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Riverbrian
09-15-2013, 09:44 PM
Dear Trevor,

I've been hard on your defense... Defensive effort mainly... I've rarely seen you take a hit away with extra effort while manning the hot corner.

Today you took one away and fair is fair. Just want to say I saw it and it was huge for your team.

Runners on 2nd and 3rd... One Out... Your team (and mine) is down 3-0 and Pedro is needing the help big time. You are playing Up... hard grounder down the line and you dove to your right and took a hit away at that moment that would have plated two more runs.

Without that play... The Twins may not have won today. Most likely wouldn't have won actually.

Everybody loves Pinto right now for his clutch homer (it was awesome). The truth is... You helped Pinto be a hero by keeping the game close enough for him to become one.

That's team baseball!!! Pinto is feeling great because of your effort and Pedro was pumped leaving the mound after your play and the play by Doumit helped him out. Plays like the one you made are how games are won and lost. Saving two runs from scoring is just as good as hitting a two run homer.

I know I've been hard on you so I wanted to point out publicly that I see the good when it happens. You've had that ability all along... It was good to see.

Nice Job!!! More please!!!

stringer bell
09-15-2013, 10:03 PM
I am still intrigued by Plouffe. He goes through stretches where he looks like he finally gets it, and then goes through stretches where he looks like he doesn't belong in the major leagues. He made a nice play on Longoria and has made a couple other good plays. He's one of the few that are swinging well right now.

howieramone
09-15-2013, 10:26 PM
I've lost patience with a player in the organization since 2004, with almost 1200 PA's, whose never given any indication that he is a core player. I believe he will be one of the later casualties of the rebuilding process, and gone prior to opening day 2015.

jokin
09-15-2013, 10:36 PM
I've lost patience with a player in the organization since 2004, with almost 1200 PA's, whose never given any indication that he is a core player. I believe he will be one of the later casualties of the rebuilding process, and gone prior to opening day 2015.

Never given any indication? How about June-July of 2012 before his wrist injury?

jorgenswest
09-15-2013, 10:50 PM
Plouffe's OPS and wOBA are a few points above the median team OPS and wOBA from the thirdbase. His defense brings him down. If he has any growth left at the plate, he can be an average 3B.

If not, he has enough bat against lefties to move to 1B or corner OF as a platoon player.

howieramone
09-15-2013, 11:14 PM
Plouffe's OPS and wOBA are a few points above the median team OPS and wOBA from the thirdbase. His defense brings him down. If he has any growth left at the plate, he can be an average 3B.

If not, he has enough bat against lefties to move to 1B or corner OF as a platoon player.

As you know we have a 3B on the way to Target Field, that Seth mentioned at one time, is a better fielder than Plouffe. To me it's too early to determine if we will need a right-handed bat coming off the bench. I'm hoping for a Butera type return when the time comes for him to be traded.

Kwak
09-15-2013, 11:16 PM
That was a routine play at 3rd, no kudoes earned.

orangevening
09-16-2013, 07:21 AM
On Grady's 1500 show yesterday he mentioned that Willingham came up to him post game on Sat. and said that he felt he needed to say something to a certain player or players. Gardy said yeah, you do (the question was about who is the leader in the clubhouse minus M&M). Could've been Plouffe. He seems like the laid-back surfer dude a little too much sometimes. Great athlete though. Hopefully the prospect of losing his job to Sano motivates him a bit more next year.

USAFChief
09-16-2013, 08:10 AM
It took a long time for me to decide Plouffe wasn't part of the solution. It'll take me a while to rechange my mind.

Badsmerf
09-16-2013, 08:24 AM
I think we can conclude he isn't consistent enough to be a regular, but I still think he has value. He is cheap, has a ton of positional flexibility and has pop in his bat. He had 2 really really bad months at the plate, but had a .770 OPS after the first half and has hit pretty well in September. I'm not ready to just give up on that. Obviously 3b is not his long-term future, but that doesn't mean he should be traded or released. Guys like him are valuable to good teams. I hope everyone agrees with that.

Monkeypaws
09-16-2013, 09:28 AM
He'd certainly get more in return than Valencia. Jeremias Pineda anyone?

BHtwins
09-16-2013, 11:00 AM
I really dont get all the angst over Trevor Plouffe. I just dont.

He is a cheap, averagish 3rd baseman. There are at least 10 spots on the 25 man roster that need addressed worse

ThePuck
09-16-2013, 11:13 AM
I really dont get all the angst over Trevor Plouffe. I just dont.

He is a cheap, averagish 3rd baseman. There are at least 10 spots on the 25 man roster that need addressed worse

Twenty 3Bs have played enough to qualify for stats. He ranks 18th in OPS...and he's a bad defender as well. As far as his cost? As a fan, I care about quality of player not cost.

BHtwins
09-16-2013, 11:36 AM
There are still at least 10 spots maybe 15 on the roster that are in worse shape than starting 3rd baseman.

What about Plouffe just pisses everyone off?

I still dont get it. So he is in the bottom 1/4 of 3rd baseman even...so what, the starting staff is much worse, the only position above that threshold is Catcher, SS and 2B. There are 4 relievers above replacement level. Like I said there are much bigger fish to fry yet Plouffe just gets cooked here almost daily.

Winston Smith
09-16-2013, 01:35 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS7exzFmaO9pk9yI_Vphm3VD6mWx_dd3 n_p0gZ88u1hBFY9LFKKbU8cncKsNw

Danchat
09-16-2013, 03:09 PM
There are still at least 10 spots maybe 15 on the roster that are in worse shape than starting 3rd baseman.

What about Plouffe just pisses everyone off?

I still dont get it. So he is in the bottom 1/4 of 3rd baseman even...so what, the starting staff is much worse, the only position above that threshold is Catcher, SS and 2B. There are 4 relievers above replacement level. Like I said there are much bigger fish to fry yet Plouffe just gets cooked here almost daily.
It is the fact how inconsistent he is. We want him to be one player and stay as one. Sometimes he can become invincible and hit homeruns with no problem and sometimes he struggles to bat over .220 in a month. His shoddy defense only adds to this frustration.

big dog
09-16-2013, 03:20 PM
There are still at least 10 spots maybe 15 on the roster that are in worse shape than starting 3rd baseman.

What about Plouffe just pisses everyone off?

I still dont get it. So he is in the bottom 1/4 of 3rd baseman even...so what, the starting staff is much worse, the only position above that threshold is Catcher, SS and 2B. There are 4 relievers above replacement level. Like I said there are much bigger fish to fry yet Plouffe just gets cooked here almost daily.

Clete Thomas is who he is; so are the starters. You can chew on the GM for having them on the team, or the manager for playing them, but Clete isn't going to hit 35 home runs. He's not going to throw guys out very often. Correia isn't going to put up an ERA of 2.75. You want Pelfrey to better than he's been for the last 7 years? Dream on. Why chew on them for being, in the words of Dennis Green, who we thought they were?

Plouffe is a high pick, and someone who has shown stretches of being a Very Good Player. But he's just crazily erratic, an All-Star for a month and a AA call-up for a month. Who is he, really? We don't know. That's frustrating.

He doesn't seem to perform too well in clutch situations at the plate. Home runs are nice, but getting them with runners on once in a while would be even nicer. Instead, we seem to see an awful lot of pop-ups and called third strikes in those situations. He always seemed like he ought to be a better hitter than that. It's frustrating.

He also has played with what seems to be a lack of passion. Gardy say his lack of hitting is eating him up- fine, but as Riverbrian said, he could still get his uniform dirty once in a while.

That's why I'm fed up with Plouffe. He coulda been a contendah. He's not a bum, not yet, but he's on his way. And a good September doesn't change that for me. He could still help this team with his bat, but it has to show up more than one month every three.

Riverbrian
09-16-2013, 05:45 PM
I really dont get all the angst over Trevor Plouffe. I just dont.

He is a cheap, averagish 3rd baseman. There are at least 10 spots on the 25 man roster that need addressed worse

Big Dog summed it up very nicely.

Trevor is capable of so much more. I don't get worked up over Clete Thomas... Besides Clete doesn't coast out there. Trevor Plouffe needs to get dirty and help his team win... I don't get upset with poor metrics... Everybody slumps and If you are not hitting... There are still things you can do to help your team win.

It's those other things that I fail to see Plouffe do and if he's not hitting he needs to do them.

It ain't about numbers to me. Anyway... I appreciated his getting dirty yesterday and the play he made getting dirty helped the team win... Clearly helped the team win... I just wanted to say... Alright... That's how you do it.

jokin
09-16-2013, 06:24 PM
That's why I'm fed up with Plouffe. He coulda been a contendah. He's not a bum, not yet, but he's on his way. And a good September doesn't change that for me. He could still help this team with his bat, but it has to show up more than one month every three.

Nope. How about 3 months out of 6? Plouffe's slash for his 3 good months in 2013:

May .292/.365/.477/.842
June .321/.351/.528/.879
Sep. .368/.383/.509/.892


It seems to me, that a good strategy might be for his manager and hitting coach to watch Plouffe's tendencies when he just starts to slump and then cut back or limit his ABs against RHP until he makes his corrections. As stated before, his split against lefties is All Star caliber.

big dog
09-16-2013, 06:44 PM
Nope. How about 3 months out of 6? Plouffe's slash for his 3 good months in 2013:

May .292/.365/.477/.842
June .321/.351/.528/.879
Sep. .368/.383/.509/.892



Nope, back at ya.

Plouffe's "good 3 months" were quite a bit less than that, at least if you look at games played. He played 3 weeks in May, 2 weeks in June, and 2 weeks so far in Sept. So I'll take April, July, and August. That's 13 weeks. 7 good weeks out of 20 is pretty close to 1 out of 3, whether the unit is months or weeks.

When he's hot, he's hot. And when he's not...
April .217/.304/.377/.681
July .189/.223/.300/.523
August .196/.264/.330/.594

July and August are not a slump. They are a disaster.

Thegrin
09-16-2013, 06:54 PM
When Plouffe comes to bat, do you hope? do you pay close attention ? I don't. Paying close attention means to be usually disappointed. If he does something good, fine, but I don't expect it or anticipate it or hope for it. He is ranked 30th of all the 3rd basemen in the Yahoo Fantasy Baseball Leagues. He is a place holder until Sano gets here. Plouffe is a player I would rather not think about.

TheLeviathan
09-16-2013, 07:38 PM
There are still at least 10 spots maybe 15 on the roster that are in worse shape than starting 3rd baseman.

What about Plouffe just pisses everyone off?

I still dont get it. So he is in the bottom 1/4 of 3rd baseman even...so what, the starting staff is much worse, the only position above that threshold is Catcher, SS and 2B. There are 4 relievers above replacement level. Like I said there are much bigger fish to fry yet Plouffe just gets cooked here almost daily.

Some others handled this, but to put it succinctly - he represents lost opportunity. He was one of the guys we had to hope took a step forward and he didn't. That's going to make his failures hurt a bit more.

BHtwins
09-16-2013, 08:27 PM
Even if this supposed lack of hustle exists (which I dont really buy btw) so what? This is a team that started the false hustle of Nick Punto for huge swaths of time and endured Danny Valencia. Id say Plouffe is a refreshing change. He actually looks like a major league capable hitter in the box most of the time.

As far as unrewarded promise...thats largely a load of BS too. He was never a very highly touted prospect while coming up. He was a high draft pick yes....but a pick that was questionable and widely criticized. He turned out better than I thought he would 4 years ago.

So he sucks...but his level of suckitude isnt even in the top half of general roster suckiness.

I'm more pissed about the multimillion dollar back-up catcher that cant catch and hasnt hit either and the multi-million dollar outfielder that is hitting .210 and cant really field either.

TheLeviathan
09-16-2013, 09:22 PM
He actually looks like a major league capable hitter in the box most of the time.

Actually, "most" of the time he doesn't. He just goes on some really good short stretches to keep himself alive as a starter. There simply isn't a statistic in existence that verifies this claim. (Unless you revise it to say - "he actually looks like a major league capable hitter when he's in the box against lefties")


He was a high draft pick yes....but a pick that was questionable and widely criticized. He turned out better than I thought he would 4 years ago.

He was a first round pick. If your first round pick doesn't have promise - it was a bad pick. But his promise also stems from his herculian stretch last year too. So yes, there was reason to hope he could become a viable part of the team as a starter. He has completely obliterated that notion this year.

Your entire premise is flawed. Just because there is a lot going wrong doesn't minimize that he's one of the parts going wrong. No one is claiming Plouffe sunk the 2013 season. No one is making him the "Most Wanted" criminal for dashing our hopes. No one is saying our Albert Pujols in the making went David McCarthy.

People are just irked that this guy that tantalized them with hope now infuriates them with every inept play and at-bat. It's perfectly justifiable.

BHtwins
09-16-2013, 09:45 PM
gainst lefties")





Your entire premise is flawed. Just because there is a lot going wrong doesn't minimize that he's one of the parts going wrong. No one is claiming Plouffe sunk the 2013 season. No one is making him the "Most Wanted" criminal for dashing our hopes. No one is saying our Albert Pujols in the making went David McCarthy.

Problem is....he is exactly that to a lot of people here. There are at least a half a dozen or more threads directly related to Plouffe. He just gets savaged all the time here. It makes no sense.

No matter how many paragraphs you write....there is absolutely no objective reason for all the angst.

Like so many threads and discussions here...its a lost cause because too many people write about feelings not actual results. Something about Plouffe besides his results pisses people off and I just flat dont get it. I' say similar things on JJ Hardy as well. There was a lot of inbred angst about his supposed lack of caring whilst he was here as well.

Plouffe aint the problem, has never really been the problem, has performed pretty much exactly how you would expect a limited talent toolsy high school shortstop would if not perhaps better. He was never a particularly great prospect. He graduated the Appy with a .719 OPS and that was his high point until repeating AA. He wasnt on any BA list coming up. If you took a poll of people who actually know what their talking about 5 years ago and you'd have a hard time finding a majority that would have thought he would contribute at all.

jorgenswest
09-16-2013, 09:46 PM
All of this is the randomness of small sample size. It takes nearly a full season for OPS to stabilize. The wider variation that Plouffe has shown in monthly splits isn't meaningful. He isn't as good as his best monthly split or as poor as his worst.

Taking as whole you get a guy who hits a little above the median team production for 3Bs while fielding poorly. At his age, both can get a little better and rank in the middle of third basemen.

TheLeviathan
09-16-2013, 10:48 PM
Problem is....he is exactly that to a lot of people here. There are at least a half a dozen or more threads directly related to Plouffe. He just gets savaged all the time here. It makes no sense.

There are many more threads about Pelfrey, Correia, and others. A half dozen threads about one of the team's biggest disappointments does not speak to your point. In fact, it speaks contrary to it. I'm surprised there isn't more frustration with his erratic waste of a season.

As to what I quoted - there is no "objective" reason for anyone to feel anything about Plouffe. You included. There is no magic formula that objectively proves an opinion and that insinuation, I think, is part of why you are (as you said) confused by this.

jokin
09-17-2013, 12:45 AM
Nope, back at ya.

Plouffe's "good 3 months" were quite a bit less than that, at least if you look at games played. He played 3 weeks in May, 2 weeks in June, and 2 weeks so far in Sept. So I'll take April, July, and August. That's 13 weeks. 7 good weeks out of 20 is pretty close to 1 out of 3, whether the unit is months or weeks.

When he's hot, he's hot. And when he's not...
April .217/.304/.377/.681
July .189/.223/.300/.523
August .196/.264/.330/.594

July and August are not a slump. They are a disaster.

69 ABs in April, 65 in May before he went to the DL and 53 in June, so actually your comparison of month to month is somewhat faulty. And I would be the first to state that Plouffe is wildly erratic at the plate- which is why I pointed out his hot/cold history in 2013, which mirrors his past career performance, which also makes it highly problematic that he will be around for long, possibly moved in the offseason to avoid arbitration.

Yes, Plouffe had an awful July, but consider these numbers for July:

Plouffe: .189/.223/.300

Manny Machado: .196/.226/.314 (ranked #4 in WAR @ 3B)
Evan Longoria: .194/.288/.347 (ranked #3 in WAR @ 3B)

or August:

Plouffe: .196/.264/.330

Kyle Seager: .194/.303/.340 (ranked #7 in WAR @ 3B)
Todd Frazier: .180/.247/.337 (ranked #8 in WAR @ 3B)

The above 4 counter-examples show that even the best in the game have disastrous months. Plouffe isn't one of the best in the game and close monitoring and intervention is necessary to both maximize his value and prevent him from hurting the team when he's clearly struggling. I suggested previously what a more creative team might do with him, accentuate what he is very good at (kills lefties/can possibly move into a super-utility role), and minimize and tweak in the areas where he has a history of struggling mightily- ie, tough RHPs and prolonged slumps being two of his major weaknesses (Danny Valencia has earned himself strong consideration for continuing his specialist role with the Orioles in 2014, what with his .1063 OPS against lefties this year, for his career, Valencia's slash against lefties is strikingly similar to Plouffe's, with a .517 SLG and .884 OPS, compared to Plouffe: .505 SLG and .856 OPS).