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View Full Version : Article: Twins Must Shake Loser Mentality This Offseason



Nick Nelson
09-29-2013, 10:19 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2375-Twins-Must-Shake-Loser-Mentality-This-Offseason

MarshalltheIrish
09-30-2013, 02:11 AM
As one who's conditioned to the 2015-2017 mindset, I still agree with plenty here. Except for retaining Gardy. Like him or not, I think there's more than enough of a case for him leaving and bringing in a new manager to inject new ways of thinking. Preferably from the outside. Dave Martinez, Chip Hale, and Matt Williams are my top three choices. But even then it wouldn't matter as much if they don't take some chances with free agency.

TheLeviathan
09-30-2013, 07:11 AM
Well said.

drivlikejehu
09-30-2013, 07:14 AM
Here's the problem with the article:


The Twins may be in a rather dire situation presently, but contention in 2014 is hardly some implausible dream scenario -- IF the front office is prepared to make such a commitment.

We know for an absolute fact that the front office/ownership is not prepared to make such a commitment. It is just complete fantasy to suggest it is even a remote possibility. You are talking about what could be in alternate universe - and definitely have good points in that regard - but they have no bearing on the world as it is.

Most Twins fans are over-optimistic because they don't realize that even a few very talented young position players isn't enough to revive this team. So the situation is actually far worse than having to wait things out a couple more years- it is more akin to the early stages of the Pirates long drought.

The Twins are a cash generation tool for the Pohlad family. Any thoughts on what could happen have to be fully compatible with that reality.

IdahoPilgrim
09-30-2013, 08:07 AM
Nice article, and I thought very realistic, pro and con.

And I respectfully disagree with the previous commenter.

Badsmerf
09-30-2013, 08:24 AM
As someone that is skeptical of all Twins pitching prospects not named Stewart, I feel likewise that the situation is dire indeed. Unless talent is acquired through FA, this regime will never go deep into the playoffs. Unlike what Terry Ryans wants Twins fans to believe, waiting for uber prospects to develop is setting yourself up for failure. The Royals and Pirates are finally seeing some success after years and years of this. I don't want to go a decade without a winning season. Unless the FO makes some moves this offseason, it will already be 4 years of terrible horrible sickening baseball. All the while having the ability to sign guys to help be competitive and not doing so. Unacceptable.

Many of the moves Cleveland did are moves I've seen some posters here at TD scream for until they are blue in the face every offseason (I'll take my bow). Moderate risk with high reward players, solid FA signs, management changes, that is how you can turn teams around. I feel like the 2013 Indians are going to be referenced a lot in the coming years about how to take a bad team and pull a 180.

Dman
09-30-2013, 08:34 AM
If the Twins would go after top talent in FA then I would be on board with 2014. The 2013 team competed for for the first two months of the season so with some better pitching and better hitting with runners on base they could improve dramatically. The thing is TR isn't a believer in FA and we don't have a lot of pitching help on the horizon so next year is this year plus maybe see some of the younger prospects at various points in the season.

2015 is the earliest time frame for your scenario in my mind unless they find better pitching somewhere and a lot of it.

howieramone
09-30-2013, 08:51 AM
As someone that is skeptical of all Twins pitching prospects not named Stewart, I feel likewise that the situation is dire indeed. Unless talent is acquired through FA, this regime will never go deep into the playoffs. Unlike what Terry Ryans wants Twins fans to believe, waiting for uber prospects to develop is setting yourself up for failure. The Royals and Pirates are finally seeing some success after years and years of this. I don't want to go a decade without a winning season. Unless the FO makes some moves this offseason, it will already be 4 years of terrible horrible sickening baseball. All the while having the ability to sign guys to help be competitive and not doing so. Unacceptable.

Many of the moves Cleveland did are moves I've seen some posters here at TD scream for until they are blue in the face every offseason (I'll take my bow). Moderate risk with high reward players, solid FA signs, management changes, that is how you can turn teams around. I feel like the 2013 Indians are going to be referenced a lot in the coming years about how to take a bad team and pull a 180. Congratulations to the Indians for winning their last 10 games and making the play-offs. Obviously I don't know, but I view them as the flavor of the day, and I don't see anything that is sustainable. An OP referenced 7 articles in another thread, where the national media lauded our very own Twins for the strength of our farm system and progress made in the rebuilding effort.

Badsmerf
09-30-2013, 09:35 AM
Congratulations to the Indians for winning their last 10 games and making the play-offs. Obviously I don't know, but I view them as the flavor of the day, and I don't see anything that is sustainable. An OP referenced 7 articles in another thread, where the national media lauded our very own Twins for the strength of our farm system and progress made in the rebuilding effort.

I'm not going to respond with an elaborate post (which I deleted) to lay out why the Twins are in trouble for years to come if they rely simply on prospects. What I am going to do, is reiterate that it doesn't work very well. Prospects fail all the time, or take much longer to develop than hoped for (see HR leader Chris Davis). It is naive to think everything will be ok once the premiere talent comes up. There are philosophical problems with this organization that prevent them from winning. Unless major changes happen (like they did in Cleveland), we are destined for failure. A great farm system wont change a 95 loss team.

howieramone
09-30-2013, 09:49 AM
I'm not going to respond with an elaborate post (which I deleted) to lay out why the Twins are in trouble for years to come if they rely simply on prospects. What I am going to do, is reiterate that it doesn't work very well. Prospects fail all the time, or take much longer to develop than hoped for (see HR leader Chris Davis). It is naive to think everything will be ok once the premiere talent comes up. There are philosophical problems with this organization that prevent them from winning. Unless major changes happen (like they did in Cleveland), we are destined for failure. A great farm system wont change a 95 loss team. It is patently false to think that philosophical problems with this organization will prevent them from winning and a great farm system won't change a 95 loss team.

TheLeviathan
09-30-2013, 09:58 AM
It is patently false to think that philosophical problems with this organization will prevent them from winning and a great farm system won't change a 95 loss team.

The only thing false is the narrative that our great farm is certain to change it. It is most definitely not certain. Smerf is just pointing out that prospects alone, without the willingness to trade or sign aggressively, will also likely fail to deliver a winner. Or it is significantly more difficult.

until shown otherwise, this GM and this franchise have earned no trust they will do either of those things. Nicks article speaks to this as well. Waiting for everything to magically come together perfectly is only a good recipe to do more waiting.

Badsmerf
09-30-2013, 10:13 AM
It is patently false to think that philosophical problems with this organization will prevent them from winning and a great farm system won't change a 95 loss team.
Farm systems don't win MLB games is my point. The Royals were considered to have a top farm system for years and finally finished over .500 for the second time since 1994. O yeah, and they signed Santana and traded a top prospect for Shields to get there. They also have under-performing top prospects that they planned on being big contributors.

Why do you feel everyone should just wait while our MLB team has been a bottom 5 team for 3 years with little to no changes to the people that drove them off that cliff?

howieramone
09-30-2013, 10:44 AM
The only thing false is the narrative that our great farm is certain to change it. It is most definitely not certain. Smerf is just pointing out that prospects alone, without the willingness to trade or sign aggressively, will also likely fail to deliver a winner. Or it is significantly more difficult.

until shown otherwise, this GM and this franchise have earned no trust they will do either of those things. Nicks article speaks to this as well. Waiting for everything to magically come together perfectly is only a good recipe to do more waiting.Millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans, still recall the 1st Ryan rebuild and the domination of the Central that followed. What evidence do you have that the GM and the franchise have earned no trust?

TheLeviathan
09-30-2013, 11:23 AM
Millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans, still recall the 1st Ryan rebuild and the domination of the Central that followed. What evidence do you have that the GM and the franchise have earned no trust?

Please reread the post you responded to while trying to see what "either of those two things" might be referring to and then respond. Your response here is totally irrelevant to my point.

savvyspy
09-30-2013, 11:56 AM
Millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans, still recall the 1st Ryan rebuild and the domination of the Central that followed. What evidence do you have that the GM and the franchise have earned no trust?

Exhibit A: That they've convinced you that "domination" of the Central is akin to actually competing for a title.

Exhibit B: That you define "domination" as a team that has won exactly 0 playoff series in 10 years

Exhibit C: This organization has lost over 280 games in the past three seasons and are still snowing the local media and Twins bloggers that Free Agency isn't needed even though there isn't one team that made the playoffs in either league that doesn't use it at all to supplement their rosters. Its a flat out lie that free agency isn't a valid way to build a winner. For every Oakland (who still actually use free agency effectively) there are dozens of teams (NY, BOS, TEX, CAL, CHW, CLE, LAD, SF, STL, PHI, ATL, WAS) that have built winners in the last decade using free agents to supplement their teams. And Oakland isn't even a valid example for the Twins because Oakland knows how to develop pitching which this organization hasn't done since Brad Radke.

JB_Iowa
09-30-2013, 11:58 AM
You do not change the culture of an organization by leaving all of the management in place.

This franchise is moribund.

Oldgoat_MN
09-30-2013, 12:47 PM
Meyer, May, etc. have some real skills. Unfortunately, there is a mountain of evidence suggesting that after spending time with Anderson their SO/9 rate will drop significantly, not to return until they leave the Twins for another team.

Santana is the only pitcher I can find for whom this wasn't true.

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 01:22 PM
Millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans, still recall the 1st Ryan rebuild and the domination of the Central that followed. What evidence do you have that the GM and the franchise have earned no trust?

The 1st rebuild? The one with Rich Becker, Frankie Rodriguez and Dave Stevens? Yeah that was lights out. In Ryan's 1st rebuild the team finished 4th or 5th in the division five straight seasons. I think you are remembering his second rebuild despite the fact I've brought up the utter failure of the first one (again, due to the inability to develop and acquire proper pitching) to you multiple times. Ryan only has a 50% success rate in rebuilds thus far. You have no basis to continue these blind faith arguements, please start providing some supporting evidence in your arguments.

howieramone
09-30-2013, 01:34 PM
The 1st rebuild? The one with Rich Becker, Frankie Rodriguez and Dave Stevens? Yeah that was lights out. In Ryan's 1st rebuild the team finished 4th or 5th in the division five straight seasons. I think you are remembering his second rebuild despite the fact I've brought up the utter failure of the first one (again, due to the inability to develop and acquire proper pitching) to you multiple times. Ryan only has a 50% success rate in rebuilds thus far. You have no basis to continue these blind faith arguements, please start providing some supporting evidence in your arguments.You call it the second, I call it the first. Prove me wrong.

Adam Krueger
09-30-2013, 01:39 PM
Like others here have said - counting on farm-system talent alone to turn this organization around is foolhardy at best. Look at the Royals, for example, and how many prospects they had just a couple of years ago and how much they have struggled just to get back to being a .500 team. A true turn-around for this franchise will involve that farm-system talent that the Twins have, but it will also require significant moves from the Front Office in terms of signing quality free-agents and over-hauling the starting pitching staff. Theo Epstein did not turn the Red Sox around by simply relying on Minor League talent...he augmented the talent he had with savvy free-agent signings and built that World Series team by approaching the problem from both the top and bottom. The story, if the Twins hope to really turn this organization around, will be a similar one here.

howieramone
09-30-2013, 01:46 PM
Like others here have said - counting on farm-system talent alone to turn this organization around is foolhardy at best. Look at the Royals, for example, and how many prospects they had just a couple of years ago and how much they have struggled just to get back to being a .500 team. A true turn-around for this franchise will involve that farm-system talent that the Twins have, but it will also require significant moves from the Front Office in terms of signing quality free-agents and over-hauling the starting pitching staff. Theo Epstein did not turn the Red Sox around by simply relying on Minor League talent...he augmented the talent he had with savvy free-agent signings and built that World Series team by approaching the problem from both the top and bottom. The story, if the Twins hope to really turn this organization around, will be a similar one here. Theo took over a team which won 92 games the year before and was blessed with the 2nd highest payroll in baseball. Read up on what he just said his free agent approach will be this winter. It sounded Ryanesque to me.

nicksaviking
09-30-2013, 01:58 PM
You call it the second, I call it the first. Prove me wrong.

Matt Lawton, Brad Radke, Denny Hocking, Eddie Guardado and LaTroy Hawkins were the only players on the 1996 team and the 2001 team. That's one regular position player and one member of the rotation. Those were two completely different clubs.

Your turn.

TheLeviathan
09-30-2013, 02:03 PM
You have no basis to continue these blind faith arguements, please start providing some supporting evidence in your arguments.

Evidence is less important when truth is a secondary concern, so you are likely barking up the wrong tree.

howieramone
09-30-2013, 02:15 PM
Matt Lawton, Brad Radke, Denny Hocking, Eddie Guardado and LaTroy Hawkins were the only players on the 1996 team and the 2001 team. That's one regular position player and one member of the rotation. Those were two completely different clubs.

Your turn.

Feel free to use your definition, I'll feel free to use mine. I say it was a continuation, but if there is a definitive law of where one rebuild ends and another starts under the same GM, please provide said link.

spycake
09-30-2013, 02:30 PM
I happen to think TR's first tenure could count as one rebuild. However, it was a slow painful one (6 losing seasons under TR) before 2001.

It seemed less painful at the time because we were all distracted by Don Beaver, the threat of contraction, the threat of player strikes, ballpark lobbying, etc. And most of all, the lack of Twins Daily. :)

Unfortunately, it seems like TR is choosing a very similar approach to the current rebuild. We're already at 3 losing seasons (2 under TR) and unless we take serious, unprecedented action on the FA front soon, will likely be at 5 losing seasons in a row before our top prospects even break camp with the big club.

And that strategy, to this fan, feels a bit unacceptable, given the financial resources this club has at its disposal (the lack of which was a key reason the last rebuild took so long, and even why the ensuing success soon seemed underwhelming).

jokin
09-30-2013, 02:31 PM
Exhibit A: That they've convinced you that "domination" of the Central is akin to actually competing for a title.

Exhibit B: That you define "domination" as a team that has won exactly 0 playoff series in 10 years

Exhibit C: This organization has lost over 280 games in the past three seasons and are still snowing the local media and Twins bloggers that Free Agency isn't needed even though there isn't one team that made the playoffs in either league that doesn't use it at all to supplement their rosters. Its a flat out lie that free agency isn't a valid way to build a winner. For every Oakland (who still actually use free agency effectively) there are dozens of teams (NY, BOS, TEX, CAL, CHW, CLE, LAD, SF, STL, PHI, ATL, WAS) that have built winners in the last decade using free agents to supplement their teams. And Oakland isn't even a valid example for the Twins because Oakland knows how to develop pitching which this organization hasn't done since Brad Radke.

Good case made, counselor, might I add:

Exhibit A: The AL Central was easily the worst division in the American League...and arguably the worst in baseball for most, if not all, of the decade of the 00s. The organization and it's unconditional backers are either less scrupulous, self-deluding, or both in failing to recognize that achieving 94 wins in the AL Central meant little in terms of how the power had shifted to the AL West, and especially the AL East as the decade wore on, with significant improvements from top to botom in the East.... with only the Tigers making the necessary changes, such as hiring Leyland and adopting the necessary philosophies and commitment to remaining perenially competitive.


Exhibit B: It's actually been 11 years now since the "dominating" team won a playoff series in 2002

Exhibit C: It's officially 291 losses in the last 3 seasons-- which averages out to 97 losses per year. This season's 96 loss total would have been worse if not for the addition of the Astros to the schedule for 6 games, plus a very weak NL schedule. Without those "scheduling aids", not only could the Twins have easily topped 100 losses, they likely would have had even worse pitching and batting stats (ie, their MLB-worst SP ERA of 5.26 would have easily exceeded last year's 5.40 number, thus no improvement whatsoever for all of Ryan's promise of focusing his total attention on the matter.........and their offensive strikeout total, already 3rd worst all-time, easily could have been closer to worst ever, lowest team BA since 1968 [the Year of the Pitcher], etc.).

There is no evidence that has been presented from the other side that managment and ownership finally "gets it", to the contrary, they are obviously convinced that "staying the course" and accepting a yet-to-be determined number of future seasons of futility, until it somehow miraculously "clicks", is entirely acceptable.

drivlikejehu
09-30-2013, 02:53 PM
Jokin, I agree with you except I don't think there is another "side." For instance, the Twins had horrible starting pitching in 2012; there is no rational argument otherwise and so it's false to portay that discussion as two-sided.

To the extent Ryan or someone else denies an obvious, undeniable fact, the only possible explanations are extreme ignorance or some form of dishonesty. Logically there is no other option. I'm all for devil's advocacy and what not, but this is like arguing over whether the Earth revolves around the sun.

Shane Wahl
09-30-2013, 03:47 PM
Everyone (players and coaches) back next year except maybe adding Phil Hughes and cycling through filler players like Roenicke. Good luck with that, Twins.

Alex
09-30-2013, 03:54 PM
Congratulations to the Indians for winning their last 10 games and making the play-offs. Obviously I don't know, but I view them as the flavor of the day, and I don't see anything that is sustainable. An OP referenced 7 articles in another thread, where the national media lauded our very own Twins for the strength of our farm system and progress made in the rebuilding effort.

I think you could make an argument that the Twins are in worse shape than the Indians, especially in terms of pitching.

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 04:34 PM
You do not change the culture of an organization by leaving all of the management in place.

This franchise is moribund.

Great word. It's not just moribund, it's http://www.proggnosis.com/covers/G/G33810.jpg moribund.

Nick Nelson
09-30-2013, 04:39 PM
Terry Ryan's first rebuild was necessarily slow and painful because there was no money to spend. He's working in a different environment right now and should act like it. Taking a risk isn't the worst thing in the world.

ThePuck
09-30-2013, 04:40 PM
I think you could make an argument that the Twins are in worse shape than the Indians, especially in terms of pitching.

Imagine how bad the pitching would have been if Ryan HADN'T done everything possible to significantly improve the starting pitching.

Alex
09-30-2013, 04:46 PM
You do not change the culture of an organization by leaving all of the management in place.

This franchise is moribund.

The more I read from the manager and front office, the more I'd like to see a complete overhaul from the top down, not just limited to managers. Organizational philosophies come across as antiquated and the FO doesn't seem to see a reason to try to change it.

Alex
09-30-2013, 04:47 PM
Imagine how bad the pitching would have been if Ryan HADN'T done everything possible to significantly improve the starting pitching.

I know. And it's so nice because of all the work he put in last year he doesn't have to do as much work this offseason. Oh.

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 04:56 PM
Feel free to use your definition, I'll feel free to use mine. I say it was a continuation, but if there is a definitive law of where one rebuild ends and another starts under the same GM, please provide said link.
There's not much use in defining when rebuilding starts or ends if you don't define what rebuilding is.

If you believe the Twins have been rebuilding the past couple of seasons, then by default you're defining it as a process composed almost entirely of churning out nearly-100-loss seasons while waiting for prospects to gradually work their way up from the low minors.

The only significant rebuilding move that Ryan has made was to trade Span and Revere for pitching prospects. While commendable, it appears to have been as much about clearing the way for a prospect the organization wildly overestimated as it was about rebuilding, given that the team ended up with Clete Thomas in center for a good chunk of the season.

darin617
09-30-2013, 05:26 PM
You can view the page at Twins Daily - Twins Must Shake Loser Mentality This Offseason (http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2375-Twins-Must-Shake-Loser-Mentality-This-Offseason)

So then why did they resign Gardy and bring back all the coaching staff. Terry Ryan should have at least made Rick Anderson go away as part of the agreement before the 2yr mistake was signed.....

LaBombo
09-30-2013, 07:31 PM
Every other organization in baseball would start a winner-mentality rebuild by dismissing the manager. That's not an opinion, just a matter of historical fact.

Here's the list of the other managers since The Second World War who've lost 90 or more games in three consecutive seasons and returned the following season:

Tom Kelly Twins 1997-1999 Not too surprising given Carl Pohlad's loyalty, the threat of contraction, and TK's two WS rings.

Felipe Alou Montreal 1998-2000 Like the Twins, the Expos faced contraction and were so wrecked by Loria that MLB was forced to buy them.

Larry Rothschild TB 1998-2000, the first three years of the franchise.

Joe Torre Mets 1978-1980 Graduated from player to plyr/mgr to manager in 18 days.

Darrell Johnson Seattle 1977-1979, the first three years of the franchise.

Preston Gomez San Diego 1969-1971, the first three years of the franchise.

Casey Stengel Mets 1962-1964 Year 4 of the Mets when he took over. 8 prior WS titles.

Zack Taylor StL. Browns 1948-1950 Veeck employee who managed Eddie Gaedel.

Of the non-expansion managers, only Stengel and his historically awful Mets lost more games in three years than Gardenhire's 293 and returned for another season.

What happened to these franchises in the season after the third consecutive 90-loss season? Every one of them lost at least 93 games if you project the '81 Mets strike-shortened season to 162. Even the non-expansion franchises managed a composite record of just 61-101.

What about the managers? Only three of the eight lasted the entire fourth season. Only Kelly even managed his team again, despite the 4th straight 90 loss season. In fact, the six managers not named Torre or Alou cumulatively managed only three full season in the majors before their careers ended.

The takeaway seems to be that nobody brings back a manager after they accumulate nearly 300 losses over three years, and if they do, they can expect to lose about 100 games and fire the manager during the season anyway.

So for the people who wished that the low talent level would buy Gardenhire more time, well, what is it they say about being careful what you wish for?

Monkeypaws
09-30-2013, 10:22 PM
I hope Gardy and Andy watched David Price tonight. John Maddon showed how to not coddle a pitcher. Granted, he's a grade A stud, but still, I couldn't believe it when he came out for the 9th. I've been brainwashed....

Alex
09-30-2013, 11:27 PM
Feel free to use your definition, I'll feel free to use mine. I say it was a continuation, but if there is a definitive law of where one rebuild ends and another starts under the same GM, please provide said link.

Everyone's free to use their own starting point.

However, if you want to start it when Ryan arrived, or even last year, we should really only be talking then about what he's done since that time and not before. And frankly, he hasn't done as much, but he's getting a ton of the the credit for a farm system.

2012: (+)Drafted Buxton. No doubt this was a great pick, but almost any pick was going to greatly improve their farm system since they were picking 2nd.

2013: (+) Meyer, May, Cole Stewart (-) Span, Revere. Definitely a trade that should pay off, but both Span and Revere were young enough to be part of a rebuild and their departure looks to have left what may be at least a 1-2 year hole in CF and at a clear cost to the major league club. Frankly, I don't know how much hope we should have for May to be a significant piece.

The rest of the bunch that looks to be a significant part of the rebuild had very little to do with Ryan. Sano, Rosario, Arcia, and Pinto, and only the latter two have tasted the big leagues at all.

So, in total at best, he's drafted two promising players and acquired one other via trade at significant cost to the major league club while the rest of the rebuild were brought in under different leadership.

If you take away the draft picks as completely his (because a high level of talent would have been added to the farm system regardless of who the GM was with two high picks), I think you're left with one promising young pitcher as the only current gain in the rebuild.

Meanwhile, the big league club has gotten worse.

jokin
10-01-2013, 12:01 AM
I hope Gardy and Andy watched David Price tonight. John Maddon showed how to not coddle a pitcher. Granted, he's a grade A stud, but still, I couldn't believe it when he came out for the 9th. I've been brainwashed....


And unlike the Twins, the proactive Rays will end up getting a King's Ransom by moving Price in a way just like they did Shields, at maximum value. Which is why the current Twins management team aren't to be trusted with Meyer and Stewart.

jokin
10-01-2013, 12:04 AM
Every other organization in baseball would start a winner-mentality rebuild by dismissing the manager. That's not an opinion, just a matter of historical fact.

Here's the list of the other managers since The Second World War who've lost 90 or more games in three consecutive seasons and returned the following season:

Tom Kelly Twins 1997-1999 Not too surprising given Carl Pohlad's loyalty, the threat of contraction, and TK's two WS rings.

Felipe Alou Montreal 1998-2000 Like the Twins, the Expos faced contraction and were so wrecked by Loria that MLB was forced to buy them.

Larry Rothschild TB 1998-2000, the first three years of the franchise.

Joe Torre Mets 1978-1980 Graduated from player to plyr/mgr to manager in 18 days.

Darrell Johnson Seattle 1977-1979, the first three years of the franchise.

Preston Gomez San Diego 1969-1971, the first three years of the franchise.

Casey Stengel Mets 1962-1964 Year 4 of the Mets when he took over. 8 prior WS titles.

Zack Taylor StL. Browns 1948-1950 Veeck employee who managed Eddie Gaedel.

Of the non-expansion managers, only Stengel and his historically awful Mets lost more games in three years than Gardenhire's 293 and returned for another season.

What happened to these franchises in the season after the third consecutive 90-loss season? Every one of them lost at least 93 games if you project the '81 Mets strike-shortened season to 162. Even the non-expansion franchises managed a composite record of just 61-101.

What about the managers? Only three of the eight lasted the entire fourth season. Only Kelly even managed his team again, despite the 4th straight 90 loss season. In fact, the six managers not named Torre or Alou cumulatively managed only three full season in the majors before their careers ended.

The takeaway seems to be that nobody brings back a manager after they accumulate nearly 300 losses over three years, and if they do, they can expect to lose about 100 games and fire the manager during the season anyway.

So for the people who wished that the low talent level would buy Gardenhire more time, well, what is it they say about being careful what you wish for?

Nice research, certainly gives prospective season ticket holders a lot to look forward to next year.:banghead:

jokin
10-01-2013, 12:07 AM
There's not much use in defining when rebuilding starts or ends if you don't define what rebuilding is.

If you believe the Twins have been rebuilding the past couple of seasons, then by default you're defining it as a process composed almost entirely of churning out nearly-100-loss seasons while waiting for prospects to gradually work their way up from the low minors.

The only significant rebuilding move that Ryan has made was to trade Span and Revere for pitching prospects. While commendable, it appears to have been as much about clearing the way for a prospect the organization wildly overestimated as it was about rebuilding, given that the team ended up with Clete Thomas in center for a good chunk of the season.

Don't forget about clearing the decks for Wilkin Ramirez in providing his laudable services, multi-task worthy indeed, both in the OF, and as a translator!.....(TR always finds a way to save a buck!)

jokin
10-01-2013, 12:14 AM
Congratulations to the Indians for winning their last 10 games and making the play-offs. Obviously I don't know, but I view them as the flavor of the day, and I don't see anything that is sustainable. An OP referenced 7 articles in another thread, where the national media lauded our very own Twins for the strength of our farm system and progress made in the rebuilding effort.

And that OP in the other thread was quickly debunked, by just looking at the predictions made by the 2 most credible authors among the articles he referenced. Look to the local experts and Twins Daily if you want to be properly informed on the state of the Twins rebuild.

Highabove
10-01-2013, 12:42 AM
Ryan has stated that Brian Duensing may return to the starting Rotation.
Ryan also stated that he would like to bring back Mike Pelfrey. "he had a descent year"
Is Ryan currently in the same World as everybody else??

best game in the world
10-01-2013, 09:50 AM
I have to admit, when I saw Gardy walking out with his sun glasses under his chin for the news conference to accept a contract extension, my first reaction was RAGE. We as fans want to cast blame on the manager, I slept on it and I am past that. What I will not be able to forgive is taking "winner" from our crop of young talent (all the top kids have won at every level of the minors and before) and try to force them through the "twins way" cookie cutter. The extra coach had better be a great communicator. Go ahead and pump your fist, kick a water cooler, break a few unwritten rules. We needs wins!!

ThePuck
10-01-2013, 11:15 AM
I heard something yesterday that I couldn't believe. I mean, I knew we had been very bad the last three years but I didn't realize our winning percentage in the 2nd half of 2011, 2012, and 2013 all started with a 3

Imagine how bad it would have been if the players HAD quit on Gardy...