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View Full Version : Plouffe vs Parmalee



spideyo
04-17-2012, 08:55 AM
I think a lot of people expect that if Mourneau is able to play 1b regularly, they'll start DH'ing Doumit more and bring up a third catcher. The assumption would be that they send down Parmalee.

I'm wondering if that's the best move right now. We haven't had a big sample size to look at, but Parmalee seems like he's been playing decent defense and hitting fairly well. I think he actually has spent more time in his career in RF than Plouffe, and Plouffe's performance at SS has driven down his value as a "super utility" player.

In my mind, it makes more sense to keep Parm up here as a 1b backup and RF platoon with Clete Thomas, and send Plouffe down to develop his OF skills and find his swing.

I think Plouffe is out of options, but I question wether he's established himself enough as a big leaguer for anybody to pick him up off the waivers.

Shane Wahl
04-17-2012, 09:10 AM
Parmelee and Thomas are both lefties. Parmelee's ceiling is significantly higher than Plouffe's but it isn't clear who would perform better right now in a half-time role anyway, so it is probably best to give Parmelee the time in Rochester to play every day. Plouffe probably would not clear waivers.

gunnarthor
04-17-2012, 09:16 AM
I've given up on Plouffe but since he's out of options, the Twins won't send him down yet. I wouldn't mind Parmelee getting some ABs as a RF/1B/DH type behind Mauer, Morneau and Doumit but I'm not sure if that'll happen with Clete's signing.

Mr. Ed
04-17-2012, 09:19 AM
There's enough of 1B/DH guys at AAA(Bates/Rizzotti)as well as outfielders, Parmelee is in a spot right now. Still don't get the Clete Thomas signing. All it does is take at bats away from someone else.

silverslugger
04-17-2012, 09:32 AM
There's enough of 1B/DH guys at AAA(Bates/Rizzotti)as well as outfielders, Parmelee is in a spot right now. Still don't get the Clete Thomas signing. All it does is take at bats away from someone else.

The Clete Thomas signing was an excellent signing if he's used as a 4th outfielder and defensive replacement in late innings. Thus, it allowed the Twins to put Revere back in AAA to be an everyday player and continue to develop his skill set. However, if Gardy uses Clete Thomas as the everyday RF instead of giving at bats to Parmelee and Plouffe it's not a very good signing.

Gernzy
04-17-2012, 09:38 AM
If Clete continues to play well, then by all means he should be starting.

Mr. Ed
04-17-2012, 10:42 AM
The Clete Thomas signing was an excellent signing if he's used as a 4th outfielder and defensive replacement in late innings. Thus, it allowed the Twins to put Revere back in AAA to be an everyday player and continue to develop his skill set. However, if Gardy uses Clete Thomas as the everyday RF instead of giving at bats to Parmelee and Plouffe it's not a very good signing.

I agree. I think the Twins over-value Thomas, and will play him too much, ala Lew Ford.

whydidnt
04-17-2012, 10:44 AM
There's enough of 1B/DH guys at AAA(Bates/Rizzotti)as well as outfielders, Parmelee is in a spot right now. Still don't get the Clete Thomas signing. All it does is take at bats away from someone else.
I agree that this is the case, but I don't think the Twins view either of those guys as future MLB players, so one would certainly sit if Parmalee is sent down. He's played decent, but I tend to agree that perhaps a few more at bats at AAA would be better for him than playing 2-3 times a week for the Twins. And the option thing comes in to play too. Unless the Twins are ready to bring up Dozier, and I don't think they are, they need to keep Plouffe as a BU shortstop, as lousy as he has been in the field so far. I think we can count on Carroll needing more time off as the season wears on, and someone is going to have to fill in for him.

Paul
04-17-2012, 11:20 AM
Plouffe spent 7+ years in the minors as a SS. Except 08 when they had him split between SS, 2B and 3B. Then in 09 they chose to have him only play SS again. They had 7 years of faith in him as a developing SS. That's a long time. I don't believe he forgot how to throw. I don't believe he forgot what his feet should be doing. He's got the tools. He's got the instincts. The game is so fast at that level, if your head is just a little out of the game it eats you up. The plays need to be made in your head before the ball is hit. You really don't have time to "think" your way through a play at ML SS, you need to rely on your instincts. Built through countless reps and drills. He's done these drills and reps. If he gets over whatever mental hurdle he's encountered I believe he can take back the SS job and hold it down for 7 or 8 years.

Then I won't have to watch Nishioka or Dosier throw rainbows.

Riverbrian
04-17-2012, 11:30 AM
Plouffe is out of options and can play SS in a pinch which Parmelee can't. Parmelee can't be wasted in a platoon situation. AAA makes sense.

Not saying I agree with it all...
Just saying the writing is on the wall.
I didn't mean for that to rhyme...
It just happens from time to time...

spideyo
04-17-2012, 01:49 PM
At this point, Hughes is our #3 SS. As far as Thomas, Gardy did make a point during the presser about the signing that he sees him as a bench player. I'm glad they got him on the field right away, but I think an ideal situation is that he starts no more than 2 out of every six games, and maybe comes in as a defensive replacement or pinch hitter in other games. Of course, that will all depend on how the 1b/DH situation pans out

Hrbie
04-17-2012, 01:59 PM
There's enough of 1B/DH guys at AAA(Bates/Rizzotti)as well as outfielders, Parmelee is in a spot right now. Still don't get the Clete Thomas signing. All it does is take at bats away from someone else. We know how Gardy likes his more veteran guys and better glove guys. They need to let the kids play, within reason, and take their lumps this season. Find out if Parmalee or Plouffe can be legit contributors at the MLB level.

gil4
04-17-2012, 02:22 PM
They had 7 years of faith in him as a developing SS ... I don't believe he forgot how to throw. I don't believe he forgot what his feet should be doing. He's got the tools. He's got the instincts.

I think that "7 years of faith" was based more on the fact that he was a 1st round pick and less on anything he showed in the field. His defense has always been bad and his ability to stay at SS was a question from early on.


Then I won't have to watch Nishioka or Dosier throw rainbows.

I know the arm is an issue for Nishi, but is it for Dozier as well? I hadn't heard that.

ashburyjohn
04-17-2012, 03:05 PM
...but I think an ideal situation is that he starts no more than 2 out of every six games, and maybe comes in as a defensive replacement or pinch hitter in other games.

If he's valuable for his defense and also has a potent enough stick to want to give him late-game chances, doesn't that paint him as a candidate to be a starter?

Thrylos
04-17-2012, 03:06 PM
I think that the should keep the best 25 up North to give the Twins a higher chance to win games. I think that ParmElee is not the weakest link on the team at this point, neither is Plouffe (the weakest link would be Sean Burroughs.) Also, I do get that players need to play every day to develop, but I am more concerned with the Twins winning ballgames than I am with developing players...

Paul
04-17-2012, 03:25 PM
I think that "7 years of faith" was based more on the fact that he was a 1st round pick and less on anything he showed in the field. His defense has always been bad and his ability to stay at SS was a question from early on.


You may be right on the "faith" thing, but I doubt it. Generally the scouts pick 'em and their job is done. These kids are turned over to the coaches. All the coaches in the minors have the opportunity to have input for every player every year. The faith is theirs-not the guys that picked 'em. Obviously, being a 1st rounder means the spotlight is on you. But 7 years at SS is a long time. His defense has not always been bad. I don't pretend to like or understand the stats for D, but in 09, his last full year at AAA, he was 5 runs above avg. He has average range but a very good arm. That means he can go in the hole AND get you an out. And if he can eliminate the brain farts, he can be a plus plus SS.




I know the arm is an issue for Nishi, but is it for Dozier as well? I hadn't heard that.

I've watched Dozier exactly 1 game. I like him. He looks smooth. But nothing about his D stood out to me. I've read some scouts feel he doesn't have the arm or range to be anything but average at SS and would be better suited to 2B. I know Gardy likes him and feels he's got enough range and arm to play...but he also said that about Nishioka...and he also thought Hardy was too slow.

StormJH1
04-17-2012, 03:43 PM
Parmelee hasn't exactly run away with his opportunity to be a starting 1st baseman this April, but I'm not ready to give up on him. He can play at 1B or in RF (well, maybe not particularly well in RF, who knows), and to be fair, virtually nobody on the Twins was hitting until a few days ago except for Span and Willingham.

In my mind, if you're a big league hitter and belong in the starting lineup, you should do SOMETHING with even the limited chances you get to demonstrate that to the team. That's how it works on most clubs with any semblance of a farm system. Plouffe is 25 now and has this is his 3rd season being "around" the club. His glove was so terrible they moved him away from a position of desperate need, and he hasn't done much offensively. But the truth is, if he had been a RF from day one in the minors, his bat wouldn't have been considered good enough to make him a prospect.

So, to me, guys like Plouffe and Hughes have value as utility guys and right handed pinch hitters, but that's about it. I like the Clete Thomas signing, but only because of his versatility. If Revere had to be sent down, who was the backup CF supposed to be? Willingham? Doumit? Mauer? Haha. Gardy likes to use his new "toys" when they first acquire a new player. Clete will play like what he is, which is a replacement level outfielder, and will settle into a reserve role. I'd like see Parmelee continue to struggle while the rest of the TEAM is hitting before cutting into his playing time even further.

jimbo92107
04-17-2012, 05:46 PM
This is why you don't promote or demote people based on the first six games of the season. Revere went to AAA because he needs playing time. If Parmelee goes to AAA, it will be for the same reason, not because he hasn't had a torrid hitting streak.

On the other hand, I see no reason to yank Clete Thomas from the lineup as long as he's on a hot streak.

Shane Wahl
04-18-2012, 01:17 AM
I think that the should keep the best 25 up North to give the Twins a higher chance to win games. I think that ParmElee is not the weakest link on the team at this point, neither is Plouffe (the weakest link would be Sean Burroughs.) Also, I do get that players need to play every day to develop, but I am more concerned with the Twins winning ballgames than I am with developing players...

OK, the point is to develop players to win the most game with them when they are ready to play everyday. This is a long-term view. If Parmelee is basically going to play like a replacement player now with the Twins, it is BETTER for total wins over time to let him develop into a better player by playing everyday in AAA and REPLACING him with a replacement player to win the same number of games with the Twins. Matt Carson, Aaron Bates, etc.

Shane Wahl
04-18-2012, 01:19 AM
This is why you don't promote or demote people based on the first six games of the season. Revere went to AAA because he needs playing time. If Parmelee goes to AAA, it will be for the same reason, not because he hasn't had a torrid hitting streak.

On the other hand, I see no reason to yank Clete Thomas from the lineup as long as he's on a hot streak.

Idiots judge based on September call-ups and spring training stats. It is NO surprise that Parmelee hasn't lit it up with the Twins this year given his SEASONS' long performances each year in the minors.

StormJH1
04-18-2012, 08:32 AM
Idiots judge based on September call-ups and spring training stats. It is NO surprise that Parmelee hasn't lit it up with the Twins this year given his SEASONS' long performances each year in the minors.
Agreed, though I don't think Parmelee's track record was exactly "bad" in the minors. A typical full year for him would be about .270 - .285 with 15-HR power. No, he was never a "top prospect" and you could argue that he should have done better as a 23-year old in AA, but I don't think the Twins expected him to be a top prospect or instant star anyway. A .250+ AVG with 15 HR's, while poor for a 1B, would be passable for him, and probably better than most of our other options in RF (if Morneau or someone else is playing 1B instead of Parmelee). Worth a bit more of a look.

SL__72
04-18-2012, 11:41 AM
Early in his career Parmelee was a three true outcome guy whose biggest concern, and it was a huge red flag, was strikeouts.

He has transformed into a high batting average guy who walks less and hits for less power. While cutting his Ks makes it more likely that he'll be a useful MLer one day, the fact that his XBHs and BBs dropped too his ceiling lower as well.

Anyway, yeah, he should probably be in AAA.