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Parker Hageman
09-30-2013, 10:42 AM
We will know more at 2:30 today but according to FoxSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal, he and Jon Morosi have been told that the Twins will retain manager Ron Gardenhire (https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/384704015826968576), saying that the deal they have heard is a two-year contract.

The Star Tribune's Lavelle E Neal (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/225798911.html) adds that his sources say that the entire coaching staff will return for the 2014 season.

Seth Stohs
09-30-2013, 10:49 AM
Via Twitter, Fox Sports' Ken Rosenthal said that sources have told him that Ron Gardenhire will return on a two-year deal.

Of course, this is not official, but Rosenthal has great sources and doesn't post things unless certain.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 10:55 AM
I think that's a good deal. This'll probably be his last contract with the team. I think Dougie Baseball takes over in 2016 with that young core intact.

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 10:56 AM
Well those of us that think a change is needed can for the time being take solice in the fact that no mention of an Anderson extension has been announced.

Anderson is a good man and has been a good soldier but I don't think the front office can overlook the success of Cuellar's bullpen compared to the utter mess of Anderson's rotation over the past three or four years. Someone has to take the fall for the failure of the starters and if Ryan isn't going to take most of the blame and step down, Anderson likely will take the bullet.

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 10:58 AM
Via Twitter, Fox Sports' Ken Rosenthal said that sources have told him that Ron Gardenhire will return on a two-year deal.

Of course, this is not official, but Rosenthal has great sources and doesn't post things unless certain.

So status quo and in a couple years we can keep the Twins way going by promoting from within...SWEET!

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 10:59 AM
Three 96+ loss seasons in a row weren't enough.

ScottyB
09-30-2013, 10:59 AM
I would guess that there will be another shake-up in the coaching staff. I could see Anderson out, Cuellar in as new pitching coach. I can also see Ulger and possibly Vavra out. Who would replace those three is the question.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 11:03 AM
Man, there is no way this thread doesn't blow up.

ScottyB
09-30-2013, 11:07 AM
Bernadino tweets all coaches retained.

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 11:16 AM
Bernadino tweets all coaches retained.

Yeah, this is discouraging.

Of note from Rosenthal, he states Gardy likely wanted assurances that payroll would be raised. If true, raised from what? What it is now or from the start of the season?

Anyone think that if Ryan keeps the band together AND the Twins once again are terrible in 2014 his job will finally be on the line?

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 11:18 AM
Bernadino tweets all coaches retained.

Because they did the little things right? Because the young players got better the more they worked with these coaches? Because it wasn't their fault, the FO didn't give them enough good players to work with (who in the FO will be replaced then?)?

Where is there any sense of accountability, three years into being one of the worst teams in sports?

InfraRen
09-30-2013, 11:18 AM
Not nearly as upset about Gardy as I am about Rick.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 11:19 AM
Anyone think that if Ryan keeps the band together AND the Twins once again are terrible in 2014 his job will finally be on the line?

No. I think the Pohlad's have complete trust in Ryan and probably expect another losing season. If Buxton and Sano and Meyer etc bomb out in the minors next season, maybe. But other than that, no, the Pohlad's are letting Ryan run this.

S.
09-30-2013, 11:19 AM
Bernadino tweets all coaches retained.
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/kid_freak_out.gif

SpiritofVodkaDave
09-30-2013, 11:21 AM
I like it, it wasn't Gardy's fault and the players do like him.

howieramone
09-30-2013, 11:23 AM
Yeah, this is discouraging.

Of note from Rosenthal, he states Gardy likely wanted assurances that payroll would be raised. If true, raised from what? What it is now or from the start of the season?

Anyone think that if Ryan keeps the band together AND the Twins once again are terrible in 2014 his job will finally be on the line?Not unless TD buys the Twins.:)

Oldgoat_MN
09-30-2013, 11:26 AM
Not nearly as upset about Gardy as I am about Rick.

Exactly. Just.... exactly.

Death Rattle
09-30-2013, 11:28 AM
Just do whatever you want. Sign crappy free agent, have 3 90+ loss seasons, slash payroll, crap on your fan base.

Just do whatever you want...Twins Baseball.

Death Rattle
09-30-2013, 11:29 AM
Funny how the Cubs fire Sveum...WHAT?!?! Accountability from a losing franchise punishing a manager for poor on field results. The Cubs are revolutionizing baseball.

Twins Daily Admin
09-30-2013, 11:29 AM
Ultimately, I look at the two most quotes reasons to fire Gardy and dismiss them:
1) It's hard to look at the results of this team this year and lay them at Gardy's feet. We entered the season. We entered the season thinking this was a 65-70 win team, and they were, and that lies on the head of Terry Ryan more than anyone. He didn't do what needed to be done to improve the team by signing free agent pitching and that was the primary source of problems.

2) The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing? The only decision that he ever made in the playoffs that I remember vehemently disagreeing with was letting Nathan go back out in the 12th(?) inning in Game 2 of 2004(?). That's it. I"m as upset about those playoff years as anyone, but I don't see why they should be laid at Gardy's feet anymore than they should be laid at the feet of Ryan or the players or the umpires or the MLB schedulers.

I know there are some traits that people don't like about Gardy, but it's hard to overlook seven different Manager of the Year votes in a nine-year span. I think we have a good one. It might be a good one that has overstayed his usefullness, but this year's assortment of dreck wasn't going to test that one way or the other. I'll give it at least one more year.

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 11:31 AM
admin, so no one is accountable?

BHtwins
09-30-2013, 11:33 AM
The Pohlads are absolutely delusional.

They might win again but just like I said when they were winning all those divisions. They were winning despite of Gardenhire, not because of him.

There is absolutely no risk of doing a poor job and no accountability. We talk about player scholarship...its clear we have front office and coaching scholarships.

USAFChief
09-30-2013, 11:36 AM
I'm surprised and very disappointed by this news. Very disappointed.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 11:37 AM
admin, so no one is accountable?

Well, since Ryan took over, I believe he made changes in the minor league coaching staffs, fired 4 or so ML coaches. Promoted Steil to minor league development guru.

I know you want Ryan out but ownership is behind him 100% (which I think is a good thing). And it's good that Ryan doesn't have to do risky job security type moves (fire the manager to get another year or trade a top prospect to get wins now).

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 11:39 AM
admin, so no one is accountable?

oh, come on now, we fired the bullpen and 1B coach last year...2011 and 2012, totally on them...oh, and injuries of course...as Ryan pointed out in the Q&A :-)

Oldgoat_MN
09-30-2013, 11:42 AM
... Manager... I think we have a good one. It might be a good one that has overstayed his usefulness, but this year's assortment of dreck wasn't going to test that one way or the other....

To be fair, I believe most of the posters here see that Gardy has done some things well. The frustration we have all shared leads sometimes to the idea that changing things up couldn't be all bad.

You can want a change and not hate, or even dislike, Gardy.
It is one of the options.

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 11:55 AM
Ultimately, I look at the two most quotes reasons to fire Gardy and dismiss them:
1) It's hard to look at the results of this team this year and lay them at Gardy's feet. We entered the season. We entered the season thinking this was a 65-70 win team, and they were, and that lies on the head of Terry Ryan more than anyone. He didn't do what needed to be done to improve the team by signing free agent pitching and that was the primary source of problems.

2) The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing? The only decision that he ever made in the playoffs that I remember vehemently disagreeing with was letting Nathan go back out in the 12th(?) inning in Game 2 of 2004(?). That's it. I"m as upset about those playoff years as anyone, but I don't see why they should be laid at Gardy's feet anymore than they should be laid at the feet of Ryan or the players or the umpires or the MLB schedulers.

I know there are some traits that people don't like about Gardy, but it's hard to overlook seven different Manager of the Year votes in a nine-year span. I think we have a good one. It might be a good one that has overstayed his usefullness, but this year's assortment of dreck wasn't going to test that one way or the other. I'll give it at least one more year.

How can you defend Gardy by listing his Manager of the Year near misses but previously state that managers have no impact on playoff performances?

I also really don't think your two listed reasons for wanting Gardy gone are the most prelevant reasons. I think most people on this site acknowledge Gardy isn't the most culpable person when it comes to this team's failures. I think most people agree he had no chance at winning with what he was given. I think those of us who want a change, want a change because a new atmosphere seems manditory to right the ship. It's going to be hard to expect different results when so many of the variables remain the same.

I'm actually torn on the Gardy issue. I want change; mostly I want this team to prove to me that they are willing to try new things and ideas from the sport that is not entirely encompassed within the Twins' world. But I also think the stubborn refusal to step outside the comfort zone comes from the front office and I really don't want them to make the manager the scape goat when the problems stem from deeper within the organization.

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 11:57 AM
To be fair, I believe most of the posters here see that Gardy has done some things well. The frustration we have all shared leads sometimes to the idea that changing things up couldn't be all bad.

You can want a change and not hate, or even dislike, Gardy.
It is one of the options.

Well stated, and much more concisely than I did. :)

spideyo
09-30-2013, 12:02 PM
Who do we hold accountable for blowing away the team strikeout record? Hicks and Arcia could have been ROY candidates if they had actually connected with the ball more often. Plouffe, Willingham, and Parmelee regressed noticably. Collabello was ROY in the international league, but looked lost up here.

How much of that is on Bruno? Isn't it his job to help young players adjust and get the whole team prepared to face major league pitching? Even if Ryan spends $200 million on a rotation full of aces, we won't win if we keep staring at strike three

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 12:06 PM
Rhett Bollinger just posted an article saying the same thing on the Twins MLB website...

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 12:07 PM
Come on. No one is actually surprised Gardy wasn't fired by Ryan, are they?

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 12:12 PM
Come on. No one is actually surprised Gardy wasn't fired by Ryan, are they?

Not surprised. I've been hoping since August 2012 that Gardenhire would see the light and go to a different team. That he really did care about the well-being of the franchise and could acknowledge that a change would be best for the team.

AND, as Tom Powers wrote this weekend, that a different opportunity would be the best thing for him, too.

S.
09-30-2013, 12:19 PM
Not surprised, but that's certainly not stopping me from being pissed off about it.

I've said it before, but we're completely stagnant at this point. So much failure, so many problems, and we dont change a damn thing. Coaching staff stays the same. FA approach stays the same. Terrible pitching mentality stays the same. Awful team stays the same.

I've watched/listened to probably 120+ games each of the last three seasons, but unless we make some big changes this offseason, I can't really say I see much point to doing the same in 2014 when I could just watch games that my fantasy players are playing in and actually have the opportunity to see some decent baseball occasionally.

Kobs
09-30-2013, 12:24 PM
Ultimately, I look at the two most quotes reasons to fire Gardy and dismiss them:
1) It's hard to look at the results of this team this year and lay them at Gardy's feet. We entered the season. We entered the season thinking this was a 65-70 win team, and they were, and that lies on the head of Terry Ryan more than anyone. He didn't do what needed to be done to improve the team by signing free agent pitching and that was the primary source of problems.

2) The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing? The only decision that he ever made in the playoffs that I remember vehemently disagreeing with was letting Nathan go back out in the 12th(?) inning in Game 2 of 2004(?). That's it. I"m as upset about those playoff years as anyone, but I don't see why they should be laid at Gardy's feet anymore than they should be laid at the feet of Ryan or the players or the umpires or the MLB schedulers.

I know there are some traits that people don't like about Gardy, but it's hard to overlook seven different Manager of the Year votes in a nine-year span. I think we have a good one. It might be a good one that has overstayed his usefullness, but this year's assortment of dreck wasn't going to test that one way or the other. I'll give it at least one more year.

Despite only having numbers from 2007, I can pretty confidently say that Garden hire is one of the ten highest paid managers in baseball. If one is going to argue that managers don't impact the game, how silly is it to be allocating what is likely the highest percentage of your payroll to that role in the league?

rickyriolo
09-30-2013, 12:25 PM
The Twins will be terrible for at least 2 more years anyway. So after 2 more 90+ losing seasons in 2014 & 2015, Gardy will be kicked upstairs and they replace him with Dougie baseball. All part of the plan

FanFanatic
09-30-2013, 12:26 PM
Actually, I'm not surprised by the offer of a new contract for Gardy. I expected it actually. I believe when the entire story is told, that Gardy probably demanded that his coaching staff be retained as part of the deal. Gardy has shown loyalty to his staff, his players, and the organization. As to whether this is the best move...well that will give us plenty to discuss over the next year. I'm OK with this result, although I would have preferred an Anderson retirement. I guess I'm a little sick of "pitch to contact" as the guiding principle of our staff.

pierre75275
09-30-2013, 12:36 PM
Gardy....ok fine. But Rick Anderson really needs a new line of work. I remember reading a article on Glen Perkins and he was asked what the worst advice he was ever given was. He said rick anderson told him to throw his change up more

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-30-2013, 12:45 PM
Come on give Gardenhire some credit for those years and maybe he can win with an established lineup. But where are we now?



2) The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing? The only decision that he ever made in the playoffs that I remember vehemently disagreeing with was letting Nathan go back out in the 12th(?) inning in Game 2 of 2004(?). That's it.

2004 playoffs? This is what caught my eye about your post. How about running Silva out for game three instead of veteran Mulholland -- Silva never had a chance. There are surely other mistakes but my memory stretches. He did abuse his bullpen throughout 2008-2010 seasons which perhaps contributed to the failure of those post-seasons.

Gardenhire is not an X's and O's manager -- he admits he shoots from the hip. Couple things in particular: he doesn't know how to use a pinch runner or make substitutions (defense defense defense!) in late innings.

He has always constantly shuffled the lineup -- opposite of Tom Kelly.

He is an intense competitor -- opposite of Tom Kelly's "not too high, not too low" approach.

He no longer has the ear of the clubhouse, hard to get that back once you've lost it. Of course he's likable, I'd probably like playing for him, but what else are the players going to say?

He can't pull a team out of a losing streak.

Yet he plays favorites and names names.

There is zero evidence he has the patience to develop young talent.

"I don't know how many times we can beat it into these guys heads" seems to be his favorite expression.

The next prospects are always just beyond the horizon. Like Hicks and Gibson were last year. Valencia/Plouffe/Revere before that. Neither Buxton or Sano or Rosario pitch. We need to get Diamond and Gibson figured out before we send Meyer and May to the same fate.

"There's always next year." What year would it have been good to make a change at skipper? This year? Last year? Never?

I write this hoping that the reports are wrong and that Ryan has offered Gardenhire a contract he can't refuse/accept, in other words, letting Gardenhire turn down the offer, so that we can finally move forward again. If Gardenhire was no longer managing here next year, we all agree that he'd be fine, and find another job, right?

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 12:54 PM
"We haven't had the success we've been looking for," Ryan said. "No one is passing the buck other than that we know where we're at and we know where we want to get. And unfortunately, we're just not there.


"But we're closer than people believe. But it's tough to explain that in September when we're 25 games behind the Detroit Tigers."

StormJH1
09-30-2013, 12:57 PM
I could ramble quite a bit on this, so I'll try and state my opinion once and be concise:

I kind of agree with the "Gleeman position" on Gardy and managers in general, which is that they aren't nearly as important as the talent on the field. Despite all logic telling me that a manager (or at least a freaking pitching coach) should get fired after 3 terrible seasons, I can't say that 2013 was Gardy's fault, so I can't really say he should be fired.

BUT...if neither Gardy or Anderson is held accountable for the on-field product, and the front office seems so secure in their jobs and their freedom to continue with the way they do business (which includes no indication of any desire to explore expensive free agents as at least a partial solution to the on-field ineptitude)...then how is this a tenable situation going forward?

I'm more angry at the front office than Gardy because I can't even imagine an alternative approach that Gardy could have taken to get this team to 80 wins this year. On the other hand, there are a number of ways this front office could have changed in the past, or going forward, that could have resulted in a better product, and they just refuse to do it because they know their way is right.

There is a culture of losing brewing on this team, and it will only become more entrenched the longer all of the actors involved feel free to pursue "business as usual". At the end of the day, "fault" isn't the only thing that matters. You have to do something to enact change before you are entitled to receive it.

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 01:03 PM
There is a culture of losing brewing on this team, and it will only become more entrenched the longer all of the actors involved feel free to pursue "business as usual". At the end of the day, "fault" isn't the only thing that matters. You have to do something to enact change before you are entitled to receive it.

Very well stated. I think this is where so many of us are at. We may not be big Gardenhire lovers but we aren't haters either. But it is simply mind-boggling that no changes are being made in the field staff of the major league club.

LastOnePicked
09-30-2013, 01:09 PM
The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing?

Can I ask for a moratorium on this strawman argument.? We aren't just saying that Gardy hasn't won in the playoffs, it's that the team didn't even appear competitive in the playoffs. We did not expect a World Series title; we expected the team to give the competition a run for their money, rather than turn themselves into an "E-Z Pass." If that isn't Gardy's responsibility, then I have no idea why teams even keep a manager on staff during the postseason.

chopper0080
09-30-2013, 01:11 PM
What a joke and an insult to the fans. Removing Gardy was less about Gardy as a manager and more about holding individuals in the organization responsible for not doing their jobs well. Whether Gardy had the talent to win or not should have been irrealevant. The message that this sends across the organization is a total joke. It's either "Our GM has done a crappy job getting talent on this roster so Gardy gets a pass" OR "Gardy was good years ago and we are comfortable with him so the actual wins and losses don't matter." Neither of those messages are good for an organization. Hopefully local fans respond with the appropriate decrease in ticket purchases.

Twins Daily Admin
09-30-2013, 01:41 PM
Very well stated. I think this is where so many of us are at. We may not be big Gardenhire lovers but we aren't haters either. But it is simply mind-boggling that no changes are being made in the field staff of the major league club.

I'm not picking on you with this response, but it seems indicative of many of the threads. To sort of combine them, the argument seems to be "Well, they have to do SOMETHING, so let's try this."

I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

John Bonnes
09-30-2013, 01:43 PM
I'm not picking on you with this response, but it seems indicative of many of the threads. To sort of combine them, the argument seems to be "Well, they have to do SOMETHING, so let's try this."

I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

Sorry guys, this is me. I was under the wrong ID doing some stuff on the site and responded before I put it under mine.

S.
09-30-2013, 01:45 PM
But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?
The problem (for me) is that it's not a step in any direction if we retain him. It's staying in the same place we've been in. I'd rather we risk taking a step that has the potential to be in the right direction than just standing in place and twiddling our thumbs and hoping if we twiddle hard enough it'll somehow move us in the right direction.

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 01:45 PM
I am not a Gardy believer, never have been. so, it isn't about "change for random moves' sake" to me.

Also, there is plenty of organizational research (and specifically in the NFL, not sure about MLB) that indicates after a time, leadership changes are important and needed.

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 01:50 PM
I am not a Gardy believer, never have been. so, it isn't about "change for random moves' sake" to me.

Also, there is plenty of organizational research (and specifically in the NFL, not sure about MLB) that indicates after a time, leadership changes are important and needed.

I've wanted him gone since around August 2007...I guess I'll be waiting even longer.

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 01:52 PM
I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

There is a difference between Gardenhire being a good manager for ANY team and a good manager for THIS team.

There are times when a leader becomes ineffective in a particular situation. It is part of the reason for things like term limits and moving ministers after a certain number of years, etc. And frankly, the players' comments as reported elsewhere make me VERY concerned that they are all just too complacent and unwilling to change.

That DOESN'T mean that same person can't go into a different situation and be a very effective leader elsewhere.

All situations are not the same -- and after more than 10 years in the same situation, many leaders become stale.

This franchise is stuck in a rut. They need someone to get out and try pushing the car in a different direction -- or at the very least, throw down some new gravel. That isn't likely when they all enjoy being in each other's company so much that they just want to stay in the car.

John Bonnes
09-30-2013, 02:12 PM
The Twins just sent this out....

Twins agree to contract extension with Gardenhire

The Minnesota Twins announced today that they have agreed with Manager Ron Gardenhire to a two-year contract extension, through the 2015 season.

Gardenhire, 55, was named manager of the Twins on January 4, 2002. He has a career record of 998-947 (.513) as a major league manager, and trails only Tom Kelly on the Twins All-Time win list (1,140). Gardenhire earned the American League Manager of the Year award in 2010 and was named by fellow Managers as The Sporting News Manager of the Year that season.

In addition, the Twins coaching staff will be invited back for the 2104 season.

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 02:14 PM
Well, there goes part of what I hoped would happen......let's hope they add some good players.....

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 02:24 PM
Not too surprising that he'll be back, given the team's strong finish and the way they rallied around Gardy to get him his 1000th win...

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 02:30 PM
I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

I think this is what many disagree with. No one wants to blindly make a knee-jerk decision but there is plenty of recent precedent for just such manuevers. Just to name a few among many, the Orioles, A's and Indians replaced just as blameless managers who seemingly had little talent to work with. These teams immediately showed more fire and won more games under new leadership. The fact that we can't exactly pinpoint the reason for the turnaround would be a fair discussion, but it's fact that these teams performed better with a new voice in the clubhouse. Just because the variables are intangible doesn't mean there isn't a reason it has worked.

On the other side of the coin, the most recent managers that I can think of that had a string of three straight awful season and eventually righted the ship was Bruce Bochy eight years ago when he was in San Diego and of course TK well over a decade ago.

In short, there are plenty of instances of a new manager getting a club back on track and very few where the existing manager was able to do it. There may be little explanation but it isn't as blind of a move as you imply.

BabyJesusBuxton
09-30-2013, 02:32 PM
Honestly, after the offseason moves made by TR I was pretty confident that Gardy would be back for at least another year. His track record is pretty impressive when looking at the rosters he was working with. I don't think the downfall is Gardy's fault as much as it is due to the organization emptying the cupboards during the Bill Smith years and then reverting back to building through the system instead of free agency which obviously was Smith's intent before he was replaced.

Gardy's playoff record is pretty terrible but I think he has minimal impact on those outcomes. A manager can definitely make poor decisions and cost a game by waiting too long to pull a pitcher, not bunting to advance runners, etc. but ultimately playoff success is on the players performing in October and the team roster (Front Office).

I'm going to be honest, the past 3 seasons have been BRUTAL, especially as a season ticket holder. With that said, I like what Terry Ryan is trying to do. He has stated that his plan isn't to try and have a "competitive" club every year, but rather to win World Series every year. Sure we could have gone out and spent another 20-30 million last offseason but with all the holes we have seen this year does anyone actually think that would have bought us a World series ring this year? I'm guessing 20 million in players maybe gets us to 75-80 wins at best. I don't mind him trying to give Gardy one last shot when some of the reinforcements graduate to the majors.

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 02:37 PM
Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 02:47 PM
Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

It's easy to have Smith as the scapegoat...he's not in charge anymore.

gunnarthor
09-30-2013, 02:49 PM
Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

No, this isn't on Smith. Smith took over and built toward that 2010 team. The 08-09 teams saw a bunch of younger players come up and get playing time. Not all his moves worked but he certainly had a plan. Giving up Garza, Ramos and Bartlett and the unfortunately small actual return for Santana didn't help, of course.

The problem was many things but I think it's really two things - the 04-07 drafts were underwhelming and/or took a long time to develop. And then Delmon Young and Francisco Liriano failed to continue to develop as hoped/expected. But I think the drafting problems are mostly cyclical (although in 08 Deron Johnson was put in charge of it) - the Twins won't get a Buxton like talent unless they are at the top of the draft.

drivlikejehu
09-30-2013, 02:57 PM
I just don't care. Who manages the Twins for the next couple years doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

Ultima Ratio
09-30-2013, 03:01 PM
Don't really care about the 2-year extension at this point. Gardy is somewhere around problem number 38 on this team. Problems 37-34 are the other coaches and problems 1-33 are the replacement players on the 40-man roster.

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 03:15 PM
Ultimately, I look at the two most quotes reasons to fire Gardy and dismiss them:
1) It's hard to look at the results of this team this year and lay them at Gardy's feet.


It's not just this year, it's three consecutive years of 90+ losses. Virtually every other non-expansion franchise in the past 30 years has started with a clean slate by hiring a new manager after a streak of futility like that.


The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing?

Since everyone agrees managers affect the regular season to some extent, wouldn't the burden of proof be on those who believe they don't affect the playoffs?:confused:

At any rate, it isn't that his teams didn't win, it's that it appeared as though they failed to compete, just like they've failed to compete against the Yankees for over a decade.

As for specific impact on playoff games, BProp archives has a whole list of Gardy head-scratchers just from a single loss to the Yankees in 2004. Nobody is suggesting it was all or even mostly on Gardy, but it's hard to see how playoff performance isn't a black mark on Gardy's record.



I know there are some traits that people don't like about Gardy, but it's hard to overlook seven different Manager of the Year votes in a nine-year span.

It's actually really easy to overlook the MoY votes if you know the trick to it. All you have to do is imagine Derek Jeter playing shortstop in 2010 with just slightly more range than a fire hydrant, and then remember that somebody gave that guy a Gold Glove for it. Poof, MoY votes vanish in a puff of irrelevance.

Then you're left with a .513 win percentage, playoff embarrassments with two entirely different groups of players, an open disdain for "cybermetrics", and unconditional loyalty to a pitching coach whose value to the organization is highly questionable at best.

Yes, Gardy knows the fundamentals of the game, is popular with players and seems to do well at making the grind of 162 games easier for them.

But based on 30 years of history, in any other franchise he'd be gone. So by bringing him back, the Twins are either boasting that Gardenhire is a historically valuable manager, or admitting that they've fielded historically bad rosters three seasons running.

He's good and the players have been bad, but neither of those historical polar opposites of merit are right, and neither was the decision to bring Gardenhire back. The two year contract that concedes 2014 will be another exhibition season was just icing on the uranium yellowcake.

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 03:17 PM
We need to stop short-changing how bad it's been the last 3 years. it's three consecutive seasons of 96 or more losses. 90+ makes is seem less futile than it's actually been

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 03:24 PM
Sure we could have gone out and spent another 20-30 million last offseason but with all the holes we have seen this year does anyone actually think that would have bought us a World series ring this year? I'm guessing 20 million in players maybe gets us to 75-80 wins at best.
Since the Twins have stated that unspent salary budget doesn't carry over, it would seem that it's simply a choice between even just 75 wins or a team that frequently had fans looking for the nearest eye wash station for a third straight year. Gotta go with the latter...

Thegrin
09-30-2013, 03:26 PM
On the other side of the coin, the most recent managers that I can think of that had a string of three straight awful season and eventually righted the ship was Bruce Bochy eight years ago when he was in San Diego and of course TK well over a decade ago.

In short, there are plenty of instances of a new manager getting a club back on track and very few where the existing manager was able to do it. There may be little explanation but it isn't as blind of a move as you imply.

Very few managers are allowed to stay long enough to turn around a bad team. They are fired before they have the chance. Eric Wedge would have gotten the same or better results from this Cleveland team.

old nurse
09-30-2013, 03:26 PM
Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).
In regards to Smith, other than sign Sano and trade for Pavano, did he do anything that in the end improved the Twins roster during his tenure?

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 03:28 PM
It's easy to have Smith as the scapegoat...he's not in charge anymore.
If the prospects acquired on his watch turn out like we hope, most people including me will probably call it square and move on.

Or at least confine our bitterness to our individual most hated trade...

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 03:29 PM
If the prospects acquired on his watch turn out like we hope, most people including me will probably call it square and move on.

Or at least confine our bitterness to our individual most hated trade...

and many will give Ryan all the credit and still scapegoat Smith...

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 03:29 PM
They were in compete mode, not trade off players mode. The issue with this team is they have no players in their prime.......those players would have been acquired under the previous Ryan regime. Not even sure how this is debatable. It just is.

Riverbrian
09-30-2013, 03:32 PM
I like Gardy and I always have... I don't believe that Gardy is at fault but I think it's time for a change. Improvement was supposed to be the test. Pitching was a little better but not enough. With the exception of Brian Dozier... The offense took 4 giant steps back. I don't care about 84 losses or 90 losses or 96 losses or 140 losses. This team did not improve at all according to what my eyes saw. I can't look at 2013 and say that improvement happened. I don't think anyone can. The K totals and lack of power and lack of speed and lack of the little things was stunning. I don't care if they lose as much as some... But I would appreciate looking a little better while losing at the very least.

I like to think that I have patience and I like to think that I recognize a problem that won't be solved overnight. However... I support an immediate culture change in the Twins clubhouse... It has been said that culture change is the strong and slow boring of hard boards.

It's even harder if you continue to use the same tools to strongly and slowly bore those boards.

snepp
09-30-2013, 03:32 PM
Very few managers are allowed to stay long enough to turn around a bad team. They are fired before they have the chance. Eric Wedge would have gotten the same or better results from this Cleveland team.

Or better?


Those following the Mariners closely on a daily basis would surely disagree. He's been piling up lousy decisions on top of even lousier decisions.

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 03:43 PM
Very few managers are allowed to stay long enough to turn around a bad team. They are fired before they have the chance. Eric Wedge would have gotten the same or better results from this Cleveland team.

But there is no evidence to support that. There is proof that Terry Francona did get better results from that team. Aside from the fact that it was Manny Acta who managed Cleveland last season, we can say with certainty that their front office may have fired a blameless manager but it worked, and it is working in many instances for many other teams.

Willihammer
09-30-2013, 03:45 PM
Why didn't they just extend Gardy last offseason? Ryan was looking for improvement, and didn't get it. What does Gardy have to do to get himself fired, win the World Series?

jokin
09-30-2013, 04:52 PM
In regards to Smith, other than sign Sano and trade for Pavano, did he do anything that in the end improved the Twins roster during his tenure?

Smith was overall a very bad hire (based on the strong recommendation of Terry Ryan, I might add- and still remains Ryan's "special assistant"), but he made dramatic inroads in the international market, how can you dare minimize the incredible effort involved in signing Sano?

Since you asked, here are other key acquisitions during his tenure:

Kyle Gibson
Eddie Rosario
Santana
Kepler
Dozier
Tonkin
Tyler Jones
Hicks
Diamond
Thielbar
Herrmann
Albers
Achter
Harrison
Wimmers
Darnell
Landa
Lo

That's 7 potential starting position players and 10 (mostly) potential upside arms.


Major leaguers acquired (but unsuccessfully removed from the roster for actual commensurate value)
JJ Hardy
RA Dickey
Craig Breslow
Jim Thome
Carl Pavano
Delmon Young

jokin
09-30-2013, 04:58 PM
Or better?


Those following the Mariners closely on a daily basis would surely disagree. He's been piling up lousy decisions on top of even lousier decisions.

And he got out just before the boom was about to (deservedly) drop on him.

John Bonnes
09-30-2013, 05:05 PM
Why didn't they just extend Gardy last offseason? Ryan was looking for improvement, and didn't get it. What does Gardy have to do to get himself fired, win the World Series?

I don't think you meant it this way, but I'll twist your point a little: Since Ryan gave Gardy a team that even Ryan had to know wasn't going to be competitive, why not give Gardy an extension last year? The bottom line was that this team wasn't going to be good and there are several data points that support that, like the Vegas over-under lines on season wins. When you give a manager a bad team, it is very hard to evaluate a manager on his results.

mike wants wins
09-30-2013, 05:10 PM
So Ryan knew they were not going to be good this year? Because that's not what he has said in numerous interviews before and during the season, and even recently. He said they'd be competitive, and that he was disappointed how bad the offense was.....that it was much worse than he expected.

jokin
09-30-2013, 05:12 PM
I like Gardy and I always have... I don't believe that Gardy is at fault but I think it's time for a change. Improvement was supposed to be the test. Pitching was a little better but not enough. With the exception of Brian Dozier... The offense took 4 giant steps back. I don't care about 84 losses or 90 losses or 96 losses or 140 losses. This team did not improve at all according to what my eyes saw. I can't look at 2013 and say that improvement happened. I don't think anyone can. The K totals and lack of power and lack of speed and lack of the little things was stunning. I don't care if they lose as much as some... But I would appreciate looking a little better while losing at the very least.

I like to think that I have patience and I like to think that I recognize a problem that won't be solved overnight. However... I support an immediate culture change in the Twins clubhouse... It has been said that culture change is the strong and slow boring of hard boards.

It's even harder if you continue to use the same tools to strongly and slowly bore those boards.

RB, you started out your post with a complete exoneration of Gardy, but then went on to state areas where he does have some responsibility for improving. Gardy kept complaining game after game about poor or gaffe-tastic base-running decisions (and that doesn't include complete laziness or cluelessness by multiple instances when simply sliding into a base would have resulted in a run scored or a player being safe), failure to protect the plate with 2 strikes, throwing to the wrong base, calling out veteran players in an effort to establish some team leadership, accountability and sense of urgency and appeal to their manhood, etc.

As far as your excellent metaphor goes, a wordsmith was on the radio this afternoon right after the press conference and came up with The Word that typfies best the MN Twins culture:

hidebound

adj.

unwilling or unable to change because of tradition or convention.


Combining this word with your metaphor, what with the current "tools" in place, that hide is far too bound up to get bored successfully anytime soon.

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 05:15 PM
When you give a manager a bad team, it is very hard to evaluate a manager on his results.
And yet virtually every other organization in baseball has done so when their manager has lost this many games in three years, with identical outcomes from those evaluations.

darin617
09-30-2013, 05:16 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/kid_freak_out.gif

Has there been a statement released by the Twins stating that all coaches are being brought back? This is the biggest joke ever if it proves to be true.
But look on the bright side, the Twins claim they are willing to spend money this year to improve this dreadful team.

jokin
09-30-2013, 05:26 PM
And yet virtually every other organization in baseball has done so when their manager has lost this many games in three years, with identical results.

Situations this dire usually mean they don't get the chance to even make it to 3 years of managing futility, let alone retain the entire coaching staff, as well.

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 06:36 PM
Situations this dire usually mean they don't get the chance to even make it to 3 years of managing futility, let alone retain the entire coaching staff, as well.

Exactly. There is absolutely no accountability here and the defenses here are generally pretty alarming. The players "like Gardy"--well they are on a MLB roster, for one thing. Two, saying bad things about a manager when they DIDN'T KNOW his status would be dumb as hell. Three, who cares? Am I to really believe that a player with a brain like Joe Mauer doesn't have his eye on other managers? I couldn't care less if Clete Thomas, Mike Pelfrey, and Anthony Swarzak love the manager to death.

old nurse
09-30-2013, 07:09 PM
But there is no evidence to support that. There is proof that Terry Francona did get better results from that team. Aside from the fact that it was Manny Acta who managed Cleveland last season, we can say with certainty that their front office may have fired a blameless manager but it worked, and it is working in many instances for many other teams.
Terry Francona had a very different team from the one that Manny Acta managed ( I might state the obvious, also a very different team than the one Eric Wedge managed in 09). Unless you think that adding Swisher, Kazmir and Born had no positive effect for the team and that the trades were just shuffling similar players back and forth. The 2012 and 2013 Indians are vastly different teams.

Thrylos
09-30-2013, 07:19 PM
I don't think you meant it this way, but I'll twist your point a little: Since Ryan gave Gardy a team that even Ryan had to know wasn't going to be competitive, why not give Gardy an extension last year? The bottom line was that this team wasn't going to be good and there are several data points that support that, like the Vegas over-under lines on season wins. When you give a manager a bad team, it is very hard to evaluate a manager on his results.

Let me twist your point a bit:

if a General Manager does not give a manager a team to compete, then he does not do his job and should be accountable for this, correct?

Cannot have it both ways.

Ryan and/or Gardenhire should be fired if there were a single bone of accountability in this organization.

TheLeviathan
09-30-2013, 07:24 PM
If Gardy kept his job because Ryan knows he gave him a crap roster, then Ryan is the problem. Some would agree to that, but many here want to defend both out of both sides of their mouth.

Personally, I think Ryan's delusions about meaningful September games is far more the issue than Gardy.

jokin
09-30-2013, 07:32 PM
Terry Francona had a very different team from the one that Manny Acta managed ( I might state the obvious, also a very different team than the one Eric Wedge managed in 09). Unless you think that adding Swisher, Kazmir and Born had no positive effect for the team and that the trades were just shuffling similar players back and forth. The 2012 and 2013 Indians are vastly different teams.

Wait a minute, what about that chorus we heard about what a waste of time and fools errand it was for a 94-loss team like Cleveland to have done all this roster upgrading and quality-manager hire (who was instrumental in getting FAs to sign, and insisted on having a hand in the necessary upgrades) in search of a one-year turn-around to relevancy and legitimate competitiveness? Suppposedly, if we follow what the "stay the course" contingent profferred, what the Indians accomplished was neither possible or prudent.

They also said the manager doesn't make much of a difference to the W-L column anyway, the manager can't make bad players good, the manager is so well-respected he would be flooded with offers the day he was let go, amongst other myth-making mirth........

jokin
09-30-2013, 07:42 PM
We need to stop short-changing how bad it's been the last 3 years. it's three consecutive seasons of 96 or more losses. 90+ makes is seem less futile than it's actually been

They've averaged 97 losses/year. During today's presser the owner actually openly mocked his manager in classic Minnesota passive-agressive style---TWICE--- in successive off-the-cuff comments during the press conference. Talk about a vote of confidence.........

4 dour faces/2 microphones/0 accountability.......

Tell me, how many fans, advertisers.....but even more importantly, agents and prospective players got any reassurances today that this thing is getting turned around any time soon?

USAFChief
09-30-2013, 07:43 PM
Does anyone have a link to view the press conference?

Bark's Lounge
09-30-2013, 08:33 PM
Does anyone have a link to view the press conference?

Hey Chief. I have not found the full press conference on the interwebs. I did watch it when it aired today at 2:30. It was in all so many words towing the company line and during the Q&A portion of the Press Conference Jim Pohlad made a few jokes. (1.) about having the ability to get Ron his 1,000 victory in the next 2 years and (2.) some kind of joke about Gardy wearing a moo moo (over my head). Meh.

This is the link to Gardenhire's statement at the beginning of the press conference on MLB.com.

Video: Ryan, Gardenhire on extension for Twins skipper | MLB.com (http://wapc.mlb.com/min/play/?tcid=mm_min_vid&c_id=min&content_id=31063489)

howeda7
09-30-2013, 08:55 PM
I'm OK with this, only because it keeps Terry Ryan on the hook for 2014. If they made the move to Molitor, it would be starting the 3-year window all over again. If Terry Ryan follows through on his threat to be inactive in FA again and we stagger though another 90 loss season with a horrible pitching staff, he should be fired right along with Gardy a year from now.

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-30-2013, 11:33 PM
Look, if they had any more black coaches to fire, they would! What do you want them to do, fire a white guy? That's not the Twins' Way.

This is actually a very valid point. From what I've read, the Twins don't have a Black or Latino coach in the system above A ball, nor any Black or Latino veteran ballplayers on their big league club any more? Admins do you want to take a crack at explaining this for us?

glunn
10-01-2013, 02:51 AM
I'm not picking on you with this response, but it seems indicative of many of the threads. To sort of combine them, the argument seems to be "Well, they have to do SOMETHING, so let's try this."

I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

John, your argument is logical, but even if Gardy is a good manager and difficult to replace, I believe that the Twins would benefit from some new blood and fresh perspectives, preferably from a new manager who has worked inside an organization that has had great success with a low budget, such as the Rays or the A's.

My personal sense is that Gardy is not a great manager, but even if he is, it seems to me that the Twins have been developing a losing mentality and maybe some players are no longer listening to Gardy and his staff. I have no evidence of this other than watching a lot of continuing mediocrity on the field, but obviously a lot of us feel that Gardy is not doing a great job.

In my mind, there is lots of room for debate about Gardy's competence and effectiveness, but after watching three years of dreck, I am ready for some new blood, or at least some different variety of dreck.

glunn
10-01-2013, 03:21 AM
This is actually a very valid point. From what I've read, the Twins don't have a Black or Latino coach in the system above A ball, nor any Black or Latino veteran ballplayers on their big league club any more? Admins do you want to take a crack at explaining this for us?

Kob's post was patently incorrect (considering that the Twins have fired more white guys than black guys) and inflammatory, so I deleted Kobs' post and awarded him an infraction.

Now you compound Kobs' trolling by implying that the Twins are racist with respect to Black and Latino players, despite the fact that most of their top prospects are Black and/or Latino, e.g. Buxton and Sano. I happen to agree that it would be wise for the Twins to look for greater ethic diversity in terms of coaches, but veiled and unsupported insinuations of racism are offensive and inflammatory.

We moderators are giving a lot of latitude in this thread, but if you want to talk about racial or ethnic discrimination then you are going to need to be factual and sensitive to the reality that accusations of racial/ethnic bias are inflammatory when they are based on conjecture.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 06:36 AM
Kob's post was patently incorrect (considering that the Twins have fired more white guys than black guys) and inflammatory, so I deleted Kobs' post and awarded him an infraction.

Now you compound Kobs' trolling by implying that the Twins are racist with respect to Black and Latino players, despite the fact that most of their top prospects are Black and/or Latino, e.g. Buxton and Sano. I happen to agree that it would be wise for the Twins to look for greater ethic diversity in terms of coaches, but veiled and unsupported insinuations of racism are offensive and inflammatory.

We moderators are giving a lot of latitude in this thread, but if you want to talk about racial or ethnic discrimination then you are going to need to be factual and sensitive to the reality that accusations of racial/ethnic bias are inflammatory when they are based on conjecture.

Is it accurate that the Twins do not have a Black or Latino coach in their system above A ball?

nicksaviking
10-01-2013, 09:25 AM
I don't know why I would even dip my toe into this pool, but I sincerely doubt the orgainzation is run by bigots. Well not since Calvin Griffith sold the team anyway. The problem is that they are an old boys club, they like to hire and promote from within and avoid stepping outside their comfortable zone by hiring with familiar faces. It just happens that the club has a lot of white faces. Jake Mauer, Doug Mientkiewicz, Tom Brunansky, Terry Steinbach. These guys are already Twins family. If Jacque Jones or Eddie Guardado came looking for jobs, the Twins would likely consider them strongly.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 09:41 AM
I don't know why I would even dip my toe into this pool, but I sincerely doubt the orgainzation is run by bigots. Well not since Calvin Griffith sold the team anyway. The problem is that they are an old boys club, they like to hire and promote from within and avoid stepping outside their comfortable zone by hiring with familiar faces. It just happens that the club has a lot of white faces. Jake Mauer, Doug Mientkiewicz, Tom Brunansky, Terry Steinbach. These guys are already Twins family. If Jacque Jones or Eddie Guardado came looking for jobs, the Twins would likely consider them strongly.

I have no interest in a conversation regarding baseless accusations of bigotry.

If that statement is accurate, however, then it does suggest the "old boys club" (not in the racial sense of the term) mentality that you reference, and to me, that is a problem.

The organization should make every effort to fit their coaches to the players they have towards the pursuit of helping those players develop. If the Twins Way is instead to reward friends and colleagues for their hard work and/or loyalty, then that's a systemic problem.

ScottyB
10-01-2013, 10:40 AM
I think Bobby Cuellar is above A level. And when we say above A level, there are only six coaching positions between AA and AAA. At the two A level clubs, their six coaches include Tommy Watkins and Ivan Arteaga, an African American and a Venezuelan. Admittedly, there could be more, but it's not totally empty.

CharacterGroove
10-01-2013, 11:21 AM
I think Bobby Cuellar is above A level. And when we say above A level, there are only six coaching positions between AA and AAA. At the two A level clubs, their six coaches include Tommy Watkins and Ivan Arteaga, an African American and a Venezuelan. Admittedly, there could be more, but it's not totally empty.

Thanks. I believe Bobby Cuellar was born in Texas, so I'm not sure what he qualifies under or whether he serves the intended purpose - particularly as a 60-year-old bullpen coach at the MLB level.

I don't think it's wise to put too much emphasis on the issue, but considering the makeup of baseball talent, it's hard for me to understand why there wouldn't be at least one Latino on every coaching staff in the minors.

If the team has considered the void and determined that it's meaningless. Okay. If they'be disregarded the fact that this could be an issue and/or detriment, then it's symptomatic of a larger issue within the organization. Most likely being a hiring policy that seeks to reward candidates rather than tailoring the hire towards the goals of the position.

Hosken Bombo Disco
10-01-2013, 02:04 PM
Kob's post was patently incorrect (considering that the Twins have fired more white guys than black guys) and inflammatory, so I deleted Kobs' post and awarded him an infraction.

Now you compound Kobs' trolling by implying that the Twins are racist with respect to Black and Latino players, despite the fact that most of their top prospects are Black and/or Latino, e.g. Buxton and Sano. I happen to agree that it would be wise for the Twins to look for greater ethic diversity in terms of coaches, but veiled and unsupported insinuations of racism are offensive and inflammatory.

We moderators are giving a lot of latitude in this thread, but if you want to talk about racial or ethnic discrimination then you are going to need to be factual and sensitive to the reality that accusations of racial/ethnic bias are inflammatory when they are based on conjecture.

I did not intend to imply racism, and I don't think I did. Also, I understand this thread is not the place to start an animated conversation on civil rights, which I understand would make the site admins uneasy and which is also not what I was trying to do.

In light of the last 3 seasons and yesterday's press conference, I think it's fair to open every aspect of the Twins organization to scrutiny. When owners of professional sports teams come hat in hand to the public for financial assistance, they are acknowledging that the team is a public good and worth having around. The team wants engaged fans. People in Twins Territory have a lot invested in the Twins even if it's just an emotional investment. It's hard for many of us to hear that there will be no personnel changes for the foreseeable future. We were Twins fans before Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire ever got here. This should be a results based business. If and when the Twins continue to lose, I think this only gets uglier, and no one wants that. In light of everything that's happening, each member of the public invested in this team has a right to respectfully challenge these decisions or non decisions.

So again, I didn't intend to inflame or make an accusation of racism against individuals inside the organization, I just wanted to defend a person's right to ask an uncomfortable question.

BabyJesusBuxton
10-01-2013, 04:07 PM
Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

I'm not trying to say that the past three years have been Smith's fault but if Smith was still in charge and got the expanded payroll he wanted (and likely needed looking at the current team) we may be in different circumstances.

However, when the ownership decided that they didn't want to fork out the extra money for the higher payroll that was going to be necessary for the Twins to right the ship in the short term, they kicked Smith to the curb and brought back Ryan. At this point, the downturn was inevitable IMO. Ryan is not trying to win now no matter what he says in public statements. He is trying to build another long time contender similar to the run the Twins had during Gardy's first 8-9 years as manager.

So ultimately my opinion is that this year's poor performance is the result of changing GM's at a critical point and the new GM changing the organizational approach for the short term (for the best interest of the team in the long term).

IMO if Smith was still the GM up until this point and could have spent up to around 125 million, the Twins could have put out a competitive club although the farm system wouldn't be nearly as deep as it is and the length of success remaining at the MLB level wouldn't last much longer.

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 04:16 PM
The farm system, when Ryan took over from Smith, was top 10. Mother Hubbard's cupboard was hardly bare. It's gotten better MOSTLY due to us being so bad the last couple years so we could land guys like Buxton and Stewart.

And I'll maintain this belief until proven other-wise. Ryan's ultimate goal is to build a team to be competitive WITHIN THE DIVISION, and do it as cheaply as possible. This keeps fan interest, so fans keep showing up, and keeps payroll lower. This is why he keeps preaching meaningful games in September. How about some meaningful games in October...even better, late October...

John Bonnes
10-01-2013, 04:45 PM
The farm system, when Ryan took over from Smith, was top 10. Mother Hubbard's cupboard was hardly bare.

FWIW, (and I don't have Baseball America's or Keith Laws 2011 organizational rankings handy) I don't think that's accurate. I seem to remember talking on GATG with Aaron at the beginning of last year (which was shortly after Ryan had been hired) about how the farm system was deemed below average. That isn't saying those services were accurate, but I don't remember the Twins being ranked Top 10 nationally when Ryan took over for Smith.


And I'll maintain this belief until proven other-wise. Ryan's ultimate goal is to build a team to be competitive WITHIN THE DIVISION, and do it as cheaply as possible. This keeps fan interest, so fans keep showing up, and keeps payroll lower. This is why he keeps preaching meaningful games in September. How about some meaningful games in October...even better, late October...

How would Ryan's actions vary if late October was the ultimate goal, rather than a division championship? It seems like you have something in mind.

John Bonnes
10-01-2013, 04:50 PM
Just found the BA list for 2011. Turns out we were both wrong. The Twins ranked 12th:

BaseballAmerica.com: Prospects: Rankings: Organization Talent Rankings: 2011 Organization Talent Rankings (http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-talent-rankings/2011/2611472.html)

ashburyjohn
10-01-2013, 05:00 PM
Also, I understand this thread is not the place to start an animated conversation on civil rights, which I understand would make the site admins uneasy and which is also not what I was trying to do.

Speaking only as just one of several moderators: digressions are OK, and if they take on a life of their own then starting new threads would be appropriate. The challenge, on the topic in question, would be to keep the discussion about words and deeds, and not about assumptions and mindreading; as always, this would apply to public figures and fellow posters alike.

The site admins get uneasy about asshattery, not about uncomfortable topics if they pertain to the Twins.

BabyJesusBuxton
10-01-2013, 05:03 PM
My last post was mostly clarifying that I am not blaming Smith on the bad year in 2013. Anytime his name is brought up people just assume that someone is throwing him under the bus for poor decisions, bad trades, ect. ect. during his tenure as GM. I just think that his short term plan was way different from TR's is now. And IMO the differences in approach is the reason for the 90+ loss season this year.

I understand your pessimism when it comes to TR spending money. I hope you end up eating crow and he expands the payroll to add quality FA pieces to the roster as our young core comes up to the majors but I'm hesitant to fully believe this will happen. I think it is obvious we need starting pitching help (1 or 2 pitchers who slot in the 2-4 range would be an improvement over that terrible arms being sent out there the past 2 seasons). Ultimately I see next year being the final dagger in some of the graduated prospects in terms of whether they will remain.

To bring the conversation back to the topic at hand --> That leaves Gardy with 1 year left on his contract and (hopefully) a competitive roster, after the failed prospects are all weeded out next year, to see what he can do in 2015.

Also, on a slightly different aspect of Gardy as manager - I really think Anderson needs to be replaced as pitching coach. If that means Gardy has to go to do it, then so be it. I don't think we can upgrade at manager very easily but it's almost impossible to upgrade at pitching coach after the past 4 years of performance we've been seeing.

(Apologies for the short story length posts)

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 05:05 PM
Ranking baseball?s farm systems (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/fantasy/article/ranking-baseballs-farm-systems/)

That was at the beginning of 2011..had us at #6.

Ranking the 30 Minor League Systems | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/ranking-the-30-minor-league-systems/)

That had us 15th at the beginning of 2012.

2012 Baseball Farm System Rankings - Minor League Ball (http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/23/2728027/2012-baseball-farm-system-rankings-prospects)

Had us at 17th, so ever so slightly below average.

So, you are right...and thanks for the correction.

As far as the rest, I didn't even say division championship...I said competitive within the division. If a division chmpionship happens, awesome, but we've seen the team downgrade after having very good teams instead of getting aggressive to get the pieces to push us over the top (especially after the 2006 and 2010 seasons). They were so good, surely we can cut some talent down and still stay competitive in the division, seemed to be what they were saying.

In any event, don't wait until the supposed right time to get talent. Don't think one part of the diamond is covered so we don't need to pursue talent there. How many times have we read we don't need OF help? WHY?

Look at the Tigers. They could have said we have two very good starting pitchers why go get more, but they go after more and more great starting pitching...the kind that's looking towards the playoffs. Their #6 pitcher would likely be our #1. Same thing with position players. Owner says go get Fielder, they get him. Go get Hunter. Go get. They wanted a team that is built to truly compete in the playoffs. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but the effort is there. Now, understand, I get the whole thing that, somehow, we don't have the same fund available to us that Detroit has, but the effort is there. That owner wants a W Series winner, and it shows.

BabyJesusBuxton
10-01-2013, 05:05 PM
Late October baseball would be pretty amazing. I wouldn't mind not being able to feel my toes at a Twins game that wasn't in April!

LaBombo
10-01-2013, 05:24 PM
How would Ryan's actions vary if late October was the ultimate goal, rather than a division championship? It seems like you have something in mind.
Maybe you can repost or even revisit your interesting 'Twins' Binary Hope' article from last fall. There was an ongoing discussion about the relative merits of the two philosophies of reloading quickly and trying to be competitive in as many seasons as practical (the 85 win way) vs. accepting an extra down year or two to build the best team practical (the 95 win way).

Another tough season for the 85 win way, with no team reaching the playoffs with fewer than 90. The lowest win totals in the AL and NL to avoid sudden death were 93 and 92.