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View Full Version : Article: Message to Twins: Accountability Means Change



Nick Nelson
10-03-2013, 01:35 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2386-Message-to-Twins-Accountability-Means-Change

JB_Iowa
10-03-2013, 01:48 PM
While I agree with the need for accountability, I still question whether an organization can be "flexible and receptive to change" if they are never bringing in new voices to champion those changes. It wasn't the failure to change managers that was the big problem, it was the fact the failure was representative of the insular old boys club that exists within this organization. St. Peter made the comment that they had Gardenhire's back. There should be loyalty in an organization but loyalty can't replace accountability.

On another front, did you hear the conference call? Howard Sinker had a tweet that related to leadership in the clubhouse with an indication that Gardenhire didn't think it was there. Can you expand upon that portion of the call? (Sorry if I misremembered or misinterpreted the tweet).

archie
10-03-2013, 02:06 PM
JB nails it. Sure, the Twins don't need to remove anybody. They just need the same people who have been in charge forever to suddenly change their baseball philosophies. Not gonna happen. Bring in somebody from the outside.

Teflon
10-03-2013, 02:06 PM
Credit the Twins for realizing that changing the manager now would be about as effective as changing drivers in a race where the other entrants have Corvettes and you have a tiny clown car with a flat tire.

howieramone
10-03-2013, 02:14 PM
I think you're confusing accountability with making a public confession. Ryan is cool, calm, and calculated. He understands the Twins are not currently viewed in a favorable light, but he hasn't lost any confidence that the organization has what it takes to right the ship. Anyone who expects any signs of panic from One Twins Way is in for a long wait.

He was just quoted as saying Sano and Buxton were not untouchable and the Pohlads have assured us money is no problem. Ryan has been back all of 23 months, IMO anyone who thinks this franchise is going to fall into the black abyss is overreacting, as is their privilege. The Twins are not the first sports franchise that needed to step back and rebuild.

mike wants wins
10-03-2013, 02:17 PM
How many years of losing 95 plus games is the "black abyss"?

How is signing one legit FA panicking?

Nick Nelson
10-03-2013, 02:30 PM
Ryan has been back all of 23 months, IMO anyone who thinks this franchise is going to fall into the black abyss is overreacting, as is their privilege.
"Fall into"?

JB_Iowa
10-03-2013, 02:36 PM
I didn't say this in my first comment but I do thank you, Nick, for the article and the message it expresses.

Hosken Bombo Disco
10-03-2013, 02:59 PM
I think you're confusing accountability with making a public confession. Ryan is cool, calm, and calculated. He understands the Twins are not currently viewed in a favorable light, but he hasn't lost any confidence that the organization has what it takes to right the ship. Anyone who expects any signs of panic from One Twins Way is in for a long wait.

He was just quoted as saying Sano and Buxton were not untouchable...

These are the next two individuals we've been told the Twins will build the future around -- yes? no?

nicksaviking
10-03-2013, 03:11 PM
There is nothing to disagree with Nick's post though the first half doesn't seem to match the second. You're right, there is no need for firings...if they are willing to change their flaws and outdated ideas. But the second half of the article methodically lists the many examples where, specifically Ryan, refuse to change or take responsibility. Isn't his unwillingness to adapt and rectify reason enough to think about a change?

howieramone
10-03-2013, 03:29 PM
These are the next two individuals we've been told the Twins will build the future around -- yes? no? If Detroit offers Cabrera and Scherzer for Sano, I'm convinced he would consider it. We may have to include Duensing.:)

Brandon
10-03-2013, 03:33 PM
The offense and 3 starters failed the club this season. If we get 3 average to above average starting pitchers and Willingham and Doumit returns to form and Hicks and Arcia continue to develop. we can be a decent team with very few shortcommings next season.

Nick Nelson
10-03-2013, 03:42 PM
There is nothing to disagree with Nick's post though the first half doesn't seem to match the second. You're right, there is no need for firings...if they are willing to change their flaws and outdated ideas. But the second half of the article methodically lists the many examples where, specifically Ryan, refuse to change or take responsibility. Isn't his unwillingness to adapt and rectify reason enough to think about a change?

I do think there are examples where the organization has shown some willingness to change. They have at least branched into statistical analysis in the front office and seem to be empowering that department more over time. We've definitely seen Ryan start to target strikeout pitchers more over the last year, at least in the minors. And Gardenhire has backed off some of his strongly held tendencies (Mauer batting 2nd much of the year being a good example). But they do need to take it further in many respects.

MileHighTwinsFan
10-03-2013, 03:50 PM
[QUOTE=howieramone;170540]I think you're confusing accountability with making a public confession.

Agree. Ryan is not accountable to Mackey and has no obligation to respond to his editorial publicly or otherwise. Ryan is accountable to the Pohlads and the Pohlads to the bottom line and ultimately the fans. If the Pohlads want things done differently - I am sure they will let TR know. If TR wants to keep his job, he will listen to his bosses -If not, then he will need to look elsewhere.

Hosken Bombo Disco
10-03-2013, 03:54 PM
If Detroit offers Cabrera and Scherzer for Sano, I'm convinced he would consider it. We may have to include Duensing.:)
Interesting thought, Dave. I will call you back. :)

ThePuck
10-03-2013, 04:09 PM
The offense and 3 starters failed the club this season. If we get 3 average to above average starting pitchers and Willingham and Doumit returns to form and Hicks and Arcia continue to develop. we can be a decent team with very few shortcommings next season.

What form do you believe 35 year old Willingham should return to? The career year he had for us at age 33?

Doumit's OPS the last 5 years have been .714, .738, .830 (only half a season), .781 and .710. What do you think is reasonable to expect from him?

Where are these three average to above average starting pitchers going to come from? We needed them last year too. We were told last offseason the rotation would be greatly improved. This isn't a new need.

Hicks and Arcia...yes...we need them to develop...for long term.

drivlikejehu
10-03-2013, 04:19 PM
He was just quoted as saying ... the Pohlads have assured us money is no problem.

Here's a question - has there ever been a GM in the history of any professional sport who spent tens of millions less than his budget, for multiple years?

The only rational explanation is that Pohlad ordered the budget cut until the Twins show signs of re-emergence. Ryan is covering for his boss by making vague statements like the one noted above. Understandable, but still dishonest.

And regardless of the fact Ryan has only been back in the GM chair for 2 years or whatever it is, bad decisions are bad decisions. By his own admission he has failed to accurately evaluate the team. Problem areas he himself identified (e.g., medical staff) have not been addressed effectively. He foolishly held onto Willingham rather than trading him when his value was at its peak. The list just goes on and on. Someone with character would at least acknowledge, on some level, the problems in the organization.

snepp
10-03-2013, 04:27 PM
If Detroit offers Cabrera and Scherzer for Sano, I'm convinced he would consider it. We may have to include Duensing.:)


The Duensing Rule: Confirmed

Seth Stohs
10-03-2013, 04:27 PM
I think you're confusing accountability with making a public confession. Ryan is cool, calm, and calculated. He understands the Twins are not currently viewed in a favorable light, but he hasn't lost any confidence that the organization has what it takes to right the ship. Anyone who expects any signs of panic from One Twins Way is in for a long wait.

Well put... he definitely is accountable and he's not taking it lightly. I don't care what he or others say publically. Let's see what happens. As I've said before. When he came back, he told me that he would not take shortcuts. I believe in that philosophy. I know many don't, but I definitely don't want panic and overreaction either.

mike wants wins
10-03-2013, 04:31 PM
How us signing one legit FA a short cut?

Badsmerf
10-03-2013, 04:45 PM
I don't think he is accountable Seth. He refuses to acknowledge the terrible job he did assembling this team. Anytime he says otherwise I feel its just lip service. If he was under budget from the bosses, why cover that up? That is the only logical explanation.

I don't doubt his long-term plan to get talent into the organization, I do doubt his short-term ability. He can't just keep telling fans to wait for Buxton and Sano.

ThePuck
10-03-2013, 04:54 PM
He can't just keep telling fans to wait for Buxton and Sano.

Sure he can...we can clearly see that people buy into that...just wait for the all the prospects we know for sure will be very good...going to be competitive when they all show up.

He can also say both of them are available in a trade...some will buy into that too, because he said it.

There are people who just complete faith in him and will buy into anything he says and does. As fans, that's certainly their right to do so.

Rosterman
10-03-2013, 04:56 PM
To paraphrase:

"We will now have money to retain our free agents."

"We want to be competitive in the division."

"We want to reach the postseason."

A beautiful ballpark, different (far from great) foods. Wait until the numbers come in on the new KTWIN radio broadcasts (where are the pre-game shows and baseball talk I so miss mostly from WCCO days and aprtly from KSTP).

What happens when advertisers balk at...advertising.

I already have a Mauer jersey. Who else do I want to put on my back?

Oh, wait...the All-Star Game is coming to town -- guess I'll watch it on television if I can get home because of the traffic tieups in downtown Minneapolis those days.

Did anyone make any mistake? Wait, didn't someone say "I didn't spend -- or was it "he" - all the money I was given to spend on product last year: which may be fine because so much of the priduct did s-u-c-k. But....accountability.

Must be a long range plan I'm not seeing.

USAFChief
10-03-2013, 04:59 PM
I may be a small minority of one, but I'd welcome sensing some panic from an organization that has lost 290 games in 3 yrs and as of today looks no better for the at least the near future. "It'll get better if we just wait it out" has never been a good organizational strategy in my experience, nor do I consider that "accountability."

snepp
10-03-2013, 05:20 PM
I don't know about panic, but how about the sense that there's just the tiniest bit of urgency to crawl out of that abomination they've dug themselves into?

Even a little bit? The "business as usual" vibe I get makes my stomach turn.

Thrylos
10-03-2013, 05:42 PM
Well put... he definitely is accountable and he's not taking it lightly. I don't care what he or others say publically. Let's see what happens.

We did see Part I of what happens: The people responsible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_assignment_matrix#Key_responsibilit y_roles)for 99+96+96 were rewarded with 2 year contracts. Of course Ryan is accountable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_assignment_matrix#Key_responsibilit y_roles)"only" for the 96+96, but that should have been enough for an owner who cared to hold him accountable.

Part II will happen next week in Fort Myers, but I really do not expect much other than token changes like bringing in a seventh coach and maybe adding another guy here or there in the Front Office.


As I've said before. When he came back, he told me that he would not take shortcuts. I believe in that philosophy. I know many don't, but I definitely don't want panic and overreaction either.

In the apathy (0) to panic and over-reaction (100) scale, retaining the GM, Manager and all of the coaches of the 99+96+96 debacle is a 2. Firing the GM and/or the Manager and his coaches would have been more like a 50. Like it or not, it is the norm in any business (including baseball.)

I would love to see in the Pohlad portfolio of businesses, whether in any single one other than the Twins, the C-suite would be retained after 3 seasons of ranking in the bottom 5% among competitors in the marketplace.

That simple. If you want to win, you have to deem losing unacceptable. If losing is acceptable...

stringer bell
10-03-2013, 05:43 PM
Good article, Nick. I agree with much you wrote, but have less patience. I think some of the talk needs to be backed up by a changed approach and new personnel. While I think Gardy is a good baseball guy and a good manager, his extension also symbolizes more of the same from a franchise that is a good bet to lose 90+ games for the fourth straight season. Ryan is doig a lot of talking and his rhetoric suggests to me that he hasn't bought in to the realities of this decade--that the Twins are a mid-market franchise, that the team needs to augment their talent by being a player in the free-agent market and that they need pitchers in the rotation that can make hitters swing and miss.

notoriousgod71
10-03-2013, 05:50 PM
When Frank Cashen took over as GM of the Mets he signed George Foster to a big contract. He admitted that he knew Foster wouldn't make the Mets competitive but he wanted to send a message to the fans and players that they were trying to improve.

One or two moves a season and suddenly you have the '86 Mets. By '86 Foster was terrible and they got rid of him mid-season, but the message had been sent that losing wasn't acceptable.

TheLeviathan
10-03-2013, 06:06 PM
Agree. Ryan is not accountable to Mackey and has no obligation to respond to his editorial publicly or otherwise. Ryan is accountable to the Pohlads and the Pohlads to the bottom line and ultimately the fans. If the Pohlads want things done differently - I am sure they will let TR know. If TR wants to keep his job, he will listen to his bosses -If not, then he will need to look elsewhere.

GMs are most certainly accountable to the public. If they weren't, they wouldn't hold press conferences. Like it or not, but part of Ryan's job is to engage the public in many different ways, including accountability.

This entire premise flies in the face of radio shows, press conferences, interviews, etc.

TheLeviathan
10-03-2013, 06:07 PM
I don't know about panic, but how about the sense that there's just the tiniest bit of urgency to crawl out of that abomination they've dug themselves into?

Even a little bit? The "business as usual" vibe I get makes my stomach turn.

Can I go one step further? How about a little less arrogance that you've got things under control when the ship has pretty much sank for three years? Yeah, you might think you can bring it up off the ocean floor, but quit telling us what an awesome captain you are.

Marta Shearing
10-03-2013, 06:07 PM
When Frank Cashen took over as GM of
the Mets he signed George Foster to a big contract. He admitted that he knew Foster wouldn't make the Mets competitive but he wanted to send a message to the fans and players that they were trying to improve.

One or two moves a season and suddenly you have the '86 Mets. By '86 Foster was terrible and they got rid of him mid-season, but the message had been sent that losing wasn't acceptable.
Excellent point

howieramone
10-03-2013, 06:29 PM
Can I go one step further? How about a little less arrogance that you've got things under control when the ship has pretty much sank for three years? Yeah, you might think you can bring it up off the ocean floor, but quit telling us what an awesome captain you are. I don't recall Ryan being called arrogant before, nor have I ever heard or read anything that even resembles him telling us what a awesome captain he is, even once.

notoriousgod71
10-03-2013, 06:58 PM
I don't recall Ryan being called arrogant before, nor have I ever heard or read anything that even resembles him telling us what a awesome captain he is, even once.

He may not have said those words but I agree, that's how he and the entire Twins organization has come off the last six years.

drivlikejehu
10-03-2013, 07:18 PM
I don't recall Ryan being called arrogant before, nor have I ever heard or read anything that even resembles him telling us what a awesome captain he is, even once.

Actually, he's done pretty much exactly that, and as recently as this week!

In another thread he was quoted talking about how, for a long time, other organizations looked to the Twins as a model, with the obvious implication being that the 'Twins Way' is the right way.

And now he arrogantly clings to the same approach even though everyone else has moved on. His unmistakable view is that, indeed he is an awesome captain, and when his ships sink its due to circumstances outside of his control.

Kwak
10-03-2013, 07:23 PM
It comes down to the definition of success. Is it? A) be the Cubs; millions of people love us win or lose so pump up the volume of good cheer, happy talk, and Minnesota Nice and the owners will rake in the cash B) be like the Vikings; lots of good cheer, banter, countless Central Division Champion banners flying--waiting for the inevitable butt-kicking in the post-season followed by tears in the beer all while the owners rake in the cash; C) be like Atlanta--lengthy periods of success (including championship) followed by short periods of stink before resuming long-term success--and apparently their owner also rakes in lots of cash too; D) be like Arizona, keep a low payroll and try to build for one super-year in ten. Oh, and the owner rakes in the cash. Which model?

Sconnie
10-03-2013, 07:27 PM
What form do you believe 35 year old Willingham should return to? The career year he had for us at age 33?

Doumit's OPS the last 5 years have been .714, .738, .830 (only half a season), .781 and .710. What do you think is reasonable to expect from him?

Where are these three average to above average starting pitchers going to come from? We needed them last year too. We were told last offseason the rotation would be greatly improved. This isn't a new need.

Hicks and Arcia...yes...we need them to develop...for long term. I have been until very recently on the "fire Gardy" bandwagon until recently. While I have gotten off that wagon, I still feel like without change, the Twins will continue to be one of the worst teams in baseball.

like you say, we needed 3 high end pitchers last year, and all we got was corriea and pelfrey. We can hope for improvement from underperforming players, but I don't think there were any underperformers on this club, the vets played exactly like you would expect, and the rookies need to develop but that takes time. Again, if you don't change, how can you expect different results?

Is TR beholden to Mackey? I would argue that if the team was performing in the top half of the league, no. Mackey is just a journalist. The way this team has performed puts TR under the microscope, and everyone gets a peak.

Sconnie
10-03-2013, 07:33 PM
Can I go one step further? How about a little less arrogance that you've got things under control when the ship has pretty much sank for three years? Yeah, you might think you can bring it up off the ocean floor, but quit telling us what an awesome captain you are.
The Titanic has already sailed.

Otwins
10-03-2013, 09:35 PM
One excellent place to make a change without firing someone is the 7th coach they are talking about. Why not add someone from outside the organization? What do we have to lose other than another 96 games

Marta Shearing
10-03-2013, 10:28 PM
I'm not a Phil Mackey fan, but Ryan's comment on him was a pot shot. Completely uncalled for. Unprofessional. It was a legitimate question. Answer it.

Bark's Lounge
10-03-2013, 10:31 PM
One excellent place to make a change without firing someone is the 7th coach they are talking about. Why not add someone from outside the organization? What do we have to lose other than another 96 games

My guess is the Twins Hire Glynn or Molitor to coach 3B (most likely Glynn) and reassign Vavra to Assistant Hitting Coach.

In truth, I do not think this will happen - but wouldn't that be a mind (bleep) if it did.

Personally, I am not super stoked about the decisions the Twins have made very early into this offseason and after the crap that's been served to us fans the last few years - My motto is "Seeing is Believing". "Blind Faith" is an obsolete term.

I guess we'll see what happens... Fasten your seat belts folks.

Riverbrian
10-03-2013, 10:56 PM
I don't think he is accountable Seth. He refuses to acknowledge the terrible job he did assembling this team. Anytime he says otherwise I feel its just lip service. If he was under budget from the bosses, why cover that up? That is the only logical explanation.

I don't doubt his long-term plan to get talent into the organization, I do doubt his short-term ability. He can't just keep telling fans to wait for Buxton and Sano.

To be fair... I can't recall Terry Ryan ever saying "Wait for Buxton and Sano".

I can recall Terry Ryan acknowledging that the responsibility for the roster is on him... And he has taken that responsibility every time.

beckmt
10-03-2013, 11:12 PM
I think a little of this is the wait and see. All of us want the Twins to be better, but it is easy to spend the owners money from this vantage point. Pitching will be hard to get in the offseason, but it is possible. And I will be disappointed if we do not sign at least 1 decent (#1 or #2) type starting pitcher.

Shane Wahl
10-03-2013, 11:57 PM
291 losses in three seasons is not enough of an indictment of Gardenhire and Ryan? These are the two to lead the Twins forward? This just seems so bizarre to make this claim.

Shane Wahl
10-04-2013, 12:02 AM
We all know, right, that "change" is not going to occur. I mean that is clear. The status quo is acceptable.

Nick Nelson
10-04-2013, 12:14 AM
Well put... he definitely is accountable and he's not taking it lightly. I don't care what he or others say publically. Let's see what happens. As I've said before. When he came back, he told me that he would not take shortcuts. I believe in that philosophy. I know many don't, but I definitely don't want panic and overreaction either.
What exactly is "taking shortcuts"? Does that mean actually attempting to be competitive before your prized prospects arrive? Because personally I don't see anything wrong with it. No one is suggesting anything that endangers the future outlook.

Shane Wahl
10-04-2013, 12:22 AM
What is the definition of a shortcut? I don't even know how to begin to understand that in this context.

Highabove
10-04-2013, 04:28 AM
[QUOTE=TheLeviathan;170599]Can I go one step further? How about a little less arrogance that you've got things under control when the ship has pretty much sank for three years? Yeah, you might think you can bring it up off the ocean floor, but quit telling us what an awesome captain you are.[/QUOTE
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQihjJSbFoCsYzGDgu9LtH3OPmUueFkI AnwlkWvPnYpQjrSMZX8XA https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiWL2MNKNiKwjRJONUTnQ-7TxHEZbAFEfA6H1V-YP4dcsvFYHXfg

The Wise One
10-04-2013, 05:56 AM
Fascinating thread. There are those that dislike Ryan. Your choice. One person calls him arrogant, multiple chime in the same. Arrogant because he once said Twins way. Now they are losing so he is arrogant. Feel free to correct me but WTF is wrong in baseball with stressing fundamental error free baseball. Twins way in building under Ryan part 1, draft well, trade pieces under the sell high, buy low theory. Have the Twins strayed from the Twins Way? In the office and in the field about like a TD thread does from the OP. That does not make them arrogant.

The Wise One
10-04-2013, 06:04 AM
What exactly is "taking shortcuts"? Does that mean actually attempting to be competitive before your prized prospects arrive? Because personally I don't see anything wrong with it. No one is suggesting anything that endangers the future outlook.

Giving players Gil Meche contracts, buying high with non surplus prospects on trades to get better now. That would be my idea of what trying to take a shortcut is. It leaves you with something you can't get rid of and thin on talent.

TheLeviathan
10-04-2013, 06:30 AM
The only person I've heard suggest a shortcut was Ryan when he implied even Sano or Buxton could be available in a trade.

mike wants wins
10-04-2013, 07:54 AM
To be fair... I can't recall Terry Ryan ever saying "Wait for Buxton and Sano".

I can recall Terry Ryan acknowledging that the responsibility for the roster is on him... And he has taken that responsibility every time.


But if he keeps his job, keeps doing what he has been doing, and nothing changes, how is that any different than me saying I take responsibility? What do those words mean, if there is no change?

notoriousgod71
10-04-2013, 09:10 AM
Dusty Baker reportedly out as Reds manager despite making the playoffs the last two seasons. He didn't win a game. I'd love for him to come over here and "ruin" some of our arms so I never have to see Diamond, Correia, Pelfrey, Hendricks, Devries again.

ThePuck
10-04-2013, 09:27 AM
To be fair... I can't recall Terry Ryan ever saying "Wait for Buxton and Sano".

I can recall Terry Ryan acknowledging that the responsibility for the roster is on him... And he has taken that responsibility every time.

He hasn't mentioned them by name, but he has pointed to the farm system and said help is on the way. On top of being unwilling to get quality FAs, being unwilling to trade quality prospects for proven MLB talent and the lack of quality players on the MLB roster to trade for quality MLB talent/quality prospects, it boils down his words, mixed with his action/inaction, to saying...wait for the prospects.

Nick Nelson
10-04-2013, 09:45 AM
Giving players Gil Meche contracts, buying high with non surplus prospects on trades to get better now. That would be my idea of what trying to take a shortcut is. It leaves you with something you can't get rid of and thin on talent.

I don't see how signing a player to a Gil Meche type contract would be so misguided. The Royals signed a hard-throwing 28-year-old pitcher with some potential to a four-year deal and for the first 2.5 seasons it worked out brilliantly. They couldn't have anticipated that injuries would ruin his career at age 30. I'd love to sign an under-30 pitcher with upside to a multi-year deal and don't see how that would equate to a "shortcut." And if you think that committing $10-15M to a pitcher 3-4 years down the line is going to cripple the Twins financially, then you don't have a very good understanding of this team's fiscal outlook.

As for trading non-surplus prospects in trades to get better now... as Lev said, I haven't seen anyone suggest that possibility other than TR himself.

Steve Lein
10-04-2013, 09:52 AM
Yup, pretty much agree with everything said here, Nick. -> https://twitter.com/HangingSL/status/385064448957743104

Shane Wahl
10-04-2013, 10:53 AM
If the "field manager" isn't really impactful, why don't the Twins save money and sign some cheap dude to run the team? Aaron Gleeman's a cheap dude, right? . . . . . .

Boom Boom
10-04-2013, 10:54 AM
If the Twins are expecting to see Sano and maybe Buxton some time in 2014, how is acquiring good free agents in the meantime taking a shortcut? And what about the future HOF player whose prime years are wasting away while TR is kicking the can down the road?

Badsmerf
10-04-2013, 11:13 AM
Fascinating thread. There are those that dislike Ryan. Your choice. One person calls him arrogant, multiple chime in the same. Arrogant because he once said Twins way. Now they are losing so he is arrogant. Feel free to correct me but WTF is wrong in baseball with stressing fundamental error free baseball. Twins way in building under Ryan part 1, draft well, trade pieces under the sell high, buy low theory. Have the Twins strayed from the Twins Way? In the office and in the field about like a TD thread does from the OP. That does not make them arrogant.
1. Terry Ryan is arrogant because he refuses to acknowledge that the "Twins Way" doesn't work. He refuses to make any changes to the manager and a pitching coach that has tanked this team. They scuff at any comment regarding statistical analysis saying they got a guy. If I need to keep expanding, you haven't been paying attention to him in the last few months.

2. Stressing fundamentals and error free baseball is what every organization does. Some, are just better at it than others. Sometimes you just don't have the talent to follow through.

3. The Twins haven't traded pieces at high value ever. They routinely have made bad trades or held on too long. Span and Revere were good trades, but Santana, Hardy, Cuddy, Kubel, even Willingham and Doumit are missed opportunities.

4. The product of 3 horrible seasons is on Terry Ryan. I don't see how he is getting a pass from some people.

mike wants wins
10-04-2013, 11:15 AM
btw, how is a "shortcut" evil/bad/wrong, exactly?

A shortcut gets you to your destination faster.......how is that bad? Still waiting for someone to explain how signing a legit FA this year is a bad idea......

Alex
10-04-2013, 11:17 AM
I'd add that "not taking shortcuts" is pretty darn arrogant just by itself as if there is an accepted "right" way to do things and another "easier" way to get better faster that is somehow less ethical or worse.

ashburyjohn
10-04-2013, 11:31 AM
Dusty Baker reportedly out as Reds manager despite making the playoffs the last two seasons. He didn't win a game. I'd love for him to come over here and "ruin" some of our arms so I never have to see Diamond, Correia, Pelfrey, Hendricks, Devries again.

Baker managing the Twins is an interesting thought. I'll start a separate thread about that.

ashburyjohn
10-04-2013, 11:32 AM
A shortcut gets you to your destination faster.......how is that bad?

Come visit me out here in the mountain West. I'll show you some shortcuts that do not get you to your destination faster. :)

twinsnorth49
10-04-2013, 12:13 PM
I'd call being dismissive and borderline condescending towards thoughtful, legitimate questions of your organization arrogant, it's as if TR is somehow above reproach.

We all deserve more than flippant answers from the man most responsible for expecting us to keep supporting this mess. The "I'm committed to righting this ship" rhetoric is getting a bit old, especially after 291 losses the past 3 years, details TR, some details please?

ThePuck
10-04-2013, 12:18 PM
I'd call being dismissive and borderline condescending towards thoughtful, legitimate questions of your organization arrogant, it's as if TR is somehow above reproach.

We all deserve more than flippant answers from the man most responsible for expecting us to keep supporting this mess. The "I'm committed to righting this ship" rhetoric is getting a bit old, especially after 291 losses the past 3 years, details TR, some details please?

It's the same way Gardy is with the media on those few occasions when a reporter has the stones to question his in-game strategy...

Zarathustra
10-04-2013, 12:45 PM
This thread is about accountability. There are phases being thrown around, as has been the norm these last three painful seasons, such as 'steady hand', 'short-cut', 'panic', et al, and while they certainly relate directly to the debate about how best to remedy the downward spiral on the field, they don't necessarily address a key aspect of accountability away from it.

What has challenged the endurance of my fandom most during this stretch (and I was a 162+ game watcher/listener consistently from '02 - '10, good and bad) relates to an accountability not being addressed here directly. It seems the collective memory has grown very short when it comes to our favorite team's new home.

This team was right there in '06, right on the cusp of a real run in the playoffs after a series of progressing seasons, more or less. What we were told was that, until the tax payers of MN approved a stadium, the team was doomed to failure. In other words the OWNERSHIP wasn't in a position to succeed without a stadium. This wasn't implicit - these were the drums beat time and time again. BUILD IT AND THE TWINS WILL COMPETE!

So, let's recap what happened:

Target Field (which I love, BTW) Cost: $522M; Ownership Share = $125M; MN Share = $397M

Player Payroll 2006: $63.3M...2010: $97.6M 2011: $113.2M 2012: $100.4M 2013: $82M (Prospectus)

Revenue 2006: $114M...2010: $162M 2011: $213M (Forbes)

Franchise Value 2006: $216M 2011: $490M (Forbes)

As far as I'm concerned, the ownership made a public contract when they entered into the stadium agreement with the taxpayers of Minnesota. They explicitly stated they would increase payroll (which they did, albeit at an alarmingly decreasing rate) and they expressed repeatedly that the stadium would give them the flexibility to push the franchise forward. Where is the evidence? They were already winning division titles, batting titles and Cy Youngs before Target Field. They breached the contract and need to be held accountable.

How do we hold those off the field accountable for what HASN'T happened on the field?

notoriousgod71
10-04-2013, 01:48 PM
Baker managing the Twins is an interesting thought. I'll start a separate thread about that.

Just to be clear I do not want this to happen. I think he is pretty similar to Gardy in that he loves his crappy veterans, seems to have a "set" lineup by position (CF leadoff, MI bat second), and his postseason "success" is nearly as awful as Gardy. Also I am pretty sure I would have called for his firing the moment he announced Salomon Torres was starting Game 162.

twinsnorth49
10-04-2013, 01:53 PM
This thread is about accountability. There are phases being thrown around, as has been the norm these last three painful seasons, such as 'steady hand', 'short-cut', 'panic', et al, and while they certainly relate directly to the debate about how best to remedy the downward spiral on the field, they don't necessarily address a key aspect of accountability away from it.

What has challenged the endurance of my fandom most during this stretch (and I was a 162+ game watcher/listener consistently from '02 - '10, good and bad) relates to an accountability not being addressed here directly. It seems the collective memory has grown very short when it comes to our favorite team's new home.

This team was right there in '06, right on the cusp of a real run in the playoffs after a series of progressing seasons, more or less. What we were told was that, until the tax payers of MN approved a stadium, the team was doomed to failure. In other words the OWNERSHIP wasn't in a position to succeed without a stadium. This wasn't implicit - these were the drums beat time and time again. BUILD IT AND THE TWINS WILL COMPETE!

So, let's recap what happened:

Target Field (which I love, BTW) Cost: $522M; Ownership Share = $125M; MN Share = $397M

Player Payroll 2006: $63.3M...2010: $97.6M 2011: $113.2M 2012: $100.4M 2013: $82M (Prospectus)

Revenue 2006: $114M...2010: $162M 2011: $213M (Forbes)

Franchise Value 2006: $216M 2011: $490M (Forbes)

As far as I'm concerned, the ownership made a public contract when they entered into the stadium agreement with the taxpayers of Minnesota. They explicitly stated they would increase payroll (which they did, albeit at an alarmingly decreasing rate) and they expressed repeatedly that the stadium would give them the flexibility to push the franchise forward. Where is the evidence? They were already winning division titles, batting titles and Cy Youngs before Target Field. They breached the contract and need to be held accountable.

How do we hold those off the field accountable for what HASN'T happened on the field?

What a great first post, welcome.

TheLeviathan
10-04-2013, 02:02 PM
What a great first post, welcome.

Almost as awesome as the name.

drivlikejehu
10-04-2013, 02:18 PM
His points are undeniable, as is the fact that, legally, what the Twins are doing constitutes fraud (receiving goods in exchange for false promises).

Nick Nelson
10-04-2013, 02:31 PM
OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

twinsnorth49
10-04-2013, 02:39 PM
Almost as awesome as the name.

He does speak the truth...

Fatt Crapps
10-04-2013, 02:39 PM
Still waiting for someone to explain how signing a legit FA this year is a bad idea......


Well, signing Ellsbury would certainly be a bad idea.

ThePuck
10-04-2013, 02:44 PM
OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

Team didn't have much of a choice but to sign him...not really...not with the story they sold to the public to get the new ballpark. Not sign the local boy done great? No way that signing doesn't happen. It was a good business decision for many reasons...between the PR, the on-field production, ticket sales (and everything that comes with it), etc...

On top of that, it wasn't Ryan who signed him. Ryan told us the Willingham signing was a big money signing...doing the Mauer contract might have killed him...or given him a better perspective on what quality FA (or pending FA) players truly cost.

mike wants wins
10-04-2013, 02:46 PM
the issue isn't the total payroll.....but that only $49MM was spent on 24+ players....

Zarathustra
10-04-2013, 03:30 PM
The original post was already too long, so I stopped short on a few things. Now that it has some daylight in between posts, I hope you'll humor my adding a bit more:

1) I mentioned watching/listening to 162+ games each season during the 02-10 run. I'm not fair weather. Heading into the 2010 playoffs (homefield against the Yanks remember?), I made a commitment that if the Twins didn't make it past the first round THIS time, I would significantly reduce my investment in this team until they gave me reason to do otherwise. My participation has declined, in kind, since.

And why shouldn't it for all of us? I support the institution, win or lose, not the ownership and the flagging performance of the product they disingenuously trot out.

2) The argument of the breached public contract holds outside of the vacuum of team performance. In other words, if the economic return to the tax payers could be demonstrated to be a net profit on their stadium investment (an impossible to prove metric either way), it doesn't matter. If the Pohlads had ended up losing money after the stadium was built (a distinct impossibility), it doesn't matter. The entire exercise of stadium building was predicated on the idea that the it would bring added revenue, spending, and results - a change on the field come October from what we had been experiencing.

Have we all forgotten this? That was the mantra when Torii walked, when Santana leaving was a foregone conclusion, and when all the inside and outside free agents came and went unsigned since. Money doesn't buy championships, but better (read: often costlier) players could have benefited this team throughout.

3) When money was spent ('10 and '11), it wasn't spent wisely. Accountability is, again, the thread. Bill Smith is out, but we've been told that TR was instrumental in many moves/non-moves while not GM. Also, Gardy had no influence on the composition of these teams? The reason these non-diamond-nine individuals are also well compensated is because they should have high standards of performance. How have they performed relative to the public contract?

Thanks for hearing me out. From a ND native, MN resident through those fat years, now a DC resident, I can't wait for things to turn around for our team. But to do so will take some measure of real accountability. Seriously, Go Twins.

nicksaviking
10-04-2013, 03:57 PM
This thread is about accountability. There are phases being thrown around, as has been the norm these last three painful seasons, such as 'steady hand', 'short-cut', 'panic', et al, and while they certainly relate directly to the debate about how best to remedy the downward spiral on the field, they don't necessarily address a key aspect of accountability away from it.



Almost as awesome as the name.




By the way, I think I should change my avatar. Having it makes me more and more surly.

Also, for the record, I am not a Big Ten college professor. I did teach at Purdue as a grad student, but I am now employed at the community college in town. Servicing the poor and whatnot. Teaching Nietzsche to poor people . . .

Don't think we're not on to you Shane. Did you change your avatar AND name? Or have you now recruited your poor, anarchist, Nietzche-loving students to the site! Twins Daily is Dead!

drivlikejehu
10-04-2013, 04:04 PM
OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

In fairness, Ryan has flat-out said that the Twins aren't going to be major players in free agency, and acquiring expensive player(s) via trade is even more unlikely.

For 2015, the Twins are committed to $26.95 million. They have a $3.6MM option on Burton but the buyout is only $200,000. Some players could be arbitration-eligible but none project to get much (and may well not even be with the organization). So payroll is indeed set to drop, and probably by quite a bit. The Twins were already down to 23rd this year and could easily be 28th in 2015.

Even the current level is an obvious breach of the Twins' part of the Target Field deal- but the cutting has only just begun.

Zarathustra
10-04-2013, 05:02 PM
Don't think we're not on to you Shane. Did you change your avatar AND name? Or have you now recruited your poor, anarchist, Nietzche-loving students to the site! Twins Daily is Dead!

I'm a different dude and, sorry to disappoint, am not even a real student of Nietzsche. I thought it would make for a fun, appropriate handle since forums, at least excellent ones like TD, should be about the pursuit of Truth.

And calling Mauer soft.

Kwak
10-04-2013, 05:20 PM
OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

Well, you had better get to the drug store and buy something for your stomache! That payroll is going to fall. We have already been prompted about what to expect on the free-agent market: Pelfrey, some over-the-hill position player who has played on winning teams--think Jamie Carroll clone who hails from winning teams (Omar Vizquel?) or dare I say it: Nick Punto, and maybe a Correira-clone. The price for those three (remember to deduct the $4MM paid this season to Pelfrey from your total) will be less than Morneau's 2013 salary.

Expected 2014 payroll $65-$70MM. I didn't include for the possibility that Burton or Doumit get traded--which would further reduce the payroll.

twinsfan34
10-04-2013, 05:48 PM
We did see Part I of what happens: The people responsible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_assignment_matrix#Key_responsibilit y_roles)for 99+96+96 were rewarded with 2 year contracts. Of course Ryan is accountable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_assignment_matrix#Key_responsibilit y_roles)"only" for the 96+96, but that should have been enough for an owner who cared to hold him accountable.


I wouldn't hold Ryan accountable for the 96 and 96. At least not wholly. Just like Billy Beane was not responsible for those Oakland A's teams that experience a great deal of success from 1999 to 2004. Jason Giambi, Eric Chavez, Ramon Hernandez, Tim Hudson, Miguel Tejada, Matt Stairs, Ben Grieve, et al were already there and locked into contracts. His only contributions during that time were Mark Mulder and Barry Zito. A solid FA signing in 1999 of John Jaha.

So that to say, not much of the 2012 roster is Terry Ryan's doing. You'd have to go back to 2007 (draft, signings, etc) to find who's on the roster as his doing. 2011 and 2012 were very solid drafts. He didn't sign much of anyone, but our payroll was over $100M...and we all know that had to be reduced.

nicksaviking
10-04-2013, 11:18 PM
I'm a different dude and, sorry to disappoint, am not even a real student of Nietzsche. I thought it would make for a fun, appropriate handle since forums, at least excellent ones like TD, should be about the pursuit of Truth.

And calling Mauer soft.

Ha we'll my post was just in fun, I just found it funny we got two Nietzsche references in two days. Besides, your post was much more positive than anything the other guy would write.

Rick Niedermann
10-05-2013, 06:51 AM
I'm all for being patient and waiting for the next wave of young Talent. And in 2015 the starting lineup should be pretty decent. But this group could also take it's lumps like Hicks and Arcia did. Even if they all performed to their high expectations right away there will not be enough starting pitching to make them competitive. When is the last time the Twins made a move and you said to yourself, I didn't see that coming. (maybe Neagle for Smiley in 92) This season the Twins need to be all in on 25 year old Masahiro Tanaka. The cash is there, the owner says spend it, we need a Frontline pitcher. If Terry Ryan wants to be accountable he makes a legitimate run at a top tier pitcher. Otherwise it is the same old, same old.

ThePuck
10-05-2013, 10:36 AM
I'm all for being patient and waiting for the next wave of young Talent. And in 2015 the starting lineup should be pretty decent. But this group could also take it's lumps like Hicks and Arcia did. Even if they all performed to their high expectations right away there will not be enough starting pitching to make them competitive. When is the last time the Twins made a move and you said to yourself, I didn't see that coming. (maybe Neagle for Smiley in 92) This season the Twins need to be all in on 25 year old Masahiro Tanaka. The cash is there, the owner says spend it, we need a Frontline pitcher. If Terry Ryan wants to be accountable he makes a legitimate run at a top tier pitcher. Otherwise it is the same old, same old.

In 2015, the starting lineup should have some talent...but they'll still be adjusting to the league, which some will do eventually and some won't do at all...and the pitching the same way. We keep being told by some (not you) that the parade is coming in 2015, but that is extremely unrealistic...look how long KC had really high rated farm systems. They are finally, FINALLY, getting there.

twinsnorth49
10-05-2013, 11:09 AM
I'm a different dude and, sorry to disappoint, am not even a real student of Nietzsche. I thought it would make for a fun, appropriate handle since forums, at least excellent ones like TD, should be about the pursuit of Truth.

And calling Mauer soft.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGT9n2EJsC_XKt7QYaN31qCkGrLg2B2 t4N57-daUDCR3Tl4dywvw

and to think I almost liked you.....;)

diehardtwinsfan
10-05-2013, 11:15 AM
What exactly is "taking shortcuts"? Does that mean actually attempting to be competitive before your prized prospects arrive? Because personally I don't see anything wrong with it. No one is suggesting anything that endangers the future outlook.

The question I'd ask is whether or not this is possible. They could go out and get all the good FAs and still not be competitive. I like the idea of some smart signings, which I think Abreau and Tanaka cover, but those guys are likely going to take some lumps next year.

Shane Wahl
10-05-2013, 11:19 AM
Don't think we're not on to you Shane. Did you change your avatar AND name? Or have you now recruited your poor, anarchist, Nietzche-loving students to the site! Twins Daily is Dead!

Haha! I would certainly like to hope that any student of mine could be so spot-on in his or her assessment. Those were two good first posts.

diehardtwinsfan
10-05-2013, 11:21 AM
Fascinating thread. There are those that dislike Ryan. Your choice. One person calls him arrogant, multiple chime in the same. Arrogant because he once said Twins way. Now they are losing so he is arrogant. Feel free to correct me but WTF is wrong in baseball with stressing fundamental error free baseball. Twins way in building under Ryan part 1, draft well, trade pieces under the sell high, buy low theory. Have the Twins strayed from the Twins Way? In the office and in the field about like a TD thread does from the OP. That does not make them arrogant.

I actually think that TR is the right guy for the job right now. I'm not convinced he's the right guy for the job when next wave arrives.

That said, I have to echo what others had said regarding what is perceived to be arrogance. He took a pretty unnecessary pot shot at Mackey, and like others have said, you don't get to beat your chest on your track record when it sucks. This really does concern me. I get that teams wanted to model themselves after the Twins in the early part of the 2000s... However at this point, their success has worn off and the game is clearly changing. Unfortunately, I don't see Ryan recognizing this, and that concerns me.

Fortunately, what the Twins need most right now is good scouting to identify those high ceiling guys and a means of acquiring farm talent via trade. This is what Ryan has done well throughout his career. They need this more than explosive FA signings. So for the time being, I think Ryan is the right guy to handle things. Ask me this question in 2 years, and if nothing else changes, I will not be so confident. When some of those guys fail, Ryan is going to have to fill in some gaps via FA. I dont' see him doing this.

Shane Wahl
10-05-2013, 11:25 AM
Ha we'll my post was just in fun, I just found it funny we got two Nietzsche references in two days. Besides, your post was much more positive than anything the other guy would write.

Hey! I generally was pretty positive about players and prospects, and up until just the past month or so, I would have been 51% or more in favor of keeping TR around.

To keep the philosophy references going: there was a point near the end of Martin Heidegger's career where he said something like "Only God can save us now." Heidegger was an atheist. This is analogous to the Twins, since only new ownership can save us now (and it ain't gonna happen).

diehardtwinsfan
10-05-2013, 11:26 AM
The original post was already too long, so I stopped short on a few things. Now that it has some daylight in between posts, I hope you'll humor my adding a bit more:

1) I mentioned watching/listening to 162+ games each season during the 02-10 run. I'm not fair weather. Heading into the 2010 playoffs (homefield against the Yanks remember?), I made a commitment that if the Twins didn't make it past the first round THIS time, I would significantly reduce my investment in this team until they gave me reason to do otherwise. My participation has declined, in kind, since.

And why shouldn't it for all of us? I support the institution, win or lose, not the ownership and the flagging performance of the product they disingenuously trot out.

2) The argument of the breached public contract holds outside of the vacuum of team performance. In other words, if the economic return to the tax payers could be demonstrated to be a net profit on their stadium investment (an impossible to prove metric either way), it doesn't matter. If the Pohlads had ended up losing money after the stadium was built (a distinct impossibility), it doesn't matter. The entire exercise of stadium building was predicated on the idea that the it would bring added revenue, spending, and results - a change on the field come October from what we had been experiencing.

Have we all forgotten this? That was the mantra when Torii walked, when Santana leaving was a foregone conclusion, and when all the inside and outside free agents came and went unsigned since. Money doesn't buy championships, but better (read: often costlier) players could have benefited this team throughout.

3) When money was spent ('10 and '11), it wasn't spent wisely. Accountability is, again, the thread. Bill Smith is out, but we've been told that TR was instrumental in many moves/non-moves while not GM. Also, Gardy had no influence on the composition of these teams? The reason these non-diamond-nine individuals are also well compensated is because they should have high standards of performance. How have they performed relative to the public contract?

Thanks for hearing me out. From a ND native, MN resident through those fat years, now a DC resident, I can't wait for things to turn around for our team. But to do so will take some measure of real accountability. Seriously, Go Twins.

Welcome to the site... and great posts... My only quibble is that I thought the money was spent well in 2010... not so much after...

LaBombo
10-05-2013, 03:36 PM
For the most part, I tend to think that calls for coaches and execs to get fired are reactionary and uninformed, failing to account for the many circumstances that play into any outcome.
For the most part, any other franchise in modern history has fired their manager after 3 consecutive 90 loss seasons, whatever the many circumstances that played into the outcome, and it wouldn't occur to me to label their front offices "uninformed" or "reactionary".

Some were no doubt fired because they were bad managers, but many were probably competent to very good managers who were stuck with very little talent to manage. And yet they were all let go, regardless of where they ranked on their franchise's problem list.

Rather than dismiss calls for the removal of a generally well-regarded manager, maybe an article about accountability without management changes would be better served by explaining how the Twins' situation is so unique that they should perform a nearly unprecedented act of faith by letting Gardy return.

glunn
10-07-2013, 01:53 AM
For the most part, any other franchise in modern history has fired their manager after 3 consecutive 90 loss seasons, whatever the many circumstances that played into the outcome, and it wouldn't occur to me to label their front offices "uninformed" or "reactionary".

Some were no doubt fired because they were bad managers, but many were probably competent to very good managers who were stuck with very little talent to manage. And yet they were all let go, regardless of where they ranked on their franchise's problem list.

Rather than dismiss calls for the removal of a generally well-regarded manager, maybe an article about accountability without management changes would be better served by explaining how the Twins' situation is so unique that they should perform a nearly unprecedented act of faith by letting Gardy return.

It seems to me that this has been addressed. Some people believe that Gardy should be retained because the recent troubles are due mainly to having poor talent to work with. If these people are correct, then keeping Gardy makes more sense than holding him accountable for something that is not his fault. Just because other teams scapegoat managers who are not at fault does not mean that this is a necessary component of accountability.

Personally, I wish that the Twins and Gardy had come to a mutual decision not to renew Gardy's contact, but I understand the arguments for renewing the contract.

jokin
10-07-2013, 03:13 AM
1) This thread is about accountability.



Where is the evidence? 2) They were already winning division titles, batting titles and Cy Youngs before Target Field. They breached the contract and need to be held accountable.

3) How do we hold those off the field accountable for what HASN'T happened on the field?



Great post, may I add:

1) ......"or the lack thereof"....

2)......Don't forget 2 MVP winners in that Metrodome-ensconced talent-laden group.....and a Reliever of the Year winner, besides.

3) ....It's going to ultimately end up in the Pohlad's hands to finally do something about FO accountability, and nobody else. I suspect that the fact that they had little incentive in the deal they cut for Target Field to be held accountable themselves to fulfill their PR promises means they won't have much incentive to hold the FO accountable---as long as the cash flow stays positive. This operation has been pretty much on auto-pilot since Andy McPhail and TK were running the show, anyway.

The Wise One
10-07-2013, 05:33 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the ownership made a public contract when they entered into the stadium agreement with the taxpayers of Minnesota.

If it isn't on paper, it isn't much of a contract. You and the others who go on about this sort of thing have got to realize there is no such contract. No sane baseball team would ever enter into that sort of contract. The Twins were a break even or lose money franchise until 04. They are not so stupid as to realize with attendance going down what will happen to their bottom line. That drives the product on the field.

Mr. Brooks
10-07-2013, 07:13 AM
If it isn't on paper, it isn't much of a contract. You and the others who go on about this sort of thing have got to realize there is no such contract. No sane baseball team would ever enter into that sort of contract. The Twins were a break even or lose money franchise until 04. They are not so stupid as to realize with attendance going down what will happen to their bottom line. That drives the product on the field.

That is not exactly true, verbal contracts can be binding, they are just obviously tougher to prove.

drivlikejehu
10-07-2013, 08:18 AM
If it isn't on paper, it isn't much of a contract. You and the others who go on about this sort of thing have got to realize there is no such contract. No sane baseball team would ever enter into that sort of contract. The Twins were a break even or lose money franchise until 04. They are not so stupid as to realize with attendance going down what will happen to their bottom line. That drives the product on the field.

This is a very straightforward legal question. Verbal promises are equal in weight to written promises, period. That carries down from English Common Law and remains 100% the case in every state in the US (except for the notional exception of Louisiana due to its French origins).

The Twins actually put their promises in writing as well, in the form of team statements to politicians and the media. But either way, the promises were completely unambiguous.

They entered into a contract with the public and have broken that contract.

Zarathustra
10-07-2013, 09:06 AM
If it isn't on paper, it isn't much of a contract. You and the others who go on about this sort of thing have got to realize there is no such contract. No sane baseball team would ever enter into that sort of contract. The Twins were a break even or lose money franchise until 04. They are not so stupid as to realize with attendance going down what will happen to their bottom line. That drives the product on the field.

Although the two posts above take it further and say there is, if demonstrable, a legal basis for enforcing verbal contracts, my point (and I chose my words carefully) wasn't that accountability meant charging someone with a crime, or suing them for 'our' stadium money back (although in some cases e.g. Miami, I would like to see it happen). I said they - the Pohlads, TR, even Gardy (remember the quotes from that '06 era when the Twins got bounced) - made a public contract and we, the fans - not lawyers or legislators - should hold them accountable.

While they certainly don't answer to me, they ultimately answer to us. I offer that the best way to hold them accountable is a distortion of the starfish on the shore story. I'm sure several who read my comment about my declining participation responded 'B.F.D. - I'm sure the Pohlads miss you'. However, enough fed-up starfish being thrown back into the sea and we just might make some waves. Why do people excuse what's happened/ing?

Participation isn't equivalent to fandom. I've read TD several times a week since its inception. I used to read Nick's pre-TD blog every day. What I don't do since '10 is buy mlb.tv (I'm out of market now), licensed apparel, or attend games when I visit MN. Go Twins.

LaBombo
10-08-2013, 07:26 PM
Lead paragraph of espn insider article:

Since taking over the reins of the Atlanta Braves (http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/_/name/atl/atlanta-braves) from Bobby Cox in 2011, Fredi Gonzalez is 72 games over .500, and has led his team to two consecutive postseason appearances. But last season the Braves were bounced out of the playoffs in a wild-card loss to the Cardinals, and this year they were knocked out in four games by the Los Angeles Dodgers (http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/_/name/lad/los-angeles-dodgers). In spite of his fine regular season record, given the team's postseason struggles, there must be at least some question as to whether the Braves will retain him.

Italics are theirs.

By comparison, Gardenhire entered his 10th season coming off three seasons that netted 50 wins over .500, two playoff sweeps and a tie-breaker loss.

JB_Iowa
10-09-2013, 09:56 AM
This is from an SI article by Tom Verducci today on how the Red Sox "turned it around":

The offseason plan was built on four cornerstone ideas: hold contract lengths to three years, even if it meant overpaying on an average annual value; find a manager, unlike the last one, familiar with the Boston landscape and AL baseball from, oh, maybe the last decade or so; seek out extroverted baseball rats who would watch the game from the top step of the dugout and not behind a bucket of fried chicken in the clubhouse; and pack the lineup again with hitters who grind out at-bats. That last cornerstone turned out to be the most important reason why the Red Sox dispatched the Tampa Bay Rays (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/teams/tampa-bay-rays/index.html) in four games in the AL Division Series.

Read More: Relentless Red Sox grind their way into ALCS - MLB - Tom Verducci - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20131009/boston-red-sox-alcs-alds/#ixzz2hEi2EOmf)

Don't get me wrong -- I don't think that the Twins are in the same place that the Red Sox were last season. They've lost more, have little on the current shelves and less overall money BUT, I do think there are some interesting concepts here:

1. Shorter term Free Agent contracts with an acknowledgment that they may have to "overpay" per year. The Twins have the "short term contracts" idea down pat -- they just don't seem all that willing to overpay (put Mr. Pohlad's money to work, Mr. Ryan). Not going to rehash this but there was a good Twinkie Town article recently about overpaying free agents.

2. Manager -- well the Twins definitely have a manager familiar with Minnesota and AL Baseball but somehow implicit in the Boston turnaround was also the need for a NEW manger;

3. Extroverted Baseball Rats -- this is an area where the Twins are lacking. Even Gardenhire has acknowledged the lack of a clubhouse leader and the Twins often seem dead in the dugout (I know, losing does that to you but you gotta turn it around sometime and the Twins seem to grind down extroverts);

4. Pack the lineup with hitters that grind-out at bats: drives me nuts to watch a Boston game cuz it takes forever but they clearly do grind out bats as opposed to strikeout, strikeout, strikeout (and quick at that)

Is this a game plan for the Twins to turn things around? Not by itself but there are clearly some concepts here that the Twins could adopt.