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View Full Version : When the Twins go back to 12 pitchers...



Seth Stohs
04-19-2012, 01:06 PM
Reusse and Mackey were just discussing this topic on 1500espn...

Which 'hitter' is called up to the Twins? The Twins 40 man roster is currently at 39, so they could look outside of the organization as well.

Will they go with a 3rd catcher? (Very possible, in an attempt to be able to use Ryan Doumit more)
Drew Butera's on the 40 man roster. Rene Rivera and JR Towles aren't.

Will they add an infielder? Carroll and Casilla are both playing terrific right now, but both will need time off. Trevor Plouffe not an ideal backup SS.
Tsuyoshi Nishioka in on the 40 man roster. Brian Dozier, Michael Hollimon, Ray Chang, Pedro Florimon are not.

Could Ben Revere come back?

What do you think?

StormJH1
04-19-2012, 01:29 PM
I don't know for sure what they will do - 3 catchers is a good guess because we know Gardy values that. One of the interesting parts of Morneau being penciled in at DH for so many games is that prevented them from DH'ing Mauer...and if Mauer is at 1B, then you don't have the whole need for a 3rd catcher problem.

Clete Thomas seems to work as the 4th outfielder, but then there are guys like Plouffe and Parmelee who are like "5A" and "5B" outfielders.

If it were me, I would get one of the shortstops up here and get them used to MLB play. Jamey Carroll is starting to earn his money, but he's 38, and he's never been even close to a full-season SS. Dozier has a .911 OPS at AAA and really has hit at every level. He'll be 25 next month, so I really don't accept the whole "over-ripe" approach. 21 year olds need consistent playing time to improve - Dozier is at an age where he's either going to be an asset to a big league club or he's not, so it's time to find that out.

Thrylos
04-19-2012, 01:30 PM
I understand Mackey's argument for Nishioka coming back and might make sense - and if that happens Plouffe is full-time 1B/OF/DH, but I think that Gardenhire will try to make everything possible to get Butera up to the majors again.

stringer bell
04-19-2012, 01:39 PM
I think Revere is the least likely. Bringing up a third catcher has the added benefit of easing the logjam at Rochester. Bringing up either Dozier or Nishioka probably doesn't make much sense when the starters are playing well. I'm guessing it will be Butera to add "catching depth".

stringer bell
04-19-2012, 01:42 PM
The other side of this question is, "who gets sent down?" Gray is out of options, Burnett has been very good so far, Maloney and Burton have shown some progress. If they hold true to "no scholarships", I think Gray gets DFAed and I think that is the right move. If they send down the guy with the option, it will be Burnett.

Mr. Ed
04-19-2012, 01:44 PM
Bringing up a catcher is nonsense. Then you wind up putting Butera's putrid bat back in the lineup. Just when the lineup looks like it has fewer weak links, you want to put auto-out back in?

Bring up Dozier when the pitching is settled down. Or, get rid of Clete and be more serious about Parmelee/Plouffe in RF.

Mr. Ed
04-19-2012, 01:45 PM
The other side of this question is, "who gets sent down?" Gray is out of options, Burnett has been very good so far, Maloney and Burton have shown some progress. If they hold true to "no scholarships", I think Gray gets DFAed and I think that is the right move. If they send down the guy with the option, it will be Burnett.


Burnett has surprised after a horrible start. May be working his way to pressure situations. Not sure if that's good or not, but at least he can miss bats vs Gray's meat.

gunnarthor
04-19-2012, 01:47 PM
If we bring up a 3rd catcher, why not Rivera? He seemed to catch Liriano well. I'm not sure catchers have much impact on the SP but at this point, why not try?

mattsaari
04-19-2012, 01:55 PM
It seems pretty likely to be Gray who goes out, released, replaced by Butera, so Doumit can become more regular in RF. I'd like to say Towles, but he has 3 hits in 24 PA. 1 Walk and one Sac. His 3 hits have all been doubles, so there's that. Rivera has two dingers, but he's only 5 for 27. Drew's defense is a known quantity, and he's on the 40 man. I imagine the move will happen in 10 days if Hughes clears waivers and they assign him to AAA. But if Luke gets claimed / traded then the clock might tick longer.

striker_86
04-19-2012, 01:59 PM
If we bring up a 3rd catcher, why not Rivera? He seemed to catch Liriano well. I'm not sure catchers have much impact on the SP but at this point, why not try?

I agree, We have to try something different. Bring him up just to catch Frankie and see what happens. Dont mess with the infield, Carroll and Casilla are playing great.

Thrylos
04-19-2012, 02:00 PM
If we bring up a 3rd catcher, why not Rivera? He seemed to catch Liriano well. I'm not sure catchers have much impact on the SP but at this point, why not try?


Bringing up a catcher is nonsense. Then you wind up putting Butera's putrid bat back in the lineup. Just when the lineup looks like it has fewer weak links, you want to put auto-out back in?


Yes, having a 3rd catcher and especially Butera makes no sense at all, but this is Gardenhire we are talking about... For some reason he sees something in Butera the rest of the world does not...

Kirby_Waved_At_Me
04-19-2012, 02:22 PM
How much input does Gardenhire have into who is called up / demoted? Shouldn't it be the GM's call about who the personnel is at each level, then the manager's job to use them?
I'm sure the manager has the ability to suggest moves and provide feedback, but Terry Ryan would have to agree that a third catcher is the best move in order to make it, right?

SweetOne69
04-19-2012, 02:27 PM
If Smith was running the show, Butera would be up here as he gave Gardy what ever he wanted.

With Ryan in charge, Gardy would have to make a very compelling case to convince Ryan to bring up Butera. Ryan is the one who has final say on the roster. Gardy can make requests, but Ryan makes the calls.

That being said, I believe that Hughes was the "emergency" catcher. Who has that role now?

mike wants wins
04-19-2012, 02:29 PM
I would bet on an infielder.

Highabove
04-19-2012, 02:30 PM
Why would we keep Gray?
Gardy and Anderson are the ones that throw batting practice.

Gernzy
04-19-2012, 02:45 PM
We need another infielder, and I don't see how its not Nishioka. We can't keep paying him millions to play in the minors. Either that or release him.

glanzer
04-19-2012, 02:51 PM
My bet would be outside the organization. The gang down at Rochester either seems to fall into the category of "needs to play every day" or "not very good." I'm holding out for Hughes clearing waivers and coming back up.

nicksaviking
04-19-2012, 03:01 PM
I figured Thomas was going to be the fourth outfielder when he got claimed, but so far he's getting the heavy end of the rigth field platoon. With Doumit riding the pine 2 out of 3 days, and Mauer always catching the other, there is no need for a 3rd catcher. Gardy may want one, but Terry Ryan has clearly shown that he's in charge of this ship and he should know better.

That being said, if the team is going to call up a utility player, why didn't they just keep Hughes?

mattsaari
04-19-2012, 03:01 PM
Nishi is hitting 280 in the past 10 days. It would be kinda crazy to mess with an upswing right now. Let the fella get the hitting on, and see what another month can do for his confidence. A utility infielder who can play short and pinch run, probably off the waiver wire would make the most sense. OR a third catcher who can play other positions as well, and hit. I was gonna say buy low on Napoli in a trade, but he's heated up. ETA: They let Hughes go because he can't do what they need. And that's back up 2B and SS.

John Bonnes
04-19-2012, 03:05 PM
If Smith was running the show, Butera would be up here as he gave Gardy what ever he wanted.


I dont' know where this perception comes from, but I assure you, it would be hard to type a more untrue statement. The tension between Smith and Gardy was palpable.

I'll be honest - I don't know where the percetpion that Gardy loves Butera comes from. I see it mentioned here a lot. The Twins sent Butera down early, did not keep a 3rd catcher, and yet everyone is convinced Gardy loves Butera. Why? Because Butera played a lot? Butera played a lot because Gardy uses his bench guys a lot, because it's important Mauer rests a lot and because Butera was on the roster. Am I missing some smoking gun here?

John Bonnes
04-19-2012, 03:13 PM
Regarding the original topic, I'd say:

1) it may not happen anytime soon, unless there is an injury
2) The reliever who is sent down is whoever sucks the most at the time and
3) the guy called up will likely be dependent on who is fighting some nagging injury on the team.

If it was right now, I'd say the need is for Hughes. I can't see it being Revere - what role would he play? I guess I can see it being a shortstop, probably Nishioka, if they're worried enough about Plouffe's D. But I don't see why they woudl be in any hurry to move someone right now.

Thrylos
04-19-2012, 03:23 PM
John Shipley published a nice tidbit about the relationship of Ryan and Gardenhire in one of his stories yesterday (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_20425659/minnesota-twins-designate-luke-hughes-release-or-assignment). Here is a direct quote (italics) from the interim GM (emphasis mine) :

sometimes you have to come to a difficult situation, like this one, and who might go down or who might be available to go down. This is just one of those situations, and we decided the way we're going to go." The Twins now have 13 pitches on the 25-man active roster. Asked if the team can afford to keep that many for long, Ryan said it was up to manager Ron Gardenhire. "I'm just the person facilitating," he said.

So apparently Gardenhire is extremely involved in roster decisions and not "playing with what the GM gives him". Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins' latest roster decision and will probably be for the next as well.

Very interesting to see the interim GM washing his hands proclaiming that his role was "just facilititating". Very interesting, especially in light of everything he was saying about "accountability" across the organization when he was named the interim GM last November...

mike wants wins
04-19-2012, 03:34 PM
I am disappointed in that quote from Ryan. Is he in charge or not? If not, go find a gm that will be.

Jim Crikket
04-19-2012, 03:54 PM
I tend to agree with John, at least philosophically. Sending Hughes out leaves them short a back up middle infielder (sorry... Plouffe just doesn't feel any more like a legit option than Cuddyer did). But if the Twins felt that way, why not just ship out Gray yesterday instead of Hughes rather than waiting a couple of days and then losing Gray anyway and having to call up Nishi? It's kind of baffling, to be honest.

Maintaining an 8-man bullpen just makes no sense 99% of the time. Then again, given the make up of the Twins current rotation, this situation might fall in to that left over 1%.

This is all Liriano's fault, obviously. When you have a starter you can't even project to survive 3-4 innings, that forces you to make difficult, and ultimately bad, decisions. If his start Sunday turns out to be a really good one, then Hendriks is an option to send down to Rochester so he can continue getting starts while Swarzak stays in the rotation. But if Liriano lays another egg Sunday, I say they find a physical or mental impairment causing it and stash him on the DL.

Thrylos
04-19-2012, 04:05 PM
Here is comes from the horse's mouth (https://twitter.com/#!/RhettBollinger/status/193081139886436353): (paraphrasing) Gardy said that next week they will have 12 pitchers and there is a chance they will have 3 catchers.

All a plot to get Drew again in the majors.

Seth Stohs
04-19-2012, 04:05 PM
Maybe not a great comment, but Gardy absolutely should have a large say in the roster... Ryan can over-ride some of that based on business decisions...

If you've got flexibility, they can go with 13 pitchers for a little while... and what that will show is that they can also go to a 3rd catcher, not worry about Doumit or Mauer DHing, and have that spot.

nokomismod
04-19-2012, 04:20 PM
Nishi is hitting 280 in the past 10 days. It would be kinda crazy to mess with an upswing right now. Let the fella get the hitting on, and see what another month can do for his confidence. A utility infielder who can play short and pinch run, probably off the waiver wire would make the most sense. OR a third catcher who can play other positions as well, and hit. I was gonna say buy low on Napoli in a trade, but he's heated up. ETA: They let Hughes go because he can't do what they need. And that's back up 2B and SS.
I think you are right on MattSaari.
Is it wrong to hope that if the Twins keep Nishi in the minors long enough, he may retire? Nothing against him, but based on last year, I can't see any possible way that he will have success for a MLB team. I would rather try to get an Omar Vizquell type guy that will play solid backup middle infield defense and maybe mentor Alexi a bit more.

Thrylos
04-19-2012, 04:25 PM
Maybe not a great comment, but Gardy absolutely should have a large say in the roster... Ryan can over-ride some of that based on business decisions...


Agreed. But with that comes accountability for decisions when they do not pan out like in 2011, 2008, 2007, 2005, plus on the post-season rosters. And unfortunately nobody ever holds Gardenhire accountable for mediocrity, they just attribute it to external factors (like injuries, "luck", etc) or find enough excuses (and I am sure that we will see some here in reply to this ;) .) Fortunately, after the 2011 debacle the tide has started to turn and at least a large amount of Twins' fans do realize that someone should be held accountable when the team does not win...

Rosterman
04-19-2012, 04:33 PM
And the Twins will have to address Kyle Waldrop at some point, after a minor league rehab, as they would have to waive him out of the organization to keep him in the minors.

matthew0211
04-19-2012, 04:39 PM
And the Twins will have to address Kyle Waldrop at some point, after a minor league rehab, as they would have to waive him out of the organization to keep him in the minors.

Wasn't Waldrop just put on the 40-man last Sept.? He has options remaining, he can go to Rochester on a non-rehab assignment.

Thrylos
04-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Waldrop has 3 option years remaining

gunnarthor
04-19-2012, 04:41 PM
Agreed. But with that comes accountability for decisions when they do not pan out like in 2011, 2008, 2007, 2005, plus on the post-season rosters. And unfortunately nobody ever holds Gardenhire accountable for mediocrity, they just attribute it to external factors (like injuries, "luck", etc) or find enough excuses (and I am sure that we will see some here in reply to this ;) .) Fortunately, after the 2011 debacle the tide has started to turn and at least a large amount of Twins' fans do realize that someone should be held accountable when the team does not win...

I'm not sure why you don't think there hasn't been accountability in this organization? I mean, you picked the four seasons the team didn't make the playoffs. There wasn't one single decision (or 10) that made or broke those four seasons. And if Gardy's the reason we failed to make the playoffs four times, does he get credit for the six times he did make it? I guess the anti-Gardy faction of Twindom confuses me. It's like they think he's an all-powerful puppet master or something.

Thrylos
04-19-2012, 04:54 PM
I'm not sure why you don't think there hasn't been accountability in this organization? I mean, you picked the four seasons the team didn't make the playoffs. There wasn't one single decision (or 10) that made or broke those four seasons. And if Gardy's the reason we failed to make the playoffs four times, does he get credit for the six times he did make it? I guess the anti-Gardy faction of Twindom confuses me. It's like they think he's an all-powerful puppet master or something.

For starters:

After a 99-loss season the only change that was made was to get rid of someone who was a titular head. The medical staff has been proven incompetent by the day. No change. The manager and his staff led this team to a 99-loss season. No change. No other changes in the front office or in the minor leagues other than a couple in Rochester to appeace the locals in a contract year.

Look at how the Red Sox performed in 2011 (compared to how the Twins did) and look at what the Red Sox did because they did not meet expectations (compared to what the Twins did not do.) The Red Sox got rid of the Manager and General Manager who brought them a World Series and ended what they thought it was a curse of around an eon long. Because they underperformed. That is the sign of an accountable organization. The Twins who underperformed much worse did nothing (other than hack a titular head, shuffle the deck) and go their mary way of being happy with not winning since 1991.

gunnarthor
04-19-2012, 05:10 PM
For starters:

After a 99-loss season the only change that was made was to get rid of someone who was a titular head. The medical staff has been proven incompetent by the day. No change. The manager and his staff led this team to a 99-loss season. No change. No other changes in the front office or in the minor leagues other than a couple in Rochester to appeace the locals in a contract year.

Look at how the Red Sox performed in 2011 (compared to how the Twins did) and look at what the Red Sox did because they did not meet expectations (compared to what the Twins did not do.) The Red Sox got rid of the Manager and General Manager who brought them a World Series and ended what they thought it was a curse of around an eon long. Because they underperformed. That is the sign of an accountable organization. The Twins who underperformed much worse did nothing (other than hack a titular head, shuffle the deck) and go their mary way of being happy with not winning since 1991.

Actually, Francona quit and their GM took a better job. And your comment about not winning since 1991 is ridiculous. That mindset that only a world series is a winning season is laughable. Baseball has one of the most uneven playing fields in all sports. You're ignoring the vast resources other teams had, and won less with, over the last decade while blaming this team for not winning? Makes no sense.

While you don't seem to think changing the GM, bringing on Krivsky (sp), and giving Radcliff more say on the upcoming draft are all pretty big changes, I do. Last years team was destroyed by injuries. It's boring to say that, but it's true. I don't see why you throw away a successful major league coaching staff over that. I wish I knew enough about medical staff to confidently say that ours are incompetent but I don't. Smarter baseball people than me (or you) reviewed the problem last year and didn't make any change.

woolhouse
04-19-2012, 05:38 PM
The other side of this question is, "who gets sent down?" Gray is out of options, Burnett has been very good so far, Maloney and Burton have shown some progress. If they hold true to "no scholarships", I think Gray gets DFAed and I think that is the right move.

Why would you send down our winning-est pitcher right now?

That hurt to type.

It's going to be either Nishioka or Butera that get called up. Either way, the Internet will explode.

shs_59
04-19-2012, 05:43 PM
I think that 40th man spot is ALL Brian Dozier's for the taking...

IF it was May 19th and not April 19th I'd vote Dozier.....nicknamed "Bull".

Top Gun
04-19-2012, 06:08 PM
I think the Twins should just keep 13 pitchers. Pitchers are want we the most!

ashburyjohn
04-19-2012, 07:09 PM
Pitchers are want we the most!

I think you word out of your sentence.

USAFChief
04-19-2012, 07:30 PM
OR a third catcher who can play other positions as well, and hit. I was gonna say buy low on Napoli in a trade, but he's heated up.1. Name a "third catcher who can play other positions as well, and hit" who might be available. Hell, name one who ISN'T available.2. "Buy low on Napoli?" Seriously??

mike wants wins
04-19-2012, 08:06 PM
Gardy is now saying he will probably have three catchers next week? I do not get it. They have these airplane thingys.....I do not get it.

Fire Dan Gladden
04-19-2012, 08:45 PM
John,

The Butera/Gardy lovefest discussion comes from the perception that Gardy overplayed Butera (and his putrid offense) and was unwilling to look at other options. I don't necessarily believe that it was as bad as all that, but this love for certain players is a blind spot that Gardy has shown over the years.

Revere won't be back up anytime soon (barring an injury). He was sent down to get at-bats, he won't get that on the Twins bench.

Nishi is possible, but unlikely. He hasn't showed enough yet.

I would like to think that if Morneau continues to show improvement, Parmalee becomes expendable, with Morneau playing more 1B.

I like the idea of a third catcher. I would be okay with Butera if he only played in late defensive switches or emergency situations only.

Hopefully they will go outside the organization...

Fire Dan Gladden
04-19-2012, 08:51 PM
John Shipley published a nice tidbit about the relationship of Ryan and Gardenhire in one of his stories yesterday (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_20425659/minnesota-twins-designate-luke-hughes-release-or-assignment). Here is a direct quote (italics) from the interim GM (emphasis mine) :


So apparently Gardenhire is extremely involved in roster decisions and not "playing with what the GM gives him". Gardenhire was responsible for the Twins' latest roster decision and will probably be for the next as well.

Very interesting to see the interim GM washing his hands proclaiming that his role was "just facilititating". Very interesting, especially in light of everything he was saying about "accountability" across the organization when he was named the interim GM last November...


Seriously people. Ryan saying "we" is standard managment lingo. He is saying we as in the organization, even though he is the decision maker. He has always spoken in this fashion. As for him speaking to Gardy, any GM making personnel decisions about the major league club without input from the manager is an idiot. Of course Gardy will be providing input to Ryan.

whydidnt
04-19-2012, 10:10 PM
Well, shoot, I suppose by the time we are ready to make a move Casilla will have some sort of injury requiring attention. Doesn't it seem every time he starts playing well, the injury bug hits? If that's the case, I think we'll see Dozier. If not, then it will probably be a 3rd catcher, it will probably be Butera, isn't he the only one on the 40 man? I personally would rather see one of the other 2, fairly ugly, choices just because I don't think calling one of those guys up and then exposing him to waivers if you want to send him back down is that big of a deal. But the Twins management is typically more attached to guys they signed than I am and tend to protect them, so...Butera. UGGH! And if so, you just know he'll be catching Pavano every 5th day, despite the #s saying Pavano pitches better with Joe catching him.

whydidnt
04-19-2012, 10:25 PM
Actually, Francona quit and their GM took a better job.
I just couldn't let this go, simply because I got a great chuckle out of it (at least in my little mind). Francona quit, much the same way Richard Nixon quit. You can chose to believe whatever spin you want, but if the Sox wanted him to stay they'd have picked up his option and he'd still be there.

gunnarthor
04-19-2012, 10:43 PM
I just couldn't let this go, simply because I got a great chuckle out of it (at least in my little mind). Francona quit, much the same way Richard Nixon quit. You can chose to believe whatever spin you want, but if the Sox wanted him to stay they'd have picked up his option and he'd still be there.

True, but the perception that the Sox cleaned house after expectations weren't met isn't real either.

whydidnt
04-19-2012, 11:13 PM
True, but the perception that the Sox cleaned house after expectations weren't met isn't real either.
Well, I'm going to disagree, they replaced all of the field staff except the hitting coach and their GM/President, what else could they have done to clean house, hire Merry Maids? There are more subtle ways of cleaning house than flat out firing people. If you have someone like Epstein you want to move on, you simply take away his power, knowing he has options and won't stand for it. Epstein grew up a Red Sox fan, always dreamed of working for the team and made it to the pinnacle of the organization, do you really think he went to the owners on 10/1 and said I'd really like to look for a new, better, job?

Riverbrian
04-19-2012, 11:15 PM
Yankee Stadium Pre-Game Batting Practice outside the Cage. Twins GM Terry Ryan enters the field walking toward the Cage. Ron Gardenhire Twins Manager is in the Dugout.

Ron: (shouting) Terry!!! Ry-Guy!!!

Terry Ryan Keeps on Walking to the cage. Danny Velencia is taking his 2nd turn in the BP Rotation. Gardenhire jumps onto the field and sprints toward Terry.

Terry: Danny another pitch is coming... Stay focused Danny... It's a mental game.

Danny Turns to look at Terry... The Ball strikes him in the Shoulder.

Ron: Ry-Guy... We gotta Talk...

Terry: I know what you are going to say. You want a third catcher

Ron: Must you always assume what I'm going to say before I say it. I've been doing this awhile Terry... You could treat me with a little respect.

Terry: I'm sorry Ron... I jumped the gun there. I just came out to watch some BP. The Last session... Velencia didn't swing at a single pitch... He seemed to be studying his shoes or laces or something. Thought I'd come down and see what he's distracted with.

Velencia looks down at his shoes again... Ball hits him in the head.

Terry: Danny... Take a look at Stelly on the mound behind the L screen... He's throwing the ball to you... so you can hit... For practice.

Ron: Stelly... Throw Strikes... I can't have my bullpen coach smoking my players in BP.

Terry: Gardy... Danny isn't even watching the pitch. He's looking at his shoes.

Ron: Never mind Danny... This is how he preps... Can You and I talk...

Terry: Sure Ron... What is it.

Ron: I need a 3rd Catcher...

Shane Wahl
04-19-2012, 11:41 PM
Clearly with the likes of Francisco Liriano and Anthony Swarzak, this team might need 13 pitchers. Swarzak will prove his true colors this year. He just isn't good. I am sick of seeing him starting. Ever. Scott Diamond and Jeff Manship are better options.

I really don't think it will be Butera. I don't think they have figured out what they are going to do yet. I think everyone from Nishioka to Carson could be options.

mikeee
04-20-2012, 08:05 AM
Gardy is now saying he will probably have three catchers next week? I do not get it. They have these airplane thingys.....I do not get it.

:(

we are doomed.

mikeee
04-20-2012, 08:06 AM
I think that 40th man spot is ALL Brian Dozier's for the taking...

IF it was May 19th and not April 19th I'd vote Dozier.....nicknamed "Bull".

You should be the Twins manager!

stringer bell
04-20-2012, 08:18 AM
Swarzak is a 5th starter/long reliever. Expecting him to be good every start is folly. It bugs me that the Twins scored early and scored enough runs to win and still lost last night, but expecting Twins starters to be stellar every outing is pollyannaish. Gray and Burnett performed well enough to make the "who gets demoted?" question harder, not easier. It also seems to me that Gray's long outing will necessitate 13 pitchers for the Tampa Bay series unless the FO decides to DFA Gray.

SweetOne69
04-20-2012, 09:25 AM
@stringer bell, they are going to carry 13 pitchers until they no for sure if Blackburn can take his start on Tuesday. That will be determined by his BP sessions today and Sunday.

If he can go Swarzak will move back to the BP and another pitcher will be optioned or DFA'ed.

If he can't go, he'll be DL'ed retroactive to 4/14 which means he can be activated on 4/30.