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kryptik
09-10-2013, 10:15 PM
With a 3rd consecutive 90 loss season upon us I have been thinking about who would inevitably succeed Gardenhire as the next manager of the franchise. Gardy has led the Twins to six division titles through the end of the Metrodome era and into a new age for the team at Target Field. He has undoubtedly been a great leader but his time has come.

Target Field was the supposed beginning of a new era of Twins baseball in terms of financial and on the field competitiveness. We need a manager that can capitalize on these underutilized new advantages and raise the expectations of this franchise and state. I believe that Joe Maddon is that man. If we want to be considered a serious perennial contender we need to make management and staff moves that reflect that ambition.

Joe Maddon would develop the young talent in this system and have the credibility to ensure that FAs wouldn't slip from our grasps. He has topped out in Tampa in terms of fan and regional support. If he can win an AL Pennant and two AL East titles with the Rays think of what he could do with a legitimate mid to upper tier market club such as the Twins, especially one with such a promising and young core of talent quickly rising through the ranks. You can only butt heads with the two headed in division Yankee/Red Sox monster for so long.

I know he signed a contract extension last year, but I am convinced that if we ponied up good money, $4-4.5mil a year, we could pry him from Tampa. I know he's said he loves it there blah blah blah, but money talks and there is definite opportunity here to create a formidable player in the American League if the right manager showed up.

I'll hang up and listen.

MichiganTwins
09-10-2013, 10:18 PM
I would welcome that, but its a long shot as you probably agree. I think Molitor has a chance or Glynn. Anyway, Gardenhire will be back. Lets face it the Twins wont let him go.

Oldgoat_MN
09-10-2013, 10:59 PM
Maddon would be awesome, but I cannot see the Rays letting him out of his contract.

At least if I were part of Rays ownership, I sure wouldn't let him go!

Thrylos
09-10-2013, 10:59 PM
Joe Maddon and Terry Ryan's three ring binder will not play nice with each other. In order to have one (or one like him), Terry Ryan and his binder has to go...

Shane Wahl
09-10-2013, 11:03 PM
Not saying Gardenhire is gone, but wouldn't it appear as though Terry Steinbach is next in line?

Down the road it may be Dougie or Jake.

Otwins
09-11-2013, 12:12 AM
How about Mike Redmond? I think he has done a very good job in Miami. He is young for a manager but has big league experience and ties to the Twins.

beckmt
09-11-2013, 12:20 AM
Unless the Twins fold up the final 2 weeks, Gardy will be back. Might also expect Glen Gwynn to be in the mix(do not know if I spelled that correctly)

stringer bell
09-11-2013, 09:23 AM
It is Gene Glynn of Waseca, MN donchaknow! If they dump Gardy, I hope the Twins go outside the organization totally. If ever an organization needed to be opened up wider it is the Twins.

pierre75275
09-11-2013, 09:27 AM
I would love to see mike scocia in the twins dugout. I know he is signed thru 2018, but rumor has it he could be on the hot seat.

nicksaviking
09-11-2013, 09:30 AM
Joe Maddon and Terry Ryan's three ring binder will not play nice with each other. In order to have one (or one like him), Terry Ryan and his binder has to go...

Yes, Ryan and Maddon do not fit. Maddon is new school baseball, Ryan is staunchly old school. If you want Maddon, it's best to pry away Andrew Freidman, the Rays GM, first. He actually only goes year-to-year with his contract so he is fair game.

maxisagod
09-11-2013, 09:47 AM
The Interviews would be small. I'd guess only Glynn, Molitor, and Ullger would get interviews. Lip service and maybe a phone would be made regarding Redmond and another big name like Ozzie Guillen. But the Twins would have to trade for Redmond given his three year contract, and that's a long shot.

ChiTownTwinsFan
09-11-2013, 10:01 AM
I would hope they would go outside the organization as well, but that never seems to be what they do. And personally, I hope they do NOT choose Molitor. He's never managed, not even in the minors. But this is all moot until Gardy is gone.

Monkeypaws
09-11-2013, 10:16 AM
Former catchers make pretty good managers. Steiny?

Tibs
09-11-2013, 10:39 AM
Charlie Manuel was fired by the Phillies and used to play for the Twins. Just throwing another name out there if Gardenhire were to go, but I'm not sure if he is the type of manager the Twins need.

zenser
09-11-2013, 10:44 AM
In house, I would say Molitor, Steinbach, and Glenn are candidates. I hope not Ullger.

Mike Maddux? Ryne Sandburg? Alan Trammel? Jim Hickey? Curt Young? Rick Peterson? I am not sure what these guys contracts currently are but they would be guys I would be interested in if they went out of the organization.

diehardtwinsfan
09-11-2013, 10:50 AM
I think Gardy is gone. He'd have gotten an extension if they wanted him back. He has not been extended. I want a guy who work well with rookies. Maddon is a great idea, but he's under contract, so I don't think it happens.

nicksaviking
09-11-2013, 11:06 AM
I think Gardy is gone. He'd have gotten an extension if they wanted him back. He has not been extended. I want a guy who work well with rookies. Maddon is a great idea, but he's under contract, so I don't think it happens.

I actually think Ryan will look for an excuse to extend Gardenhire. There hasn't been any point in the season the Twins have played well enough that Ryan could justify going out and offering an extension based on current performance. However, I think he's painted himself into a corner based on past comments implying the failure isn't Gardy's fault.

The Twins have won two in a row, I wouldn't be surprised if they win a few more using these young guys, if Ryan uses that as justification to offer an extension before the season ends.

Winston Smith
09-11-2013, 11:17 AM
Terry Ryans office tells it all.
http://www.hilaborlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/aintbrokedontfixit.jpg

Willihammer
09-11-2013, 11:42 AM
I actually think Ryan will look for an excuse to extend Gardenhire. There hasn't been any point in the season the Twins have played well enough that Ryan could ustify going out and offer an extension based on current performance. However, I think he's painted himself into a corner based on past comments implying the failure isn't Gardy's fault.

This is my thought as well. I was somewhat surprised to read an interview with Jim Pohlad a few weeks ago where he predicated some comment with a casual "obviously we're bringing Ryan back next year." As you say, given the ownership Ryan has taken for the losses (at least publicly), I think they would have a hard time not bringing Gardy back another year at least.

edit: here is the exact quote from Sid's interview:


Meanwhile, Twins manager Ron Gardenhire is without a contract after this year. Pohlad said Gardenhire’s status will be evaluated after the season.

Is there any reason he won’t be back?

“Well, that’s Terry’s decision, but he’ll consult with all of us,” said Pohlad, who added that nothing has been decided.

Hartman: Pohlad expects better times ahead for Twins | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/218930321.html)

gil4
09-11-2013, 11:46 AM
Anyway, Gardenhire will be back. Lets face it the Twins wont let him go.

I'm not so sure. Last offseason there was quite a bit of reshuffling on the staff. This is not a team that has played well fundamentally and only lost because of the lack of talent. This team has had plenty of breakdowns and failures that really fall on the shoulders of the coaching staff, especially the one at the top. I think Ryan's public comments are diplomatic because the season is still going on, but I think Gardy is gone.

nicksaviking
09-11-2013, 11:58 AM
If Gardy is let go, they should do it now and give Gene Glynn the interim label now that his Rochester team is done playing.

ChiTownTwinsFan
09-11-2013, 01:05 PM
If Gardy is let go, they should do it now and give Gene Glynn the interim label now that his Rochester team is done playing.

I think they are letting him get to (hoping he gets to) 1000 wins. Then they can part ways on a 'celebratory' note.

kryptik
09-11-2013, 01:43 PM
I understand the feeling that some have that Gardy might be back, but I can't see the rationale from a PR standpoint within the organization. You just had 3 straight 90 loss seasons and traded away one of the cornerstones of the last decade of the franchise in Morneau. If that's not clearing the way to press the reset button on things I don't know what is.

That being said there are twofold things that I predict will happen: 1. Gardy will not be out of work long. He is a good manager but sometimes a break and a change of scenery are necessary to regain focus in your work. Just because we (might) let Gardy go and someone else picks him up, does NOT mean we made a mistake. 2. I think Terry Ryan will hire a middle aged guy to replace Gardy, not a young gun or hot up and comer as much as the last of the older generation kind of guy to run the organization. So in that sense Joe Maddon would be out of the picture, as much as I would like it to happen.

Getting a manager the caliber of Maddon would send a message to the league that the Twins are a serious organization that is to be reckoned with not only in the AL Central but league-wide. We should be comparing ourselves on a tier with teams such as the St. Louis Cardinals and the San Francisco Giants, not the Brewers/Indians/Royals.

Minnesota is a top 10 state in per-capita income, top 15 in media market size etc, to put it frankly we aren't Garrison Keillor's Minnesota anymore. Unfortunately too much of the older generation seems stuck in the "ahh shucks", overly negative, small town rube mindset that handicaps our taking the next step in being competitive. There is no reason we can't win like the Cardinals and Giants can, none whatsoever. If we scale our core principles of getting good value, solid scouting/drafting, and strong fundamentals with a larger resource pool and a coaching staff capable of getting the most out of the players we could be exceptional dangerous in Major League Baseball.

I'll get off my soapbox and let the speculation about whether or not Gardy goes and who would replace him to continue now.

LaBombo
09-11-2013, 04:20 PM
The Interviews would be small. I'd guess only Glynn, Molitor, and Ullger would get interviews. Lip service and maybe a phone would be made regarding Redmond and another big name like Ozzie Guillen. But the Twins would have to trade for Redmond given his three year contract, and that's a long shot.

If they interview Ullger for any reason other than professional courtesy to make him appear more legitimate as a managerial candidate elsewhere, it would be very disappointing to me.

nicksaviking
09-11-2013, 04:26 PM
I think they are letting him get to (hoping he gets to) 1000 wins. Then they can part ways on a 'celebratory' note.

I don't like it, but I agree. That would be such a classicly passive way to dismiss Gardy, it does sound like it's right in the organization's wheelhouse.

Though in my post I said "if" not "when" Gardy is replaced. Though I don't necissarily agree with it, I still think the adds are Gardy gets an extension.

LaBombo
09-11-2013, 04:36 PM
I think they are letting him get to (hoping he gets to) 1000 wins. Then they can part ways on a 'celebratory' note.
Yup. 995 and counting. With the season in the tank it's surprising that it hasn't been played up more by the Twins.

And maybe he'll leave us with a few more fond memories after the thousandth win by adding a few more ejections to his impressive career total. He's already on pace to break Earl Weaver's AL record of 98 career ejections if he manages just 6 more seasons.

Shane Wahl
09-11-2013, 04:41 PM
Molitor is not going to be a manager. I don't get how his named gets bandied about. The Twins are going to look at their own managers in the system or they are going to look at the BENCH COACH on the big league club right now.

Highabove
09-11-2013, 04:47 PM
Take a good look at this line up including the batting averages.
Can we even call this a Major League Lineup?
I do no believe you should fire Gardenhire with the Talent (lack of talent) he was given to work with this year.
If Gardinhire is fired, Ryan should go with him.







Minnesota
AB
R
H
RBI
BB
SO
LOB
AVG


Presley (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=502100), CF
4
0
2
0
0
1
2
.295


Pinto (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=500887), C
3
0
0
0
1
2
1
.500


Dozier (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=572821), 2B
4
0
0
0
0
2
3
.243


Arcia (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=542455), RF
4
1
2
1
0
1
1
.255


1-Thomas, C (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=460004), PR-RF
0
1
0
0
0
0
0
.223


Doumit (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=425491), DH
4
0
1
0
0
1
1
.240


Willingham (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=425545), LF
3
2
2
3
1
0
0
.207


Mastroianni (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=518991), LF
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
.216


Plouffe (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=461858), 3B
4
0
0
0
0
0
2
.248


Parmelee (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=476633), 1B
2
0
1
0
2
0
0
.224


Florimon (http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=465753), SS
4

LaBombo
09-11-2013, 04:50 PM
Joe Maddon and Terry Ryan's three ring binder will not play nice with each other. In order to have one (or one like him), Terry Ryan and his binder has to go...
Maddon's job interview with Twins front office personnel...

Terry Ryan: Like I did with Ron, I would expect to talk with you frequently about what kind of team you'd like to field. For starters, can you tell me how you would like to see the organization go about adding talent within the constraints of our existing budget?

Maddon: It would be great to see you and your staff target a free agent pitcher with strong peripherals who is still affordable due to an ERA that was artificially inflated by a high BABIP and low strand rate. And maybe be willing to part with some non-essential talent to acquire a high minor league infielder who has posted strong wOBA's for his age relative to league but who is undervalued because he's blocked within his organization.

Entire Twins front office in unison:
http://www.mymeetingprofessional.com/wp-content/uploads/Dr-Evil-My-Meeting-Professional.jpg
BWAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!

cmb0252
09-11-2013, 04:51 PM
Mike Maddux. This franchise needs someone, anyone, from outside the organization to come in. As someone who used to live in Dallas and follows the Rangers as a side team the things Maddux has done for the pitching there is amazing. Built a whole new philosophy. With our young arms coming up we need someone who has proven to be able to harness their talent.

As I say this I'm guessing if Gardy isn't back, which I would bet he will be, the front office most likely will bring someone from within the organization.

Highabove
09-11-2013, 05:05 PM
Why would Maddon want to come here?? He loves the Ray's organization and their owners.
He also enjoys the Tampa St. Pete Community. There is no way he would work for Ryan or for that matter the Pohlad's.

Pius Jefferson
09-11-2013, 10:31 PM
The Angels are going to back up the brinks truck to steal Maddon away from Tampa.

According to Patrick Reusse a second hand source says it's up to Gardy if he wants to return.

Chance
09-11-2013, 11:28 PM
I said the second he was hired that he would be managing the major league team the next season. Dougie has the attitude and the youth this team needs. With that said, I don't think Gardy is going anywhere anymore.

clutterheart
09-11-2013, 11:36 PM
I never even considered that Ulger would be considered for the spot. But now that I see it here I am convinced this is the way Ryan would want to go.

Scott Ulger - your next manager of the MN twins...just typing this makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up....

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-11-2013, 11:47 PM
According to Patrick Reusse a second hand source says it's up to Gardy if he wants to return.

How unfortunate. I've never understood the Twins fans who defend the manager more vehemently than they defend the players, especially considering the successful guys we've seen come through here. Let's give Gardenhire some credit for managing during the good years but keep him around and we will be seeing attendance in the single thousands a year from now.

Folks who care more deeply about Ron Gardenhire than they care about the team itself should ask themselves if the inevitable losing season next year would leave a permanent stain on his chances to ever manage in any other organization. One bad year is an aberration, two bad years might be excused. Check out the story today in the Pioneer Press about Mauer getting "irritable" whenever Gardenhire comes to talk to him. Link (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_24073229/minnesota-twins-manager-ron-gardenhire-has-stopped-asking)
. This franchise is overdue to decide if they want to rebuild around Mauer and their top prospects and new leadership in the clubhouse, or if they want to maintain their job welfare program for Gardenhire and his good-ol'-boy network while guys like Gibson and Hicks wither on the vine. So yeah, I have an opinion about this. It's got to be someone other than Gardenhire and someone not currently on the coaching staff.

glunn
09-12-2013, 02:52 AM
Maddon's job interview with Twins front office personnel...

Terry Ryan: Like I did with Ron, I would expect to talk with you frequently about what kind of team you'd like to field. For starters, can you tell me how you would like to see the organization go about adding talent within the constraints of our existing budget?

Maddon: It would be great to see you and your staff target a free agent pitcher with strong peripherals who is still affordable due to an ERA that was artificially inflated by a high BABIP and low strand rate. And maybe be willing to part with some non-essential talent to acquire a high minor league infielder who has posted strong wOBA's for his age relative to league but who is undervalued because he's blocked within his organization.

Entire Twins front office in unison:
http://www.mymeetingprofessional.com/wp-content/uploads/Dr-Evil-My-Meeting-Professional.jpg
BWAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAAAHAAAA!!!!!!!

I thought that Skeletor worked for the Yankees.

glunn
09-12-2013, 03:13 AM
How unfortunate. I've never understood the Twins fans who defend the manager more vehemently than they defend the players, especially considering the successful guys we've seen come through here. Let's give Gardenhire some credit for managing during the good years but keep him around and we will be seeing attendance in the single thousands a year from now.

Folks who care more deeply about Ron Gardenhire than they care about the team itself should ask themselves if the inevitable losing season next year would leave a permanent stain on his chances to ever manage in any other organization. One bad year is an aberration, two bad years might be excused. Check out the story today in the Pioneer Press about Mauer getting "irritable" whenever Gardenhire comes to talk to him. Link (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_24073229/minnesota-twins-manager-ron-gardenhire-has-stopped-asking)
.
This franchise is overdue to decide if they want to rebuild around Mauer and their top prospects and new leadership in the clubhouse, or if they want to maintain their job welfare program for Gardenhire and his good-ol'-boy network while guys like Gibson and Hicks wither on the vine. So yeah, I have an opinion about this. It's got to be someone other than Gardenhire and someone not currently on the coaching staff.

Moderator note:

Your statement about fans who care more about Gardenhire than the team is inflammatory. I read the forums a lot and have never seen anyone who meets this description.

This is a good example of a fairly common problem that we moderators are going to be addressing more aggressively -- exaggerations that provoke bickering and inaccurate labeling of other members.

Yes, Gardenhire has his defenders here, but there is ZERO basis to suggest that they care more about him than the team. Such characterizations may feel good for the givers but make the recipients feel bad. If someone were to respond by posting something about the people who are too irrational and mule headed to realize that Gardy has been given a weak lineup, then the shoe would be on the other foot and we would then have to deal with a stupid flame war.

Normally I would just delete your post and send you a private message, but I am calling this out to the community as a whole because it is a great example of something that we are trying to eliminate. Please consider that the reason for TD policy is to promote friendly, intelligent debate among fans who share a common love for the team. You can certainly tell people that you respectfully believe that they are totally wrong, but you must refrain from inflammatory, inaccurate labeling. We moderators are going to treat this as trolling.

Finally, I see lots of merit in what you say. But you need to be more respectful of your fellow fans who may disagree with you but who, under TD policy, must show similar respect for you.

beckmt
09-12-2013, 04:13 AM
Doubt Gardy will leave on his own. Does he get pushed out, easy way would be to let Rick Anderson go for performance reasons, then maybe Gardy resigns. Anderson could be on the hot seat given the article in the Stribe about a week or two ago on Liarino, which brought up that the Pirates pitching coach spotted an issue in his delivery and fixed it. That raise a flag for me that said maybe this pitching coach needs to be replaced and let Bobby Cuellar have a shot at it. Starting pitching was terrible and starters up here did not seem to improve during the season.
If that does not work, my guess is that Gardy will be back, otherwise Glenn Glynn has done a great job at Rochester, he should be given the chance if the team goes internal, other choice would be Steinbach.

old nurse
09-12-2013, 06:11 AM
How unfortunate. I've never understood the Twins fans who defend the manager more vehemently than they defend the players, especially considering the successful guys we've seen come through here. Let's give Gardenhire some credit for managing during the good years but keep him around and we will be seeing attendance in the single thousands a year from now.

Folks who care more deeply about Ron Gardenhire than they care about the team itself should ask themselves if the inevitable losing season next year would leave a permanent stain on his chances to ever manage in any other organization. One bad year is an aberration, two bad years might be excused. Check out the story today in the Pioneer Press about Mauer getting "irritable" whenever Gardenhire comes to talk to him. Link (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_24073229/minnesota-twins-manager-ron-gardenhire-has-stopped-asking).


Mauer is injured with something that has no timetable for return nor treatment plan. To take that story where you did is an interesting way to read a story.

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-12-2013, 06:40 AM
Moderator note:

Your statement about fans who care more about Gardenhire than the team is inflammatory. I read the forums a lot and have never seen anyone who meets this description.

This is a good example of a fairly common problem that we moderators are going to be addressing more aggressively -- exaggerations that provoke bickering and inaccurate labeling of other members.

Yes, Gardenhire has his defenders here, but there is ZERO basis to suggest that they care more about him than the team. Such characterizations may feel good for the givers but make the recipients feel bad. If someone were to respond by posting something about the people who are too irrational and mule headed to realize that Gardy has been given a weak lineup, then the shoe would be on the other foot and we would then have to deal with a stupid flame war.

Normally I would just delete your post and send you a private message, but I am calling this out to the community as a whole because it is a great example of something that we are trying to eliminate. Please consider that the reason for TD policy is to promote friendly, intelligent debate among fans who share a common love for the team. You can certainly tell people that you respectfully believe that they are totally wrong, but you must refrain from inflammatory, inaccurate labeling. We moderators are going to treat this as trolling.

Finally, I see lots of merit in what you say. But you need to be more respectful of your fellow fans who may disagree with you but who, under TD policy, must show similar respect for you.

Understood.

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-12-2013, 07:04 AM
Mauer is injured with something that has no timetable for return nor treatment plan. To take that story where you did is an interesting way to read a story.

I'm not sure how to read it.

True, the concussion is a critical fact but don't overlook that Mauer and Gardenhire have an unflattering years-long history of back and forth bickering about whether Gardenhire was going to write Joe into the lineup on any particular day.

A minor story, but I do think it's news that the GM and manager told the media that the team's mild-mannered star player was so irritable that he was excused from the park -- sure does violate the "keep it in the locker room" code.

Joe A. Preusser
09-12-2013, 07:17 AM
I actually think Ryan will look for an excuse to extend Gardenhire. There hasn't been any point in the season the Twins have played well enough that Ryan could justify going out and offering an extension based on current performance. However, I think he's painted himself into a corner based on past comments implying the failure isn't Gardy's fault.

The Twins have won two in a row, I wouldn't be surprised if they win a few more using these young guys, if Ryan uses that as justification to offer an extension before the season ends.


TR doesn't need to fabricate excuses, there are plenty of legitimate reasons to extend Gardy. If they choose to go in another direction, so be it. But let's be honest about the high quality of manager we have in place right now.

ThePuck
09-12-2013, 07:46 AM
I don't like it, but I agree. That would be such a classicly passive way to dismiss Gardy, it does sound like it's right in the organization's wheelhouse.

Though in my post I said "if" not "when" Gardy is replaced. Though I don't necissarily agree with it, I still think the adds are Gardy gets an extension.

I stopped being a Gardy supporter towards the end of the 2007 season, though I won't slam him just to slam him and I will give him his due when I think it's warranted. I would like to see someone new...but only if that someone new came from completely outside the organization. I don't see that happening.

ChiTownTwinsFan
09-12-2013, 08:33 AM
Scott Ulger - your next manager of the MN twins...just typing this makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up....

And reading it does worse for me. Blecht.

LaBombo
09-12-2013, 08:58 AM
And reading it does worse for me. Blecht.
The Ullger part or the neck hair part?

Winston Smith
09-12-2013, 09:02 AM
I would think the "doing the same thing over and over and...." would come into play at some point. Can you really sell what we have seen to season ticket buyers anymore? Can you get fans excited sending out the same cast of characters (manager and coaches) again next year? Not sure dumping a few coaches again this year will cut it.

Oldgoat_MN
09-12-2013, 09:05 AM
I never even considered that Ulger would be considered for the spot. But now that I see it here I am convinced this is the way Ryan would want to go.

Scott Ulger - your next manager of the MN twins.....

That was mean. I used to enjoy your posts, clutterheart.

You're dead to me now.

old nurse
09-12-2013, 09:42 AM
I'm not sure how to read it.

True, the concussion is a critical fact but don't overlook that Mauer and Gardenhire have an unflattering years-long history of back and forth bickering about whether Gardenhire was going to write Joe into the lineup on any particular day.

A minor story, but I do think it's news that the GM and manager told the media that the team's mild-mannered star player was so irritable that he was excused from the park -- sure does violate the "keep it in the locker room" code.

I am sure that Joe Mauer is really happy that he can't play. I am sure that with symptoms, which he has or otherwise he would be cleared to play, he is a real joy to be around. I bet he even really likes not knowing what the heck is going to happen. Especially after he has seen the career of Morneau post concussion. It has been about three weeks and symptoms come back. I am sure he likes that. The powers that be should have said that Mauer wasn't feeling well. They said irritable. HIPPA violation, fine them.

wavedog
09-12-2013, 10:21 AM
Mike Maddux. This franchise needs someone, anyone, from outside the organization to come in. As someone who used to live in Dallas and follows the Rangers as a side team the things Maddux has done for the pitching there is amazing. Built a whole new philosophy. With our young arms coming up we need someone who has proven to be able to harness their talent.

As I say this I'm guessing if Gardy isn't back, which I would bet he will be, the front office most likely will bring someone from within the organization.

100% agree with this. I live down here in Arlington and have seen Maddux make a huge impact with the Rangers pitching staff since he became pitching coach. Especially given the fact that it looks like we have a good stable of hitters coming up but pitching is where we will need the most impact.

IdahoPilgrim
09-12-2013, 11:37 AM
Check out the story today in the Pioneer Press about Mauer getting "irritable" whenever Gardenhire comes to talk to him. Link (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_24073229/minnesota-twins-manager-ron-gardenhire-has-stopped-asking)


I checked the story. It looked to me like the thing that Mauer is irritated about is constant questions about his health. I didn't see anything here which indicated a greater schism between manager and star player, which is how the comment here could have been interpreted.

Frankly, while I by no means am intending to rag on Mauer, I think this says more about him than about Gardenhire. He's going to need to understand (and I suspect he actually does) that given his salary and his prominence on the field and in the clubhouse his recovery is going to be under a public microscope. Sucks, but that's where it is.

70charger
09-12-2013, 11:54 AM
I read this story too, and what I got out of it was that irritability in and of itself is a symptom of concussions:


" 'Irritable' is one of the descriptions many times you will hear (associated with) concussion symptoms," Ryan said. "He got here, went through some of the paces, didn't have the response he was hoping (for), and we have to be able to address that."

In other words, people recovering from brain injury often don't act like themselves, which manifests in irritability (alluded to in the article), which is very out of character for Joe Mauer (also alluded to in the article), and team brass is picking up on these signals as a sign that he isn't ready to come back (also alluded to in the article).

It has nothing to do with Gardenhire, it honestly has very little to do with non-brain-injured Joe Mauer, but it has everything to do with concussion symptoms playing havoc with the concussion victim's mood.

BHtwins
09-12-2013, 01:00 PM
I dont think TR is off the hook either. There are no other franchises that would go through 3 consecutive 90 loss seasons while staring a 4th one next season right in the eye and let the GM and manager stand.

Its time for the Pohlad's and St. Peter to show the fan base they are interested in something beside making money on the back of the public largesse. You got your stadium now do the fans a solid and show us that your serious about winning. Find some new blood.

Steve Penz
09-12-2013, 01:55 PM
100% agree with this. I live down here in Arlington and have seen Maddux make a huge impact with the Rangers pitching staff since he became pitching coach. Especially given the fact that it looks like we have a good stable of hitters coming up but pitching is where we will need the most impact.

This would be interesting. I like it. I am not a gardy hater but I support shaking things up. I wish there was some occasional new blood. Why not hire from outside? Even if it was not the head coach then how about some of the other coaches?

Side question/request: somebody please explain why people even mention Molitor. He has barely coached. He is not currently coaching. IMO if he really wanted the job or any head coaching job he would follow the normal path to get one. Because he is hometown and was a great player are not a legit reasons to consider him.

cmb0252
09-12-2013, 02:02 PM
100% agree with this. I live down here in Arlington and have seen Maddux make a huge impact with the Rangers pitching staff since he became pitching coach. Especially given the fact that it looks like we have a good stable of hitters coming up but pitching is where we will need the most impact.

Ron Washington used to play for the Twins so even though it is very small there is some connection. Kind of.... Ok, not really, but I love Maddux. Perfect fit.

Musk21
09-12-2013, 02:43 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that if Gardy were to go, that Gene Glynn would be the next manager. The Twins aren't going to go outside of the organization, that's just not the way they do things (although one could argue they went outside the organization to bring him here in 2012). Rochester was 53-91 in 2011 under Nieto and improved to 72-72 in '12 and 77-67 this year.

My guess is they tell Gardy that he can stay, but Andy would need to go, so Gardy opts not to return.

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-12-2013, 02:47 PM
I read this story too, and what I got out of it was that irritability in and of itself is a symptom of concussions:

In other words, people recovering from brain injury often don't act like themselves, which manifests in irritability (alluded to in the article), which is very out of character for Joe Mauer (also alluded to in the article), and team brass is picking up on these signals as a sign that he isn't ready to come back (also alluded to in the article).

It has nothing to do with Gardenhire, it honestly has very little to do with non-brain-injured Joe Mauer, but it has everything to do with concussion symptoms playing havoc with the concussion victim's mood.

People who listen regularly to the radio broadcasts of games and the complementary radio programming will have heard some really petty back-and-forths between Mauer and Gardy about why or why not Mauer was in the lineup after his Bilateral leg weakness. Mauer saying he was sore, Gardy giving him day off, Mauer coming back and saying yeah he was sore but still wanted to play, Gardy saying he let's Joe tell him what to do, etc.

So when I read the "irritability" story, that whole backstory came to mind.

Maybe concussion symptoms but hard for me to take Terry Ryan at face value after what he said about the Scott Baker injury. Also what an earlier poster in this thread said about having two young newborns and lack of sleep could make a guy irritable :)

Hosken Bombo Disco
09-12-2013, 02:56 PM
Side question/request: somebody please explain why people even mention Molitor. He has barely coached. He is not currently coaching. IMO if he really wanted the job or any head coaching job he would follow the normal path to get one. Because he is hometown and was a great player are not a legit reasons to consider him.

Larry Dierker came directly from the broadcast booth to lead the Astros so having no coaching experience is not unheard of... and I think there's still Molitor love left over from 2001-2002 when TK stepped down and Molitor and Gardenhire were considered to be the front runners.

Also, Sid Hartman -- leave it to Sid -- made a pretty blunt statement about a month ago that Dave St. Peter wants Molitor to manage (I'm sure that eased the tension in the front office).

Willihammer
09-12-2013, 03:22 PM
I realize he's probably not the best or most deserving person for the job but if they are going to promote from within, I'd kind of like to see how Mientkewicz would do.

Kwak
09-12-2013, 03:35 PM
The Twins made a big deal about Jim Thome's 600th HR--and he spent very little of his career at Minnesota nor was he "home-grown" ala` Molitor and Winfield for their fetes. My question is why aren't the Twins making a big deal about Gardenhire's 1000th win? My guess is that he is "on the outs" with the FO [those above Ryan]. I combine that with Gardenhire selling his MN home and conclude--he's gone after this September.

LaBombo
09-12-2013, 03:37 PM
I realize he's probably not the best or most deserving person for the job but if they are going to promote from within, I'd kind of like to see how Mientkewicz would do.
We know he's still willing to mix it up if there's a bench-clearing brawl...

Boom Boom
09-12-2013, 03:50 PM
Also, Sid Hartman -- leave it to Sid -- made a pretty blunt statement about a month ago that Dave St. Peter wants Molitor to manage (I'm sure that eased the tension in the front office).

I didn't read that one. Was it underneath Sid's campaigning for the Twins to bring in Robb Quinlan?

LaBombo
09-12-2013, 03:57 PM
The Twins made a big deal about Jim Thome's 600th HR--and he spent very little of his career at Minnesota nor was he "home-grown" ala` Molitor and Winfield for their fetes. My question is why aren't the Twins making a big deal about Gardenhire's 1000th win? My guess is that he is "on the outs" with the FO [those above Ryan]. I combine that with Gardenhire selling his MN home and conclude--he's gone after this September.
Briefly mentioned that in another post. Seems odd that in a season where there's really not much to draw casual fan interest, there's been little in the media coverage or even straight from the Twins. Maybe they're just embarrassed at the prospect of having a guy who only needed 5 wins in 20 games not getting there.

Good find on the sale of his house. Read a short business journal story that speculated that the sale had nothing to do with his status as manager but rather that he sold because he had bought a home in Fort Meyers. Of course, that was in April, before another 90 loss campaign.

Dman
09-12-2013, 04:24 PM
I don't think the FO blames Gardenhire for the teams 90 loss seasons they blame injuries and a lack of talent. Gardenhire did have a lot of success taking a young Twins team and winning division titles for several years so maybe they think once the system is reloaded he can do that again.

He isn't a bad manager as many people have mentioned he likely would be picked up by another team right away. There isn't a divisive club house and the players who have left the Twins who could have burned him only say glowing things about him. Players like Morneau seemed to want to play for him and tried to get a contract done with the Twins so that he could. So I'm not sure that he is as bad as some people seem to think.

That being said a fresh pair of eyes and different attitude could be good for the club as well. I just don't think the Twins will get rid of him as they are typically loyal and don't blame him for this mess. The only way Gardenhire goes is if he says no to the new contract.

old nurse
09-12-2013, 04:27 PM
Fans go to see the players, not the manager. Fans come out to see special events when you are winning. That would be why they are not making a big deal of it. On the other hand, if it was 2 90+ wins the 2 previous years, they might have done something.

SweetOne69
09-12-2013, 04:46 PM
Side question/request: somebody please explain why people even mention Molitor. He has barely coached. He is not currently coaching. IMO if he really wanted the job or any head coaching job he would follow the normal path to get one. Because he is hometown and was a great player are not a legit reasons to consider him.

Prior to Gardy being hired, Molitor was the #1 choice and the job was his if he wanted it. But at the time Molitor wanted spend time with his family. Now his kids are grown and he may want to get back involved with the club on a full time basis.

It was the same story with Brunansky. Why do you think that he suddenly came back to coach 3 years ago? His kids grew up and moved out so he wanted something to do, so he came back to the Twins and moved up the system as a hitting coach.

Thrylos
09-12-2013, 06:03 PM
My question is why aren't the Twins making a big deal about Gardenhire's 1000th win?

Because it will be extremely bad form to celebrate someone's career among 3+ 90 loss seasons of the team.

Jim Crikket
09-12-2013, 07:25 PM
I started typing out my thoughts on this, but it got rather lengthy and I decided I'd just do a blog post at some point instead.

For now, I'll just say Terry Ryan will not be going anywhere until he wants to, but I could see him offering Gardy a 1 year extension and requiring more coaching changes... and I could see Gardy walking away from that and the Twins.

I don't see it as at all likely his replacement would come from outside the organization, but there are some interesting possible internal choices.

Sconnie
09-12-2013, 08:59 PM
I am sure that Joe Mauer is really happy that he can't play. I am sure that with symptoms, which he has or otherwise he would be cleared to play, he is a real joy to be around. I bet he even really likes not knowing what the heck is going to happen. Especially after he has seen the career of Morneau post concussion. It has been about three weeks and symptoms come back. I am sure he likes that. The powers that be should have said that Mauer wasn't feeling well. They said irritable. HIPPA violation, fine them.
I think Hosken was writing about the departure from the norm on the part of TR and Gardy. I too find it noteworthy that there's news out of the clubhouse that is unflattering about a player in a more personal way. It's just odd.

I don't blame anyone being irritated by Mauers situation. It must be horrifying for Mauer to have lingering side effects so close to a similar side effect story of his friend and former team mate. I can imagine Gardy is not feeling too good about it either, it can't help his situation.

Sconnie
09-12-2013, 09:03 PM
Because it will be extremely bad form to celebrate someone's career among 3+ 90 loss seasons of the team.
There's also no guarantee that he'll get 5 more wins his year.

Dman
09-12-2013, 09:27 PM
I started typing out my thoughts on this, but it got rather lengthy and I decided I'd just do a blog post at some point instead.

For now, I'll just say Terry Ryan will not be going anywhere until he wants to, but I could see him offering Gardy a 1 year extension and requiring more coaching changes... and I could see Gardy walking away from that and the Twins.

I don't see it as at all likely his replacement would come from outside the organization, but there are some interesting possible internal choices.

IMHO I see them offering Gardy a three year deal. This team is still gonna be bad in 2014. Maybe not as bad as this year but still bad. 2015 he should have most of his best prospects playing and 2016 is his make or break or season. They would need to give him three years to turn things around to see if the Gardy of old still has the magic.

USAFChief
09-12-2013, 10:26 PM
I like the suggestion of Dave Martinez. A lot.

70charger
09-13-2013, 12:13 AM
The Twins made a big deal about Jim Thome's 600th HR--and he spent very little of his career at Minnesota nor was he "home-grown" ala` Molitor and Winfield for their fetes. My question is why aren't the Twins making a big deal about Gardenhire's 1000th win? My guess is that he is "on the outs" with the FO [those above Ryan]. I combine that with Gardenhire selling his MN home and conclude--he's gone after this September.

Because he might not make it?

Thome hit 600 in what? Early August? I think everyone knew that barring injury, he was getting there that year.

LaBombo
09-13-2013, 12:42 AM
IMHO I see them offering Gardy a three year deal. This team is still gonna be bad in 2014. Maybe not as bad as this year but still bad. 2015 he should have most of his best prospects playing and 2016 is his make or break or season. They would need to give him three years to turn things around to see if the Gardy of old still has the magic.
You're probably right. But is that a good thing or a bad thing?

This franchise has one playoff series win in the past 22 years. If they bring back the current manager after his third straight 90 loss season, they will have done it twice in that 22 year span.

Two more times than any other team in the league.

And the other guy they brought back from that had won two World Series rings.

Nobody is saying Gardenhire is a bad manager. He's generally regarded as a good clubhouse peacekeeper and, until the three-year tailspin, had a good win percentage with what was a low/mid-payroll franchise.

But he's also had two almost entirely different rosters basically forfeit multiple playoff series, has championed a pitch-to-contact coach who may have been a pyromaniac fire chief in a former life, and has through both words and actions disregarded and mocked "cybermetrics", which have arguably had a greater (positive) effect on the game going back to the DH rule than PED's (negative) effects have had.

Shane Wahl
09-13-2013, 01:01 AM
Yeah if Dave Martinez was up for it, clearly.

But this is Gardy's team. Somehow. But if a change happens, I GUARANTEE that if Steinbach wants it, he gets it. Guarantee.

After that, it's Dougie or Jake. Full stop.

glunn
09-13-2013, 01:17 AM
I just read through this thread looking for policy violations. I was in the mood to delete something, and surely there would be at least a few posts in this thread that needed deleting, but you people are all having an intelligent and respectful debate. Thanks for following TD policy.

My personal view is that although Gardy has been dealt some poor cards, it's just time to make a change BUT only if the replacement is someone who brings something new and valuable to the table, like Dave Martinez. I would not be happy with anyone from the Twins organization, because I think that other organizations are doing better with less money, such as the Rays and the Athletics, and I think that the Twins could benefit from someone of stature with new ideas who must be listened to by the front office.

LaBombo
09-13-2013, 02:12 AM
I just read through this thread looking for policy violations. 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Thanks for following TD policy.
.
Thanks for both modding and contributing.

jokin
09-13-2013, 02:24 AM
I like the suggestion of Dave Martinez. A lot.

Dave Martinez and Rays FO executive, Matt Arnold, in a package deal?

jokin
09-13-2013, 02:27 AM
But he's also had two almost entirely different rosters basically forfeit multiple playoff series, has championed a pitch-to-contact coach who may have been a pyromaniac fire chief in a former life, and has through both words and actions disregarded and mocked "cybermetrics", which have arguably had a greater (positive) effect on the game going back to the DH rule than PED's (negative) effects have had.

One of the best and most colorful one-paragraph summations of the Gardy era.

And I would add, how do you get completely wiped out in multiple playoff series with a multiple Cy Young recipient and MVPs on your roster? Gotta think they should have been worth at least a small handful of individual playoff game wins during that time.

jokin
09-13-2013, 02:28 AM
Yeah if Dave Martinez was up for it, clearly.

But this is Gardy's team. Somehow. But if a change happens, I GUARANTEE that if Steinbach wants it, he gets it. Guarantee.

After that, it's Dougie or Jake. Full stop.

Waseca's own Gene Glynn?

TheLeviathan
09-13-2013, 05:59 AM
Dave Martinez is nice, I still think I'm in the Molitor camp. I like what he'd bring to this team that still has some of what the core of the team has been for years (strong fundamentals and smart baseball) but also a lot more aggressiveness in attacking the scoreboard.

I would, however, like him to fill his bench and coaching staff with outsiders.

The Wise One
09-13-2013, 06:20 AM
mocked "cybermetrics", which have arguably had a greater (positive) effect on the game going back to the DH rule than PED's (negative) effects have had.

You are very correct on the arguably part of that statement. Metrics can describe the player better, it doesn't improve the play one iota. There are technology gains like trackman and pitch fx that people confuse as part of sabermetrics. That technology can improve the game . It is not a metric. Your statement is not sustainable by a fact.

Brock Beauchamp
09-13-2013, 06:25 AM
You are very correct on the arguably part of that statement. Metrics can describe the player better, it doesn't improve the play one iota.

When teams are playing better players because of those metrics, it absolutely improves play. Mario Mendoza does not receive 1500 PAs in the 21st century game.

Better understanding of the game = better players receiving ABs = better play.

USAFChief
09-13-2013, 07:42 AM
I just read through this thread looking for policy violations. I was in the mood to delete something, and surely there would be at least a few posts in this thread that needed deleting, but you people are all having an intelligent and respectful debate. Thanks for following TD policy.

My personal view is that although Gardy has been dealt some poor cards, it's just time to make a change BUT only if the replacement is someone who brings something new and valuable to the table, like Dave Martinez. I would not be happy with anyone from the Twins organization, because I think that other organizations are doing better with less money, such as the Rays and the Athletics, and I think that the Twins could benefit from someone of stature with new ideas who must be listened to by the front office.
"You people?" :D

The Wise One
09-13-2013, 07:56 AM
When teams are playing better players because of those metrics, it absolutely improves play. Mario Mendoza does not receive 1500 PAs in the 21st century game.

Better understanding of the game = better players receiving ABs = better play.

Mendoza was a starter on some bad Mariner teams, otherwise a backup player. You didn't much to tell you he wasn't going to be a star.

Brock Beauchamp
09-13-2013, 08:16 AM
Mendoza was a starter on some bad Mariner teams, otherwise a backup player. You didn't much to tell you he wasn't going to be a star.

Sabremtrics do not create a baseball star. Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout are stars in every era. The only application of sabrmetrics to star athletes is whether Trout is better than Cabrera, not whether one is a star while the other is not.

Where the real gains in sabrmetrics comes is from guys like Mario Mendoza, guys who we now know have zero business being on a Major League roster, much receive 1500 PAs in a career.

And you said "metrics do not improve play" and I disagree. They most certainly improve play by filling out rosters with capable baseball players instead of Mario Mendozas. The stars of the game don't change much but everyone around them does.

jay
09-13-2013, 09:16 AM
Dave Martinez is nice, I still think I'm in the Molitor camp. I like what he'd bring to this team that still has some of what the core of the team has been for years (strong fundamentals and smart baseball) but also a lot more aggressiveness in attacking the scoreboard.

I would, however, like him to fill his bench and coaching staff with outsiders.

Yes, please. All of the above.

jay
09-13-2013, 09:21 AM
And you said "metrics do not improve play" and I disagree. They most certainly improve play by filling out rosters with capable baseball players instead of Mario Mendozas. The stars of the game don't change much but everyone around them does.

I think there's absolutely an argument to be made that metrics do (can?) improve play. Better defensive positioning and better pitching/hitting approaches could be directly attributed to understanding one's abilities via metrics. Some of that might overlap with technology (ie - pitchfx), but they aren't mutually exclusive.

Thegrin
09-13-2013, 09:27 AM
I HATE this thread. (Will this get me warned? banned?)

mike wants wins
09-13-2013, 10:23 AM
I have not read the whole thread (sorry....), but I think it is just time for a new voice. Hicks said the clubhouse wasn't fun, Morneau seemed to imply some things about the atmosphere here, and there is clear research in sports that after a decade or so, a coach/manager become less effective.

My more specific thoughts:
He must do something right, as he has led winning teams, I don't know what it is, but he does do some things right off the field.

On the field.....
pinch runs with 2 outs and a guy on first, taking out a good hitter in a situation where adding a pinch runner is VERY unlikely to help (cybermetrics would help here, btw)
the little things have not been done well here for 3 years or more.....that is one of the few things coaches can control
Refuses to platoon players that need to be platooned, imo
Few young players have come up and gotten better the longer they have been here (Dozier being an obvious exception).....if the coaches aren't making the players better the longer they work with them, how do I judge the coaches?

I just think it is time....time for a new voice and approach to the game.

I understand why others do not agree, I think you can reach different conclusions from the last three years than I have and still be reasonable.....

Thegrin
09-13-2013, 11:28 AM
Spam got better.
Revere got better.
Gomez played the same in Milwaukee until this year.
Casillas was always erratic.
Delmon p*ssed away his career.
Valencia's stats were never great and he got a fair shot at 3rd base. He fielded like a Troll.
Nishioka was ... well, he was Nishioka.
Plouffe has played about like he did in the minors.
Of course we know that the new players this year are failing. but isn't that the fault of the players ?
Can't talk about the pitchers because since the 2010 staff crashed and burned the starters have been a disaster. Everybody knows that. Injuries plays a huge part with that.

Gardy does not talk bad about his players in public. We can only guess what he says in private. The Twins still score runs in the late innings when they are far behind, even this rag-tag bunch of hitters. That's a sign that they are still trying. That's a sign that Gardy's leadership still works.

The Wise One
09-13-2013, 11:47 AM
Sabremtrics do not create a baseball star. Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout are stars in every era. The only application of sabrmetrics to star athletes is whether Trout is better than Cabrera, not whether one is a star while the other is not.

Where the real gains in sabrmetrics comes is from guys like Mario Mendoza, guys who we now know have zero business being on a Major League roster, much receive 1500 PAs in a career.

And you said "metrics do not improve play" and I disagree. They most certainly improve play by filling out rosters with capable baseball players instead of Mario Mendozas. The stars of the game don't change much but everyone around them does.

Adam Rosales. Same career batting average as Mendoza. Even played for the Oakland team for a few years. 6 years and still going at 1000 AB. Poor players still find there way to a career with the metrics.

ThePuck
09-13-2013, 11:51 AM
Adam Rosales. Same career batting average as Mendoza. Even played for the Oakland team for a few years. 6 years and still going at 1000 AB. Poor players still find there way to a career with the metrics.

Close to the same BA, not quite...and much closer to 900 PAs than 1000 PAs (and only 819 ABs). Then we look and see Rosales has a career OPS of .624 while Mendoza is at .507. Certainly we can't consider these two close.

jokin
09-13-2013, 12:39 PM
Close to the same BA, not quite...and much closer to 900 PAs than 1000 PAs (and only 819 ABs). Then we look and see Rosales has a career OPS of .624 while Mendoza is at .507. Certainly we can't consider these two close.

Rosales career: OPS+ 70/wOBA .270/career WAR +1.5
Mendoza career: OPS+ 38/wOBA .232/career WAR -2.4

Next time, let's consider apples with apples........and actual Sabremetrics, not Cybermetrics.

SweetOne69
09-13-2013, 12:46 PM
Spam got better.
Gardy does not talk bad about his players in public.

You must not follow too many Twins games. Gardy throws players under the bus in public all the time (especially those he doesn't like).

Cc-twinsball
09-13-2013, 01:29 PM
Brad Ausmus. Baseball mind, would be a good players coach. just a candidate I think we should consider, if gardy and the twins do move on

The Wise One
09-13-2013, 01:53 PM
Rosales career: OPS+ 70/wOBA .270/career WAR +1.5
Mendoza career: OPS+ 38/wOBA .232/career WAR -2.4

Next time, let's consider apples with apples........and actual Sabremetrics, not Cybermetrics.

6 years in the majors and a career war of 1.5 and still on a current major league roster. ****ty player pure and simple. They exist in in this day and age. Not as bad as Mendoza, but not anything good either. That was the point. ****ty players still populate the roster for multiple seasons and play a significant amount of time. Took me less than a minute to find this player. Tried a little harder, Juan Castro, Andy Sheets, Luis Lopez.... There really is a long list of negative WAR player that played a long time in the majors recently. Some could hit just enough to get a chance. Since Mendoza retired there have been 17 players, including Delmon Young, to have a career WAR less than -2.4. Mendoza by the way did not have 1500 PA for a career, but why be like some and pick nits when it doesn't change the point.
John Moses made the list. He played for the Twins. It was his best 2 years. A bit of irony I couldn't resist.

CGNikolic
09-13-2013, 01:59 PM
Why does Gardenhire have to go? Could any manager really do better with this "crop" of players the past two years (won't count 2011 - very much bad luck then turned to crap subsequently)? I would say, at the most, the Twins talk to him about reshuffling his staff (Rick Anderson being the only one who has a possibility of getting fired). The problem is not Gardenhire. The problem is that the FO (Smith and Ryan and scouting) have not given him the players any manager needs to succeed.

I don't see Ryan getting fired, but that would likely bring about more success than bringing in a new manager. Who would they hire to replace him anyway (everyone knows that Ryan would hire someone who is similar to Gardy)? Glynn or Ullger? People who are quite similar to Gardenhire? Mauer or Dougie? Guys who have no coaching experience above class A? Molitor? Who has never managed before? They have no shot at someone like Maddon, even a cheap organization such as the Rays won't let the best manager in baseball out of their hands (and Ryan and Maddon would NOT get along).

So, there really is no reason to fire him. Partly because the failure of the Twins has not been his fault and the fact that there is no replacement for him that would do better. HOWEVER, I would not be surprised if Gardenhire resigns one of these days. He gets no respect from the fans or front office. If I were him, I would definitely consider this option, and as a fan I would prefer to see him leave on his own terms than being fired.

diehardtwinsfan
09-13-2013, 06:40 PM
Gardy does not talk bad about his players in public. We can only guess what he says in private. The Twins still score runs in the late innings when they are far behind, even this rag-tag bunch of hitters. That's a sign that they are still trying. That's a sign that Gardy's leadership still works.

Huh? I can find dozens of examples this year about things Gardy has said about his players in public, and I'm pretty sure the drive to win is why players are still trying... that is if you want to call the baseball they've played lately as trying.

diehardtwinsfan
09-13-2013, 06:42 PM
Sabremtrics do not create a baseball star. Miguel Cabrera and Mike Trout are stars in every era. The only application of sabrmetrics to star athletes is whether Trout is better than Cabrera, not whether one is a star while the other is not.

Where the real gains in sabrmetrics comes is from guys like Mario Mendoza, guys who we now know have zero business being on a Major League roster, much receive 1500 PAs in a career.

And you said "metrics do not improve play" and I disagree. They most certainly improve play by filling out rosters with capable baseball players instead of Mario Mendozas. The stars of the game don't change much but everyone around them does.

There's this kid named Drew Butera who has managed about 500 ML at bats and managed to get traded for a nice prospect :)

diehardtwinsfan
09-13-2013, 06:43 PM
Spam got better.


Most of mine these days is women I've never met saying they want me and job offers for 6+ figure salaries and 10 hour work weeks. I guess it has improved over my long lost rich uncle from Nigeria who has left me millions.

:)

MichiganTwins
09-13-2013, 06:49 PM
Gardy definitely talks bad about his players.

Shane Wahl
09-13-2013, 09:14 PM
Gardy definitely talks bad about his players.

Yeah as a GM or owner, there is no way I would tolerate this.

Kwak
09-14-2013, 12:44 AM
Gardy definitely talks bad about his players.

How many of you watching at home "speak badly about players"? I do! How many of you post negative comments about players? I do! So if Gardy wants to trash somebody--well maybe that guy actually earned it!

glunn
09-14-2013, 02:50 AM
How many of you watching at home "speak badly about players"? I do! How many of you post negative comments about players? I do! So if Gardy wants to trash somebody--well maybe that guy actually earned it!

It seems to me that a manager should confine any negative comments to the clubhouse. What good can come from the manager making a negative comment about a player in public? Why can't this be handled in the clubhouse?

I don't get Twins postgame shows on my cable channels, but I do get to see Scosia and he seems to avoid making negative comments about players in public. I wonder how other managers handle this.

Highabove
09-15-2013, 02:25 AM
Comments from Phil Miller's Column last night
"Ron Gardenhire sounded like a manager who wonders how much his team cares. He clearly wants to make life difficult for teams in the pennant race, but his players don't seem all that interested"
If true, why is this being tolerated by the Manger and the GM?
I guess the players could care less.

old nurse
09-15-2013, 06:29 AM
Comments from Phil Miller's Column last night
"Ron Gardenhire sounded like a manager who wonders how much his team cares. He clearly wants to make life difficult for teams in the pennant race, but his players don't seem all that interested"
If true, why is this being tolerated by the Manger and the GM?
I guess the players could care less.

For the most part you are starting players who have no mlb jobs lined up for next year. If they do not play like they care, they can start them out in the minors or not re-sign the 4AAAA players. I would think they have a clue that they should be playing like their job is on the line.
Albers has pitch a lot more innings than he ever has his career. He might be getting a little deader of an arm.

Sconnie
09-15-2013, 07:56 AM
How many of you watching at home "speak badly about players"? I do! How many of you post negative comments about players? I do! So if Gardy wants to trash somebody--well maybe that guy actually earned it!
I do too, and I don't blame Gardy for the frustration showing. However I don't like it, I hold the manager to a higher standard, fair or not.

beckmt
09-15-2013, 08:50 AM
Of the players currently playing, my guess is that Thomas, Mastro, Collebella, Parmelee, Diamond, DeVires, Hendriks will not be here next year. The maybe category includes Herrmann, Plouffe, one of Willingham or Doumit, Albers, Pelfrey, Deduno and most of the players just called up and added to the 40 man roster. This should be quite a turnover.
That is not the issue and Gardy may have called it, the players do not care, if that is the case and even though I am a Gardy supporter, the manager has to go, players are no longer playing hard for him.

mike wants wins
09-15-2013, 10:56 AM
So Grady can't motivate this group, they do not do the fundamentals well, and he is starting to publicly call them out, and people want to keep Grady?

ThePuck
09-15-2013, 11:05 AM
Comments from Phil Miller's Column last night
"Ron Gardenhire sounded like a manager who wonders how much his team cares. He clearly wants to make life difficult for teams in the pennant race, but his players don't seem all that interested"
If true, why is this being tolerated by the Manger and the GM?
I guess the players could care less.

Do you have a link for that?

Thrylos
09-15-2013, 11:41 AM
Comments from Phil Miller's Column last night
"Ron Gardenhire sounded like a manager who wonders how much his team cares. He clearly wants to make life difficult for teams in the pennant race, but his players don't seem all that interested"
.


That's Gardy's bad... if he cannot motivate his players, he should go. If he has certain unmotivated players, he should sit their rear ends until they get motivated. He can do it, instead of whining to the press about it.

He so has to go. Lost his team.

old nurse
09-15-2013, 12:06 PM
So Grady can't motivate this group, they do not do the fundamentals well, and he is starting to publicly call them out, and people want to keep Grady?

Perhaps you should read the article. It is on the stib website

Highabove
09-15-2013, 12:42 PM
Do you have a link for that?

Phil Miller 9/15 Second Story "Twin don't reward faithful who stuck around"

6-4-3 | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/6-4-3.html)

howieramone
09-15-2013, 12:48 PM
That's Gardy's bad... if he cannot motivate his players, he should go. If he has certain unmotivated players, he should sit their rear ends until they get motivated. He can do it, instead of whining to the press about it.

He so has to go. Lost his team.How many on this team are you projecting to be on the opening day roster in 2015? It's no secret we are holding open auditions, hoping to find a diamond in the rough or a Diamond/Pelfrey/Albers to show where they belong in the pecking order, if at all. At absolute worst they are experiencing a temporary leadership void due to the M & M boys being unavailable.

LaBombo
09-15-2013, 01:01 PM
How many on this team are you projecting to be on the opening day roster in 2015? It's no secret we are holding open auditions, hoping to find a diamond in the rough or a Diamond/Pelfrey/Albers to show where they belong in the pecking order, if at all. At absolute worst they are experiencing a temporary leadership void due to the M & M boys being unavailable.
Can you think of another franchise in baseball that would even consider bringing back Ron Gardenhire after three consecutive 90-loss seasons?

And think carefully. It hasn't happened with a non-expansion franchise in over 30 years.

howieramone
09-15-2013, 01:37 PM
Can you think of another franchise in baseball that would even consider bringing back Ron Gardenhire after three consecutive 90-loss seasons?

And think carefully. It hasn't happened with a non-expansion franchise in over 30 years.

In the big picture of things I really don't care if Gardy comes back or not. My only concern is the Twins start winning again while I'm still young and good looking. I believe the decision has already been made and what happens between now and the end of the season, really only impacts the individual players, as it should.

ThePuck
09-15-2013, 02:43 PM
Phil Miller 9/15 Second Story "Twin don't reward faithful who stuck around"

6-4-3 | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/6-4-3.html)

Thanks :-)

old nurse
09-15-2013, 08:04 PM
So Grady can't motivate this group, they do not do the fundamentals well, and he is starting to publicly call them out, and people want to keep Grady?
I guess he got them motivated today.