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Seth Stohs
10-01-2013, 03:49 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2380-Right-Man-for-the-Job

Jack Torse
10-01-2013, 05:33 AM
I saw the puff piece headline and didn't need to read the by line. This 3 year old and counting failed project is not Gardy's fault alone but a little turnover in a business is healthy. Especially when the subject despite being liked, hard working and all other glowing attributes you pointed out has failed at his job 3 years in a row. If they would have had this loyalty to Cuddy, Hunter and the list of departed players that that seemed to share Gardy's work eithic and professionalism maybe they could have avoided this dark hole in their history.

AM.
10-01-2013, 05:51 AM
These weren't just some projects that were viewed as some as not successful. This is overall end product of a $200 million revenue, high visibility organization in an ultra-competitive industry. The results have been extremely poor, and as a result, the organization has lost a significant amount of revenue, with more revenue losses on the horizon.

The "promote from within" mentality is definitely meritorious, and could be a advantageous strength as this sort of loyalty can shield organizations from making rash reactionary choices that can hamper long-term progress. However, the organization needs to couple employee loyalty with a culture of innovation and learning.

I don't see that learning from this manager, nor a particular desire to make any changes in his approach. I don't see any defensive shifts, or maximazation of platoon advantages, or creative bullpen usage.

And I don't see successful development and integration of young players, which is the single most important skill the Twins will need in the coming few years.

I appreciate the "big picture" view of this decision, but in my view, the big picture view shows that long-term success is most likely found under the guidance of a new leader.

raindog
10-01-2013, 06:08 AM
I appreciate the positive take, Seth. But I have to agree with AM's point of view. I could never have said it better.

Especially this part:


I don't see that learning from this manager, nor a particular desire to make any changes in his approach. I don't see any defensive shifts, or maximazation of platoon advantages, or creative bullpen usage.

Brock Beauchamp
10-01-2013, 07:05 AM
I've never cared much for Gardenhire. I think he's a bad in-game manager. He refuses to platoon, often makes bizarre calls to the pen, and generally, just makes me scratch my head, as if we're watching different events unfold on the field.

With that said, nice piece Seth. I'm neutral on retaining Gardenhire as the manager. I simply think that the manager doesn't make much of an on-field difference unless he's exceptionally intelligent and studious (Maddon, anyone?). The players seem to like Gardy. During his tenure, we have seen very few clubhouse incidents and most of the time, this franchise was lauded for being able to put its head down and play some friggin' baseball. The players have often responded to him in positive ways, though that is certainly in question after the last three Septembers.

I also understand people's problem with this move, that it feels a lot like the franchise is stuck in neutral. What I don't understand is the pure, childish vitriol spewed toward Gardenhire and his coaches over this choice. Part of this franchise's strength has been in its loyalty to management and the front office, trusting in their ability to see things through to their completion. It would have been easy to cut ties with Ryan in the late 90s but they didn't do it. It would have been easy to cut ties with Kelly in the late 90s but they didn't do it.

And that seemed to turn out okay for everyone.

chopper0080
10-01-2013, 07:23 AM
I appreciate the positive take, Seth. But I have to agree with AM's point of view. I could never have said it better.

Especially this part:

Agreed. Along with a lack of results has been a lack of improvement and development which speaks to a lack of future production.

TheLeviathan
10-01-2013, 07:35 AM
If you are waiting for Gardy to make some profound mistake to justify firing him....
It will never happen. That just isn't how baseball works, managers don't have that much control. That's partly why I'm neutral as well, but I don't like the insinuation he hasn't done enough to be fired. He never will, that can't be the reasoning for moving on.

USAFChief
10-01-2013, 08:30 AM
Just for fun, imagine you have an employee that has the opportunity to go on to another job, where he will have more resources, but where expectations will be higher and failure will be met with stern reprimand, perhaps even firing. He chooses to stay in his current job because he knows failure will be met with "meh, he's a good guy, here's another contract."

Is that someone you want leading?

Seth Stohs
10-01-2013, 08:37 AM
Truth be told, I'm pretty neutral on it as well. I think that you could create a pro-con list for Gardy and the Twins, and it would likely come out pretty equal.

I just so often hear, "Well, you can't fire the players." So teams fire the manager. Maybe it's OK to actually keep the manager that has proven himself and put it on the players. That said, with the group of players that were trying their best the last month of the season, it's hard to put too much on them. I guess, in my mind, it's all about the front office at this point. That's my honest opinion, and that's what I continually found myself going to as I was writing.

I may be the only one, but I do believe in Terry Ryan for the long-term. I do wonder what that means for 2014 when lots of players will get their opportunity all around the field. Aside from never having enough pitching, I wouldn't want to blog the Sano's, Meyer's, etc.

They are in a weird place.

JB_Iowa
10-01-2013, 08:46 AM
Just for fun, imagine you have an employee that has the opportunity to go on to another job, where he will have more resources, but where expectations will be higher and failure will be met with stern reprimand, perhaps even firing. He chooses to stay in his current job because he knows failure will be met with "meh, he's a good guy, here's another contract."

Is that someone you want leading?

Isn't this the same thing that happened with Mike Radcliff? At least one team wanted to interview him for a GM position and the Twins refused to allow the interview (perhaps at Radcliff's request).

Again, shouldn't you want your execs & coaches to be sought after by other organizations and to advance their own careers? If they do that, it provides opportunities to add "outside talent" to your own organization. But instead of injecting new thought and perspectives from time-to-time, the Twins seem to prefer to promote from within -- usually waiting until someone retires before they do even that. I can only conclude that they really don't want anyone challenging the "Twins Way".

I remember reading an article a few years ago in which Terry Ryan (I believe) told a story about going to the winter meetings (or something similar) and how they could have flown but how a bunch of them wanted to drive down (to Tennessee, I think) because they all enjoyed spending time together so much. At the time I thought it was a kind of cute, Minnesota story. Now, in my mind, it has become a symbol of too much togetherness, complacency and "old boy network" in the organization.

scottz
10-01-2013, 08:50 AM
I appreciate the attempt to have people look at it from a "real world" (i.e., non sports world) scenario, but my experience in the real world would say that the employee in question would not be retained in the same role. I have seen long-time co-workers being asked to consider moving on, shifted to other (lesser) roles, and in some cases, let go when a pattern of "projects gone bad" happens on their watch.

As a co-worker and friend, I was sad for these smart, talented managers. As someone who understands the business of my company's business, most of the time, the moves made sense.

Like I said, I appreciate the angle, but I believe my company would have made a move. A polite move, respectful of the guy in charge, but they would have made a move.

mike wants wins
10-01-2013, 08:55 AM
If Gardenhire was trying new things, and being innovative and failing, that would be one thing. But he's not. He is an awful game manager. He is stuck in 1971 in terms of understanding strategy and tactics. His pinch running decisions alone show that, let alone his refusal to platoon players, or his ability to RUN THE TEAM, as opposed to letting Mauer decide where he plays.

You, Seth, you have been saying for years they don't do the little things well. If there is one thing a coach should be able to control, it is that. He can't make a guy a great hitter if he's awful, he can't make a horrible starting pitcher a great one, but he can teach a team how to run bases, where to position themselves, and how to hit the cutoff man correctly.

Some will say "these are pros, they shoudl know that already". Well, if so, what is the point of a manager / coach then?

There just isn't evidence that he and his staff have done a good job of making the players better the longer they have worked with them. That's their role.

Lastly, talk is cheap. TR keeps saying this is his fault, but he still has his job. If all that happens next year is that some guys come up from the minors, and no real FA impacts happen again, will we give him another free pass?

USAFChief
10-01-2013, 08:57 AM
I've never cared much for Gardenhire. I think he's a bad in-game manager. He refuses to platoon, often makes bizarre calls to the pen, and generally, just makes me scratch my head, as if we're watching different events unfold on the field.

With that said, nice piece Seth. I'm neutral on retaining Gardenhire as the manager. I simply think that the manager doesn't make much of an on-field difference unless he's exceptionally intelligent and studious (Maddon, anyone?). The players seem to like Gardy. During his tenure, we have seen very few clubhouse incidents and most of the time, this franchise was lauded for being able to put its head down and play some friggin' baseball. The players have often responded to him in positive ways, though that is certainly in question after the last three Septembers.

I also understand people's problem with this move, that it feels a lot like the franchise is stuck in neutral. What I don't understand is the pure, childish vitriol spewed toward Gardenhire and his coaches over this choice. Part of this franchise's strength has been in its loyalty to management and the front office, trusting in their ability to see things through to their completion. It would have been easy to cut ties with Ryan in the late 90s but they didn't do it. It would have been easy to cut ties with Kelly in the late 90s but they didn't do it.

And that seemed to turn out okay for everyone.

a couple things:

I disagree that a manager "doesn't make much on field difference." He's deciding who to play, who to rest, when to take 6 innings of smoke and mirrors from Kevin Corriea and call it good or try for one more, when to sacrifice, etc etc etc. in an era where fans argue over "1 WAR" I find it hard to believe people think a manager doesn't affect the W/L record materially.

They ended up cutting ties with Kelly anyway. I bet the same fate befalls Gardy.

Oldgoat_MN
10-01-2013, 08:59 AM
Truth be told, I'm pretty neutral on it as well. I think that you could create a pro-con list for Gardy and the Twins, and it would likely come out pretty equal....

Can you say the same for Anderson? The starting rotation has been bad, very bad. Is there no one who could have gotten more out of those pitchers?

Is there such a thing as a 'pro' on the side of keeping a guy at his position whose sole claim to fame is that he did not ruin Johan Santana?

I would be happy to be enlightened by some wise baseball person who could explain to me what it is that makes Anderson a good pitching coach. Then I'll have to take your word for it, as there is no evidence anywhere in MLB.

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 09:04 AM
a couple things:

I disagree that a manager "doesn't make much on field difference." He's deciding who to play, who to rest, when to take 6 innings of smoke and mirrors from Kevin Corriea and call it good or try for one more, when to sacrifice, etc etc etc. in an era where fans argue over "1 WAR" I find it hard to believe people think a manager doesn't affect the W/L record materially.

They ended up cutting ties with Kelly anyway. I bet the same fate befalls Gardy.

Clearly the manager makes a difference.

mike wants wins
10-01-2013, 09:08 AM
If he doesn't, why keep Gardy, why not pay Seth 1/5th the money? Clearly the manager matters.

Winston Smith
10-01-2013, 09:23 AM
Gardy is the right man for the job because he has it.
The Twins organization is a lot like Augusta National Golf Club. Ultra conservative, extremely slow to make any change and usually only after kicking and screaming before they do. It's an old school country club where everyone pats each other on the back has a few drinks some food and they tell stories of great times past. It's also very vanilla.
Baseball has moved on to technicolor and even some clubs to HD. This club has very little diversity organization wide and that is a problem when so many of the players are non-white. They had one black coach they fired him. They added a Texas born and raised coach that speaks spanish to solve that problem. The season ending 25 man roster had no black players and 4 latin players. How can that be?
This team has to come into modern times. They need to accept technology, they need to diversify and integrate into the organization change, not token change but real change. That means going outside the country club and bringing in new innovative people with diverse backgrounds and ideas.
Does anyone see change going forward with Gardy and Ryan in charge? If you don’t accept change how do you get better?
We all like that old chair that is so comfortable even when it starts falling apart but at some point its time to start new.

IdahoPilgrim
10-01-2013, 09:24 AM
Just for fun, imagine you have an employee that has the opportunity to go on to another job, where he will have more resources, but where expectations will be higher and failure will be met with stern reprimand, perhaps even firing. He chooses to stay in his current job because he knows failure will be met with "meh, he's a good guy, here's another contract."

Is that someone you want leading?

This is speculation as to his motivation for staying, and personally I don't buy it. There are plenty of other reasons to stay, including perhaps simply enjoying living in the area, and also perhaps the young talent coming up through the system. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume his strong desire to stay stems from factors other than a desired lack of accountability.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 09:26 AM
Yesterday's decision did not upset me that much - the manager wasn't the problem - but I would have preferred a change. It's not about accountability for the terrible play, either, because that's really just code for fans wanting a fall guy.

The whole organization is just ready for some fresh air. But because that's not to be, we'll wait patiently to see if there's a genuine interest in changing course in the next 5 months. But I have my reservations that we'll see anything significantly different, and that's where my frustration lies.

Seth Stohs
10-01-2013, 09:32 AM
You, Seth, you have been saying for years they don't do the little things well. If there is one thing a coach should be able to control, it is that. He can't make a guy a great hitter if he's awful, he can't make a horrible starting pitcher a great one, but he can teach a team how to run bases, where to position themselves, and how to hit the cutoff man correctly.

I think that the Twins preach fundamentals as much as anyone. They have players bunt. They preach the PFP. They have Paul Molitor in the organization to help with base running. They put in their time teaching and practicing those things, from what we're told, more than other teams. But Gardy and his coaches can't actually bunt for the player, or run the bases for them. They can't run routes and hit cut off men for the players.

Seth Stohs
10-01-2013, 09:37 AM
Can you say the same for Anderson? The starting rotation has been bad, very bad. Is there no one who could have gotten more out of those pitchers?

My initial reaction to hearing the Anderson was coming back was disappointment. But then I thought, if I'm saying that there's not much that Gardy or any manager could have done with this roster, a big part of that has to be saying that there isn't much that Anderson can do with that pitching staff.

And, to be fair, he did well with the bullpen, for the most part. He deserves some credit for Perkins, Fien, Burton, turning Duensing's season around, and working through things with Ryan Pressly. He coaxed Kevin Correia to arguably his best season of his career, in his first year in the American League. He should get some credit for Sam Deduno's big drop in BB/9.

I've always thought Anderson was overrated. He got a ton of credit for Guardado and Hawkins, and he's had a few successes since then.

I'm not a huge fan, but I can't be upset either.

Chance
10-01-2013, 09:38 AM
Firstly, Seth, great article. I truely appreciate your opinion and your writing.<br><br>With that said, I disagree. I respect Gardy and I don't mind seeing him manage again, but what players have consistently continued to develop under him? Players don't seem to be reaching their potential. Dozier has shown more this season but how many people feel comfortable with him continuing to improve? <br><br>The pitchers have been terrible for the most part besides the bullpen. Is this on Anderson? Who has gotten better under him? Who has left and improved? This is not just the last 3 years this has been for many years. <br><br>Maybe all this is on the front office. What seems to be holding this team back is philosophy for acquiring and developing talent. Yes our minors are showing alot of promise but will that continue to be the case when they reach the majors?

Seth Stohs
10-01-2013, 09:39 AM
If he doesn't, why keep Gardy, why not pay Seth 1/5th the money? Clearly the manager matters.

I'd take that, for sure!! Ha!

nicksaviking
10-01-2013, 09:48 AM
I understand the desire to use a real world analogy but it just doesn't work. Why does Gardenhire get a pass on his consistantly failed "projects" but the players don't? Morneau got traded, not extended. Was he less of a loyal employee than Gardenhire? It wasn't Morneau's fault this club stunk, he had the second highest OPS on the team.

I don't blame Gardy, Ryan put him the the no-win situation and should be facing the music, but I'm really getting sick of those defending the move saying it's silly to "make a change just to make a change." That's condescending and blatently inaccurate. Just because the reasons are intangible doesn't make it voodoo. Numbers of blameless managers get canned each year and in many cases, it works and the teams win. Rarely does the ship get righted after retaining a manger after three terrible seasons.

Also, the implication that option #1 is the easy option is clearly false. Option one means looking an old friend in the eye and telling him he won't be coming back. Re-signing him is the easy option. I'm not upset that Gardenhire will be back, I'm just upset that Ryan continually stays within his comfort zone.

gil4
10-01-2013, 09:48 AM
I just so often hear, "Well, you can't fire the players." So teams fire the manager.

Of course, you know that cliche is a lie. They fire players all the time, although they have other names for it to make it sound better. Just last week on another thread I made a list of a dozen players I'd like to see "fired" off the 40-man roster.

I've seen the comments about how the Twins stuck with TK and he got things turned around to hand over to Gardy. The thing is I don't remember TK's teams making as many boneheaded plays. His bad teams were well-coached bad players. They could get the bunt down. They could throw to the right base. They just were overmatched talent-wise.

That's not what I have seen the past three years. The "Twins Way" was always the TK way, and that has gradually faded.

I would also add that two championships buys you some time that making the playoffs and getting knocked out in the first round doesn't.

USAFChief
10-01-2013, 09:54 AM
This is speculation as to his motivation for staying,
Fair point.

jimbo92107
10-01-2013, 10:10 AM
It's not just Ron Gardenhire that needs to go, it's The Twins Way. Gardenhire is not a bad manager, in that he does implement the philosophy that this organization has chiseled in stone. The problem has become the philosophy.

Many years ago, The Twins Way meant something different than what we are seeing now. The bullet points are the same: pitch to contact, great fielding, hit to the opposite field, etc. However, somewhere along the line something changed. Pitch to contact started to mean "nibble around the corners." Great fielding started to allow slow fielders with iron gloves and crappy accuracy, so long as they hit a home run now and then. Hit to the opposite field started to mean stand there and wait for ball four, only to watch strike three. Oh, and how many bases did you see this poor fielding, strikeout prone, nibble around the corners team steal this year? Sorry, our big, clumsy guys are too slow to steal bases, and the fast guys don't know how.

The sad fact is that The Twins Way under Ron Gardenhire and Rick Anderson has become a cartoon mockery of itself, the low-T version, the slow, passive, old man's interpretation of "the piranhas." Piranhas with dentures.

I do not question that the players on this team love Ron Gardenhire. Clearly the man is a warehouse of baseball knowledge, and he loves his players, too. The reason he should step aside is that the team needs to regain an aggressive edge that has been lost over the past few years. When the odds are 50-50 to swing or check, you should swing, hard. Get rid of slow outfielders. Pitch inside. When you're on base, you're a base stealer, not just a runner.

Baseball is a game best played hard, embracing risk. The Twins Way has become a conservative, plodding style that is dull to watch, looks boring to play, and loses over 90 games per year. Today's Twins are at or near the bottom in all the categories that make baseball fun to watch: attempted steals, home runs, strikeouts, outfield putouts, bunts, pick-offs, trick plays, etc.

You can't play pro baseball like you're trying to avoid a heart attack. The Twins need a manager that likes to roll the dice, and when he loses, can't wait to roll 'em again. Gardenhire himself talks about "getting after it," but his team plays like they're afraid of being too aggressive. It's like a fish that's scared of water, a bird that's embarrassed to flap his wings, a clown afraid to put on that big, red nose.

Embrace the risk, celebrate your own embarrassment, or hand the microphone to the next bad singer. Life is karaoke, most of us suck, but that shouldn't stop anybody from giving it a go. We love you too, Ron, but it's time for a change. Please, hand the microphone to the next bad singer. You've been kind of hogging it.

Shane Wahl
10-01-2013, 10:18 AM
One has to wonder, do the loyalists around here want anything whatsoever to change in this organization? If such woeful leadership isn't enough to make a change, what on earth is? If this goes another year of 96+ losses?

There is a lot of "the manager doesn't do much" comments around here, so one also has to wonder why those people make so much money if they don't really alter win/loss totals in any way.

I just don't understand this mentality that we have to stick with the same guys out of "loyalty" and because, well, the roster stinks anyway. We have no way of knowing, of course, what any other manager would have produced in 2013, but I am now completely flabbergasted by the justifications for hanging onto proven failing coaches and the manager.

savvyspy
10-01-2013, 10:23 AM
I would be careful throwing around this statement:

"Some choose to look at the Twins playoff record, and I understand that. However, what happens over a 162 game sample size is a more reliable indicator than a five game sample any day."

That only makes statistical sense if you are comparing two like items. I don't think playoff baseball games and a random regular season game of a 96 loss team can be compared this way. Playoff baseball is a different game. Just because its a small sample doesn't mean if the results a statistically significant they can be ignored. Statistically Gardy is one of the worst playoff managers of all time. That's just a fact. That doesn't mean hes a bad regular season manager but it also means his results aren't because of chance or a small sample size.

SpiritofVodkaDave
10-01-2013, 10:44 AM
Gardy is the right man for the job, the fact that he would have had other offers within a day of getting "canned" proves this.

People have said time and time again that Gardy should be let go, but I have yet to hear ONE person say who they should bring in instead that is a clear upgrade.

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 10:48 AM
the fact that he would have had other offers within a day of getting "canned" proves this.



Well, I'm not sure it proves anything nor can anyone say it's a FACT he would have had other offers within a day of getting canned. I'm sorry, I mean of course they can say it...one can say anything...they just have absolutely no way to prove the supposed fact.

Shane Wahl
10-01-2013, 10:48 AM
I would be careful throwing around this statement:

"Some choose to look at the Twins playoff record, and I understand that. However, what happens over a 162 game sample size is a more reliable indicator than a five game sample any day."

That only makes statistical sense if you are comparing two like items. I don't think playoff baseball games and a random regular season game of a 96 loss team can be compared this way. Playoff baseball is a different game. Just because its a small sample doesn't mean if the results a statistically significant they can be ignored. Statistically Gardy is one of the worst playoff managers of all time. That's just a fact. That doesn't mean hes a bad regular season manager but it also means his results aren't because of chance or a small sample size.

Absolutely correct. Other organizations clearly don't way playoff games on a par with regular season games. Granted it isn't as clear-cut as in the NBA (in terms of "building for the playoffs"), but there is a difference. And the winning percentage difference between Gardenhire's regular season games and his postseason games is nothing to just brush off as meaningless. Good god and a half!

In his defense, though (so people don't accuse me of "childish vitriol"), a team with 5 number 3 pitchers can do pretty well in the regular season. But that isn't going to work well in the playoffs. There looked like there was going to be that one chance with Santana, Liriano, and Radke and then . . . nope. That sort of thing falls on the GM mostly. That said, it isn't clear that Gardenhire and Anderson even *want* the type of pitcher that serves as the 1 or 2 on other teams! Not when you can just push for Nick Blackburn to be signed to some dumb contract and then declare him to be a starter in spring training the next year with no justification.

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 10:49 AM
In his defense, though (so people don't accuse me of "childish vitriol"), a team with 5 number 3 pitchers can do pretty well in the regular season.

Especially in our division from '02-'12. Might give a team an inflated record...

Willihammer
10-01-2013, 10:53 AM
It's not just Ron Gardenhire that needs to go, it's The Twins Way. Gardenhire is not a bad manager, in that he does implement the philosophy that this organization has chiseled in stone. The problem has become the philosophy.

Many years ago, The Twins Way meant something different than what we are seeing now. The bullet points are the same: pitch to contact, great fielding, hit to the opposite field, etc. However, somewhere along the line something changed. Pitch to contact started to mean "nibble around the corners." Great fielding started to allow slow fielders with iron gloves and crappy accuracy, so long as they hit a home run now and then. Hit to the opposite field started to mean stand there and wait for ball four, only to watch strike three. Oh, and how many bases did you see this poor fielding, strikeout prone, nibble around the corners team steal this year? Sorry, our big, clumsy guys are too slow to steal bases, and the fast guys don't know how.

The sad fact is that The Twins Way under Ron Gardenhire and Rick Anderson has become a cartoon mockery of itself, the low-T version, the slow, passive, old man's interpretation of "the piranhas." Piranhas with dentures.

I do not question that the players on this team love Ron Gardenhire. Clearly the man is a warehouse of baseball knowledge, and he loves his players, too. The reason he should step aside is that the team needs to regain an aggressive edge that has been lost over the past few years. When the odds are 50-50 to swing or check, you should swing, hard. Get rid of slow outfielders. Pitch inside. When you're on base, you're a base stealer, not just a runner.

Baseball is a game best played hard, embracing risk. The Twins Way has become a conservative, plodding style that is dull to watch, looks boring to play, and loses over 90 games per year. Today's Twins are at or near the bottom in all the categories that make baseball fun to watch: attempted steals, home runs, strikeouts, outfield putouts, bunts, pick-offs, trick plays, etc.

You can't play pro baseball like you're trying to avoid a heart attack. The Twins need a manager that likes to roll the dice, and when he loses, can't wait to roll 'em again. Gardenhire himself talks about "getting after it," but his team plays like they're afraid of being too aggressive. It's like a fish that's scared of water, a bird that's embarrassed to flap his wings, a clown afraid to put on that big, red nose.

Embrace the risk, celebrate your own embarrassment, or hand the microphone to the next bad singer. Life is karaoke, most of us suck, but that shouldn't stop anybody from giving it a go. We love you too, Ron, but it's time for a change. Please, hand the microphone to the next bad singer. You've been kind of hogging it.

I disagree. The piranha style of baseball might have been appropriate for a small budget team playing on astroturf, but the Twins aren't that team anymore. Moreover, piranha-ball was tested against the big AL-style DH brand of baseball over and over again, and it failed every time.

The turf has changed, revenues have changed, the game has changed too. Runs are down across the board, and coincidentally, strikeouts are up.

But the coaches and front office are the same people we had in the metrodome. Have they updated their thinking to keep pace? I don't see it. For starters, they're still last in strikeouts. They don't shift on anyone not named David Ortiz. They have two of the worst pitch framers in baseball. They won't pull a starter whose put up zeroes until his luck runs out, they won't use their best reliever in non-save situations, and they still won't make a splash in any form of domestic or international free agency.

If they won't update their thinking, then they are the wrong men for the job.

Shane Wahl
10-01-2013, 10:59 AM
Especially in our division from '02-'12. Might give a team an inflated record...

The Twins were the Blue Jays, basically. The loyalists might be signing a different tune if we could merely trade places with those dirty Canucks. The "division title" defense would go away and then . . . what's left again? The player like him?

Hosken Bombo Disco
10-01-2013, 11:18 AM
Good article but my first take is that Gardy doesn't really "work at a job" and he's paid an obscene amount of money with the understanding what the trade off is (being fired at the pleasure of the owner). In most places that's how pro sports works. Other commenters above said it better.

Speaking business, I've got to think if the Twins take another deep dive below 500 early next season, and with all the suits in baseball descending on Mpls for the All Star Game in July, that Pohlad, the gracious host, would just be too embarrassed to stand pat and would maybe clean house at that point, and send his good friend Gardenhire packing on a year and a half paid vacation. But that could just be me trying to kick Lucy's football again.

old nurse
10-01-2013, 11:24 AM
No player brought up through the Twins organization other than Mauer was a can't miss prospect. Elements of their game were added to. Morneau became an MVP. With recent players, clear progress was made with Revere, Span, Florimon, and Dozier. Is the recent lack of talent being developed due to the lack of talent to be developed or those doing the developing? The number of minor league players with potentially bright futures would lead me to say the former although the lack of development by Plouffe and Parmelee gives a little pause.

Rosterman
10-01-2013, 11:25 AM
It's a strange situation in Twinsville.

It is crying out for change, but it has to happen within the whole organization. I think ownership is afraid of that, and working with the long-range plan that Mr. Ryan and his staff does have in place.

Think about it, bring in a new GM, who would pepper the front office with numerous other staff changes, bring in a new manager and coaches that MAY be 360 degrees different than whatever approach the whole system from major leagues to A-ball has established. Prospects MAY be moved for proven yet soon to be expensive players, choices would be made to draft this type of bat or that type of thrower that totally goes against what is in the system right now.

One wants to think the Twins do have a plan. We know what that is...not to spend money (i.e. "we have a new stadium and revenue streams so we can keep our players when they reach free agency), move players thru the system slowly or in spurts so they don't all demand huge paydays at the same time (how many players play for the same team a full three seasons, my friends, or five seasons), stay away from free agency (or signing your own players) not thinking that they MAY be flippable.

But, the Twins do have a plan. Will all the pieces come together. I look at a lineup (one of Gardy's faults) of Presley, Dozier, Mauer, Willingham, Doumit, Plouffe, Arcia, Pinto, Florimon and it doesn't look too bad. That is assuming Mauer MAY play more at first. Switch out right now Pinto for Colabello or Parmelee and it doesn't look as good. The Twins still need a bat (think Morneau in his prime) as well as great seasons from Willingham and Doumit. We know what to expect from the other guys. We will see BIG changes afoot in the infield as we work in 1-2-3 prospects. There are two outfielders in the system that may get a chance to shine in 2014.

The bullpen is strong. There are tradable pieces (Swarzak, Burton, Duensing, even Fein -- a couple, but not all).

It is the rotation in which the Twins need to spend. Three starters at least. One can be a placeholder, as they already have a stream of placeholders in the wings (Worley, Diamond, Hendriks). Gibson is a longterm given for now. Meyer, May, Dean, Darnell...if we get two, we can jump up and down. Deduno is questioable and should be traded as soon as he gets well and pus together a few starts. Correia is around for just one more year and is replaceable.

So, the Twins need a bat and three starters. They have four potential free agents that are tradable in the nest year (Burton, Willingham, Doumit, Correia). All could be easily replaced by people in the system in 2015. Maybe some seasoning, but replaced.

Brings us back to keeping Gardy. And the staff. They had a raw deal this year. You had challenged rookies who are free swingers (Arcia, Hicks). And you had a load of guys that fit nowhere in longterm plans (Berneir, Thomas, Mastro, Ramirez, even Carroll and Escobar). You had wonderkid Colabello who was clearly overmatched, but I can applaud and cheer for the guy. You saw that Parmelee and Hendriks may be lost causes. Gardy had to work with these guys, encourage them, give them a chance. He suffered for it.

I'm happy for Gardy and his staff. I believe there is a long-range Twins plan in place to put butts in the seat. I would love to see a bit more excitement overall (the Twins seem to be the most unexciting team in baseball hands down -- boring front office, a nice pretty stadium with a cool breeze and friendly vendors...it is at least the most relaxed club in baseball at times).

Sconnie
10-01-2013, 11:31 AM
After 25 years of service would I want my boss to choose option 2? Yes. After 3 years of being measurably worse than my peers and being in the very bottom of my industry in performance, would my boss choose option 2? No. It would never get to a whole year, let alone three no matter my track record previously. But then, my industry has many more qualified applicants to take my job than Gardy's. The main difference between me and Gardy (besides the obvious) is that I have the ability to hire and fire my employees, and because of that more of the credit of failure or success rests on my shoulders.

Is Gardy the right guy? I don't know. Does a change need to be made? I think so, change for the sake of change can be a good thing. Does it need to be Gardy? Possibly, but I blame TR/BS more than Gardy for the current situation because those two GMs have/had the ability and resources to pull in the right people for the job (including coaching), and obviously have not.... Yet....

I'm disappointed in Gardenhire's rehire for the same reason I am about resigning Pelfrey. It's not because they are bad people, bad player/manager. It's not even because I think they are wrong for the job. I'm disappointed because I know that for as long as status quo remains in the Minnesota Twins front office, I will be a fan of an atrocious baseball team.

TheLeviathan
10-01-2013, 11:37 AM
Gardy is the right man for the job, the fact that he would have had other offers within a day of getting "canned" proves this.

People have said time and time again that Gardy should be let go, but I have yet to hear ONE person say who they should bring in instead that is a clear upgrade.

you realize the reason that isn't happening is because the matter is subjective, not clear. Not only tht, but many aren't asking for him to be fired out of incompetence but more for the need of organizational change and accountability. Frankly, your demands are a poor starting point for any reasonable discussion.

nicksaviking
10-01-2013, 11:55 AM
Gardy is the right man for the job, the fact that he would have had other offers within a day of getting "canned" proves this.

People have said time and time again that Gardy should be let go, but I have yet to hear ONE person say who they should bring in instead that is a clear upgrade.

It is not a "fact" and even if Gardy did get a new gig ASAP, that doesn't "prove" he could turn the Twins around.

The only reports of landing spots I heard regarding Gardy were the Cubs and Mets. But the Mets don't need a manager and the Cubs? What a laugh. Bill James desciples Theo Epstein and Jed Hoyer are going to hire an old school manager who derisively calls Sabrmetrics "Cybermetrics?" I think not.

I'm not upset about Gardy staying but I feel compelled to defend those who want him gone as there are so many reasons to demand a change from this stuffy, conservative organization.

zustiak
10-01-2013, 12:07 PM
Just for fun, imagine you have an employee that has the opportunity to go on to another job, where he will have more resources, but where expectations will be higher and failure will be met with stern reprimand, perhaps even firing. He chooses to stay in his current job because he knows failure will be met with "meh, he's a good guy, here's another contract."

Is that someone you want leading?

Well said. Twins win, Gardenhire gets the credit. Twins lose, front office blames all the youth. You could not hand-pick a better or less stressful managerial/coaching position. He has
the only excuse he will ever need handed to him by Terry Ryan.

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 12:17 PM
If it's all about the talent on the field and nothing at all to do with how the coaches and manager do their jobs, why was Jerry White fired? Serious question. The FIRST BASE COACH was somehow a big enough contributor to losing HE was fired?

Oh and Stelmaszek as well.

LaBombo
10-01-2013, 12:22 PM
Many will choose to look at the last three seasons.
Every other organization in baseball would "choose to look at the last three seasons" and fire him. That's simply a historical fact dating back over to WWII. Lose 90 games three years in a row and you're gone.

You can go on about talent level and loyalty and the simple-minded fan desire for change for the sake of change, but at the end of the day you're advocating something that simply doesn't happen.

So I question your perspective, Seth. I don't consider the Twins 'lucky' to retain the services of a manager whose record the past three years was so awful that going back 70 years, only Hall of Fame legend Casey Stengel lost more games in that span and kept his job.

Now that you've put Ron Gardenhire and Casey Stengel in the same sentence, I'm wondering what good you hope will come of bringing back our modern-day 'Old Perfesser'.

In the incredibly rare eight (including 3 expansion teams and two contraction candidates) instances since WWII of a manager being allowed to return after three 90 loss seasons, they all lost over 90 games again, averaging around 100 or so. Four of them were fired and one retired during the following season and two were fired after. Only Kelly survived, and managed a grand total of one more season.

So knowing that the historical upside of bringing back a guy who you're inadvertently elevating to Stengelesque stature even though no other organization in postwar baseball history would him bring back is about a hundred losses next year and one more season around .500, do you still feel you're objectively evaluating Ron Gardenhire and what's best for the Twins?

IdahoPilgrim
10-01-2013, 01:20 PM
I am not surprised that Gardenhire is back, and I don't think he is the problem, though I probably would side with those who say a fresh voice would be appropriate at this time.

That said, one thing this may help is attracting FAs. Gardenhire is well respected around the league and I would think that has to be a plus when trying to sell the club to prospective new players.

alskntwnsfn
10-01-2013, 01:44 PM
I have some pretty strong feelings on the matter.

It is obvious that Gardy and his staff must go. TR should be demoted to head of scouting or player development. Here's why this is the only defensible course of action:

TR and his staff has a great eye for young players, but they do a horrendous job of signing free agents. I can't find the link, but somebody did a great analysis a few weeks ago illustrating how well different teams have done signing FA's back to 1995. Minnesota fared terrible. But that just puts numbers next to what we already know, this team consistently throws away money every offseason. TR has made some nice trades but we need to do a better job of filling in the gaps on our team if we are ever going to seriously compete.

The bigger problem is Gardenhire, and not so much him, but his staff. We know he didn't have a great squad to work with, but I don't think it should have been this bad. Gardy has a few different problems that will always limit us so long as he is the manager. First, he does not platoon or seem to give much thought to playing matchups. Second, he favors 'scrappy' guys and insists his young hitters fit the Twins 'spray the ball around' mold. Third, his staff is just not paying attention.

Three examples of #3, that I think are fireable offenses, if not for Gardy, at least the pitching and hitting coaches. First one... Colabello's first few weeks in the majors, he goes like 1 for his first 24 with 15 K's (or thereabouts), I watched two minutes of a game against Milwaukee and could see he wouldn't reach the outside part of the plate with a broom handle. It took a call from Tony f'ing Olivia to tell him to move closer, he did and shortly thereafter he went on a hot streak. Watching Morneau in early July, his head was moving so much it was obvious why he was struggling to make contact. I said to a friend, "watch, if he stops moving his head so much he's going to get hot", a few weeks later he did and he said it came about because him and Joe Mauer looked at video and talked about it. Finally, on hitting, this team is way too reactive... very few of the hitters seem to guess or anticipate early in the count. We are constantly fouling pitches off that should be ripped in the gap. If you're a hitter, you've got to guess. Second example, we trotted out just above everyone to try as a starter and yet Anthony Swarzak remained in the pen despite consistently pitching well in longer relief stints. Why not give him another crack at the rotation. Also, Samuel Deduno. Guy obviously has nasty stuff, but the inability of the coaching staff to get him to throw strikes is frustrating. Also, Mike Pelfrey. His arm was really live given it was on an operating table last year, but he has got to change speeds. That killed him this year. In several starts I watched he was often squeezed by the umpire but he also had guys hit a lot of quality pitches very hard. Keep guys off balance more and they won't do that. I won't even mention Liriano. Even though I'm pissed this staff didn't do better, this was just not a good lineup or a good staff. At best they were going to be maybe .500 or a touch better.

Finally, as to Gardy. Gardy talks endlessly about doing the fundamental things to win but each night we'd see sloppy play. At some point the blame for shifts to the manager.

Maybe we'll time it right in 2 to 3 years and get lucky but unless we do the following:
- get a better return on free agent dollars (to fill in around core players)
- take smarter at-bats instead of always looking to slap the ball the other way
- play the percentages to gain an advantage
- get more out of the pitchers we have in AA-MLB

We might end up wasting the prime years of Sano-Buxton-Arcia-Meyer the same way we wasted the prime years of Mauer-Morneau-Santana-Nathan.

The 2013 Baseball Prospectus preview of the Twins was spot on. To paraphrase: TK was Gardy's mentor. Most people tend to emulate their mentors but amplify their mentor's points of emphasis. When strategies or viewpoints are taken to an extreme, they usually collapse. Gardy has taken the "fundamental" approach preached by TK to an extreme at it has come at the expense of things like power and strikeouts.

The results of 2013 were disappointing, though not unexpected. What was more worrisome to me was to see so little change in the way things are done despite our 3rd 90+ loss season in a row. I think 2013 exposed some big flaws in how this team was built and how it was managed.

DAM DC Twins Fans
10-01-2013, 01:52 PM
Seth: I thought it was a great article from a different perspective. I enjoyed it.

I am neutral on Gardy coming back--but maybe he deserves a chance with a better roster. I am sure if fired, Gardy would have gotten a job within a month (here in DC likely). I definitely prefer Gardy to Glynn and Molitar who have no big league managing experience. If 2014 continues the trend, fire him next year...

USAFChief
10-01-2013, 01:53 PM
I am not surprised that Gardenhire is back, and I don't think he is the problem, though I probably would side with those who say a fresh voice would be appropriate at this time.

That said, one thing this may help is attracting FAs. Gardenhire is well respected around the league and I would think that has to be a plus when trying to sell the club to prospective new players.
Let's hope you're correct.

However, that perspective doesn't match well with TR's famous "can't give our money away" quote. Or for that matter, with the opinions of many posters here who claim FAs won't come here, or at the least would require a massive "overpay."

DAM DC Twins Fans
10-01-2013, 01:55 PM
I enjoyed the article Seth. I liked the different perspective. I am not surprised to see Gardy coming back--a reward for the 998 wins. I prefer him to Molitor (no managing experience) and most others mentioned.

Kwak
10-01-2013, 02:42 PM
"However the only thing worse than making a move to appease the players is a move to appease the fans."

Really? It sounds as if the hierarchy in this fantasy world is: Pohlads>Twins>Ryan>Gardenhire>Players>Fans

Or are there some more entities between Gardenhire and the fans?--Like say local government and local businesses and gosh knows--and finally at the very bottom--fans. WOW! It makes me wonder who really wrote that?

But, I will concede that it sure appears as if the TPTB consider the fans are nothing more than sheep to be sheared and later slaughtered.

Consider--Not even ONE change in management! It's as if had been a total success--World Series Champions, best regular season record, over-full stadium with people panting ("overpaying") to get a ticket from a re-seller,... I lived in chicago when the Bulls had their championship runs--and that's what is was like.--I'm sorry is that happening in Minneapolis/
Even the most successful companies make some changes--competition requires constant improvement!--But Not the Twins! Simply shuffle the cards, but a "vet" who "has won" (clearly there aren't any on this team!) sprinkle a few new faces bent on "overachieving"--and we're good! The fault lies with (drumroll please) injuries and underachieving (disloyal?) players.

They are good sandwiches--but I don't consider them that good.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 03:13 PM
Gardy is the right man for the job, the fact that he would have had other offers within a day of getting "canned" proves this.

People have said time and time again that Gardy should be let go, but I have yet to hear ONE person say who they should bring in instead that is a clear upgrade.

Whether he's the right right man for the job is an open question. But your "fact" proves nothing to the answer. It only proves that other teams feel he's right for their jobs.

Meanwhile the Twins have substantial evidence to suggest he's not the guy to turn the Twins around.

Oldgoat_MN
10-01-2013, 03:53 PM
My initial reaction to hearing the Anderson was coming back was disappointment. But then I thought, if I'm saying that there's not much that Gardy or any manager could have done with this roster, a big part of that has to be saying that there isn't much that Anderson can do with that pitching staff.

And, to be fair, he did well with the bullpen, for the most part. He deserves some credit for Perkins, Fien, Burton, turning Duensing's season around, and working through things with Ryan Pressly. He coaxed Kevin Correia to arguably his best season of his career, in his first year in the American League. He should get some credit for Sam Deduno's big drop in BB/9.

I've always thought Anderson was overrated. He got a ton of credit for Guardado and Hawkins, and he's had a few successes since then.

I'm not a huge fan, but I can't be upset either.

Thank you Seth. I thought the bullpen coach worked mostly with the bullpen guys, but I'm sure they mix it up.
Appreciate the feedback.

Shane Wahl
10-01-2013, 04:41 PM
Maybe another way to look at the past three years is to check the "what if" posts made by various people (I believe Seth did one last year and this year) with regard to "if X can remain healthy, if X finds the strike zone, if X prospect emerges", etc. etc. "then the Twins have a chance at a competitive team." Take the list for going into 2012, the list for going into 2013, and then make a list for going into 2014 and see if that list has gotten bigger each year or not.

I look toward 2014 and have to believe the list is bigger than ever. Going into 2013 the list would include Morneau bouncing back . . . but everything else on that list, ranging from the emergence of Aaron Hicks to the "progress" of Trevor Plouffe to mitigating the SP deficit is the same. I mean, I would contend that we still don't know about Parmelee and even Hendriks in full still. Now add in Mauer's health concerns again, Willingham returning to even a shadow of 2012, multiple prospects emerging, Dozier a fluke?, the SP situation looks actually worse with more question marks now than even last year, etc.

The rebuild hasn't even officially started yet! Things are going backwards with more hope and dream "what ifs" to become relevant and get over even 70 wins!

And *no one* gets held accountable for this?

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 04:48 PM
Maybe another way to look at the past three years is to check the "what if" posts made by various people (I believe Seth did one last year and this year) with regard to "if X can remain healthy, if X finds the strike zone, if X prospect emerges", etc. etc. "then the Twins have a chance at a competitive team." Take the list for going into 2012, the list for going into 2013, and then make a list for going into 2014 and see if that list has gotten bigger each year or not.

I look toward 2014 and have to believe the list is bigger than ever. Going into 2013 the list would include Morneau bouncing back . . . but everything else on that list, ranging from the emergence of Aaron Hicks to the "progress" of Trevor Plouffe to mitigating the SP deficit is the same. I mean, I would contend that we still don't know about Parmelee and even Hendriks in full still. Now add in Mauer's health concerns again, Willingham returning to even a shadow of 2012, multiple prospects emerging, Dozier a fluke?, the SP situation looks actually worse with more question marks now than even last year, etc.

The rebuild hasn't even officially started yet! Things are going backwards with more hope and dream "what ifs" to become relevant and get over even 70 wins!

And *no one* gets held accountable for this?

If you have to hope that everything goes right in order to even be competitive, the team you built isn't that good to begin with. Players have off years, players get injured, the 'what if' game is a good way to feel better about the talent, but it doesn't really change anything. A team needs to add talent, talent and more talent in all ways possible all the time. Quality depth is good.

LaBombo
10-01-2013, 04:52 PM
And *no one* gets held accountable for this?
Of course not. The front office probably at least partly blames misguided fans, wrapped up in the simple arithmetic of wins and losses instead of appreciating baseball played "the Twins way", who've stopped paying attention and thereby reduced the revenue pool and resulting player salary available.

And it seems extremely likely we'll be held accountable throughout off-season free agency...

Kwak
10-01-2013, 05:09 PM
Of course not. The front office probably at least partly blames misguided fans, wrapped up in the simple arithmetic of wins and losses instead of appreciating baseball played "the Twins way", who've stopped paying attention and thereby reduced the revenue pool and resulting player salary available.

And it seems extremely likely we'll be held accountable throughout off-season free agency...

The Twins reward loyalty and punish "disloyalty"--so that is expected, it's our fault that the team loses.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
10-01-2013, 06:05 PM
How would you want your boss and his or her superiors to respond?

-------
This analogy that you're making, Seth, is completely off point. There are only 30 MLB managers in the WORLD. It's an extremely competitive field where performance is really the end all deciding factor of whether you keep their job. Where as for common folk, there are 1,000s, 100,000s, millions even, that all do the same job where the work isn't as competitive and demanding. If Obama wasn't being a successful president, we'd vote him out and get someone who can.Let's keep it in baseball speak. It's not bad for the Twins if the grounds crew does their job, but not perfectly. It is bad if the people on top, like Gardy, aren't at an optimal level and have proven that their skills aren't up to current job standards. Being a manager for the Twins is much different than it was in 2006. We need a manager who works well with our youth, uses his head more than his gut, and has some experience. Gardy only meets one of those.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
10-01-2013, 06:09 PM
Smart people know that they aren't experts at everything and will choose to learn from someone who is. You can choose whether or not you want to listen to someone who knows more than you or be stubborn and try it yourself. The Twins aren't being smart by refusing to get someone who knows something different than what is currently going on.

Sconnie
10-01-2013, 06:37 PM
How would you want your boss and his or her superiors to respond?

-------
This analogy that you're making, Seth, is completely off point. There are only 30 MLB managers in the WORLD. It's an extremely competitive field where performance is really the end all deciding factor of whether you keep their job. Where as for common folk, there are 1,000s, 100,000s, millions even, that all do the same job where the work isn't as competitive and demanding. If Obama wasn't being a successful president, we'd vote him out and get someone who can.Let's keep it in baseball speak. It's not bad for the Twins if the grounds crew does their job, but not perfectly. It is bad if the people on top, like Gardy, aren't at an optimal level and have proven that their skills aren't up to current job standards. Being a manager for the Twins is much different than it was in 2006. We need a manager who works well with our youth, uses his head more than his gut, and has some experience. Gardy only meets one of those. The economics of the situation dictate more patience , not less. If there are millions of people qualified and trying to get the job, it dictates a shorter leash than Gardy's situation where there are dozens of qualified candidates who are looking to fill the role. That being said, 9 years of acceptable results followed by 3 years of worst among your peers results, absolutely deserves of being fired. Exceeding expectations (World Series champ) garners the longer leash.

Sconnie
10-01-2013, 06:48 PM
Alright Seth, I've argued with myself into a corner where I have to agree with you. While I'm still pissed about the status quo and coming to grips with being a fan of a crappy team, my argument stands true. If you suck at your job, but there's nobody better to replace you, and you've had success in the past, then your boss is a fool to replace you with someone worse. It makes me sad:(

Mr. Brooks
10-01-2013, 07:47 PM
Count me in the Ruesse camp.
Gardy has created, or at least allowed, a culture of "i'll play when I want to play" to take over the clubhouse.
Say what you want about Ruesse, but there is NOBODY in this market who has more baseball sources than him, and if he says that part of the reason Cuddyer wanted out was because of the culture of "entitlement" that has been created, I believe him.
Far too often guys miss far too many games with extremely minor injuries.

And on another sub topic that has been brought up in this thread, I really don't understand the statement, "...the worst thing they could do is cave into fan pressure..."
LOL, what?
Aren't the fans the customers?
As a business owner, I have to say that placing such minimal value on customer satisfaction is pretty laughable.
I'm trying to picture myself telling a disgruntled customer that I can't really go around appeasing my customers, I'm not sure I'd keep much business if I did so.

howieramone
10-01-2013, 08:10 PM
Count me in the Ruesse camp.
Gardy has created, or at least allowed, a culture of "i'll play when I want to play" to take over the clubhouse.
Say what you want about Ruesse, but there is NOBODY in this market who has more baseball sources than him, and if he says that part of the reason Cuddyer wanted out was because of the culture of "entitlement" that has been created, I believe him.
Far too often guys miss far too many games with extremely minor injuries.

And on another sub topic that has been brought up in this thread, I really don't understand the statement, "...the worst thing they could do is cave into fan pressure..."
LOL, what?
Aren't the fans the customers?
As a business owner, I have to say that placing such minimal value on customer satisfaction is pretty laughable.
I'm trying to picture myself telling a disgruntled customer that I can't really go around appeasing my customers, I'm not sure I'd keep much business if I did so.

What he means is just becomes some fans panic doesn't mean you have to. Nothing some fans like more than firing people or signing free agents to 6 year, 147M contracts. The Twins have millions of loyal and knowledgeable fans, you don't cave in to a vocal minority. If millions decide to vote with their feet, then that's a different deal.

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 08:18 PM
What he means is just becomes some fans panic doesn't mean you have to. Nothing a fan board likes more than firing people or signing free agents to 6 year, 147M contracts. The Twins have millions of loyal and knowledgeable fans, you don't cave in to a vocal minority. If millions decide to vote with their feet, then that's a different deal.

This is the second time in the last two or three days that you've said the Twins have millions of loyal and knowledgeable fans, then right after say something that seemingly classifies others are not. Are there people on here you're referring to that you don't think meet this criteria because they disagree with your point of view or Ryan's point of view/plan of action?

Oh, and BTW, show all of us the poster(s) who said they want to sign free agents to 6 year 147M contracts.

Riverbrian
10-01-2013, 08:40 PM
This is the second time in the last two or three days that you've said the Twins have millions of loyal and knowledgeable fans, then right after say something that seemingly classifies others are not. Are there people on here you're referring to that you don't think meet this criteria because they disagree with your point of view or Ryan's point of view/plan of action?

Oh, and BTW, show all of us the poster(s) who said they want to sign free agents to 6 year 147M contracts.

Puck And Howie... I'm gonna step in and ask for niceness. More accurately... Warn...

Niceness will prevent slippage from the rails.

USAFChief
10-01-2013, 09:28 PM
Roughly a half million voted with their feet in 2013 compared to 2011. Does anyone know what FSNs baseball ratings were this year compared to 2 yrs ago?

TheLeviathan
10-01-2013, 09:36 PM
Roughly a half million voted with their feet in 2013 compared to 2011. Does anyone know what FSNs baseball ratings were this year compared to 2 yrs ago?

Well, even if you can find that number you'll have to also find out how many of them were busy preparing the parade route.

I think we'll start seeing that backlash coming soon if this offseason is underwhelming. Target Field, in all it's brilliant glory, is masking some larger issues.

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 09:37 PM
Well, even if you can find that number you'll have to also find out how many of them were busy preparing the parade route.

Or how many people actually attended as opposed to sold tickets

TheLeviathan
10-01-2013, 09:39 PM
Or how many people actually attended as opposed to sold tickets

I think that's important too. They sold a lot of season tickets (part of my theory about the hold the all-star game has had) but the park is almost never as full as the attendance states. I wish we could get our hands on season ticket figures.

jokin
10-01-2013, 10:11 PM
I think that's important too. They sold a lot of season tickets (part of my theory about the hold the all-star game has had) but the park is almost never as full as the attendance states. I wish we could get our hands on season ticket figures.

I don't have the link, but a few weeks ago Rob Antony was quoted as saying the Twins sold 19000 season tickets this year, down significantly by about 24% year-over-year from 2012, repeating a similar percentage decline for 2012 versus 2011.

jokin
10-01-2013, 10:15 PM
Well, even if you can find that number you'll have to also find out how many of them were busy preparing the parade route.

I think we'll start seeing that backlash coming soon if this offseason is underwhelming. Target Field, in all it's brilliant glory, is masking some larger issues.

The Pohlad's, of course, know that the "the new stadium" effect bought them time in having to realistically address the larger issues, as well as the 2014 All Star game (and the Pohlad's got a significant bump in their net worth while they wait in having to deal with this mess). Until the IRS/Carl Pohlad estate issues are made more clear, they probably are going to continue to limit significant payroll bumps.

beckmt
10-02-2013, 12:57 AM
Talent wins games, both Casey Stengel and Connie Mack had multiple very bad losing seasons. At the end of the year many of the players on the team are not going to be here in the future, Diamond, Albers, De Vires, Pedro Hernandez, Bernier, Mastro, Fryer to name a few. Several others should be traded or roles redefined (Duensing, Parmelle, Collobella, Plouffe, Escobar, Pressley, Hendriks). Others should be traded for new parts during the next season (Willingham, Doumit). That is 40% of the current 40 man roster, with many of these being gone over the winter. No manager could win with this group, now if after next year players do not develop as expected at the major league level, that is a whole new issue, that could get a manager fired. I do not like calling out players(which I feel Gardy does too often, even if the need it). You will not get the best performance out of your players if they feel tension from making mistakes. That was the reason I would not have been disappointed to see him go, but I hope the Twins have talked to him about improvement in this area.

howieramone
10-02-2013, 01:38 AM
I agree players should not be called out, but I certainly understand Gardy's frustration. This is an organization that is not used to losing and quite frankly not used to being questioned the way they are. But that's life in the big city.

wagwan
10-02-2013, 03:46 AM
What I don't understand is why the players are supporting Gardy while he is quickly pointing the finger right at them. He says they are the problem, not him. Do they not get that they will be replaced according to Gardy and Ryan? Or is it only the "safe" players who support him? And if that's the case, what value does that support have?

Riverbrian
10-02-2013, 07:59 AM
What I don't understand is why the players are supporting Gardy while he is quickly pointing the finger right at them. He says they are the problem, not him. Do they not get that they will be replaced according to Gardy and Ryan? Or is it only the "safe" players who support him? And if that's the case, what value does that support have?

That would certainly be dysfunctional.

Pohlad: So... Gardenhire?

Ryan: (Gives the Thumbs Up Sign) Let's Keep him

Pohlad: Really? Why?

Ryan: Jim... I'm responsible for giving him the bad baseball players that he had to work with... All in All... I'm very impressed by the job Ron did... Through it all... He hasn't lost the clubhouse. Those players want to play for him.

Pohlad: So... You are saying... The players performed better this year because they want to play for Ron.

Ryan: Yes... Yes I am... Except... Well... No... No I'm not... (Coughs) What I'm saying is... that if the players played better this year. They would be happy to do so under Gardenhire's direction.

Pohlad: Are we keeping those players?

Ryan: No we are not... Ok... Let me rephrase that... We will not keep those players IF we can find better players. If we can't... If we can't find better players... We will have to keep them.

Pohlad: If we bring in new players... Will they want to play for Ron? Will they come to Minnesota to play for Ron?

Ryan: Yes they will... Except... Well... No they won't... Because Ron has lost a lot of baseball games the past 3 years. But I want to be clear that if we hadn't lost this many games... That these players we are trying to bring in... They would love to play for Ron.

Pohlad: If we were winning games the past three years... would we be looking for new players?

Ryan: No... We wouldn't be.

Pohlad: Ok... the recommendation is stay with Ron for another year because he hasn't lost the clubhouse.

Ryan: Two Years.

ThePuck
10-02-2013, 08:09 AM
That would certainly be dysfunctional.

Pohlad: So... Gardenhire?

Ryan: (Gives the Thumbs Up Sign) Let's Keep him

Pohlad: Really? Why?

Ryan: Jim... I'm responsible for giving him the bad baseball players that he had to work with... All in All... I'm very impressed by the job Ron did... Through it all... He hasn't lost the clubhouse. Those players want to play for him.

Pohlad: So... You are saying... The players performed better this year because they want to play for Ron.

Ryan: Yes... Yes I am... Except... Well... No... No I'm not... (Coughs) What I'm saying is... that if the players played better this year. They would be happy to do so under Gardenhire's direction.

Pohlad: Are we keeping those players?

Ryan: No we are not... Ok... Let me rephrase that... We will not keep those players IF we can find better players. If we can't... If we can't find better players... We will have to keep them.

Pohlad: If we bring in new players... Will they want to play for Ron? Will they come to Minnesota to play for Ron?

Ryan: Yes they will... Except... Well... No they won't... Because Ron has lost a lot of baseball games the past 3 years. But I want to be clear that if we hadn't lost this many games... That these players we are trying to bring in... They would love to play for Ron.

Pohlad: If we were winning games the past three years... would we be looking for new players?

Ryan: No... We wouldn't be.

Pohlad: Ok... the recommendation is stay with Ron for another year because he hasn't lost the clubhouse.

Ryan: Two Years.

That is fantastic!

JB_Iowa
10-02-2013, 08:13 AM
That is fantastic!

Gotta love that super sleuth technology that let RB bug Ryan's office.

ThePuck
10-02-2013, 08:15 AM
Gotta love that super sleuth technology that let RB bug Ryan's office.

He got Ryan's double-talk down pat! :-)

ThePuck
10-02-2013, 08:23 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/p480x480/969606_10200821987085316_808382968_n.jpg

Riverbrian
10-02-2013, 11:02 AM
It's kind of like Butch Cassidy and Sundance looking over the Cliff and Sundance not wanting to jump because he can't swim.

We can't replace Gardy as Manager because the locker room will be upset.

It's the Players that are gonna kill you.

howieramone
10-02-2013, 11:17 AM
It's kind of like Butch Cassidy and Sundance looking over the Cliff and Sundance not wanting to jump because he can't swim.

We can't replace Gardy as Manager because the locker room will be upset.

It's the Players that are gonna kill you.

It's like when the coach was asked about his team's execution. He replied, it's not a bad idea.

Teflon
10-02-2013, 01:10 PM
First of all, in a business scenario Gardy isn't merely an important employee, he's an executive in the company.

Secondly, companies don't choose termination because they are too lazy or unwilling to shoulder their part of the responsibility. They choose termination because there is an immediacy in business to respond to customers, shareholders and the stock price. Show me a board of directors that says to their execs, "Our stock has sunk 50% over the last three years, here's a two-year extension for you and your staff" and I'll show you a business that will quickly have no capital to operate.

If the Twins' level of season ticket income, TV revenue, licensing money, share of opponent's gates, and portion of other MLB revenue sources actually mirrored their decline in wins, don't kid yourself, this team would be under new management in a heartbeat. That's why this is a bad analogy.

LaBombo
10-02-2013, 04:22 PM
It's like when the coach was asked about his team's execution. He replied, it's not a bad idea.
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0616/nfl_g_jmckay_400.jpg

Sconnie
10-02-2013, 07:35 PM
That would certainly be dysfunctional.

Pohlad: So... Gardenhire?

Ryan: (Gives the Thumbs Up Sign) Let's Keep him

Pohlad: Really? Why?

Ryan: Jim... I'm responsible for giving him the bad baseball players that he had to work with... All in All... I'm very impressed by the job Ron did... Through it all... He hasn't lost the clubhouse. Those players want to play for him.

Pohlad: So... You are saying... The players performed better this year because they want to play for Ron.

Ryan: Yes... Yes I am... Except... Well... No... No I'm not... (Coughs) What I'm saying is... that if the players played better this year. They would be happy to do so under Gardenhire's direction.

Pohlad: Are we keeping those players?

Ryan: No we are not... Ok... Let me rephrase that... We will not keep those players IF we can find better players. If we can't... If we can't find better players... We will have to keep them.

Pohlad: If we bring in new players... Will they want to play for Ron? Will they come to Minnesota to play for Ron?

Ryan: Yes they will... Except... Well... No they won't... Because Ron has lost a lot of baseball games the past 3 years. But I want to be clear that if we hadn't lost this many games... That these players we are trying to bring in... They would love to play for Ron.

Pohlad: If we were winning games the past three years... would we be looking for new players?

Ryan: No... We wouldn't be.

Pohlad: Ok... the recommendation is stay with Ron for another year because he hasn't lost the clubhouse.

Ryan: Two Years.we're you in the room? Man that's funny

Sconnie
10-02-2013, 07:38 PM
Guess what day it isWednesday?

gil4
10-02-2013, 11:20 PM
I'm disappointed in Gardenhire's rehire for the same reason I am about resigning Pelfrey.

They resigned Pelfrey already? I missed that.

Kwak
10-03-2013, 12:11 AM
The Pohlad's, of course, know that the "the new stadium" effect bought them time in having to realistically address the larger issues, as well as the 2014 All Star game (and the Pohlad's got a significant bump in their net worth while they wait in having to deal with this mess). Until the IRS/Carl Pohlad estate issues are made more clear, they probably are going to continue to limit significant payroll bumps.

You are very PC. I would have posted: "Until hell freezes over, they are going to continue to limit significant payroll bumps."