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YourHouseIsMyHouse
09-25-2013, 05:06 PM
The Twins are just 5-15 in their last 20 games. This has been a pathetic finish to what looked like a team that made a slight improvement. I'm so thankful Sano and company didn't get to play with these guys. Does anyone think this will carry over to next year? And does anyone think we'll win another game this year?

SpiritofVodkaDave
09-25-2013, 05:25 PM
There are like 2 pitchers in the rotation currently who will be a part of the opening day roster, and maybe 3-4 position players.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
09-25-2013, 06:59 PM
There are like 2 pitchers in the rotation currently who will be a part of the opening day roster, and maybe 3-4 position players.

A little low on the position players. Arcia, Dozier, Plouffe, Presley/Mastroianni, and Florimon will probably be back. Willingham and Doumit too if they're not traded.

iastfan112
09-25-2013, 11:21 PM
When your best player is injured it makes a poor team even worse.

Shane Wahl
09-26-2013, 12:43 AM
I can see a full 33% of the 40 man roster altering through release, trade, or DFA pretty easily. Much of what needs to happen involves ending the Twins tenure of Dave St. Peter, Terry Ryan, Mike Radcliff, Rob Antony, Brad Steil, Ron Gardenhire, and Rich Anderson.

This needs to be said, these people need to be named and called out, and that is that.

jokin
09-26-2013, 04:13 AM
There are like 2 pitchers in the rotation currently who will be a part of the opening day roster, and maybe 3-4 position players.

Going by your numbers, the Twins simply are not going to turn over 67%-75% of their position players------> if Twins managment stays in place. I can quickly name 8 position players who almost certainly will return- Willingham, Doumit, Dozier, Florimon, Escobar, Arcia, Pinto, Presley. (And if 1 or 2 are traded or sent down, I can think of at least 3 others who would be retained to take their place(s)....ie, Hermann, Plouffe, Mastro....).

beckmt
09-26-2013, 05:23 AM
Given what the Twins have now, the following position players are sure to return if not traded,
Dozier, Mauer,Florimon, Arcia, Presley, Willingham, Plouffe. Escobar will probably make it. Some combination of the following will also be here, Pinto, Herrmann, Parmelle, Collobella. That will leave one to two positions open depending on whether the Twins carry 12 or 13 position players. Pitchers are a different story as the turnover should be bigger there. Only Correria is guaranteed a starting spot and Gibson will probably be here. Rest of starting staff is or should be an unknown. Bullpen will have Perkins, Burton, Fien, Thielbar and Swarzak. That leaves at least 6 spots open with Duensing probably filling one of them. Pressly may be in Rochester to become a starter again, he at least has some stuff.

Rick Blaine
09-26-2013, 06:56 AM
I can see a full 33% of the 40 man roster altering through release, trade, or DFA pretty easily. Much of what needs to happen involves ending the Twins tenure of Dave St. Peter, Terry Ryan, Mike Radcliff, Rob Antony, Brad Steil, Ron Gardenhire, and Rich Anderson



This needs to be said, these people need to be named and called out, and that is that.

agreed!! I think this is obvious--- which makes it highly unlikely............

howieramone
09-26-2013, 08:38 AM
I can see a full 33% of the 40 man roster altering through release, trade, or DFA pretty easily. Much of what needs to happen involves ending the Twins tenure of Dave St. Peter, Terry Ryan, Mike Radcliff, Rob Antony, Brad Steil, Ron Gardenhire, and Rich Anderson.

This needs to be said, these people need to be named and called out, and that is that.After 22 months of rebuilding, with only 19 months left, your blueprint for success is off with their heads? This is just lazy and a proven way to extend the rebuilding indefinitely. I would really encourage you to read the positive articles the national media is directing toward our tried, true, and proven organization.

mike wants wins
09-26-2013, 08:44 AM
These guys were around to cause the need for the rebuild.....it isn't only 22 months with these people. I'm not sure how that is even up for debate.

howieramone
09-26-2013, 08:56 AM
These guys were around to cause the need for the rebuild.....it isn't only 22 months with these people. I'm not sure how that is even up for debate. Mike, in your own words, could you share with those keeping score at home, exactly how these 7 tried, true, and proven professionals caused the need for the rebuild?

Shane Wahl
09-26-2013, 08:59 AM
After 22 months of rebuilding, with only 19 months left, your blueprint for success is off with their heads? This is just lazy and a proven way to extend the rebuilding indefinitely. I would really encourage you to read the positive articles the national media is directing toward our tried, true, and proven organization.

"Positive articles"? "Proven organization"? I am not sure what you are talking about. Anyway, it isn't a lazy approach. Quite the opposite, actually. It is a proactive approach to sweep out those who have caused three terrible seasons in a row, and not a single playoff series won since 2002. I would leave the scouting in place.

Shane Wahl
09-26-2013, 09:00 AM
Mike, in your own words, could you share with those keeping score at home, exactly how these 7 tried, true, and proven professionals caused the need for the rebuild?

Are you related to one of them or something? I don't even know what "tried, true, and proven" is supposed to mean here. I am not saying that they shouldn't likely have jobs somewhere. I don't think they should be in this organization anymore, and that is for the health of the organization.

Siehbiscuit
09-26-2013, 09:31 AM
I have said this numerous times. Ryan has done a great job at finding talent and has made some good trades that has rebuilt our minor league system, but for some reason during this seond go round he has only assembled a AAAA quality roster. The Twins have Joe Mauer, a HOF-caliber catcher, but next to nothing else. A failed starter in Perkins, that has become an excellent closer. Willingham surprised us with a standout year in 2012. But when it comes to building the MLB club, TR continues to acquire poor talent. Pressley, Escobar and Hernandez for Morneau and Liriano? Liriano's talent (although inconsistent) alone was worth keeping him. I don't think he is the guy that will get the Twins into contention.

Curt
09-26-2013, 10:42 AM
When your best player is injured it makes a poor team even worse.

This. Don't forget about Morneau. As disappointing as he was, he was the 2nd best hitter on the team.

With M&M: .242/.312/.381
Without: .232/.302/.367

SP may be Twins' biggest problem but it is not the only one.

jokin
09-26-2013, 12:13 PM
After 22 months of rebuilding, with only 19 months left, your blueprint for success is off with their heads? This is just lazy and a proven way to extend the rebuilding indefinitely. I would really encourage you to read the positive articles the national media is directing toward our tried, true, and proven organization.

Cleveland and Boston proved they could shorten the rebuild, not extend it.

Sconnie
09-26-2013, 12:39 PM
After 22 months of rebuilding, with only 19 months left, your blueprint for success is off with their heads? This is just lazy and a proven way to extend the rebuilding indefinitely. I would really encourage you to read the positive articles the national media is directing toward our tried, true, and proven organization. Jokin is dead on, The rebuild process doesn't have to be 5 full seasons of terrible baseball. Make no mistake, this rebuild started in 2011 whether we (or TR) knew it or not. At current rate the rebuild will be another 3 seasons. This team can't be a Pittsburg Pirates, it won't survive another decade of inneptitude like it did in the 90s.

IdahoPilgrim
09-26-2013, 01:13 PM
This team can't be a Pittsburg Pirates, it won't survive another decade of inneptitude like it did in the 90s.

I'm curious why you say this. Granted, it might not be fun to watch for a while, but I highly doubt they'll go under.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 01:27 PM
I can see a full 33% of the 40 man roster altering through release, trade, or DFA pretty easily. Much of what needs to happen involves ending the Twins tenure of Dave St. Peter, Terry Ryan, Mike Radcliff, Rob Antony, Brad Steil, Ron Gardenhire, and Rich Anderson.

This needs to be said, these people need to be named and called out, and that is that.

Shouldn't you be aiming at Deron Johnson instead of Radcliff? Johnson took over as draft guru in 08 and Gibson was the first pitcher he drafted that made the majors. Steil? He's been farm director for one year and it's been a pretty good year for the farm system. Several of the best prospects did two levels. St. Peter? Isn't he mostly about bringing in money/revenue etc and has nothing to do with baseball ops?

I get the Gardy/Anderson hate, I don't agree but I get it. Ryan hate is ridiculous. He's a great GM, proven and has already made significant strides forward on the rebuild.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 01:28 PM
Jokin is dead on, The rebuild process doesn't have to be 5 full seasons of terrible baseball. Make no mistake, this rebuild started in 2011 whether we (or TR) knew it or not. At current rate the rebuild will be another 3 seasons. This team can't be a Pittsburg Pirates, it won't survive another decade of inneptitude like it did in the 90s.

TR wasn't GM in 2011.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 01:36 PM
Cleveland and Boston proved they could shorten the rebuild, not extend it.

Cleveland suffered through 4 straight losing seasons before this year. Boston didn't really rebuild. They had one losing season with an insane manager and a ton of injuries. They also have significant financial resources the Twins don't.

Teams that have extended rebuilds the last decade or so - Pirates, Royals, Rays, Rangers, etc - have often changed GMs and FO turnover that makes rebuilds harder.

jokin
09-26-2013, 01:37 PM
I'm curious why you say this. Granted, it might not be fun to watch for a while, but I highly doubt they'll go under.

"it might not be fun to watch for a while"

Why should fans (who publicly financed a new ballpark) have to settle for this bromide? " A while" has already been 3 years, and there is already a general consensus, amongst both the pessimists and the optimists, that 2014 is already lost, making it year 4 of no fun. In the 21st Century of shorter attention spans, weak economy, increasing alternatives for the entertainment dollar and the general fickle nature of the casual fans and their relationship with a ballpark whose "new car smell" has an ever-shortening shelf life.... and most importantly, a miserly and highly disinterested and disengaged ownership that already previously has threatened to either move or kill the franchise, there have to be doubts about the long-term viability of the franchise in Minnesota if they maintain the status quo.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 01:40 PM
"it might not be fun to watch for a while"

Why should fans (who publicly financed a new ballpark) have to settle for this bromide? " A while" has already been 3 years, and there is already a general consensus, amongst both the pessimists and the optimists, that 2014 is already lost, making it year 4 of no fun. In the 21st Century of shorter attention spans, weak economy, increasing alternatives for the entertainment dollar and the general fickle nature of the casual fans and their relationship with a ballpark whose "new car smell" has an ever-shortening shelf life.... and most importantly, a miserly and highly disinterested and disengaged ownership that already previously has threatened to either move or kill the franchise, there have to be doubts about the long-term viability of the franchise in Minnesota if they maintain the status quo.

Sure, if baseball's economics change drastically long term bad teams might fold or move but it's really, really unlikely.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't bitch and moan about bad teams but I wouldn't worry about not having a team here in 2025.

jokin
09-26-2013, 01:44 PM
Cleveland suffered through 4 straight losing seasons before this year. Boston didn't really rebuild. They had one losing season with an insane manager and a ton of injuries. They also have significant financial resources the Twins don't.

Teams that have extended rebuilds the last decade or so - Pirates, Royals, Rays, Rangers, etc - have often changed GMs and FO turnover that makes rebuilds harder.

4 years in the wilderness for Cleveland, much like the Twins are about to experience, and it cost them much of their loyal fan base in the process. New management and ownership brought about immediate improvements and philosophical changes for the Indians. The Red Sox completely overhauled their roster and approach, as well as boldly correcting their personnel mistakes at the management level. The Sox actually cut their payroll in the process of making their improvements so your finance argument doesn't wash. No one has suggested that the Twins have to have an identical payroll to Boston's, just to make a full commitment to winning, by using all of the resources at their disposal- IOW, to do what ownership said they would do if the new ballpark was built for them. (Remember, the Twins told us in September of 2011 to expect several years of incremental payroll cutting, IOW, raising the "White Flag" was their stated strategy, ala the 1990s, post World Series 1991).

jokin
09-26-2013, 01:51 PM
Sure, if baseball's economics change drastically long term bad teams might fold or move but it's really, really unlikely.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't bitch and moan about bad teams but I wouldn't worry about not having a team here in 2025.

You really think it unlikely that the Pohlad's would sell the team to out-of-town interests in a heartbeat, if it served their interests? There's still plenty of room for a relocated franchise in booming TX, OK, Canada or the Carolinas.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 01:53 PM
4 years in the wilderness for Cleveland, much like the Twins are about to experience, and it cost them much of their loyal fan base in the process. New management and ownership brought about immediate improvements and philosophical changes for the Indians. The Red Sox completely overhauled their roster and approach, as well as boldly correcting their personnel mistakes at the management level. The Sox actually cut their payroll in the process of making their improvements so your finance argument doesn't wash. No one has suggested that the Twins have to have an identical payroll to Boston's, just to make a full commitment to winning use all of the resources at their disposal- IOW, to do what ownership said they would do if the new ballpark was built for them.

Twins have a more loyal fanbase than Cleveland - we actually out drew them this year. Red Sox dropped some bad contracts but still had significant $$ to throw out and had players returning from injuries. The Twins problems weren't the same.

IIRC, Cleveland's former GM Shapiro (who had a great run) was promoted to President after the 09 season. Chris Antonetti (who had been Shapiro's second in command) took over. And they've had the same owner since 2000. So not really a change in ownership or new ways of thinking. Just building up from a farm system and trades.

IdahoPilgrim
09-26-2013, 01:53 PM
"it might not be fun to watch for a while"

Why should fans (who publicly financed a new ballpark) have to settle for this bromide? " A while" has already been 3 years, and there is already a general consensus, amongst both the pessimists and the optimists, that 2014 is already lost, making it year 4 of no fun. In the 21st Century of shorter attention spans, weak economy, increasing alternatives for the entertainment dollar and the general fickle nature of the casual fans and their relationship with a ballpark whose "new car smell" has an ever-shortening shelf life.... and most importantly, a miserly and highly disinterested and disengaged ownership that already previously has threatened to either move or kill the franchise, there have to be doubts about the long-term viability of the franchise in Minnesota if they maintain the status quo.

I'm not saying that there are no reasons for fans to be disgruntled, but I find this to be extremely unlikely. You are welcome to disagree with me, but personally I think the case you make is substantially overstated.

I'll also add one other personal note: My comment about "no fun" was relative compared to a contending club. Personally, I have enjoyed the Twins season and I'm looking forward to next year. I love baseball, and I love Twins baseball. Just like I love playing golf, even though I suck at it. Even a bad day at the ballpark is better than a day in the office.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 01:55 PM
You really think it unlikely that the Pohlad's would sell the team to out-of-town interests in a heartbeat, if it served their interests? There's still plenty of room for a relocated franchise in booming TX, OK, Canada or the Carolinas.

Yeah, I hate the Pohlads but if they wanted to sell, they just as likely find a rich owner that would keep the team in MN. And other teams have territorial rights that make moves that much harder to do. So yeah, the Twins will still be in MN in 2025 even if they have losing seasons every year.

TheLeviathan
09-26-2013, 02:11 PM
. Ryan hate is ridiculous. He's a great GM, proven and has already made significant strides forward on the rebuild.

I don't think ridiculous is right here. Ryan's strengths may no longer be the right ones for this organization. We aren't the mid 90s Twins playing in the dome and this isn't 1992 in stats, analysis, development, and drafting. I haven't seen much in the way of Ryan altering his approach to better succeed in this landscape.

There are plenty of valid reasons for criticism, even if you still might endorse him staying.

jokin
09-26-2013, 02:21 PM
I'm not saying that there are no reasons for fans to be disgruntled, but I find this to be extremely unlikely. You are welcome to disagree with me, but personally I think the case you make is substantially overstated.

Look no further than Montreal for the possibilities for debacle. A very, very young, exciting and talented club with disinterested ownership and disaffected fanbase. If the Twins don't update their approach and thinking to match 21st Century baseball, even a pipeline of exciting young prospects doesn't guarantee long-term viability in Minnesota, if the ineptitude continues long-term. Does the average informed fan really feel comfortable with the level of commitment to winning of the ownership group? They have historically demonstrated that their interest in the team pretty much extends as far as the projected ROI. When potential contraction, or sale to Charlotte interests offered a possibly higher return on investment, they pursued such options with gusto, implicit blackmail to the fans to pony up in the process- a true "win-win" deal for ownership.

All of these unnecessary machinations, and all they really need to do to get 3.25M+ in attendance and soaring TV ratings is to expand the TF seating capacity to just over 40,000 and hire a forward-thinking and intrepid and dynamic- yet fiscally prudent- management group that puts a competitive product on the field in 7 years out of 10.

jokin
09-26-2013, 02:25 PM
Yeah, I hate the Pohlads but if they wanted to sell, they just as likely find a rich owner that would keep the team in MN. And other teams have territorial rights that make moves that much harder to do. So yeah, the Twins will still be in MN in 2025 even if they have losing seasons every year.

How did those territorial rights go for Baltimore when the Nats moved in?

Badsmerf
09-26-2013, 02:27 PM
After 22 months of rebuilding, with only 19 months left, your blueprint for success is off with their heads? This is just lazy and a proven way to extend the rebuilding indefinitely. I would really encourage you to read the positive articles the national media is directing toward our tried, true, and proven organization.

Is this a bit? Terry Ryan has been the GM of the Twins since 1995. Gardenhire has been the Manager since 2002 with Rick Anderson his pitching coach. Lets see how they have done.

Ryan: 9 losing seasons as a GM (and counting), 6 winning seasons, 4 playoff berths, 1 playoff series win. After an 8 year stretch of competitive baseball (which he was only the GM for 5) the Twins have been a bottom dweller for 3 straight years with no indication of this changing for next year. Tried and true? Maybe 5 years ago you could say that, not today.

Gardenhire: 8 winning seasons, 4 losing seasons. 6 playoff births, 1 series win. Lost last 6 playoff series, with the last 3 series being swept. You can argue Gardy has been a pretty good manager during the regular season. He has done pretty well with what he has been given, but has bombed in the playoffs... even when he had pretty talented teams. I'm not a huge fan of Gardy, but I also don't think all this losing is on him (the playoffs, however, are).

Anderson: Looking at combined stats for the pitching staff for his entire career and the Twins are pretty much average in everything. I'm not sure how else to evaluate him as a coach otherwise. His notable trait is not pitching for strikeouts and avoiding walks. Guys with good movement can excel with this approach (like Santana), guys that don't have much stuff can struggle (like Hendriks).

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 02:29 PM
How did those territorial rights go for Baltimore when the Nats moved in?

Not too well, they are still fighting over things today.
Orioles and Nationals have complicated relationship when it comes to marketing - Baltimore Sun (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-05/business/bs-bz-os-nats-marketing-20130505_1_orioles-and-nationals-washington-nationals-greg-bader)
Baseball Prospectus | Buying Off the Orioles (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3854)

MLB wouldn't want a team leaving a nice market like the TC to something like Tulsa. It's just not a realistic concern.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 02:43 PM
Is this a bit? Terry Ryan has been the GM of the Twins since 1995. Gardenhire has been the Manager since 2002 with Rick Anderson his pitching coach. Lets see how they have done.


The problem with a quick look like this is it doesn't really tell the whole story. The mid and late 90s Twins had significant payroll problems that factored deeply into their problems. And I think it's also fair to say that people - GMs, managers, lawyers etc - improve. So if Terry Ryan was or wasn't a good GM in 1996 isn't particularly relevant to whether or not he's a good GM now. We have seen that Ryan was the only small market GM in baseball that was able to change his teams nucleus of players on the fly and still make the playoffs. That's pretty impressive. And since he's come back he's made a number of strong trades so it doesn't seem like he's a confused old grandfather walking around.

He has shown the ability to rebuild a losing team and keep it good on a small budget. He's still doing things like that.

jokin
09-26-2013, 02:53 PM
Twins have a more loyal fanbase than Cleveland - we actually out drew them this year. Red Sox dropped some bad contracts but still had significant $$ to throw out and had players returning from injuries. The Twins problems weren't the same.

IIRC, Cleveland's former GM Shapiro (who had a great run) was promoted to President after the 09 season. Chris Antonetti (who had been Shapiro's second in command) took over. And they've had the same owner since 2000. So not really a change in ownership or new ways of thinking. Just building up from a farm system and trades.

You left out the fact that Shapiro lured Terry Francona to Cleveland. And he linked his contract with Francona's. If one goes, they all go, giving him huge new leverage in changing the dyanamic and commitment to winning now in Cleveland. This was reflected in the vast retooling of the team over the winter, as documented by Seth Stohs in his article from this morning.

Here's a good quote from what actually went down last October:



Why would the Dolan family agree to include such a provision -- let's call it the "Three Musketeers Clause" -- in Francona's contract?
Because he's Terry Francona!
He's the embodiment of everything the Indians, and their managers haven't been for most of the last 10 years: big winners, big spenders, big names.

At this particular juncture in both their histories, the Indians need Terry Francona more than he needs them. He brings instant credibility, relevancy and leadership to a franchise desperate for all three.


Oh for the Twins ownership to do something similar to shake up this sclerotic franchise.

jokin
09-26-2013, 02:59 PM
Not too well, they are still fighting over things today.
Orioles and Nationals have complicated relationship when it comes to marketing - Baltimore Sun (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-05/business/bs-bz-os-nats-marketing-20130505_1_orioles-and-nationals-washington-nationals-greg-bader)
Baseball Prospectus | Buying Off the Orioles (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3854)

MLB wouldn't want a team leaving a nice market like the TC to something like Tulsa. It's just not a realistic concern.

OK City has been a fabulous success for the NBA. San Antonio would be a great market for MLB, as would Charlotte, Nashville or Vancouver. They are all growing much faster than the Twin Cities, and with better demographics.

jokin
09-26-2013, 03:11 PM
The problem with a quick look like this is it doesn't really tell the whole story. The mid and late 90s Twins had significant payroll problems that factored deeply into their problems. And I think it's also fair to say that people - GMs, managers, lawyers etc - improve. So if Terry Ryan was or wasn't a good GM in 1996 isn't particularly relevant to whether or not he's a good GM now. We have seen that Ryan was the only small market GM in baseball that was able to change his teams nucleus of players on the fly and still make the playoffs. That's pretty impressive. And since he's come back he's made a number of strong trades so it doesn't seem like he's a confused old grandfather walking around.

He has shown the ability to rebuild a losing team and keep it good on a small budget. He's still doing things like that.

I don't recall the number of good trades he's made. One, was baked in the cake from 2010 (Span), and the only other one I can think that fits your parameters came out of the blue unexpectedly from the Phillies, and it's fair to say that the jury has yet to determine that it can be classified as a strong trade in the Twins favor. (And you certainly can't be calling the trades of Liriano, Morneau and Carroll as strong trades).

jokin
09-26-2013, 03:13 PM
Not too well, they are still fighting over things today.
Orioles and Nationals have complicated relationship when it comes to marketing - Baltimore Sun (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-05-05/business/bs-bz-os-nats-marketing-20130505_1_orioles-and-nationals-washington-nationals-greg-bader)
Baseball Prospectus | Buying Off the Orioles (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3854)

MLB wouldn't want a team leaving a nice market like the TC to something like Tulsa. It's just not a realistic concern.

And yet the move still happened.

gunnarthor
09-26-2013, 03:21 PM
And yet the move still happened.

There's a pro team in Tulsa?

Steve Penz
09-26-2013, 03:38 PM
I have a bet rolling with a buddy. It is for dinner. At 68 wins or less he wins, at 69 its a push and at 70 I win. For the sake of filling my belly with a Blucy and some tator tots from the Blue Door I really hope they go 4-0. 2 weeks ago I appeared to be in good shape for this bet. I think I will be going hungry.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
09-26-2013, 03:51 PM
Really we just need to abandon this whole "Twins Way" deal. I can't stand it and believe the opposite of all of it. HRs and power trump small ball and defense, strikeouts over PtC, and the no Platoon policy discussed on the other page.

Thrylos
09-26-2013, 04:32 PM
I can see a full 33% of the 40 man roster altering through release, trade, or DFA pretty easily. Much of what needs to happen involves ending the Twins tenure of Dave St. Peter, Terry Ryan, Mike Radcliff, Rob Antony, Brad Steil, Ron Gardenhire, and Rich Anderson.

This needs to be said, these people need to be named and called out, and that is that.

Agreed with a couple of exceptions:

Subtract Brad Steil (he has already in a year started undoing the mess that Rantz has done in 50)
Add Deron Johnson and Vern Followell & Vavry & Scotty & Co

Thrylos
09-26-2013, 04:38 PM
Ryan hate is ridiculous. He's a great GM, proven and has already made significant strides forward on the rebuild.

The only thing that Ryan has proven is to lead teams to worse records that his predecessors, twice. The MacPhail Twins had better record than the Ryan I Twins and the Smith (speaking about hate) Twins had better record than the Ryan II Twins. And this is an undisputed fact. Add the other fact of zero american league pennants and zero world series rings in way too many years of being a GM, and you got the whole of Ryan's tenure: awfulness to mediocrity to awfulness.

One can spin the truth any way he/she wants, but it does not change it. And if some wish to strive for and celebrate mediocrity, it is fine. Some of us want excellence. And Ryan has proven to not be capable of that.

Winston Smith
09-26-2013, 05:39 PM
FYI:
The Twins signed a 30-year ironclad lease with the Minnesota Ballpark Authority during the summer of 2007.

glunn
09-26-2013, 06:27 PM
One can spin the truth any way he/she wants, but it does not change it. And if some wish to strive for and celebrate mediocrity, it is fine. Some of us want excellence. And Ryan has proven to not be capable of that.

Moderator note -- this is borderline trolling. Please be more respectful of people who disagree with you.

jokin
09-27-2013, 12:47 AM
FYI:
The Twins signed a 30-year ironclad lease with the Minnesota Ballpark Authority during the summer of 2007.

Historically, 30 year leases aren't worth the iron they're clad with, if the majority of the owners accede to a potential move to take place.

SpiritofVodkaDave
09-27-2013, 07:10 AM
This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.

Dumping TR makes no sense, the twins now have the number 1 farm in baseball, he deserves two more years to right the ship.

Gardy is a toss up, but if you fire him now you might as well have fired him two years ago since he literally had terrible rosters to deal with. I still maintain you won't find a better manager, and Gardy would be scooped up in about 5 seconds. Grass is always greener etc etc

SpiritofVodkaDave
09-27-2013, 07:13 AM
Additionally, the twins have very little commited money wise in 2014/2015, and have the best farm in baseball. It's not hard to see why a turnaround isn't going to be as hard as some folks believe, hell before Mauer went down (and morneau trade) it's likely the twins would have won 72-74 games this year,(an improvement over last)

BHtwins
09-27-2013, 09:45 AM
I like Terry Ryan and I have a ton of respect for him....but its just time for some new blood from top to bottom. Id be ok with him sticking around if he could surround himself with good progressive baseball thinkers.

There isnt a single coach I would keep with the exception of possibly BP.

I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.

There is very few industries where upper and front line managers would survive what the Twins have gone through the last 3 years. They had every thing they asked for to make themselves long term competitive and they screwed it up.

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-27-2013, 10:35 AM
I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.


Thank you for pointing this out. One thing that bothers me is Gardenhire's relationship with Aaron Hicks, after the Twins basically handed him the CF job. It's inexcusable instead of harnessing that confidence and coachability he publicly put him down at every opportunity for not being "old school" enough. A guy like Gardy needs to adjust to what the "kids these days" are like. Bottom line is Gardy may have been great with a group of veterans, give him his due, but (among other things) he's not a guy who has demonstrated patience with prospects.

Shane Wahl
09-27-2013, 11:11 AM
Agreed with a couple of exceptions:

Subtract Brad Steil (he has already in a year started undoing the mess that Rantz has done in 50)
Add Deron Johnson and Vern Followell & Vavry & Scotty & Co

Fair enough about Steil. I don't like adding Deron Johnson to the list because I don't think he has done a bad job at all. I don't recall who Followell is at the moment and the other two were givens!

howieramone
09-27-2013, 11:19 AM
I like Terry Ryan and I have a ton of respect for him....but its just time for some new blood from top to bottom. Id be ok with him sticking around if he could surround himself with good progressive baseball thinkers.

There isnt a single coach I would keep with the exception of possibly BP.

I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.

There is very few industries where upper and front line managers would survive what the Twins have gone through the last 3 years. They had every thing they asked for to make themselves long term competitive and they screwed it up. But they were competitive long term and 3 years of drafting high and they will be competitive again.

IdahoPilgrim
09-27-2013, 11:23 AM
Historically, 30 year leases aren't worth the iron they're clad with, if the majority of the owners accede to a potential move to take place.

Local history itself shows this is not always the case.

jokin
09-27-2013, 03:24 PM
TR wasn't GM in 2011.

Actually, he was the GM in 2011, becoming the new GM on Nov. 7, 2011.

jokin
09-27-2013, 03:34 PM
This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.

Dumping TR makes no sense, the twins now have the number 1 farm in baseball, he deserves two more years to right the ship.

Gardy is a toss up, but if you fire him now you might as well have fired him two years ago since he literally had terrible rosters to deal with. I still maintain you won't find a better manager, and Gardy would be scooped up in about 5 seconds. Grass is always greener etc etc


The posters on Twins Daily have proffered close to a dozen high-quality names, both of the old school variety and the young and hungry up-and-comers whose pedigree and bona fides match or exceed Gardy's. The main point being, staleness and expired shelf life are a reality, and what was once a great fit no longer appears to be the case........

for a myriad of reasons it's time to clear the air and prepare with a fresh approach for the next wave of players.

jokin
09-27-2013, 03:46 PM
Local history itself shows this is not always the case.

Let's see how it plays out. We have an owner who is far more passionate about winning and hoisting trophies and champagne bottles at the Cannes Film Festival than doing the same after a World Series championship. The owner's close friend, the Commissioner of Baseball, has announced his retirement in January, 2015. The timing for a sale most favorable to the Pohlad's may be more opportune under Selig's watch than after.

The Upper Midwest would be such an incredible market with a committed owner and forward-thinking management, a "St Louis North", if you will. I think it's reasonable not to trust that we can get that outcome with the former used car dealer as Commissioner, in conjunction with the Hollywood-producer son of the mortgage-forecloser, making that decision.

Jerr
09-27-2013, 04:27 PM
This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.

Dumping TR makes no sense, the twins now have the number 1 farm in baseball, he deserves two more years to right the ship.

Gardy is a toss up, but if you fire him now you might as well have fired him two years ago since he literally had terrible rosters to deal with. I still maintain you won't find a better manager, and Gardy would be scooped up in about 5 seconds. Grass is always greener etc etc

Well stated and brought this thread back to the subject. Thanks!

ashburyjohn
09-27-2013, 05:01 PM
I don't recall who Followell is at the moment

Vern Followell only has the most awesome name for a Pro Scouting Coordinator I could ever hope to encounter, unless there exists a Sign M. McAllstar.

jokin
09-27-2013, 05:19 PM
This thread has gone way off topic, the twins aren't going to move and aren't in any danger to move, one more bad season or two isn't going to cause that, it's not how baseball works.

Besides, teams like Miami, Tampa bay, Oakland, and more would move wayyyyyy before the twins would be on the chopping block.






Well stated and brought this thread back to the subject. Thanks!

The topic is the dreadful state of the Twins. There is blame to share all around for this ongoing 3- and soon-to-be 4-year disaster. And there are consequences for this incredible ineptitude, from ownership on down to the bullpen coach. The ramifications for this disaster on the future of the Twins franchise are also germane to the topic. The owner has demonstrated his disinterest in the team, other than in terms of a vehicle to make a very decent high return with low-risk on his investment. Their first instinct during the 2011 debacle was to make it known that they would be aggressively shedding payroll and dismantling a team that had had the 4th best record in baseball and record-setting attendance just one year before. No one said the Twins are on "the chopping block", they've used that tactic once before, been there, done that. But there is a very real possibility that the Twins could be sold; from the beginning of their ownership tenure, it has been documented that the junior Pohlad's would rather be involved in almost anything other than baseball. Their disinterest has resulted in a sclerotic and insular organization, that essentially runs dangerously on a set of outmoded auto-pilot rules thought-up in a manual written 20 years ago.

Miami, Tampa and Oakland are the beneficiaries of revenue-sharing, different animals from the Twins altogether, just because those issues need addressing, it is irrelevant to what the Pohlad's might opt to do with their franchise. I'm guessing that Pohlad has learned to not appreciate being, literally, on the other side of the coin, in having to write checks to support the have-nots, instead of being the past beneficiary of those subsidies. It really isn't that hard to envision a sale of the team if the number-crunchers say it's the most logical course of action. And with their close ally, Commisioner Selig, retiring in 2015, the Pohlad's might decide their best deal could be had with Selig still in charge. A succesor out-of-town ownership group is a problematic proposition, to say the least.

diehardtwinsfan
09-27-2013, 08:00 PM
I like Terry Ryan and I have a ton of respect for him....but its just time for some new blood from top to bottom. Id be ok with him sticking around if he could surround himself with good progressive baseball thinkers.

There isnt a single coach I would keep with the exception of possibly BP.

I dont like Gardy, I dont think managers in any business can be successful by playing favorites and singling out team members for individual scrutiny. For far too long he has played obvious favorites with players and done this rude passive-aggressive thing of singling players out for scrutiny through little snarky comments. I hate that and always have.. Thats not how you build a team. On top of that he has never thought outside of the very narrow box of traditional baseball strategy. We about threw a party when he actually <gasp> moved his best OBP guy up in the order. That says it all to me.

There is very few industries where upper and front line managers would survive what the Twins have gone through the last 3 years. They had every thing they asked for to make themselves long term competitive and they screwed it up.

No votes for Bobby Cuellar?

BHtwins
09-27-2013, 09:27 PM
But they were competitive long term and 3 years of drafting high and they will be competitive again.

3 90 loss seasons is not competitive. They're staring a 4th 90 loss season right in the face as well unless some really good moves are made this off-season.

Its just time for a fresh start