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gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 11:42 AM
No evidence that Gardenhire has lost his players | 6-4-3 | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/225739481.html)

From the article: "But one thing was pretty clear in the Twins' clubhouse this weekend: The players seem pretty solidly behind their manager. Nobody ever goes on the record with calls for firing the manager, of course, but the current roster seems pretty loyal to Gardenhire. There's no evidence of a whisper campaign against him, no sense that he's lost the clubhouse in the least. If that's true, even amid 291 losses over three seasons, it's pretty remarkable."

Seth Stohs
09-30-2013, 11:53 AM
I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

Badsmerf
09-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Twins media machine at its best! Of course this article would preclude an announced extension for Gardy. I don't mind Gardy coming back. I have a bigger problem with Anderson and Terry Ryan.

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 11:57 AM
After 3 seasons of more than 95 losses each, I really don't CARE if the players want him back. In fact, the players wanting him back is almost an indictment of him as far as I am concerned.

At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect.

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 11:58 AM
After 3 seasons of more than 95 losses each, I really don't CARE if the players want him back. In fact, the players wanting him back is almost an indictment of him as far as I am concerned.

At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect.

What's weird is that just a couple offseasons ago, Gardy was talking about how players were defensive with him...didn't want to hear what he had to say and he even mentioned the players talking about him throwing them under the bus.

Now, magically, they all want him back. What are they supposed to say? What would you expect them to say?

twinsfanstl
09-30-2013, 12:00 PM
And if these were your sons playing high school ball I'd say great! Effort at that level is everything. But at the MLB level, this status quo attitude is heartbreaking. There is no questioning that the organization is antiquated. There is no question the organization is overly conservative. There is no question that the current regime will never deviate from their blueprint which has yielded barely any playoff exposure since his tenure.

LastOnePicked
09-30-2013, 12:10 PM
I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

Seth, I'm just asking, but did you ask or observe the responses of Arcia, Pinto, Florimon or any of the non-white players? Seems like the local boys and the southern guys always get to speak for the entire team. Might be important to hear what the other players think, too.

LastOnePicked
09-30-2013, 12:11 PM
Now, magically, they all want him back. What are they supposed to say? What would you expect them to say?

I'm really questioning if ALL of them are being asked. We might just be hearing from "Gardy's guys."

Boom Boom
09-30-2013, 12:13 PM
Which players? Mauer and Perkins presumably will be here for a while, but who cares what Clete Thomas, Eric Fryer, Darin Mastroianni and Chris Colabello think of Gardy?

Pius Jefferson
09-30-2013, 12:14 PM
Liking the manager is all well and good, but something isn't working right and it's not just the lack of talent. The Twins are one of the worst teams in the areas that don't require All-Star caliber talent to perform at a high level.

Kwak
09-30-2013, 12:19 PM
Of course the players say "we want him back"! Loyalty is HUGE in MLB--especially to those of marginal/dubious ability. The difference of a MLB job ($500K/year) and a AAA job (at best) of maybe $50K/year is more than enough to command loyalty. Loyalty is the major reason Gardenhire would be/is retained. Consider he never really complained that he was handed a nearly useless Active Roster, or that he had to publicly support not only the FO but "key" players that were "deemed to be building blocks" despite player performance that clearly indicated otherwise.

Kobs
09-30-2013, 12:34 PM
I don't want the players back.

rickyriolo
09-30-2013, 12:45 PM
of course the players want Gardy back, they can lose 99,97,96 games a year and strike out all they want to and pitch to a 5+ ERA and guess what??? Every one has a job next year & the year after. Whoopie!!!!

Brock Beauchamp
09-30-2013, 12:47 PM
I don't want the players back.

We have a winner.

zenser
09-30-2013, 12:56 PM
I don't want the players back.

Why not? They are out there battling their tails off every night. Gardy tells us so.

I agree 100%. I don't want them back either.

Winston Smith
09-30-2013, 01:00 PM
I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

If there is no question of the effort and how much they care the only anwser is that some where there is a lot of incompetence. Otherwise why did we lose 99, 96 and 96 games?

StormJH1
09-30-2013, 01:06 PM
Seth, I'm just asking, but did you ask or observe the responses of Arcia, Pinto, Florimon or any of the non-white players? Seems like the local boys and the southern guys always get to speak for the entire team. Might be important to hear what the other players think, too.

Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 01:12 PM
Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

The offers they made to Hunter they knew he wouldn't take...not after ignoring him all offseason prior to 2007 when he wanted an extension and certainly not after the Castillo trade. Those offers were for show.

Having said that, I don't think those decisions were racially motivated.

Linus
09-30-2013, 01:17 PM
If there is no question of the effort and how much they care the only anwser is that some where there is a lot of incompetence. Otherwise why did we lose 99, 96 and 96 games?

Um...because we don't have very good players. With the talent level currently on the roster, it doesn't matter who is managing the team or coaching the pitchers.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 01:18 PM
Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

Well, first, the Twins did extend Santana and Hunter. Everyday Eddie was here forever. As was Hawkins. They traded for and resigned Stewart. But I get your point.

I think there might be something about the Latin American born players and Gardy. Maybe an inability to relate. I'd disagree on the African American players. Besides extending Hunter, when Hunter ripped MLB a few years ago when he was in LAA, the Star Tribune interviewed him and he specifically said that Gardy and the Twins were one of the few teams doing good things for African American players. They were heavily involved in MLB's inner city baseball program, Deron Johnson is one of the few African American draft guru's in baseball.

But if you look at the teams from the Gardy era, there are a lot of minority players. Guzman was an all-star, Rivas stuck around too long for most, Reyes was an extremely successful reclamation project. Silva got a huge FA deal to leave us. etc. So I'm not sure.

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 01:18 PM
Um...because we don't have very good players. With the talent level currently on the roster, it doesn't matter who is managing the team or coaching the pitchers.

Wasn't everyone saying that about the Orioles before Buck showed up and about the Indians before Francona showed up?

chopper0080
09-30-2013, 01:20 PM
It is a bit extreme, but losers stick with losers because if not, they would have a hard time looking in the mirror. Also, I know he is a nice guy, but Joe Mauer not demanding a trade or being vocal about the directon of this franchise says something to me about his leadership. How you could be a superstar player and not do something extreme to be on a competitive team is beyond me.

If the Twins want to get better than they better open their pocketbooks this offseason because they have nothing else to offer free agents. Why would Tanaka want to sign here? Same goes for Lincecum or Josh Johnson?

chopper0080
09-30-2013, 01:23 PM
Wasn't everyone saying that about the Orioles before Buck showed up and about the Indians before Francona showed up?

Agreed though I am not sure it was as much because of the improvement of the manager, but having a new boss generally makes people put forth their best. As a manager you tend to get the best results when your people are uncertain of yor commitment to them. Bringing someone else in would probably only incrementally improved the management of the team, but would have brought a fresh message and kicked the complacency out of this team's butt.

LastOnePicked
09-30-2013, 01:28 PM
Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

Bingo. The Twins are a classic insider's society. Today's decision (what am I saying? this was decided months ago) to retain all staff will provide barriers to the development to those considered cultural outsiders. Expect Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Berrios, et. al. to have great careers -- once they've left the organization.

Linus
09-30-2013, 01:52 PM
Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

I think speculation about this is not good. We have no idea what Gardy believes about this and to casually speculate he has a racial bias is unfair. Its one thing to assert without evidence various baseball issue, quite another to cross over into asserting things about race without a shred of evidence.

Linus
09-30-2013, 01:58 PM
Wasn't everyone saying that about the Orioles before Buck showed up and about the Indians before Francona showed up?

Well, their roster wasn't the same for starters. I'm pretty sure that Buck Showalter or Terry Francona would have won a similar number of games had they been managing the Twins this year.imilar experience if they were managing the Twins this year. We don't have very good players and a different manager is doesn't change that.

USAFChief
09-30-2013, 02:41 PM
I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

I wasn't there Saturday but I question several of those things.

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 02:42 PM
Well, their roster wasn't the same for starters. I'm pretty sure that Buck Showalter or Terry Francona would have won a similar number of games had they been managing the Twins this year.imilar experience if they were managing the Twins this year. We don't have very good players and a different manager is doesn't change that.

What does a manager do, if not make the players better? I mean, if he is not responsible at all for the onfield play, why pay them so much? Why have one at all?

scottz
09-30-2013, 02:54 PM
Yeah, that's just it. I've tiptoed uncomfortably around the race thing before, but it's not just coincidence that the guys up for long-term deals that actually got them were Mauer, Morneau, and some other midlevel deals (Willingham, Doumit, Cuddy, etc.), whereas there's basically no example of the Twins wanting to keep an African-American or Latin player and said player also wanting to sign here long-term. Yes, they offered big money to Hunter and Santana, but there are too many examples like Castillo, Hudson, Liriano, and on and on where it seemed the relationship should have gone better than it did. Then you see some of Gardy's criticism of Hicks' coachability early this year, and the 4-game benching of Sano in the minors, and you worry that there may be bigger cultural problems in the organization.

But the race thing really is speculation/conjecture, and it isn't the most important issue. The problem I have is the framing of the whole question. When you ask a whole team of guys who literally are fringe MLB'ers what they think of their employer in very public setting, I just don't see any value to their response.

I've gone down this thought process myself - I was pretty certain there had to be a racial bias/cultural bias thing with Gardy. But looking at it now, I don't think that is the case. I think the problem is the inability to relate to/get the most out of players who have large egos or personalities.

Now, in some cases those large egos/personalities appeared to outsize their talent (I'm specifically thinking about Valencia). But in other cases, the player's talent seemed to be brought out when their personality was allowed to flourish (here, I'm thinking of Big Papi or Gomez). I don't think race has anything to do with it.

A manager's job is to get the most out of his team. If you can't get the most out of a specific personality type, that's a problem. Especially when one of your 2 top prospects is nicknamed Big Mouth. Buxton, on the other hand, would do absolutely fine with Gardy from a personality standpoint.

Danchat
09-30-2013, 03:07 PM
Twins media machine at its best! Of course this article would preclude an announced extension for Gardy. I don't mind Gardy coming back. I have a bigger problem with Anderson and Terry Ryan.

It's too bad I can only hit the like button once, because I would have hit it 5 times if it were possible.

Ultima Ratio
09-30-2013, 03:19 PM
Seth, I'm just asking, but did you ask or observe the responses of Arcia, Pinto, Florimon or any of the non-white players? Seems like the local boys and the southern guys always get to speak for the entire team. Might be important to hear what the other players think, too.

There's probably a war on women too. Not a-one of them have been drafted, signed or extended -- ever. :p

Linus
09-30-2013, 03:26 PM
What does a manager do, if not make the players better? I mean, if he is not responsible at all for the onfield play, why pay them so much? Why have one at all?

Well, there is a reason that managers get paid far less than the players. For the most part, players decide games. I'm not defending Gardy, per se I'm just saying that this team (as currently constructed) could have the greatest manager in the world and they are not going to win.

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 03:31 PM
Zero accountability for the leadership. One more guaranteed 90+ loss season.

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 03:34 PM
The Cubs have bad players too. There, however, it isn't acceptable to manage over such a debacle.

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 03:37 PM
I see "Minnesota Nice" all over this organization and many of the comments here. People would feel bad about firing somebody (or not re-signing!!!) so they are resistant to hurting feelings. It also means resistance to change and resistance to getting better, in this case.

Other places don't put up with this.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 03:39 PM
The Cubs have bad players too. There, however, it isn't acceptable to manage over such a debacle.

How's that working out for them?

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 03:43 PM
How's that working out for them?

Not so well for their manager, who was fired after only two seasons of the team's futility.

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 03:46 PM
I was interested to see how Gardy's pay compares to other managers, only to be surprised that manager pay is not public......

NFL salaries: on line
NBA salaries: mostly on line
NHL salaries: moslty no on line

Interesting.....

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 03:57 PM
Reusse: How bad are these Twins if they really didn't quit on Gardenhire? | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/225842921.html)

'nuff said about why I don't care if the players want the manager back but I'll leave you with one quote:

"In Minnesota, where a culture has surfaced that the players seem to fill out permission slips to be in the lineup, the message was: “Take the day off, kid. Games in September (or August or July) don’t mean anything around here.”

...

"This actually began in 2010, when Twins started missing time with sore cuticles, but there still were enough “gamers” and enough starting pitchers to win 94 games and a sixth AL Central title.

Media types who were close to Michael Cuddyer insist that his decision to leave Minnesota and head to Colorado after the 2011 season had as much to do with disgust over the privileged attitude that he perceived to have taken over the Twins’ clubhouse as the extra millions offered by the Rockies."

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 04:00 PM
How's that working out for them?

They just fired the manager, so I guess we have to wait and see. They have some better pitching in place at the moment.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 04:13 PM
They just fired the manager, so I guess we have to wait and see. They have some better pitching in place at the moment.

So firing Quade didn't help? Did they fire Pinella before that or did he resign?

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 04:25 PM
So firing Quade didn't help? Did they fire Pinella before that or did he resign?
You can probably find plenty of examples of a team as bad as the Twins not improving with a new manager. You can probably find examples of teams that did improve, too.

What you can't find is a single example of another team as bad as the Twins have been the past 3 seasons getting either better or worse after it retains its manager for another season in the past 30 years.

Because nobody else has.

Which should tell you pretty much everything you need to know about the wisdom of bringing Gardenhire back.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 04:30 PM
You can probably find plenty of examples of a team as bad as the Twins not improving with a new manager. You can probably find examples of teams that did improve, too.

What you can't find is a single example of another team as bad as the Twins have been the past 3 seasons getting either better or worse after it retains its manager for another season in the past 30 years.

Because nobody else has.

Which should tell you pretty much everything you need to know about the wisdom of bringing Gardenhire back.

Not really. While you can find plenty of managers getting the axe after three bad seasons, it's rarer to find one who got axed in Gardy's position - ie, after having a long run of success with that same team and with the same GM in place that hired him.

howieramone
09-30-2013, 04:31 PM
I see "Minnesota Nice" all over this organization and many of the comments here. People would feel bad about firing somebody (or not re-signing!!!) so they are resistant to hurting feelings. It also means resistance to change and resistance to getting better, in this case.

Other places don't put up with this.Why are you stereotyping and insulting all Minnesotans? Could there possibly be another explanation, such as you're opinion is wrong?

diehardtwinsfan
09-30-2013, 04:36 PM
I guess I should eat some crow. I thought Gardy was as good as gone, and I honestly think he should be gone. I fail to see how he's the right guy to work with these rookies as they come up. He's way too impatient with them and will play his favorites. I don't like this at all.

John Bonnes
09-30-2013, 04:40 PM
Why are you stereotyping and insulting all Minnesotans? Could there possibly be another explanation, such as you're opinion is wrong?

This is a vast over-generalization of what Shane Wahl said. Please don't do that. If you can't help but read his post that way, you might want to add him to your "ignore" list.

And Shane, I think it's possible that retaining Gardenhire isn't an act of pity or niceness, but instead is because the team thinks he's a good manager that has had bad teams. I think we can agree that isn't a wholly crazy viewpoint.

old nurse
09-30-2013, 04:42 PM
After 3 seasons of more than 95 losses each, I really don't CARE if the players want him back. In fact, the players wanting him back is almost an indictment of him as far as I am concerned.

At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect.

The best boss I ever had did not put fear into anyone. Whatever he asked out of people he got. If someone did bad, they felt worse that they let him down. He wasn't a buddy to anyone. Had a supervisor that ruled with terror. People did the minimum and started to look for new work.

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 04:45 PM
Why are you stereotyping and insulting all Minnesotans? Could there possibly be another explanation, such as you're opinion is wrong?

"All over this organization" and "many of the comments" comes nowhere near "all Minnesotans." Not even remotely close.

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 04:53 PM
This is a vast over-generalization of what Shane Wahl said. Please don't do that. If you can't help but read his post that way, you might want to add him to your "ignore" list.

And Shane, I think it's possible that retaining Gardenhire isn't an act of pity or niceness, but instead is because the team thinks he's a good manager that has had bad teams. I think we can agree that isn't a wholly crazy viewpoint.

John, with regard to within the organization, it isn't reducible to being nice, but given the tendency to keep promoting from within and retaining people instead of going outside the organization, there just seems like there is something a bit off with how employees (who fail) are viewed.

As far as some comments being made, I think a lot of it has to do with "being nice"--there is no such kind of shrug-it-off-and-keep-the-guy mentality even in Indiana about various sports teams across levels (except for maybe Gene Keady in the last years of his tenure).

I have a hard time believing many straight-faced attempts to label Ron Gardenhire a "good manager" these days. This place is full of criticisms of Gardy for in game decisions, each game. The Twins were as good as the Toronto Blue Jays during the successful seasons under Gardenhire--they just happened to play in the worst or second worst division in baseball in each or almost each of those seasons. Without those division titles what would the "good manager" discussion be like?

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 05:07 PM
Not really. While you can find plenty of managers getting the axe after three bad seasons, it's rarer to find one who got axed in Gardy's position - ie, after having a long run of success with that same team and with the same GM in place that hired him.
Maybe I'm missing something. I'm saying that while you may feel it's rare for a manager with Gardy's overall record to be fired, it's not the case. No other organization would bring him back after three seasons like this. Thirty years of evidence makes that pretty clear.

darin617
09-30-2013, 05:20 PM
No evidence that Gardenhire has lost his players | 6-4-3 | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/225739481.html)

From the article: "But one thing was pretty clear in the Twins' clubhouse this weekend: The players seem pretty solidly behind their manager. Nobody ever goes on the record with calls for firing the manager, of course, but the current roster seems pretty loyal to Gardenhire. There's no evidence of a whisper campaign against him, no sense that he's lost the clubhouse in the least. If that's true, even amid 291 losses over three seasons, it's pretty remarkable."

Why should anyone care what these players want. How many of the players on the team deserve to be here? I guess they feel comfortable with Gardy, or losers just like to stick together. Too bad Mauer didn't ask for an early opt out in his contract.

mnfireman
09-30-2013, 05:39 PM
Regardless of anybody's thoughts or feelings on Gardy's extension, its there. Now if Ryan and the Pohlads are committed to winning with Gardy they need to do a couple things:
1 - Implement a plan. Commit to either a full rebuild or make it impossible for the big free agent names to say no.
2 - Hold the coaches more accountable. Times have changed, power pitching and power hitting are more a part of the game, i.e. the teams that win have both. Teams still have to advance runners, induce groundballs, hit the cut off, do the little things to win, but also need the extra base hits and strikeouts. Either the coaches can coach this or they can go away.
3 - Quit mismanaging players. Hicks should have been demoted long before he was so he had a chance to get his head on right and maybe earn a September call-up. Gibson should have been up long before he approached his innings limit and arm got tired. Arcia should not have been shuttled back and forth. Hernandez and Walters should never have started a game for the big league club. I am sure there are many more examples, these were just fairly obvious.

The examples stated above have been mismanaged for years, so it may not be easy, but needs to be done.

Kwak
09-30-2013, 05:45 PM
Why should anyone care what these players want. How many of the players on the team deserve to be here? I guess they feel comfortable with Gardy, or losers just like to stick together. Too bad Mauer didn't ask for an early opt out in his contract.

I have a few "thoughts" about "opt out"/trade request. A) Mauer would never "opt-out" unless he wants to retire from playing--that would be STUPID; B) trade request? The Pohlads did more than just "pay him and give him a "no-trade" clause, they "helped" him obtain the car dealership which provides him a "higher level" in the Twin Cities community; C) Mauer may have "plans" after baseball (IDK) but it's quite reasonable to think so; leaving the team may "interfere" with said plans; D) I also think that a public statement showing non-support of management might be construed (a clause in the contract?) as a trade request.

Pius Jefferson
09-30-2013, 05:49 PM
I'd throw in his wife just had twin daughters and both families live in the Twin Cities.

Also, why is it that some players are called loyal for wanting to stick with a team during bad times but others who aren't pounding down the door asking for a trade don't care about winning?

Monkeypaws
09-30-2013, 05:58 PM
JB Iowa said: "At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect."

I'll disagree - a couple of my favorite managers keep a loose clubhouse: Maddon and Francona. I have no use for iron asses like Bobby Valentine. Lack of talent is the #1 problem.

Thrylos
09-30-2013, 06:02 PM
The current roster loves Gardy and his pals and Terry, because in other teams they would be collecting AAA paychecks and not the $400K minimum MLB salary.

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 06:35 PM
I'll disagree - a couple of my favorite managers keep a loose clubhouse: Maddon and Francona. I have no use for iron asses like Bobby Valentine. Lack of talent is the #1 problem.

Yes, there's a lack of talent but there's also a real question as to whether his management style is still working.

Until I read Reusse's column today, I had no idea that Cuddyer had apparently raised issues about a "privileged" attitude that had seemingly taken over in the clubhouse but I've been commenting on it for several years. While others may say that it dates to the end of the 2010 season which, despite an appearance in the playoffs, ended in a shambles (2-8 in last 10 games plus 3 straight playoff losses), the thing that crystallized it for me was the handling of Mauer's rehab in 2011. The fact that he was not required to do even a short stint in Rochester but was allowed to do all of his rehab in Florida and Minnesota, indicated to me that the team was going to have a problem. He may be the $184 million man but that was why he needed to be a leader and do what would have been expected of other players. (Plus, it would have been a nice dog bone thrown to Rochester which was in the midst of a horrific season and due for negotiations over whether they would remain the Twins' AAA affiliate).

I normally like a manager who keeps a loose clubhouse as well but when you have situation that has degenerated into the "country club" atmosphere that seems to prevail with the Twins, you need someone who will put a stop to it and turn it around. Realistically, that person may be a short-term manager (just like corporate reorganizers are often interim-types) but once they "do the dirty" of ending the privilege, his successor may well be able to be a little more relaxed.

The problem with the Twins is that there isn't anyone to change the privileged culture that has seemingly developed.

TheLeviathan
09-30-2013, 07:18 PM
Overall I think firing or not firing Gardy is a non-factor to the teams success. My bigger issue is how good ol boy, insulated, and resistant to new ideas/methods the organization is as a whole.

Monkeypaws
09-30-2013, 09:24 PM
JB, you've thought longer and harder about this than me, so I'll tip my hat to ya.

Truth is, I like Gardy - I question his judgement sometimes, but I would have been happy to see Jack Morris replace Anderson as pitching coach.

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 09:32 PM
JB, you've thought longer and harder about this than me, so I'll tip my hat to ya.

Truth is, I like Gardy - I question his judgement sometimes, but I would have been happy to see Jack Morris replace Anderson as pitching coach.

Thank you. I really don't hate Gardenhire. I've wanted him to leave on his own since about August last year. I think he could again be successful somewhere else. And I think the Twins need a new perspective. I really hoped he would take a different manager's job elsewhere because I thought it would be win-win for both the team and him. But he seems stubborn to me. Maybe it will work and he'll again have success with the Twins but there's a greater likelihood that 2014 and 2015 will be two more really long seasons. (I also worry about his health but that's another question altogether).

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 09:48 PM
And Shane, I think it's possible that retaining Gardenhire isn't an act of pity or niceness, but instead is because the team thinks he's a good manager that has had bad teams. I think we can agree that isn't a wholly crazy viewpoint.
If that's the Twins' viewpoint, it's... well, at least a little crazy, going by how incredibly rare it is for a manager to amass nearly 300 losses in three years and keep his job, and the fact that those rare instances have mostly produced 100 or so losses and an in-season manager change the following year.

darin617
09-30-2013, 10:42 PM
The current roster loves Gardy and his pals and Terry, because in other teams they would be collecting AAA paychecks and not the $400K minimum MLB salary.

I took long enough but Thrylos finally wrote something that I can completely agree with. Actually quite a few of them would be in Independent Leagues.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 06:49 AM
I would be infuriated if the powers that be put any real consideration into "what the players want" when deciding on Gardenhire.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 06:57 AM
I was in there on Saturday, and there's no question that the players want to play for and want to win with Gardenhire. There's no questioning the effort of the coaches and manager. There's no questioning how much everyone cares. There's no questioning the effort of the players.

It's absolutely fair to question "the effort" and "how much everyone cares." This goes beyond hustling to first base.

Brock Beauchamp
10-01-2013, 07:11 AM
I would be infuriated if the powers that be put any real consideration into "what the players want" when deciding on Gardenhire.

I wouldn't. I don't think the players' feelings should be the deciding factor but it should certainly be factored into the decision.

More than any other sport, clubhouse attitude and morale plays a role in baseball. These guys live together nearly full-time for seven months of the year. They deserve to be heard when it comes to whether they like their boss or not and whether he should be fired.

DJL44
10-01-2013, 07:22 AM
I think the problem is the inability to relate to/get the most out of players who have large egos or personalities.

This is a problem. Many, many talented professional athletes have large egos. If he can't handle players with a big ego then he's in the wrong line of work.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 07:56 AM
I wouldn't. I don't think the players' feelings should be the deciding factor but it should certainly be factored into the decision.

More than any other sport, clubhouse attitude and morale plays a role in baseball. These guys live together nearly full-time for seven months of the year. They deserve to be heard when it comes to whether they like their boss or not and whether he should be fired.

With the exception of a very small few, these "players" will not be a part of the Twins future if they ever intend to win 70 or more games again. As others have noted, I have no doubt many respect Ron Gardenhire and the opportunity he's provided them. Heck, they might respect him because he's a genuinely good guy. But so what? Is that what's under dispute?

The "clubhouse attitude and morale" is at the bottom of the Twins' concerns. If it was bad, then that was to be expected, and if it was good, then there are larger questions to be answered.

Regardless, I reject the notion that baseball players are entitled to a voice on their manager because they showed up for work.