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View Full Version : Article: Terry Ryan Discusses Ron Gardenhire's Future



Parker Hageman
09-12-2013, 03:51 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2328-Is-Gardy-Gone

Jon Marthaler
09-12-2013, 03:59 PM
I call unfair URL usage. Five yard SEO penalty.

Parker Hageman
09-12-2013, 04:02 PM
Grow up, JON.

Shane Wahl
09-12-2013, 04:04 PM
Much ado.

He is going to be back. I guarantee it. I would have fired him last offseason, but I am not Terry Ryan.

ChiTownTwinsFan
09-12-2013, 04:19 PM
If he were going to be back, why wait to say so? Waiting to say what's what is just delaying the inevitable, imo.

ThePuck
09-12-2013, 04:33 PM
My favorite quote: ' Regardless of ERA and those types of things, even Correia and Pelfrey, they’ve done what you might want to expect.”'

yeah, those pesky ERAs and other things that evaluate how a pitcher does...if it wasn't for them, people would say they did great. Apprently the scouts told him they've been better than their numbers suggest :-)

And yes, besides allowing a boatload of inherited runs, the bullpen has been decent.

My favorite line: 'Ryan suggested that injuries to key players played a substantial role in the Twins’ third consecutive losing season '

SUBSTANTIAL role? Blaming this season on injuries is just funny...no team goes without injuries...no team should fold because a guy or two misses some time. This kind of losing is what happens when you put this kind of rotation together backed up by too many guys that either aren't ready for the show or never will be ready for the show.

He focuses on the offensive issues and kind of sidesteps the rotation issues (besides sort of patting himself on the back for the, um, er, success of Correia and Pelfrey)which are even worse and which HE SAID he'd do everything possible to make substantially better.

mike wants wins
09-12-2013, 04:39 PM
Such a depressingly sad series of quotes.

Tcrose3636
09-12-2013, 04:42 PM
I would be pretty pissed off if I were Gardy if Ryan fires him. Look at the **** he has had to work with the past 3 years because of Smith/Ryan. If Ryan lets him go just before the top talent comes up, I think it would be a disservice to him. Struggle through 3 talentless teams, I think Gardy gets 1 or 2 years with good players. If he can't get back to the playoffs, then let him go but at least give him a decent rotation and more than 4 regulars in the everyday line up to work with.

rickyriolo
09-12-2013, 04:52 PM
i believe TR brings Gardy back. Why? Because TR believes no one could win with the roster that he himself put together. But it will be a 1 year deal with team option for year 2

ThePuck
09-12-2013, 04:53 PM
i believe TR brings Gardy back. Why? Because TR believes no one could win with the roster that he himself put together. But it will be a 1 year deal with team option for year 2

Maybe TR shouldn't bring himself back then, since he wants to shoulder all the blame.

rickyriolo
09-12-2013, 04:55 PM
I agree with you Puck but not my call

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-12-2013, 04:58 PM
Not sure why its controversial to fire an underperforming manager.

Tcrose3636
09-12-2013, 05:00 PM
Maybe TR shouldn't bring himself back then, since he wants to shoulder all the blame.

This is a good statement and question. TR has done well with the minor leagues but refuses to spend any kind of money in FA. How long does he get a pass for not making the MLB club better, we saw what another GM could do and we didn't like that. Is this a stretch of years were we as fans have to be patient until the minor league prospect come up and then judge who stays or goes? Lots and lots of question about this team, managers, and in the FO.

Tcrose3636
09-12-2013, 05:01 PM
Not sure why its controversial to fire an underperforming manager.

Maybe he is not underperforming. With the roster he has, maybe this is all he can get out of it. If he had something that resembled a MLB starting rotation, maybe he would be back in the Playoffs.

Alex
09-12-2013, 05:08 PM
Maybe he is not underperforming. With the roster he has, maybe this is all he can get out of it. If he had something that resembled a MLB starting rotation, maybe he would be back in the Playoffs.

So you're saying if he had better players he'd manage better?

Alex
09-12-2013, 05:21 PM
Such a depressingly sad series of quotes.

I agree. It comes across as pathetic excuse making and just not owning up. I'm sure it's because he can't just come out and say he made huge mistakes, but anyone should be able to read between the lines here -- that or he comes across as pretty mule-headed about the real reasons the Twins are terrible.

I'd like to see how the Twins actually rank up when looking at injuries. I mean, relatively recent injuries (like those to Deduno and Mauer) occurred after the wheels had come off. The team has been incredibly healthy at almost every spot, especially when compared to two years ago. Willingham is the only exception, and he'll still end up with 500 PAs, not to mention he's not a 10 win guy.

The bottom line is that there went into this season aging players who looked older this, hopes at 3B and RF that missed, a rookie CF who was not at all prepared, a 1B who was a shell of his former self, and a starting staff that was a lottery ticket where the max win was $10.

Marta Shearing
09-12-2013, 05:23 PM
The disturbing thing is that if he's replaced it will just be someone in the gardenhire mold. I wouldnt be a bit sueprised if it was ullger. In that case they'd be better off sticking with gardy.

Danchat
09-12-2013, 05:49 PM
Look, I love Gardy, I think he's a great coach, but he needs to go. I think Rick Anderson and TR's theory of "let's strike NOBODY out!" has really wrecked the rotation. Instead of signing pitchers who have a little risk and a chance to be good, we signed the most conservative non-strikeout pitchers money could buy. Look, I'd much rather can TR than Gardy. But Anderson has to go, and if Gardy will leave with him, so be it.

Kwak
09-12-2013, 05:49 PM
Maybe Gardenhire wants out?

Change is inevitable. Ryan is correct in pointing-out that the talent level is such that any manager would struggle--but let's not be deceived that Gardenhire was a helpless pawn with regard to the roster. The pitching philosophy, whatever catchwords you prefer, was a part of Gardenhire's input and was most definitely enforced to the detriment of any pitcher who disagreed. Twins' pitchers have a poor K/game ratio--and suffer because of it. But (at least this year) the Twins' hitters have an equally poor K/game ratio--and suffer just as much. Any baseball manager (field or general) should see these deficiencies and seek to correct them--but I haven't heard a peep from either Ryan or Gardenhire! They can all they want about getting ahead in the count and getting ground-balls, but if there is darn little threat of being struck-out the opponents just cherry-pick the pitches. Inversely the hitters strike-out so often that scoring is made really difficult--the OBP of a K is less than .01!

jimbo92107
09-12-2013, 05:50 PM
Gardenhire brings in a pitcher, pitcher gives up a bunch of runs. Gardenhire brings in a new position player, player hits under .240.

Solution? Fire Gardenhire. Heck, all the next manager needs to do is bring in players that play better. What could be simpler than that?

Thrylos
09-12-2013, 05:50 PM
I would be pretty pissed off if I were Gardy if Ryan fires him. Look at the **** he has had to work with the past 3 years because of Smith/Ryan. If Ryan lets him go just before the top talent comes up, I think it would be a disservice to him. Struggle through 3 talentless teams, I think Gardy gets 1 or 2 years with good players. If he can't get back to the playoffs, then let him go but at least give him a decent rotation and more than 4 regulars in the everyday line up to work with.


a. 2011 was the same team practically as the 2010, other than the differences in the middle infield that Gardenhire himself wanted (remember Gardy's 'we need more speed up the middle' quotes, which he used to justify why he did not like Hardy.) Add the ostracizing of Slowey and sticking with Blackburn & Duensing in the rotation, which was a Gardy & Andy and not a Smith thing, and Gardy is probably more responsible than Smith for 2011

b. Gardy had good teams, including a team that had both the Cy Young and MVP award winners, and he did nothing other than his trademark 3 and out. He had 13 seasons.

It is more than time for him to go away. Bert looks like he is getting a bit too tired/bored with the broadcast and taking half of the games off, and Gardy would be a perfect replacement. Problem solved
---

That said, Ryan's quotes suggest that either he and reality have no connection or he is a plain liar. To say that Pelfrey and Correia were alright and the issues with this season are because the Mauer and Willingham injuries, adds a major intellectual insult to the injury his product has caused to the Twins' fans. Who can take him seriously after those statements? But I suspect a lot of people still taking him seriously after blaming 2012 on Jerry and Stelly and rearranged the rest of the stairs.

Needed changes will be made for 2014 (like last season.) Maybe Scotty will be the pitching coach (the only position he did not have,) Andy the third base coach, Vavry the bench coach and Steiny the first base coach. That would solve all problems.

I cannot see how anyone can trust Ryan. He has to go first and foremost for this team to compete.

Winston Smith
09-12-2013, 05:51 PM
A Ryan question, where do they sit on spending the allowed Int. signing money? I know he spent some of it but I thought a lot was still left. Ryan said he'd spend it all, just wondering.

josecordoba
09-12-2013, 05:59 PM
My favorite quote: ' Regardless of ERA and those types of things, even Correia and Pelfrey, they’ve done what you might want to expect"

Ryan is of course correct. Unless one happens to think that Team Defense has no impact on a pitcher's outcome. Which would lead one to believe that Bruce Chen has been a better pitcher this year then Justin Verlander.

old nurse
09-12-2013, 06:25 PM
A Ryan question, where do they sit on spending the allowed Int. signing money? I know he spent some of it but I thought a lot was still left. Ryan said he'd spend it all, just wondering.

I do believe there are about 9 months left in the signing period, what is the rush. Was there a quote somewhere that said he was done signing prospects?

ThePuck
09-12-2013, 06:54 PM
Ryan is of course correct. Unless one happens to think that Team Defense has no impact on a pitcher's outcome. Which would lead one to believe that Bruce Chen has been a better pitcher this year then Justin Verlander.

You think it's just ERA that show they haven't been up to par? He said 'ERA AND those type of things'. Did you see my response to that quote?

If you wanna blame it all on defense, well, look at their FIPs. Not that great either.

...oh, and maybe if it's defense that is the big probelm, and it is a big problem, he should maybe take some blame for that too...maybe he should have also taken the defense into account when he decided to get a bunch of pitchers who need to rely very heavily on defense to be successful

MarshalltheIrish
09-12-2013, 07:30 PM
There's no question Gardy should go. As if three straight losing seasons of this caliber weren't bad enough, let's not forget he has a hideous 12-game playoff losing streak under his belt as well. The team has failed in every way under his tenure, even with the some successes like the division titles. If they truly want to rebuild I think they'd benefit not only from a new manager next year, but one from the outside. My top pick is Dave Martinez, the bench coach for the Tampa Bay Rays. He's been on the staff for all these great and resourceful Rays teams, and age and career-wise I think he'd be poised to take on a managerial job. In any case, it's time for Gardy to walk.

Alex
09-12-2013, 07:44 PM
You think it's just ERA that show they haven't been up to par? He said 'ERA AND those type of things'. Did you see my response to that quote?

If you wanna blame it all on defense, well, look at their FIPs. Not that great either.

...oh, and maybe if it's defense that is the big probelm, and it is a big problem, he should maybe take some blame for that too...maybe he should have also taken the defense into account when he decided to get a bunch of pitchers who need to rely very heavily on defense to be successful

An interesting comparisons might've to look at last year's defense vs. this year's. The OF wasn't as good without Span and Revere, but up the middle infield was improved greatly -- best combo In the league by some metrics.

So, I'm not convinced the "it's not the pitcher's fault" really flies.

ThePuck
09-12-2013, 07:58 PM
An interesting comparisons might've to look at last year's defense vs. this year's. The OF wasn't as good without Span and Revere, but up the middle infield was improved greatly -- best combo In the league by some metrics.

So, I'm not convinced the "it's not the pitcher's fault" really flies.

Truth is...we have failed horribly in every aspect of the game...every...single...aspect. Even the bullpen, though overworked for sure and with a decent ERA, has failed when it comes to inherited runners scoring...which is a pretty important part of relieving.

Alex
09-12-2013, 08:07 PM
Truth is...we have failed horribly in every aspect of the game...every...single...aspect. Even the bullpen, though overworked for sure and with a decent ERA, has failed when it comes to inherited runners scoring...which is a pretty important part of relieving.

I don't disagree with the exception of 2B, C, and CL

ThePuck
09-12-2013, 08:08 PM
I don't disagree with the exception of 2B, C, and CL

True, but I meant as a team...as a whole.

D. Hocking
09-12-2013, 08:22 PM
I don't necessarily blame Gardy for the losing seasons, but I do think it is time for some fresh blood. Last year when they made the changes it seems like they were shuffling the deck of the cards they already had; fire the trainer promote his assistant. Even Terry Ryan -- I kind of wish they would have explored looking for someone on the outside to get some fresh perspective and ideas. I think in general the hiring from within is not a bad thing, but after 20 years you do need to shake it up a little.

Semi-related, I wonder if Terry really has permission to spend more like he says, or if the Pohlads are singing a different tune behind the scenes.

cmb0252
09-12-2013, 08:34 PM
I don't necessarily blame Gardy for the losing seasons, but I do think it is time for some fresh blood. Last year when they made the changes it seems like they were shuffling the deck of the cards they already had; fire the trainer promote his assistant. Even Terry Ryan -- I kind of wish they would have explored looking for someone on the outside to get some fresh perspective and ideas. I think in general the hiring from within is not a bad thing, but after 20 years you do need to shake it up a little.

Semi-related, I wonder if Terry really has permission to spend more like he says, or if the Pohlads are singing a different tune behind the scenes.

Great post. I like the idea of rewarding people from within the franchise but at some point you have to go outside of the organization. I like Gardy and thank him for all he has done for the franchise but I think we need a new leader.

jorgenswest
09-12-2013, 08:56 PM
Terry states disappointment about the offense, but he should have known. The drop in offensive production was in the projections last November. That was even prior to the Span and Revere trades.

A portion of this blog entry detailed the concern about the offense.

Projecting the Twins: Early 2013 ZIPS - Blogs - Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/jorgenswest/2136-projecting-twins-early-2013-zips.html)

The Twins did nothing in the offseason to address the offense. It's production should not be a surprise. With an OPS+ of 92 the offense has contributed at least as much to the poor record as the pitching.

D. Hocking
09-12-2013, 09:18 PM
Terry states disappointment about the offense, but he should have known.

I don't necessarily think Terry should go, but he gave an interview last spring that really rubbed me the wrong way. It was when the Twins were still above 500 well past the time people thought they would be. When he asked if he was surprised -- he seemed irritated and said he expected more. Now I can see why he would say that, but from his tone he seemed really irritated that anyone would think they were not better than a 500 team. I wanted to shout through the radio, have you seen your roster? There was something about his tone that came off both a little arrogant and a little in denial about the true talent level of the team he had put together - like he really felt he had put together a team that could and should produce a winning record. I think things started to go south less than a week after that interview.

Kwak
09-12-2013, 09:25 PM
I don't necessarily blame Gardy for the losing seasons, but I do think it is time for some fresh blood. Last year when they made the changes it seems like they were shuffling the deck of the cards they already had; fire the trainer promote his assistant. Even Terry Ryan -- I kind of wish they would have explored looking for someone on the outside to get some fresh perspective and ideas. I think in general the hiring from within is not a bad thing, but after 20 years you do need to shake it up a little.

Semi-related, I wonder if Terry really has permission to spend more like he says, or if the Pohlads are singing a different tune behind the scenes.

Remember the comment about Ryan not spending all that was authorized? Do you think other teams hang their GM out to dry for "underspending"? I don't. I think it was an empty statement that was intended to obscure the spending issue and place it squarely on Ryan. Before the season started St.Peter was interviewed and stated that "[they]" were comfortable with a budget of $80-$85MM. So if Ryan "underspent" it was by about 3-4% of the plan--and not some massive amount that would have netted another "top" player.

Yes, I believe that ownership is setting the spending parameters, but also that Ryan is in agreement with those parameters. I never truly accepted the "burnt-out" statement concerning his relinquishing the GM role either. Recall that when Hunter and Santana left there was a huge drop in payroll--and that it was no accident that there was no major free agent signing. Livan Hernandez (at $5MM) would not qualify!

mike wants wins
09-12-2013, 09:43 PM
Ryan did not sign Hunter or Santana, and quit before Mauer needed signing.....do people think that is a coincidence?

howieramone
09-12-2013, 10:01 PM
Ryan did not sign Hunter or Santana, and quit before Mauer needed signing.....do people think that is a coincidence?

I know I do. When you have a job that millions want but only 30 have, there is never a good time to quit.

Kwak
09-12-2013, 10:18 PM
Ryan did not sign Hunter or Santana, and quit before Mauer needed signing.....do people think that is a coincidence?
Most GMs go through baseball hell in order to even be considered for GM, so leaving is "unexpected"--unless it's a promotion like McPhail received.

RodneyKline
09-12-2013, 10:45 PM
It is not Gardenhire's fault because he was not given good players and he didn't decide to spend only $70m on payroll. Injuries were not that big of an issue this year like it was last year. The failure is 100% on the GM. The team that was sold to us as competitive was a 90 loss team all along and almost all of us knew that. Shame on the fans for buying so many tickets to see this fraud.

Rosterman
09-12-2013, 10:59 PM
Scott Ullger will get his year!

clutterheart
09-13-2013, 12:23 AM
Injuries? Ryan is playing the injury card?
How can he be so disingenuous? The starting pitching staff that he created is the worst in the league. Willingham has been unable to stay healthy for most of his career. Mauer was hurt when the season was already over. He rushed Hicks because he traded away all of his CF'ers. He had no plan B for a non-productive Plouffe. He constructed a line-up full of mostly high strike out guys.

The fault of this season is Ryan's and Ryan's alone.
Gardy has his issues, and probably it would be good to let him go but Ryan is the one who is tarnishing his legacy by insulting the fan base.

howieramone
09-13-2013, 12:55 AM
Injuries? Ryan is playing the injury card?
How can he be so disingenuous? The starting pitching staff that he created is the worst in the league. Willingham has been unable to stay healthy for most of his career. Mauer was hurt when the season was already over. He rushed Hicks because he traded away all of his CF'ers. He had no plan B for a non-productive Plouffe. He constructed a line-up full of mostly high strike out guys.

The fault of this season is Ryan's and Ryan's alone.
Gardy has his issues, and probably it would be good to let him go but Ryan is the one who is tarnishing his legacy by insulting the fan base.

I don't believe millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans were insulted. This was your average everyday interview and a confession was neither expected nor necessary. Most of us are quite familiar with coachspeak.

jokin
09-13-2013, 02:44 AM
I don't believe millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans were insulted. This was your average everyday interview and a confession was neither expected nor necessary. Most of us are quite familiar with coachspeak.

Except this was GM-speak. I don't think anyone needs a confession at this point, a rebooted resignation speech, 2.0, would work just fine for those millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans who were insulted, yet again.

biscuit
09-13-2013, 03:41 AM
Gardenhire's case reminds me of a quote from former minor league manager, Rocky Bridges, and the title of a Jim Bouton book: "I managed good, but boy did they play bad".

clutterheart
09-13-2013, 04:35 AM
I don't believe millions of loyal and knowledgeable Twins fans were insulted. This was your average everyday interview and a confession was neither expected nor necessary. Most of us are quite familiar with coachspeak.

Not sure I agree with you here. I think he is scapegoating and creating the old “if only we were healthy” excuse and he is hoping the fanbase buys what he is selling. If the local media was more and aggressive they would start looking into it and seeing if its true. But since this is MN, I am starting to look for the LENIII post about how Willingham gutted it out most of the year and is a better teammate because of it.

josecordoba
09-13-2013, 04:45 AM
You think it's just ERA that show they haven't been up to par? He said 'ERA AND those type of things'. Did you see my response to that quote?

If you wanna blame it all on defense, well, look at their FIPs. Not that great either.

...oh, and maybe if it's defense that is the big probelm, and it is a big problem, he should maybe take some blame for that too...maybe he should have also taken the defense into account when he decided to get a bunch of pitchers who need to rely very heavily on defense to be successful

What's up to par mean? Pelfrey and Correia have given about 3 WAR for the Cost of $10 Million Dollars. I doubt the signings were ever made with the assumption that either would compete for CY Young Awards. If you're mad that Ryan didn't acquire a Front-Line Starter. This is a totally different discussion.

TheLeviathan
09-13-2013, 06:03 AM
I'm going to go out on a huge limb, but I don't think Willingham getting hurt tanked our playoff chances. Pretty sad that it's the best Terry has to explain this failed season. I can think of dozens of better "GM-speak" cliches that don't sound half as inane as that.

ThePuck
09-13-2013, 06:44 AM
What's up to par mean? Pelfrey and Correia have given about 3 WAR for the Cost of $10 Million Dollars. I doubt the signings were ever made with the assumption that either would compete for CY Young Awards. If you're mad that Ryan didn't acquire a Front-Line Starter. This is a totally different discussion.

Not a totally different discussion at all. This article is about the state of this team. If what we've gotten from Correia and Pelfrey this year is what he expected, which is what he said, then that's a problem...then he shouldn't have signed them to begin with. As far as getting our money's worth...as a fan, why do I care? I should be happy we went out and got pitchers worth little on the FA market and they lived up to it when we needed a serious overhaul? Worst rotation in baseball.

AM.
09-13-2013, 07:05 AM
Very positive: I read this interview and conclude that Gardy is gone. And a change is really needed. I also think that the Twins would be better off without their "interim" GM. Less optimistic about that though.

I don't particularly trust the thinking / player evaluation of either. I think if the Twins had a manager who was pushing hard for high K or upside pitchers, the GM would more likely be pursuing them. So the roster construction falls partially on the manager, I think, too.

Brock Beauchamp
09-13-2013, 07:20 AM
I also think that the Twins would be better off without their "interim" GM.

Short-term Twins? Sure. Long-term Twins? Eh, you'll have a hard time convincing me of that unless the GM was Epstein-esque (ie. sabr-heavy and very intelligent).


I don't particularly trust the thinking / player evaluation of either. I think if the Twins had a manager who was pushing hard for high K or upside pitchers, the GM would more likely be pursuing them. So the roster construction falls partially on the manager, I think, too.

I don't think the manager has any real control over roster construction past saying stuff like "I really like Punto, please keep him". Which is aggravating in its own right but will hardly make or break a franchise. No manager is ever going to say "I really like that Blackburn fellow, keep Clayton Kershaw in the minors".

USAFChief
09-13-2013, 08:06 AM
I don't think the manager has any real control over roster construction past saying stuff like "I really like Punto, please keep him". Which is aggravating in its own right but will hardly make or break a franchise. No manager is ever going to say "I really like that Blackburn fellow, keep Clayton Kershaw in the minors".
I agree, and would go so far as to say if a manager IS overly influencing roster construction, I'd primarily blame the GM anyway. Part of any executive's job is to delegate, or not delegate, responsibilities.

twinsnorth49
09-13-2013, 08:43 AM
Easily the most aggravating and disconcerting comment was that Correia and Pelfrey "did what you might expect". If this is what he expected, he clearly couldn't have been genuine when he said the team would compete this year, could he?

Quite obviously if these are your two main FA SP signings and this what you expected, then you expected to lose.

As far as Gardy goes, it's a tough read either way, I'm not sure anyone gets more than 70 wins out of this steaming pile but 3 years of 90+ in the L column and then deciding to stay the course is not the best way to excite your fan base. I'm usually not a fan of change for change sake but some fresh faces and a new direction would sure breed a little more interest for me.

jay
09-13-2013, 08:46 AM
Maybe Gardenhire wants out?


I tend to think we'll see Gardy dust off the ol' TR retirement speech 1.0, which I'd be perfectly fine with. Gardy has never been known for being great at handling young players, which we'll have plenty of in short time. I'd like to see someone with a little more energy and advanced field approach.

nicksaviking
09-13-2013, 09:05 AM
Why were injuries mentioned at all? The Twins were long out of any playoff race when Willingham and Mauer went down.

The Twins were among the healthiest teams in the league at the beginning of the year.

Boom Boom
09-13-2013, 09:07 AM
Easily the most and disconcerting comment was that Correia and Pelfrey "did what you might expect". If this is what he expected, he clearly couldn't have been genuine when he said the team would compete this year, could he?

Quite obviously if these are your two main FA SP signings and this what you expected, then you expected to lose.

I get that Ryan has to say things like "pretty darn good pitcher" and "meaningful games in September" when the season is still fresh. But now that the season is over, these comments bother me as well. Honestly I'd rather he said that KC and Pelf have been disappointing, because it sounds here like he's hoping that fans don't remember the line he toed originally on these guys.

ThePuck
09-13-2013, 09:15 AM
Why were injuries mentioned at all?

Because some fans will buy that excuse.

nicksaviking
09-13-2013, 09:31 AM
Because some fans will buy that excuse.

Yup, but of course only if Ryan brings it up first for them to mull over.

ThePuck
09-13-2013, 10:13 AM
Yup, but of course only if Ryan brings it up first for them to mull over.

exactly.

Halsey Hall
09-13-2013, 12:15 PM
I get that Ryan has to say things like "pretty darn good pitcher" and "meaningful games in September" when the season is still fresh. But now that the season is over, these comments bother me as well. Honestly I'd rather he said that KC and Pelf have been disappointing, because it sounds here like he's hoping that fans don't remember the line he toed originally on these guys.

Correia and Pelfrey did just exactly what some expected. I think TR expected alot more. He has to be more aggressive this off season acquiring a couple decent arms than ever before.

ThePuck
09-13-2013, 12:22 PM
Correia and Pelfrey did just exactly what some expected. I think TR expected alot more. He has to be more aggressive this off season acquiring a couple decent arms than ever before.

If Ryan expected a lot more from them, he doesn't say 'Regardless of ERA and those types of things, even Correia and Pelfrey, they’ve done what you might want to expect.” ' Well, unless you figure he often doesn't mean what he says...

twinsnorth49
09-13-2013, 12:52 PM
Correia and Pelfrey did just exactly what some expected. I think TR expected alot more.

Some? TR said they did what you would expect, where did he indicate he expected more? That would have been refreshing, if he truly did expect more it was based on hope and prayer, which I fear a repeat of.

diehardtwinsfan
09-13-2013, 05:00 PM
Very positive: I read this interview and conclude that Gardy is gone. And a change is really needed. I also think that the Twins would be better off without their "interim" GM. Less optimistic about that though.

I don't particularly trust the thinking / player evaluation of either. I think if the Twins had a manager who was pushing hard for high K or upside pitchers, the GM would more likely be pursuing them. So the roster construction falls partially on the manager, I think, too.

He's not an interim GM anymore. I agree with you on Gardy, it's his time. He will find a major league job if he wants one, but he's definitely not the guy you want managing the next wave of rookies as they come up.

As for Ryan, I'm not sure I agree... yet. Right now, this team needs a guy who can stock a farm system, and he does that very very well. While Smith gets some of that credit, Ryan has also done a pretty good job in that regard the last 2 years. If you think shedding him will suddenly improve our odds of winning in 2014, I think you're wrong. Where I do think his problem lies is what happens in 2015-2020 when he has a real good idea which of these young guys are studs and which need to be replaced. When those free agent signings need to be made, I'm not sure Ryan is the guy I want manning the helm.

jokin
09-13-2013, 05:18 PM
As for Ryan, I'm not sure I agree... yet. Right now, this team needs a guy who can stock a farm system, and he does that very very well. While Smith gets some of that credit, Ryan has also done a pretty good job in that regard the last 2 years. If you think shedding him will suddenly improve our odds of winning in 2014, I think you're wrong. Where I do think his problem lies is what happens in 2015-2020 when he has a real good idea which of these young guys are studs and which need to be replaced. When those free agent signings need to be made, I'm not sure Ryan is the guy I want manning the helm.

Phil Mackey pointed out an inconvenient truth that counters our general perceptions, the last 2 years nothwithstanding, affecting both Smith and Ryan, at least when it comes to drafting pitchers:


Who are the last two Twins starting pitchers to be drafted in the June entry draft, climb the minor league ladder and contribute to the major league starting rotation?

Kyle Gibson, drafted in 2009, and...
I hope you're sitting down for this next one...
Jeff Manship (http://twinsdaily.com/pages/roster.php?pID=160), drafted in 2006.



No organization can survive that appalling level of futility.

More evidence for why payroll is the least of the Twins' concerns | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/More_evidence_for_why_payroll_is_the_least_of_the_ Twins_concerns091313)

old nurse
09-15-2013, 07:56 PM
Phil Mackey pointed out an inconvenient truth that counters our general perceptions, the last 2 years nothwithstanding, affecting both Smith and Ryan, at least when it comes to drafting pitchers:



No organization can survive that appalling level of futility.

More evidence for why payroll is the least of the Twins' concerns | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/More_evidence_for_why_payroll_is_the_least_of_the_ Twins_concerns091313)

Try Cleveland. Look at their record for drafting starting pitching. Archer they traded, Guthrie back in 02, and traded. They seem to be doing OK at the moment

LaBombo
09-16-2013, 06:44 PM
Try Cleveland. Look at their record for drafting starting pitching. Archer they traded, Guthrie back in 02, and traded. They seem to be doing OK at the moment

In order to get their three best starters, the Indians traded away Victor Martinez and Jake Westbrook in their primes, as well as Drew Pomeranz, a former top 50 prospect who may well turn out to be better than Gibson. Doesn't look like the Twins will be making any trades like that.

And although the Indians are playing well, they're 27th in quality starts and 23rd in whip, so it's not like they've assembled a lights-out staff, either.

old nurse
09-16-2013, 09:57 PM
In order to get their three best starters, the Indians traded away Victor Martinez and Jake Westbrook in their primes, as well as Drew Pomeranz, a former top 50 prospect who may well turn out to be better than Gibson. Doesn't look like the Twins will be making any trades like that.

And although the Indians are playing well, they're 27th in quality starts and 23rd in whip, so it's not like they've assembled a lights-out staff, either.

The article was about drafting of pitchers and looked at the last 8 years. I went out to 10. Victor Martinez does not pitch. The comparison was about pitching. Westbrook was drafted 17 years ago by Colorado. The comment was for players drafted, not traded for. That they were traded for starting pitching is only important because of the futility of the Indian's drafting. Drew Pomeranz may have been a top 50 prospect but has not even shown himself to be an even mediocre mlb pitcher. The basis for the ranking would probably be due to his draft position.IIRC there was a thread last month on top 100 prospects washing out. Ranking beyond top 10 did not mean much. That he made it to the majors though means that in the last 10 years they drafted 3 pitchers that made it to the major leagues. Still less than what has made it up for the Twins. The earlier statement was no team could survive that sort of futility with their drafting. Despite the statistics you mentioned, the Indians are poised to make the playoffs. It would appear as though they are surviving their futile drafting. Do they get an asterisk if they make it because they were not in the AL East?

mike wants wins
09-17-2013, 08:27 AM
The Cleveland team won less than 70 games last year, and might make the wild card this year, and yet people keep saying the Twins should punt again next year.....I don't get it.

jorgenswest
09-17-2013, 09:09 AM
The Indians story is a good one.

They rank below the Twins in payroll so they didn't get here by spending money. Their pitching has been middling. Their defense below average. The one piece that his working well is their hitting. Their wOBA ranks seventh led by Kipnis and Cabrera. They also have had spectacular performances from Raburn and Gomes.

They may make the playoffs but how does their performance this year guide the Twins?

Who will be the Twins Jan Gomes? Where can Twins find a guy to sign for 1 million that will put up a .979 OPS like Raburn? Who will be their Kazmir and Kluber? Those four guys were worth 10.6 WAR.

If the Twins can find four guys to come out of nowhere like those four, they can compete next year. How do they do that?

mike wants wins
09-17-2013, 09:14 AM
Actually, they signed a lot of FAs and traded a prospect for a pitcher, both things the Twins could do this offseason. The only reason the Twins payroll is close is Mauer......People really need to stop looking at the total payroll, and look at what the Twins are spending on 24 of the 25 people.

Sano, not out of nowhere, 2-4 wins better than Plouffe
Gibson not being AWFUL, 1-4 wins there
Ellsbury in CF, then LF when Buxton is up, 3-5 wins more than Hicks this year
Acria and Dozier good for the whole year, 2-5 wins
Sign one legit FA pitcher, 2-5 wins

Not really that hard, frankly, it does require money, and it requires three players to be better than this year (or at least good for longer).

jorgenswest
09-17-2013, 09:34 AM
Actually, they signed a lot of FAs and traded a prospect for a pitcher, both things the Twins could do this offseason. The only reason the Twins payroll is close is Mauer......People really need to stop looking at the total payroll, and look at what the Twins are spending on 24 of the 25 people.

Sano, not out of nowhere, 2-4 wins better than Plouffe
Gibson not being AWFUL, 1-4 wins there
Ellsbury in CF, then LF when Buxton is up, 3-5 wins more than Hicks this year
Acria and Dozier good for the whole year, 2-5 wins
Sign one legit FA pitcher, 2-5 wins

Not really that hard, frankly, it does require money, and it requires three players to be better than this year (or at least good for longer).

This should probably be in a free agent targets thread. Do we have one yet?

Someone will likely offer Ellsbury around 7 years at about 150 million. The Twins will have to outbid enough so that he would be willing to come to a team far from contention.

Would it be wise to commit that many years to any outfielder in their 30s? This particular outfielder has only played two full seasons in his last four.

Boston has the resources to give him a big contract. He wants to stay. The only way he is available is if Boston doesn't think it is a good risk. If it isn't a good risk for a large market team like Boston, isn't it an even greater risk for a mid market team?

nicksaviking
09-17-2013, 09:47 AM
Michael Bourn and Nick Swisher were bigger external free agent signings than anything the Twins have ever made. Though I did not like the players, I applauded Cleveland for the effort.

Regardless, shouldn't we be setting our sights a little higher than Cleveland's pitching staff? No one would expect that group to win a playoff series.

LaBombo
09-17-2013, 12:01 PM
The earlier statement was no team could survive that sort of futility with their drafting. Despite the statistics you mentioned, the Indians are poised to make the playoffs. It would appear as though they are surviving their futile drafting. Do they get an asterisk if they make it because they were not in the AL East?
You're clinging to a single sentence of another post while ignoring its obvious point, which is that not drafting good pitchers is killing the Twins.

Instead you're going on about the Indians in an effort to make it seem as though the Indians being above .500 proves that the Twins can consistently field a competitive team without knowing the difference between an amateur draft pitching prospect and a King Charles spaniel.

Yes, the Indians have been able to stay above .500. Good for them. It doesn't help your argument, which is essentially the team version of saying a pitcher is good because of how many wins he has. The Indians have an average rotation that was assembled by trading away valuable assets. What good does that example do the Twins?

Kwak
09-17-2013, 01:33 PM
You're clinging to a single sentence of another post while ignoring its obvious point, which is that not drafting good pitchers is killing the Twins.

Instead you're going on about the Indians in an effort to make it seem as though the Indians being above .500 proves that the Twins can consistently field a competitive team without knowing the difference between an amateur draft pitching prospect and a King Charles spaniel.

Yes, the Indians have been able to stay above .500. Good for them. It doesn't help your argument, which is essentially the team version of saying a pitcher is good because of how many wins he has. The Indians have an average rotation that was assembled by trading away valuable assets. What good does that example do the Twins?

I am not completely convinced that the problem is not drafting good pitchers. I see improperly developed pitchers being the real problem (of course better command, faster FB, and stronger character would be a big help!), but rather Twins pitchers don't have a "finish 'em off pitch"--which I believe is the real problem. The insistence on pitch-count, and ground-balls (PtoC) short-circuits the development. It can develop a fine minor league pitcher but experience has shown that major league hitters hit these guys regularly. The development system must be crafted to produce major league pitchers the type the get strike-outs and cause hitters to swing the bat earlier in the count especially on pitches on the fringe of the strikezone. Until then, we will repeats of Hendriks' Monday night "inning".

Winston Smith
09-17-2013, 01:45 PM
Sense this is about Gardy's future I'll throw out a name in Mike Maddox as a manager. Tell him to fix our pitching top down. Do what he needs to and hire the best he can get.
Without fixing our pitching not much else will help, imo.

old nurse
09-17-2013, 01:58 PM
You're clinging to a single sentence of another post while ignoring its obvious point, which is that not drafting good pitchers is killing the Twins.

Instead you're going on about the Indians in an effort to make it seem as though the Indians being above .500 proves that the Twins can consistently field a competitive team without knowing the difference between an amateur draft pitching prospect and a King Charles spaniel.

Yes, the Indians have been able to stay above .500. Good for them. It doesn't help your argument, which is essentially the team version of saying a pitcher is good because of how many wins he has. The Indians have an average rotation that was assembled by trading away valuable assets. What good does that example do the Twins?

Yes I focused on a single very false sentence. Welcome to TD where it is done all the time. My only point was the statement of futility is false. Oakland went from 2002-2009 with finding only 2 starting pitchers in the draft. Seattle went from 1999 to 2005 without having a drafted pitcher make it as a starter. They spent most of that time winning 90 games or more a season. It happens to teams. It doesn't do them any good down the road. The cycle of luck shifts, you get a couple of decent pitchers, that is how it works.
Cleveland traded Martinez as a sell high. They were not going to be winning before he became a free agent. Westbrook was going to be a free agent the fall after they traded him. Again, a sell high. Happens in baseball. Good for Cleveland. They went for prospects that were known. Oakland is praised for doing that type of thing.

nicksaviking
09-17-2013, 04:25 PM
The cycle of luck shifts, you get a couple of decent pitchers, that is how it works.

I think the disagreement you are going to get is that luck should not be the overriding factor. Some teams seem more skilled at either scouting or development and if the Twins are not toward the top of the food chain in these areas it's time for a change.




Sense this is about Gardy's future I'll throw out a name in Mike Maddox as a manager. Tell him to fix our pitching top down. Do what he needs to and hire the best he can get.
Without fixing our pitching not much else will help, imo.

Back on track and nicely done. I'd be interested in Maddox simply on the hope that the pitching staff may improve, but he kind of strikes me as an old school manager who happens to have harder throwing pitchers. However maybe that idea only stems from the fact that he played in the 1980's, an enjoyable period of baseball but a completely different game that is no longer played by 29 of the league's 30 teams.

I'd like a new school manager in the Joe Madden mold, but as discussed elsewhere, that would probably require the removal of Terry Ryan.

Thrylos
09-17-2013, 04:56 PM
Sense this is about Gardy's future I'll throw out a name in Mike Maddox as a manager. Tell him to fix our pitching top down. Do what he needs to and hire the best he can get.
Without fixing our pitching not much else will help, imo.

Agreed.

And with the Rangers due for wholesale changes in their manager and coaching staff, if they do not succeed in (and make) the postseason, he might be available.

But as a pitching coach. He is too quiet. And this team needs a manager who seems to care when they lose, instead of hanging himself by the armpits over the dugout rail, like the manager they have.

old nurse
09-17-2013, 05:03 PM
I think the disagreement you are going to get is that luck should not be the overriding factor. Some teams seem more skilled at either scouting or development and if the Twins are not toward the top of the food chain in these areas it's time for a change.
.

It shouldn't be luck. Problem is you can't find several teams that consistently get starting pitchers through the draft.

old nurse
09-17-2013, 05:09 PM
Agreed.

And with the Rangers due for wholesale changes in their manager and coaching staff, if they do not succeed in (and make) the postseason, he might be available.

But as a pitching coach. He is too quiet. And this team needs a manager who seems to care when they lose, instead of hanging himself by the armpits over the dugout rail, like the manager they have.

So he gets himself thrown out so he doesn't have to watch his team? I do believe he is eighth on the all time list. He throws players under the bus because he is happy they play poorly?

jokin
09-17-2013, 05:54 PM
Yes I focused on a single very false sentence. Welcome to TD where it is done all the time. My only point was the statement of futility is false. Oakland went from 2002-2009 with finding only 2 starting pitchers in the draft. Seattle went from 1999 to 2005 without having a drafted pitcher make it as a starter. They spent most of that time winning 90 games or more a season. It happens to teams. It doesn't do them any good down the road. The cycle of luck shifts, you get a couple of decent pitchers, that is how it works.
Cleveland traded Martinez as a sell high. They were not going to be winning before he became a free agent. Westbrook was going to be a free agent the fall after they traded him. Again, a sell high. Happens in baseball. Good for Cleveland. They went for prospects that were known. Oakland is praised for doing that type of thing.

When will the Twins get a couple of those "sell highs"? I wish that that kind of "luck" would "cycle" around here more often than once a decade.

And why are you proud of taking a comment out of context, labeling it false based on your out of context opinion, because it's "done all the time on TD"?

Thrylos
09-17-2013, 06:18 PM
So he gets himself thrown out so he doesn't have to watch his team? I do believe he is eighth on the all time list. He throws players under the bus because he is happy they play poorly?

Throwing (only some) players under the bus is a passive aggressive after the fact move. He does zip to change the momentum during the game, when it counts. Just hangs.

Thrown out of a game rarely accomplishes anything. Getting aggressive on the base paths, getting in the minds of opposing pitchers, retaliating for hit batsmen and dirty plays, being energetic and interacting with his players during the game, treating everyone the same etc., does.

old nurse
09-18-2013, 06:53 AM
When will the Twins get a couple of those "sell highs"? I wish that that kind of "luck" would "cycle" around here more often than once a decade.

And why are you proud of taking a comment out of context, labeling it false based on your out of context opinion, because it's "done all the time on TD"?

So now it becomes taken out of context? A one line sentence about an article on the Twins poor drafting with no further insight attached to it and I point out how it is wrong by a team that is surviving well with poor pitching. Taken out of context? LOL. LaBobo attacked saying that I just picked on one sentence. It is done all the time here. It is not a "proud of" thing. It is just ironic that someone would choose that way to attack someone when single sentences are attacked all the time when the rest of the concept is ignored. I guess I will have to PM you the next time you do it.
The Twins had a sell high situation a few years ago. They were called Matt Garza, Johan Santana, and Michael Cuddyer. When they only pick up poor player from your sell highs, you have nothing.