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View Full Version : Roster crunch: Corners/C



Alex
09-07-2013, 07:28 AM
If we dare hope that what we're seeing from Pinto and Colabello this month are glimmers of actual talent and what they could do next year, we're going to have a crunch next year with Willingham, Pinto, Colabello, and Doumit.

It also means it's unlikely Parmelee and Hermann have a shot at making the roster next year, though Hermann's place may depend on Mauer's position. Mauer's position also snowballs to impact Colabello's regular play time to some extent, especially if Willingham shifts to the DH spot as he probably should.

So, assuming Colabello and Pinto continue to produce as they have in September, what do you do and who do you try to move before next season? Where do you see everyone end up?

Rick Blaine
09-07-2013, 07:56 AM
"If we dare hope" are the key words here. I think we all dared to hope Chris Parmalee's September a few years ago would translate into actual season results. We should not place too much emphasis on September production, but we can hope.

Doumit and Willingham's tenure with the Twins will be short lived. Doumit probably is not on the 25 man roster next April and Willingham more than likely is moved in July if not before.

Sconnie
09-07-2013, 08:11 AM
Doumit and Willingham's tenure with the Twins will be short lived. Doumit probably is not on the 25 man roster next April and Willingham more than likely is moved in July if not before. I think you are right regardless of the performance of Collabello and Pinto. Full on rebuild, with those two pieces being the rare twins veteran who is expendable and somewhat valuable to another team.

Alex
09-07-2013, 08:19 AM
"If we dare hope" are the key words here. I think we all dared to hope Chris Parmalee's September a few years ago would translate into actual season results. We should not place too much emphasis on September production, but we can hope.

Doumit and Willingham's tenure with the Twins will be short lived. Doumit probably is not on the 25 man roster next April and Willingham more than likely is moved in July if not before.

Bringing up Parmelee's September is a good point. I'd add, though, that Parmelee's success had less evidence behind it -- a good year in AA. Both Pinto and Colabello have had success in AAA.

kab21
09-07-2013, 08:29 AM
Right now I am not concerned about having too many GOOD players at the corners and catcher. A lot of ?'s if you ask me.

I think Pinto makes Doumit completely expendable this offseason but that is slightly dependent on whether or not the team plans to have Joe catch 50-80 games next year. But Doumit just doesn't fit into the roster as I see it. Nothing against him but he's not good enough at catching to catch and he's not a good enough hitter to DH regularly. Willingham does fit in next season since he's a legit middle of the order bat even if he does block someone (probably nobody good) for half a season.

Oldgoat_MN
09-07-2013, 08:56 AM
IF Pinto and Colabello continue to hit (and Pinto doesn't even have to maintain his .600 BA) then we have a new 1B and a strong (backup?) catcher. Doumit becomes expendable. He's been very good for the Twins and I expect can be helpful to some other team, though I would not expect much from trading him.

Neither of these two really have a secondary position like Parmelee, Plouffe or Herrmann. IF they can continue to hit, well, they won't need a secondary position.

It would also suggest that Parmelee, in spite of his AAA success and his surprisingly solid play in RF, may have a tough time cracking the lineup.

Rosterman
09-07-2013, 10:00 AM
The joy is that Pinto and Collaballo have options. They can start the season in the minors (as so Herrmann) and he Twins can hope to build value for Doumit and Willingham and see if Parmelee makes good on chance number three (or is it four). None of those guys would suffer opening the season at Rochester. I mean, who is coming up that would replace them right away unless the Twins sign another slug of minor league free agents that include an AAAA catcher of note or a Randy Ruiz-type first baseman.

Willingham (as designated hitter if nothing else) can still show life and become a valuable righthanded batsman for sale. Doumit, sadly, would need to be marketed to another team in the majors that needs that third catcher and bench bat. His 2013 has pretty much destroyed his bench bat value, sad to say. He has, literally, become Brandon Inge...who could at least field grounders at third.

These two right now valueless players have put a little cog into the Twins system, because they will take up bench and playing time, and keep the Twins from investing in any more similar type players, just because they MIGHT have trading chip value. I, for one, wish they had just let Willingham, at this point, walk to the Orioles as salary relief for next season rather than continue the investment. Doumit, like Pelfry, must've gone thru waivers and both ahd no takers. I may be wrong.

But, yes, Doumit and Willingham both can't DH (well, maybe they can) but it does neither of them or the team any good to do so. If I wanted a similar DH, I would just take that $12 million a resign Morneau.

jorgenswest
09-07-2013, 10:17 AM
This is the cost of signing decline phase players to multiyear contracts.

Willingham gave the Twins a very good first year and very poor second year. I would have let him go to the Orioles. He will never have trade value. Position players brought back very little in return this summer. They won't get anything for a guy that can't play a position. There are always bats like Mark Reynolds that can be acquired for nothing.

Ryan Doumit might not give them anything for the two year contract he signed last summer. He is one of few players with significant playing time and a negative WAR on fangraphs. That WAR does not even include the cost of his league bottom pitch framing deficit.

The two year Correia contract gets all of the criticism, but the Doumit contract over the same two years has returned much less to the team.

ScottyB
09-07-2013, 10:38 AM
If we dare hope that what we're seeing from Pinto and Colabello this month are glimmers of actual talent and what they could do next year, we're going to have a crunch next year with Willingham, Pinto, Colabello, and Doumit.

It also means it's unlikely Parmelee and Hermann have a shot at making the roster next year, though Hermann's place may depend on Mauer's position. Mauer's position also snowballs to impact Colabello's regular play time to some extent, especially if Willingham shifts to the DH spot as he probably should.

So, assuming Colabello and Pinto continue to produce as they have in September, what do you do and who do you try to move before next season? Where do you see everyone end up?

There's no question that Pinto is eventually the #1 catcher on this team. We know that Gardy likes to go with 3 catchers and Pinto has the least flexibility in positions and the most flexibility on options. I see him starting next season at Rochester. Once Doumit is traded, (not a question of if, but when), the three catchers will be Pinto, Mauer and Herrmann. Mauer will play mostly at first, but still catch about 50 games. Gardy has talked about using Herrmann at first base and he has taken some fielding at 3B as well. I would send him to winter ball to work on both of those positions. That would make him a vital bench piece. He has enough athleticism to play all 3 OF spots (but I wouldn't make him be my main backup CF'er), add to that C, 3B and 1B and he would be extremely valuable. In 2015 I could see Pinto starting 100 games at C, Herrmann starting 30 games at C and Mauer starting 30 games at C.

diehardtwinsfan
09-07-2013, 11:46 AM
Bringing up Parmelee's September is a good point. I'd add, though, that Parmelee's success had less evidence behind it -- a good year in AA. Both Pinto and Colabello have had success in AAA.

Did you forget what Parmelee did in AAA last year? He was better than Colabello.

stringer bell
09-07-2013, 12:23 PM
A couple of thoughts--if Mauer is moved from catcher in order to protect his health, why use him there at all? I think that when Mauer isn't the primary catcher, he will be the emergency catcher only--catching when someone gets hurt in-game or when a game goes extras and the benches are exhausted. The Twins have had three catchers primarily because their "face of the franchise" is a catcher. In order to get Mauer in the lineup when he's not catching, they've felt more comfortable having two backups. If Mauer is the emergency catcher, they would be just fine with Pinto and Herrmann (or Doumit and Herrmann to start 2014). I agree that the potential extreme versatility offered by Herrmann can make him a valuable bench player, but the fly in the ointment is that Chris really isn't that good of a hitter. He's probably overperformed at the major league level this year and he has a .220 BA and .683 OPS. There aren't many sure things--I thought Parmelee was going to be a good offensive player after he hit so well in September '11 and backed it up with a dominating stretch in Rochester. Pinto seems to have figured out how to hit pretty well, but I'll believe it totally after he has a few hundred plate appearances. Colabello is old for an unproven player, a liability in the field, looks awkward a lot, but he hits homers. I am curious to see what his numbers look like.

cmb0252
09-07-2013, 12:33 PM
John Sickles did a write up on Mr.Pinto that was pretty solid. I agree with what John said his possible ability to stay in the majors:

"Still, even an average glove behind the plate is just fine if he hits enough. And at this point, it looks like Pinto can hit. If he can hit .260/.330/.400 with reasonably adequate defense, he would take a lot of pressure off Mauer."

As fans we love our superstars but big league average/slightly above average players are valuable in their own right. I think Pinto has a solid chance to help the Twins going forward. Here is the full article from Sickels:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2013/9/6/4692510/prospect-note-josmil-pinto-c-minnesota-twins-scouting-report

Alex
09-07-2013, 02:41 PM
Did you forget what Parmelee did in AAA last year? He was better than Colabello.

Absolutely not. But the comparison referenced was to their performance before their Sept callups. And Colabello has at least warranted a longer look because of the combination of performances - as Parmelee did eventually.