straightforward to me.

However, I also didn't see our 60 year old business manager carrying coffee back to her office when I collided with her this morning. We all see different things I guess.

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 11:46 AM
I read the entire quote from Terry Ryan. I honestly see absolutely nothing wrong with it. Seemed pretty straightforward to me.

However, I also didn't see our 60 year old business manager carrying coffee back to her office when I collided with her this morning. We all see different things I guess.

Since you're still in good humor I take it that she got burned and not you?

drivlikejehu
10-17-2013, 11:55 AM
It should be noted that TR's aversion to risk extends well beyond traditional free agency. He's also never inked a significant international free agent (at least, not before the spending limits were put in place), never went above-slot on a draft choice (again, before the spending caps were adopted), and as much as he was called "Trader Terry" and indeed made some good ones, he has a fairly conservative trade history too -- generally only trading from surplus for modest returns.

I'm starting to think it goes beyond risk aversion. I think TR and the Twins staff/ownership in general approach the team almost like a high school or amateur team: we'll do our best to build a team with the players we're given, and we don't mind taking some lumps because that's the cyclical nature of the game. In some ways, it's refreshing compared to the win-at-all-costs attitude, but it's also frustrating when there is obvious talent here (both on the field, as in 2002-2010, and in the front office) but they seemingly limit themselves to only the most basic methods of player acquisition.

Technically the Twins have gone over-slot on draft choices, though not at the top of the draft.

I think you are right about the Twins' general attitude but I can't characterize it as even partially 'refreshing' because it's just not very smart, while also being a disservice to fans. In this case it's just baseball, but such rigidity and close-mindedness is an ugly thing in the 'real world'.

ThePuck
10-17-2013, 12:34 PM
A lot of much ado about nothing regarding TP's "deception" here. Maybe if Correia was the 2nd best pitcher and Pelfrey the 3rd best pitcher signed by the Twins last season, there could have been actual hope in those two. Correia performed well for a 4-5 starter. Pelfrey is not good (I wonder how many times I have typed this at TD?).

Serious question (cause I can't remember and I can't look it up right now). After our rotation was really bad in 2011, who did we go out and get to fix it? I remember Marquis, but who else? Starting to wonder if this story shouldn't have mentioned third straight offseason instead of second straight offseason.

JB_Iowa
10-17-2013, 12:41 PM
Honestly, I do think that TR is cheap -- and it really doesn't matter that he is spending Pohlad's money and not his own. It is probably (to him) the mere idea of spending it that gives him heartburn.

And, you know what, having a few "cheapskates" in your organization is a good thing. Its bad to have people who think that they can (and should) buy anything they want. I'm just not sure that having a real cheapskate at the top of the organization is the best. It depends on how much he can take his boss' words about spending this off-season to heart.

I guess we'll see.

Oxtung
10-17-2013, 12:52 PM
I think Terry Ryan is not only inherently cheap, he simply doesn't like to take risks, weather on the FA market or making big trades when the team is contending. Even though the Pohlads seem to be giving their blessing to spend some money, I have a hard time believing TR will make a big signing. The Twins have never been in a better position to go after a guy like Tanaka, yet I would be floored if our favorite team was announced as the highest bidders. I don't think Terry Ryan can stand the thought of feeling responsible if, God forbid, a big ticket signing doesn't work out.

I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.

My uncle spent his entire career in sales for a nationally recognized shoe brand. He was very good at his job and retired while in his early 40's. He lives in a private community here in the cities where house values are in the 7 figures. Essentially he has enough money that he will never have to worry about affording something.

He also has a unique way of looking at the world, it may have been what made him so successful at his job. When he is looking to buy a service or product his first step isn't to look around for the best deal, instead it is to decide what he believes that product or service is worth. How much would it cost for my uncle to do or make it himself? He doesn't care what the going rate is, only what he thinks the value should be. So, when his home owners association set out to contract their landscaping services he had a price in mind that he was looking for. When none of the bids came back as reasonable, in his mind, he told the other home owners that he would take on the landscaping duties himself and told them what his fee would be, which was significantly less than the professionals. So, every summer my cousin and I would find ourselves out landscaping with my uncle because the "pros" didn't meet his price point expectations. Now, that sounds like just being cheap, and I'm not sure that it isn't, but that is only one side of the equation.

On the other hand, he will spend when he thinks something meets his price point expectations. One of his first jobs was as a regional sales representative for said shoe brand. He was responsible for North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota sales. He needed a vehicle that was capable of getting him around safely, economically and reliably, over long distances. His decision was to buy a brand new Mercedes-Benz. In his low 20's he knew it would be a stretch to afford it, he had to significantly leverage himself those first few years, and had to make sacrifices to make it work. However, at the time Mercedes-Benz were much more reliable than American made vehicles, less time in the shop meant more time selling, it would last much longer (he still owns it today though it doesn't get driven very often), and it was a diesel so it got better gas mileage than all of his other alternatives. So, in the end this seemingly expensive car would meet all of his criteria and, 15 years down the road, be a better deal. It met his price point expectations.

Is my uncle cheap? Well, he shops at dollar stores, Wal-Mart, Menards and Costco almost exclusively. He does his own (and his neighbors) landscaping even though it wouldn't scratch his pocketbook to hire a company to do it for him. Hell, he even makes his own stakes for tacking down landscaping cloth because he doesn't feel the options commercially available are of a high enough quality and cost too much.

Is my uncle a big spender? Well, he has some very valuable pieces of art work and relics that he has collected from around the world on his travels. One time he paid a company to custom make a shotgun for a lady friend who wanted to try out hunting for the first time. She was left handed, short and slight of frame and nothing commercially available met my uncle's expectations.

At times my uncle seems like a miser, at other times he is a spendthrift, but in the end I don't think either description is particularly accurate. He is just a man that views the world through a unique lens and has very strong opinions about the value of things. It has been a blessing and a curse, he is set for life financially and can afford to do anything he wants, yet he doesn't have a wife or children because he drives away those who might love him with his strong ideas and opinions. So that is my uncle. You can take away from that what you wish and make your own determinations if that applies to Mr. Ryan or not.

P.S. Sorry this post was so long but I couldn't find a good way to shorten it without compromising the complexities of my uncle.

nicksaviking
10-17-2013, 12:55 PM
For the record, I would still be happy with Edwin Jackson even in the unlikely scenario that his numbers in Wrigley wouldn't have changed inside TF. I still bet that he is better than Correia next year and certainly better than Pelfrey. And he would be around into the "new era" that is coming someday. I'll eat crow about Shaun Marcum, though.

Don't eat crow about Marcum, lot's of us were interested and he would have been a worthy gamble as he had a reasonable degree of upside. Had the Twins signed him and he failed, I would still be applauding the effort, just as I would if they'd acquired Jackson, Dempster or Haren. But it wouldn't only be like-minded fans who would have appreciated the effort, it would also have been the players on the roster who saw that management was trying to throw them a life-line. It would have been current and future free agents would see that the Twins were serious suitors.

TheLeviathan
10-17-2013, 01:01 PM
This discussion isn't about results as nick hints at. This is about what the rational thing to expect was. Ryan's comments are about what he expected before the season. Guys like Marcum, Jackson, and McCarthy didn't have good years - but they all offered vastly superior upside than what we signed.

We saw about the best we could expect from our signings....so what exactly did Ryan expect beforehand that he thought they'd make a dramatic difference?

Riverbrian
10-17-2013, 01:03 PM
Since you're still in good humor I take it that she got burned and not you?

Knocked her flat... She didn't have a chance. Bowled her little body right over... Right to the ground. The coffee ended up staining the wall. She also cleans the building at night for a little extra on her paycheck... so I'm sure she will clean it right up.

I learned a few lessons...

1. Don't read what you printed off on your way back from the copier

2. No matter who was at fault in the collision. Your Co-workers will assume that it wasn't the fault of the 60 year old female lying on the ground.

3 Women at that age make a funny sound. It isn't the "Ooof" type sound that you would imagine.

Riverbrian
10-17-2013, 01:10 PM
I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.

My uncle spent his entire career in sales for a nationally recognized shoe brand. He was very good at his job and retired while in his early 40's. He lives in a private community here in the cities where house values are in the 7 figures. Essentially he has enough money that he will never have to worry about affording something.

He also has a unique way of looking at the world, it may have been what made him so successful at his job. When he is looking to buy a service or product his first step isn't to look around for the best deal, instead it is to decide what he believes that product or service is worth. How much would it cost for my uncle to do or make it himself? He doesn't care what the going rate is, only what he thinks the value should be. So, when his home owners association set out to contract their landscaping services he had a price in mind that he was looking for. When none of the bids came back as reasonable, in his mind, he told the other home owners that he would take on the landscaping duties himself and told them what his fee would be, which was significantly less than the professionals. So, every summer my cousin and I would find ourselves out landscaping with my uncle because the "pros" didn't meet his price point expectations. Now, that sounds like just being cheap, and I'm not sure that it isn't, but that is only one side of the equation.

On the other hand, he will spend when he thinks something meets his price point expectations. One of his first jobs was as a regional sales representative for said shoe brand. He was responsible for North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota sales. He needed a vehicle that was capable of getting him around safely, economically and reliably, over long distances. His decision was to buy a brand new Mercedes-Benz. In his low 20's he knew it would be a stretch to afford it, he had to significantly leverage himself those first few years, and had to make sacrifices to make it work. However, at the time Mercedes-Benz were much more reliable than American made vehicles, less time in the shop meant more time selling, it would last much longer (he still owns it today though it doesn't get driven very often), and it was a diesel so it got better gas mileage than all of his other alternatives. So, in the end this seemingly expensive car would meet all of his criteria and, 15 years down the road, be a better deal. It met his price point expectations.

Is my uncle cheap? Well, he shops at dollar stores, Wal-Mart, Menards and Costco almost exclusively. He does his own (and his neighbors) landscaping even though it wouldn't scratch his pocketbook to hire a company to do it for him. Hell, he even makes his own stakes for tacking down landscaping cloth because he doesn't feel the options commercially available are of a high enough quality and cost too much.

Is my uncle a big spender? Well, he has some very valuable pieces of art work and relics that he has collected from around the world on his travels. One time he paid a company to custom make a shotgun for a lady friend who wanted to try out hunting for the first time. She was left handed, short and slight of frame and nothing commercially available met my uncle's expectations.

At times my uncle seems like a miser, at other times he is a spendthrift, but in the end I don't think either description is particularly accurate. He is just a man that views the world through a unique lens and has very strong opinions about the value of things. It has been a blessing and a curse, he is set for life financially and can afford to do anything he wants, yet he doesn't have a wife or children because he drives away those who might love him with his strong ideas and opinions. So that is my uncle. You can take away from that what you wish and make your own determinations if that applies to Mr. Ryan or not.

P.S. Sorry this post was so long but I couldn't find a good way to shorten it without compromising the complexities of my uncle.

Interesting read... Thanks for posting. There is nuance in everyone. Terry Ryan may not be a robot but he does speak awfully monotone.

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 01:15 PM
This discussion isn't about results as nick hints at. This is about what the rational thing to expect was. Ryan's comments are about what he expected before the season. Guys like Marcum, Jackson, and McCarthy didn't have good years - but they all offered vastly superior upside than what we signed.

We saw about the best we could expect from our signings....so what exactly did Ryan expect beforehand that he thought they'd make a dramatic difference?

You're right. Definitely. That said, in Marcum's case there were such worries that I thought were exaggerated about his health and I was willing to just ignore them. Now, he could very well be good again going forward.

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 01:16 PM
Knocked her flat... She didn't have a chance. Bowled her little body right over... Right to the ground. The coffee ended up staining the wall. She also cleans the building at night for a little extra on her paycheck... so I'm sure she will clean it right up.

I learned a few lessons...

1. Don't read what you printed off on your way back from the copier

2. No matter who was at fault in the collision. Your Co-workers will assume that it wasn't the fault of the 60 year old female lying on the ground.

3 Women at that age make a funny sound. It isn't the "Ooof" type sound that you would imagine.

(No reply to this is even possible)

spycake
10-17-2013, 01:45 PM
I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.

Nice post, Oxtung. To tie it back to the Twins:

TR wouldn't pay the landscaping companies either, but he also seems more willing to tolerate poor landscaping. What would your uncle do if it turned out he and his no-good nephew were poor landscapers? :)

Also, TR only gets a Mercedes through a police auction or something. In the event it indeed turns out to be a reliable car, he still junks it after the factory maintenance warranty expires.

Kwak
10-17-2013, 02:02 PM
Recall: The number of times mentioned that the Twins (Ryan) were complicated as the "way to run a team"; the quote from Moneyball about "...if we win, it will change baseball."; the numerous times the AJ trade has been referenced; GMs have individual goals too--and egos!

Recall just before the '08 season that the Twins deemed it a "rebuilding season". Hence, there was no consideration to allocating the Santana and Hunter salaries to new players. Goodness knows the Twins knew they had a big hole at 3B, major holes in the OF, a rotation comprised of rookies and 1-year guys. So, Livan Hernandez was the only FA added! Folks, I believe the real cheapskates are the owners. The new stadium was already approved and design underway--no need to spend on ballplayers to try to repeat earlier success. Ryan is their GM because he wants (craves) the accolades from other GMs on how savvy he runs things on a low budget. It's so sad that Houston and Miami have undercut the Twins so substantially on payroll, that anything less than a World Series will pale in comparision to Houston and Miami on the subject of "running a tight ship". Instead, the Twins are simply viewed as a bad team with an albatross of a contract for one player and millions committed to veterans who won't make a difference.

Nick Nelson
10-17-2013, 03:15 PM
Serious question (cause I can't remember and I can't look it up right now). After our rotation was really bad in 2011, who did we go out and get to fix it? I remember Marquis, but who else? Starting to wonder if this story shouldn't have mentioned third straight offseason instead of second straight offseason.
In 2012 they had Liriano, Baker and Pavano all still in the mix, with the slim hope that Blackburn could provide something, so the passive approach was certainly more understandable in that instance. Although it wasn't too tough to see the immense downside of that group (http://twinsdaily.com/175-dangerous-gambles-rotation.html).

ThePuck
10-17-2013, 03:26 PM
In 2012 they had Liriano, Baker and Pavano all still in the mix, with the slim hope that Blackburn could provide something, so the passive approach was certainly more understandable in that instance. Although it wasn't too tough to see the immense downside of that group (http://twinsdaily.com/175-dangerous-gambles-rotation.html).

Indeed it wasn't too tough to see...In 2011, Baker pitched like 20 games, Liriano had an ERA over 5.00 and Pavano was 35 with an ERA in the low 4.00s.

And shouldn't teams always be looking to improve no matter what? For all the talk about how players won't come to perennial losing teams, this was only our first really bad season after a decade of very good records. Wouldn't that have made it a prime time to improve the 26th ranked rotation in ERA?

Shane Wahl
10-17-2013, 04:28 PM
The great paradox is that the best way for the Twins to land one good FA is to land two or three of them . . .

jokin
10-17-2013, 05:04 PM
Indeed it wasn't too tough to see...In 2011, Baker pitched like 20 games, Liriano had an ERA over 5.00 and Pavano was 35 with an ERA in the low 4.00s.

And shouldn't teams always be looking to improve no matter what? For all the talk about how players won't come to perennial losing teams, this was only our first really bad season after a decade of very good records. Wouldn't that have made it a prime time to improve the 26th ranked rotation in ERA?

Shhhh, you're harshing on the Kumbaya meme....we just gotta give Ryan enough time to shut down the remainder of the old floats and scattered horse dung left in the organization from 2011..... and then he'll get the new parade cranked up again, eventually....and honestly, what Twins fan didn't love the 90s (after '91)? Good times waiting for the parade to start was had by one and all......of which I remember most fondly the Twins generous offer of a General Admission 81 game Season Ticket package for $81.....hey, by this gesture at least they tacitly admitted they were offering a AAA product.......good times, indeed.....

JB_Iowa
10-17-2013, 05:21 PM
Since the article title is "seeking rotation help for the 2nd straight season" not necessarily impale Terry Ryan, is there anyone on that free agent list that has the potential to provide what Pavano did in 2009-2010?

Innings eater, decent stuff, been through the abyss and back, somewhat charismatic with an ability to lead the staff?

I've been thinking about this with regard to young pitchers and the need for them to have some veteran leadership in the starting staff (and no, I don't really think this is Correia).

I've been looking through the Free Agent lists but that's a lot of sorting out to do. It wasn't that Pavano was a #1 but he was a lot better than anything we've seen recently and I have a gut feeling that he made the other pitchers around him better -- definitely solid in 2010 until the injuries of 2011.

I'd be interested in any thoughts anyone might have about someone comparable available through either free agency or trade.

Kwak
10-17-2013, 05:34 PM
Since the article title is "seeking rotation help for the 2nd straight season" not necessarily impale Terry Ryan, is there anyone on that free agent list that has the potential to provide what Pavano did in 2009-2010?

Innings eater, decent stuff, been through the abyss and back, somewhat charismatic with an ability to lead the staff?

I've been thinking about this with regard to young pitchers and the need for them to have some veteran leadership in the starting staff (and no, I don't really think this is Correia).

I've been looking through the Free Agent lists but that's a lot of sorting out to do. It wasn't that Pavano was a #1 but he was a lot better than anything we've seen recently and I have a gut feeling that he made the other pitchers around him better -- definitely solid in 2010 until the injuries of 2011.

I'd be interested in any thoughts anyone might have about someone comparable available through either free agency or trade.

Why not raise the bar? How about someone who is not only better than all of the others, but would nicely fit in the rotation of about 20 other teams? Perhaps even somebody who the Twins can expect to have at least 4 more decent years left in his career? My point, choose somebody who can be projected to be part of the success rather than just a bridge to the success. Of course this pitcher costs more--a lot more! But I believe it is better to put the FA pitcher budget all to one guy who can help later as well as now. One good pitcher rather than 3 KCs or 3 Pelfreys.

JB_Iowa
10-17-2013, 05:38 PM
Why not raise the bar? How about someone who is not only better than all of the others, but would nicely fit in the rotation of about 20 other teams? Perhaps even somebody who the Twins can expect to have at least 4 more decent years left in his career? My point, choose somebody who can be projected to be part of the success rather than just a bridge to the success. Of course this pitcher costs more--a lot more! But I believe it is better to put the FA pitcher budget all to one guy who can help later as well as now. One good pitcher rather than 3 KCs or 3 Pelfreys.

I have no problem with your approach ... I just don't think there's any way in H E double toothpicks that it happens.

righty8383
10-17-2013, 10:51 PM
I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.
.
I haven't met Terry Ryan either. My opinion about him being cheep is simply an observation as a fan on the outside looking in. I appreciate the rest of your story. It was a good read.

The Wise One
10-18-2013, 01:12 PM
I have never met Terry Ryan and therefore feel uncomfortable talking about his personality and any traits he may posses. However, I do have an uncle that seems to approach decisions in a similar manner, so I'll write about him and let people draw their own conclusions.

.

Your uncle spent his own money. Ryan works for someone with a directive. Ryan may well have values and want to not spend more than what he values. Ryan works for a family that has values. They also got their money through getting maximal return on their investment. There are parameters spending. Some have said Smith wanted to spend more was the philosophical difference. See where it got him. Ryan may say all he has to do is ask, but he also knows the parameters on when to ask.