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View Full Version : Article: Liam Hendriks Has Run Out of Chances



Nick Nelson
09-18-2013, 09:16 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2347-Liam-Hendriks-Has-Run-Out-of-Chances

Siehbiscuit
09-18-2013, 09:36 AM
I was all for giving this guy a chance as well. But he is just another clone of Blackburn, DeVries, Walters, and all the other soft tossing AAAA pitcher this organization has. We need more guys like Meyers and May that can get 6-10+ strikeouts per night.

Thegrin
09-18-2013, 09:44 AM
He is young. Hendricks can still learn to pitch. He can learn to move the ball up and down, in and out while changing speeds with each pitch. If he learns to pitch, his Strikeout rate will improve, his groundball rate will improve, and his location will improve. This is what the minor leagues are for. We have Albers and Diamond, who are a couple years older, and they are learning to be pitchers. Hendricks can learn to do it as well.

DAM DC Twins Fans
09-18-2013, 10:36 AM
I believe he is young enough (24) to get another chance. Maybe here, maybe a change of scenery. Cut him off the 40 man roster. If he is claimed, so be it. If not, give him a Rochester contract and a spring training invite.

Kwak
09-18-2013, 10:47 AM
Learn to pitch. Except the Twins don't teach pitching. The Twins preach promote (or punish) pitch-count and "attacking the strikezone". Sadly, pitching is short-circuited by throwing, and the results at the major league level show exactly that. In order for Hendriks to "learn pitching" he will have to do so for a team that actually teaches pitching. Given his age and baseball level (AAA) I am skeptical anyone will invest the resources for Hendriks. It seems his career will have to be as a relief pitcher.

Shane Wahl
09-18-2013, 10:52 AM
I would not keep him on the 40-man roster. I don't know what else to do with him. It was frustrating Monday because he hit 94 at least once. I don't remember EVER seeing that from him. He was consistently at 92. But it was rather straight and it was also the only pitch he could throw for a strike. They took every breaking ball for a ball. I don't know if I am exaggerating at all there. And they kept trying to throw the damn thing on almost every other pitch.

The Dunn smash to just under the yellow line and into Presley's glove was the only true well-hit ball. But missed bats? Almost none. They fouled off every good fastball he threw and then blooped or "duck snorted" (as Hawk would say if it was the opposing team's hitters) the rest.

Given his youth, I would try to get him to Rochester next year, hope he does well there, and then try to add him in to a trade deal with somebody at the deadline for somebody.

Shane Wahl
09-18-2013, 10:53 AM
And "relief pitcher" isn't a terrible idea.

TheLeviathan
09-18-2013, 11:35 AM
This guy just baffles me. How can you have his repetoire and his minor league success and still be this awful?

I almost want to keep giving him chances just because I don't get why he sucks.

Seth Stohs
09-18-2013, 11:49 AM
I'm a huge believer in Liam Hendriks, have been for a long time. I still believe that he has the stuff to be a decent 3/4 starter. he's still young. He's very smart. Plenty of pitchers have been long-term successful for a long time with less stuff. Seems to be a little between the ears with him right now. I think he'll be decent down the line. I hate to see the Twins let him go. But, this might be a classic change-of-scenery thing.

mike wants wins
09-18-2013, 11:49 AM
No matter what, TR can't assume he's a starter next year. He has to assume he gets nothing from Liam, and be happy if he does somehw. count me in the shocked how bad he's been again this year.

COtwin
09-18-2013, 12:22 PM
I think that there is still a chance he figures it out. If we let him go, I think he ends up somewhere else. I will be pissed if we remove him from the 40 man, but keep Pedro or Cole, or (insert other pitcher with no upside). If we are gonna clean house then lets do it across the board.

ashburyjohn
09-18-2013, 12:23 PM
Could a different pitching coach be the change-of-scenery he needs? I'm not in the Anderson Is Terrible camp, but sometimes a switch to someone else that is good but has a different approach could make a difference with the non-performers on the roster. The question about the 40-man slot is vexing of course - that roster is littered with marginal cases like Liam.

Marta Shearing
09-18-2013, 12:40 PM
Him and swarzak should have switched rolls long ago.

cmathewson
09-18-2013, 02:30 PM
I'm a huge believer in Liam Hendriks, have been for a long time. I still believe that he has the stuff to be a decent 3/4 starter. he's still young. He's very smart. Plenty of pitchers have been long-term successful for a long time with less stuff. Seems to be a little between the ears with him right now. I think he'll be decent down the line. I hate to see the Twins let him go. But, this might be a classic change-of-scenery thing.

I can't think of a suspect upon which we have disagreed so starkly. Maybe Slowey.

I didn't want them to give him another chance this year, let alone two. I've seen enough of him to know he's never going to amount to much as a starter in the big leagues. If you go back into the anals of Twins pitching history, you will be hard pressed to find a guy who was allowed to fail so many times and for so long. Sorry Liam, the truth hurts.

howieramone
09-18-2013, 02:41 PM
Him and swarzak should have switched rolls long ago.

Swarzak has finally found a spot where he shines, why make a change? He's not going to fix the black hole, but appears he can contribute to the future as a long reliever. There does come a time to take what you can get and move on to the next candidate. Not really unlike Perkins and both have been in the organization since 2004.

Oxtung
09-18-2013, 02:43 PM
I can't think of a suspect upon which we have disagreed so starkly. Maybe Slowey.

I didn't want them to give him another chance this year, let alone two. I've seen enough of him to know he's never going to amount to much as a starter in the big leagues. If you go back into the anals of Twins pitching history, you will be hard pressed to find a guy who was allowed to fail so many times and for so long. Sorry Liam, the truth hurts.

The Twins annals are filled with pitchers that have been given long leashes despite their failure. Frankie Rodriguez, Pat Mahomes, Jose Parra, Scott Aldred and Rich Robertson all pitched more innings than Hendriks for the Twins with hideous ERA's. I only had to look at 2 years in the late 90's to find these guys. Hell the poster boy for failure as a starter is LaTroy Hawkins. 521 innings pitched and a 6.21 ERA. Liam pales in comparison.

cmathewson
09-18-2013, 03:16 PM
The Twins annals are filled with pitchers that have been given long leashes despite their failure. Frankie Rodriguez, Pat Mahomes, Jose Parra, Scott Aldred and Rich Robertson all pitched more innings than Hendriks for the Twins with hideous ERA's. I only had to look at 2 years in the late 90's to find these guys. Hell the poster boy for failure as a starter is LaTroy Hawkins. 521 innings pitched and a 6.21 ERA. Liam pales in comparison.

First of all, if you had to pick a decade with the worst pitching in Twins history (besides the teens), you'd pick the 90s.

Secondly, I don't like your comps.

Frankie Rodriguez pitched 206 innings one year. He had three better years than Hendriks. The next year he sucked and was gone.

Aldred Pitched in parts of two seasons and was gone, after he had been in the major leagues for six years

Robertson had a 3.83 ERA his first year and three shutouts in the next. In his third year, he sucked and was gone

Parra pitched parts of two seasons (mostly as a reliever) and not more than 70 innings in either of them

Pat Mahomes and LeTroy Hawkins were both former phenoms who threw in the upper 90s. They are still perhaps the best comps for Liam considering that both had successful careers as relievers after leaving the Twins. But Liam doesn't throw that hard, so I kind of doubt it.

Finally, I don't think innings is the best measure of how many chances a guy gets. Liam Hendriks has been given five chances. In each case, he has been historically bad. The reason he has not racked up innings is he's so bad, they have to pull him in the fourth inning a lot and end up sending him down. Then he pitches OK at AAA, and they call him back up again, where he is horrible. If he was at all good, he would have put up more innings than all but Rodriguez on your list.

Oxtung
09-18-2013, 03:31 PM
First of all, if you had to pick a decade with the worst pitching in Twins history (besides the teens), you'd pick the 90s.

Secondly, I don't like your comps.

Frankie Rodriguez pitched 206 innings one year. He had three better years than Hendriks. The next year he sucked and was gone.

Aldred Pitched in parts of two seasons and was gone, after he had been in the major leagues for six years

Robertson had a 3.83 ERA his first year and three shutouts in the next. In his third year, he sucked and was gone

Parra pitched parts of two seasons (mostly as a reliever) and not more than 70 innings in either of them

Pat Mahomes and LeTroy Hawkins were both former phenoms who threw in the upper 90s. They are still perhaps the best comps for Liam considering that both had successful careers as relievers after leaving the Twins. But Liam doesn't throw that hard, so I kind of doubt it.

Finally, I don't think innings is the best measure of how many chances a guy gets. Liam Hendriks has been given five chances. In each case, he has been historically bad. The reason he has not racked up innings is he's so bad, they have to pull him in the fourth inning a lot and end up sending him down. Then he pitches OK at AAA, and they call him back up again, where he is horrible. If he was at all good, he would have put up more innings than all but Rodriguez on your list.

I'm not arguing Hendriks is a good starter (or will become one). I am saying the Twins let pitchers struggle for quite a while before they pull the plug. Hendriks is not a rarity. I would be interested to see what he brings to the bullpen. Perkins wasn't lighting up radar guns as a starter either....

Danchat
09-18-2013, 03:31 PM
I have to agree with Shane. Try him out in the bullpen, and if that doesn't work, aidos.
I'd take him any day over De Vries and Walters, but that's it. I think he's done as a starter.

beckmt
09-18-2013, 04:13 PM
Move him to the pen now. Then off the 40 man roster(along with the rest of the scholarship players. If he clears waviers, send him to Rochester and try and get something for him. Do not give him another chance.

Rosterman
09-18-2013, 04:45 PM
The chances are good that he would pass thru waivers. Not sure if he becomes a minor league free agent then or not. I don't really see anby otehr team claiming him and letting him hold a 40-man spot. I can see any number of teams giving him a tryout (because of his age). I'm not sure if he would work in the long-relief role. Not even sure if he is necessary for short relief or to be groomed as a closer. With his success at AAA, he would be just as good as any number of other guys, and maybe have a resurgence like Perkins down the line (we remember that period in Perkins time, right). But for now, I see him looking for a job, rather than worrying about a job.

Shane Wahl
09-18-2013, 06:32 PM
He was dialing it up to 94. Maybe in the bullpen that becomes regular 93-95.

lyndon
09-18-2013, 07:01 PM
I can't think of a suspect upon which we have disagreed so starkly. Maybe Slowey.

I didn't want them to give him another chance this year, let alone two. I've seen enough of him to know he's never going to amount to much as a starter in the big leagues. If you go back into the anals of Twins pitching history, you will be hard pressed to find a guy who was allowed to fail so many times and for so long. Sorry Liam, the truth hurts.

I'm pretty sure we're in the anals of Twins pitching history right now.;)

Alex
09-18-2013, 08:49 PM
I'm pretty sure we're in the anals of Twins pitching history right now.;)

OT: This reminded me of Tobias (from Arrested Development) and his combination career...

cmathewson
09-18-2013, 09:13 PM
I'm pretty sure we're in the anals of Twins pitching history right now.;)

I was wondering whether someone would catch that. And I agree. I've been following the team since 67 and I never remember a three-year stretch with worse pitching. Even in the 90s we had guys like Tapani and Radke.

jorgenswest
09-18-2013, 09:27 PM
Franks Viola was given 56 starts in his first two seasons. His second season he had an ERA+ of 77. Brad Radke led the league in home runs given up his first two seasons.

They were both given a long sustained opportunity in the majors. They weren't pitching each start as if it was their last. I don't know if Hendriks was worth the same opportunity given his success in the minors. The Twins will never know. For his sake, I hope they release him and a team like the Pirates gives him a fresh start.

Steve Johnson
09-18-2013, 09:40 PM
Why are we talking about dumping him from the 40-Man Roster? There is so much dead-weight on it currently, why dump a 24-year old Starting Pitcher?

And it's not like there are guys at AA he's blocking by being at AAA.

He has ongoing issues at the ML level, and given his mediocre performance at AAA, maybe he's in decline, or maybe something's wrong. Here's what you do with a 24-year old pitcher who's not out of options: you bring him to spring training, and from there he either makes the opening day roster, or he goes to AAA.

USAFChief
09-18-2013, 09:45 PM
Why are we talking about dumping him from the 40-Man Roster? There is so much dead-weight on it currently, why dump a 24-year old Starting Pitcher?

And it's not like there are guys at AA he's blocking by being at AAA.

He has ongoing issues at the ML level, and given his mediocre performance at AAA, maybe he's in decline, or maybe something's wrong. Here's what you do with a 24-year old pitcher who's not out of options: you bring him to spring training, and from there he either makes the opening day roster, or he goes to AAA.
According to the article he's out of options next yr.

DuluthFan
09-18-2013, 10:16 PM
According to the article, Hendricks is out of options. If that is correct, that means he must be on the major league roster next year. There would be no sending him to Rochester to work on things. Unfortunately this is one of the problems with bringing up the young players too early. They are wasting their mlb service time when they should be developing and learning at the lower levels. If Hendricks is removed from the 40 man roster, he can still be resigned to a minor league deal.

notoriousgod71
09-18-2013, 10:39 PM
It really doesn't matter if we let Hendricks go or not. We have a dozen more of the exact same pitcher waiting in AAA.

gil4
09-18-2013, 10:48 PM
He still has a minor league track record that says something could click and he could become a decent pitcher. The change of scenery could be at Target Field next year - I expect to see a lot of new faces, especially in the coaching ranks.

Shane Wahl
09-19-2013, 12:44 AM
He can pass through waivers and be in Rochester. Or they can keep him on the 40-man. I didn't look at the 40-man again before making my claim that they should drop him from it. Now that I look at it, good god. There is actually no way that they shouldn't keep him in some capacity.

Look, I have to say: if you believe Rick Anderson is a pitching coach worthy of a job, I have a Brooklyn Bridge to sell you. He needs to go away before there are such decisions made. Hendriks is either in the bullpen or gets another chance with a pitching coach is actually capable.

What I mean is that if this PC is still in the org and not properly fired *today* then Hendriks is one of several who will need to go away. If this PC is gone, then find a way to give the younger guys another opportunity.

108 Double Stitches
09-19-2013, 09:27 AM
If the Twins can move on from Justin Morneau, who did so much for this organization in the past, it can move on from Rick Anderson.

I would rather give Liam Hindriks a chance with a new Twins pitching coach than Rick Anderson a chance with another Twins minor leaguer. Either way, one of them is likely going to be with another organization next year. And they might do very well with that organziation. But they haven't done well together.

mike wants wins
09-19-2013, 10:02 AM
If the Twins can move on from Justin Morneau, who did so much for this organization in the past, it can move on from Rick Anderson.

I would rather give Liam Hindriks a chance with a new Twins pitching coach than Rick Anderson a chance with another Twins minor leaguer. Either way, one of them is likely going to be with another organization next year. And they might do very well with that organziation. But they haven't done well together.


Great post.

DJL44
09-19-2013, 10:23 AM
Better comps for Liam Hendriks - Todd Ritchie and Mike Lincoln. He may give some team 300 decent innings but he's very unlikely to be someone they kick themselves over.

Kwak
09-19-2013, 11:36 AM
I wonder if the Twins were using TD as a sounding board? Article on Liam Hendriks, then today I read in PRAVDA that DeVries will get the start against Oakland replacing Hendriks in the rotation. Hmmm.

mike wants wins
09-19-2013, 12:01 PM
Pravda :)

Shane Wahl
09-19-2013, 12:08 PM
Pravda :)

John McCain and Liam Hendriks.

LewFordLives
09-19-2013, 12:09 PM
I'm not willing to give up on Hendriks. There has been some flashes (albeit brief) where's he's shown he can get big league hitters out. When he's working quickly he seems to have a little extra zip and movement on his fastball. When men get on base he starts walking around the mound and overthinks things. The game just comes to a stop and things start to sprial out of control. But that said, he's only 24, and I think his problems can be fixed.

If he has to pass through waivers to stay with the organization next year, than so be it. But if it's possible to keep him around, I think it might be worth it.

By the way...still absolutely no love for Cole DeVries on these boards. I don't see why. I'm hoping he gets to make a couple starts before the season is over.

Shane Wahl
09-19-2013, 12:09 PM
By the way, my above posts about Hendriks might be the most least-committal posts I have ever made at TD. His accent makes me laugh so that might sway me.

Shane Wahl
09-19-2013, 12:11 PM
How many games are left now? How about a damn different starting pitcher for each of them? It's like when bars have those "drink X number of different beers and get a t-shirt" things. Can we get some t-shirts out of the deal?

IdahoPilgrim
09-19-2013, 12:12 PM
I have great difficulty seeing this as a pitching coach problem. Given that Hendriks has been ineffective from day one, that would mean that our coaching staff managed to corrupt a budding young pitcher in almost record time. A case can perhaps be made that the coaching staff has failed to help Hendriks adjust to a higher level of competition, but that assumes he has the stuff to make it in the first place, which in my mind is by no means certain. This feels like another Slama situation - someone who has great stuff in the minor leagues but, for whatever reason, it just doesn't translate into major league success. This isn't that unusual a story, at this or any other club.

IdahoPilgrim
09-19-2013, 12:16 PM
How many games are left now? How about a damn different starting pitcher for each of them? It's like when bars have those "drink X number of different beers and get a t-shirt" things. Can we get some t-shirts out of the deal?

Reminds me of a quip Reusse made last year during the revolving door rotation we had then - he noted that rookies often have initial success, based simply on the unfamiliarity factor. He jokingly said they should get 162 starting pitchers and have one start each game of the season.

Shane Wahl
09-19-2013, 12:24 PM
I kind of like the idea of having two people in the bullpen who shift between long relief and LOOGY/ROOGY (ha) depending on the situation. Enter Andrew Albers and Liam Hendriks.

I am also willing to try just about anything out of the gates in 2014. Four outfielders? Perkins and Burton pitching the first inning back and forth? Starting the DSL team as the Twins team? Smoking crack?

matthew0211
09-19-2013, 01:01 PM
Mr. Hendriks has one option left. He was called up (added to the 40-man roster) in Sept. 2011, and was optioned to AAA in both 2012 and 2013.

Not that it should have any bearing as to where (if) he fits into the team's plans in 2014.

Shane Wahl
09-19-2013, 01:22 PM
Mr. Hendriks has one option left. He was called up (added to the 40-man roster) in Sept. 2011, and was optioned to AAA in both 2012 and 2013.

Not that it should have any bearing as to where (if) he fits into the team's plans in 2014.

That is correct, as Jeremy's page clearly indicates. Option him if need be and let him work out of the 'pen in Rochester. Seriously.

jimbo92107
09-19-2013, 01:33 PM
He is young. Hendricks can still learn to pitch. He can learn to move the ball up and down, in and out while changing speeds with each pitch. If he learns to pitch, his Strikeout rate will improve, his groundball rate will improve, and his location will improve. This is what the minor leagues are for. We have Albers and Diamond, who are a couple years older, and they are learning to be pitchers. Hendricks can learn to do it as well.

Problem is, the headline here is correct. His chances to become a pitcher here in Minnesota probably have run out. He may indeed learn to be a pitcher and do quite well, but unless he clears waivers and signs a minor league deal for another year in Rochester, it won't happen.

Meanwhile, a team with an ambitious pitching coach that's looking for a promising young arm could snap up Hendriks and stash him in their MLB bullpen for a season to see what they can develop. It's a fairly low-risk move, and it might pan out. Frankly, it's in the best interest of the player to get some different pitching coaches to see if they can find a good pitcher in there somewhere. If it happens, I wouldn't be surprised.

Shane Wahl
09-19-2013, 01:46 PM
Yeah, aside from just looking at Hendriks' performance, you have to have empathy for a guy who went through the system, was actually good-great throughout and then for whatever reason has faltered big time in the majors. Given other debacles on this staff, I am not willing to simply give Hendriks the blame here. And I do feel for the guy, as dumb as it sounds, for these big struggles. If you have listened to interviews with Seth, he knows the game well. And he WAS hitting 93-94 Monday night. I don't know. Clearly the Twins can shed some bullpen money (Burton) to then spend on starters, so Hendriks to the 'pen seems like a legit move.

ltwedt
09-19-2013, 02:28 PM
Seriously - Who on the Twins long list of "starters" would be in the "bigs" if it weren't for the Twins? Yeah - that's what I think, too. Nobody! Put them all out there on waivers - they will all pass through - Maybe it's time to put "Andy" on waivers, too!

Steve Johnson
09-19-2013, 02:39 PM
According to the article he's out of options next yr.

Well okay, that's different and I stand corrected. But still, we don't have to make any sort of issue of this until the end of March. If he has a good spring, I'm guessing the Twins do not pick up enough talent this offseason to warrant any reason to keep him off the ML roster. If he's a mess, he likely passes waivers anyway.

cmathewson
09-23-2013, 06:25 AM
Franks Viola was given 56 starts in his first two seasons. His second season he had an ERA+ of 77. Brad Radke led the league in home runs given up his first two seasons.

They were both given a long sustained opportunity in the majors. They weren't pitching each start as if it was their last. I don't know if Hendriks was worth the same opportunity given his success in the minors. The Twins will never know. For his sake, I hope they release him and a team like the Pirates gives him a fresh start.

So now he's the next Brad Radke waiting for an opportunity? Wow. FWIW, Radke's first three seasons in the majors:

42-30 4.2 ERA 652 IP

Hendrik's first three seasons in the majors:
2-13 6.0 ERA 151.1 IP

Radke was a stud from Day 1 at a younger age than Hendriks' debut. There is simply no comparison between them.

ThePuck
09-23-2013, 02:07 PM
So now he's the next Brad Radke waiting for an opportunity? Wow. FWIW, Radke's first three seasons in the majors:

42-30 4.2 ERA 652 IP

Hendrik's first three seasons in the majors:
2-13 6.0 ERA 151.1 IP

Radke was a stud from Day 1 at a younger age than Hendriks' debut. There is simply no comparison between them.

You sure that's a fair stat comparison? Radke's first season his ERA was over 5.32 in 180+ innings. After 15 starts, his ERA was over 6.00. After 28 starts, his ERA was 5.32, Hendriks after 28 starts is 5.95.

Radke was given a very long rope and people would have been calling for his head on this site if his rookie season was happening now.

snepp
09-23-2013, 02:31 PM
You sure that's a fair stat comparison? Radke's first season his ERA was over 5.32 in 180+ innings. After 15 starts, his ERA was over 6.00. After 28 starts, his ERA was 5.32, Hendriks after 28 starts is 5.95.

Radke was given a very long rope and people would have been calling for his head on this site if his rookie season was happening now.

Context required.

The average team in the AL scored 5.1 runs per game in Radke's rookie year, 91 era+. It's been roughly 4.4 runs per game during Hendriks time, 69 era+.

The comparison is a pretty poor one.

ThePuck
09-23-2013, 02:45 PM
Context required.

The average team in the AL scored 5.1 runs per game in Radke's rookie year, 91 era+. It's been roughly 4.4 runs per game during Hendriks time, 69 era+.

The comparison is a pretty poor one.

That is true...however, there is no way to know for sure how he would have pitched in this era either...and his rookie year sure didn't make him a stud. That's the real problem when these kind of comparison even get broken out. Your point is taken and it's a good one, though.

Kwak
09-23-2013, 03:36 PM
Hendriks fits the mold of too many Twins-developed starting pitchers--no "finish-em-off" pitch. These guys are trained with a regimen of pitch-count management, "pound the strike-zone" mentality that often succeeds in the minor leagues. But every team is fully aware of "The Twins Way" of pitching and simply cherry-picks the pitches. In yesterday's game one of the A's stated that guys were jumping to the bat rack! We have been fed a lot of happy stories of young pitchers in the low minors and how well they have performed. How do we know they won't be the next wave of Slama/Hendriks or for that matter Blackburn, et al ?