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DakotaTwins
09-06-2013, 09:11 AM
Where has been the talk of moving Arcia to first base? This seems like a very logical move for the future, given he's a terrible defender in the OF and there isn't really a true prospect coming up the pipeline (I'm not a big Vargas fan).

After Arcia moves to 1B, then you can look at moving Rosario back to the OF. A future OF of Hicks, Buxton and Rosario seems appealing.

2015 Opening Day:
C-Mauer
1B-Arcia
2B-Dozier
3B-Sano
SS-Florimon
OF-Hicks, Buxton, Rosario
DH-Plouffe (if he's still around)

A rotation of Meyer, May, Gibson, Worley, and a mid-season call-up of Stewart.

I'm loving the future!!

mike wants wins
09-06-2013, 09:31 AM
I've suggested it way too often....my biggest doubt is that Mauer will be moving to 1B by then, I'd guess, and then you have a bottle neck. I'd guess Arcia and Hicks split time in RF, with Arcia at DH and 1B also. But that is totally a guess.

I remain hopeful on Dozier, but I'm not ready to kick aside a top 50 prospect for him just yet.....I think we will all know more after 2-3 months next year.

Good thread, post, btw.

Willihammer
09-06-2013, 09:35 AM
Hopeful on Dozier? He's the 2nd best 2B in baseball since June 1.

I think Arcia is fine in RF. Yeah he will bungle a few plays but this team needs bats more than defense IMO.

Steve Penz
09-06-2013, 09:35 AM
I wish the pitching was going to move up as quickly as you project. Arcia to 1B may not be so simple. I believe he has played OF his whole career and the jump to 1B may not be as easy as you think. Let me hit on Rosario and I am not going to let this one go. Moving him back to the OF now is crazy. They have 2+ years invested in him at 2B and they need to let that work itself out. IF Dozier comes back next year and is still the Dozier we know now and IF Rosario is killing AAA then you have to make some room and that is an awesome problem. I see no reason why that won't happen and IMO at that point you use one to acquire pitching. Pretty soon the Twins are going to need to trade prospects for pitching if a real championship team is ever going to happen.

stringer bell
09-06-2013, 09:48 AM
Waaay too early to rule out Arcia from the outfield. I'll agree that he hasn't been good out there but he has the skills (range & arm) to be decent or better and short 1Bs always bother me. Arcia can't be more than 6'0" can he? Let's get Oswaldo hitting again or he's a candidate to go back to Rochester to start 2014.

Physics Guy
09-06-2013, 09:56 AM
He is Kubel from a couple years ago. Plays in RF/LF occasionally, destined to be a DH more often.

Rosterman
09-06-2013, 09:56 AM
The Plouffe question, as will be the Dozier question (where did the power come from and will it stay) will rotate around cost. If the DH is a free agent-type role. Or do you pay Plouffe in 2015 $5-7 million to be that player, who can also play other positions. Like the pitching, the Twins will weigh service time like crazy as they don't want every main roster player to arbitrate at the same time or become a free agent at the same time, unless they DO have the strength in the minors to cause them to move some players every three years. I also think KEPLER will part of some mix, and they do need someone other than Florimon at shortstop to make 2015 work. I would also like to assume that besides signing a BIG BAT, they would also get a top of the rotation starter in the $100 million contract range, since everyone playing in 2015 would be making minimum or close to it for four years.

SpiritofVodkaDave
09-06-2013, 10:02 AM
Arcia will be fine in RF, putting him at first base is a waste.

mike wants wins
09-06-2013, 10:03 AM
Hopeful on Dozier? He's the 2nd best 2B in baseball since June 1.

I think Arcia is fine in RF. Yeah he will bungle a few plays but this team needs bats more than defense IMO.

why is it unreasonable to want more than 3 months of data before drawing some sort of conclusion? Delmon Young had stretches like that....as have many players. I remain hopeful this is who Dozier is, but I, personally, am not yet convinced.

To the question on Arcia, I agree, i would not move him yet, but I'd rather have Hicks in RF and someone else in LF that can play defense, and have Arcia in Dh/RF.....given the quality of pitching this team will pay for, I want elite OF defense.

mike wants wins
09-06-2013, 10:04 AM
Arcia will be fine in RF, putting him at first base is a waste.

Why is it a waste?

Willihammer
09-06-2013, 10:12 AM
why is it unreasonable to want more than 3 months of data before drawing some sort of conclusion?

Its not unreasonable. But I'm not open to trading Dozier for prospects, owing to the fact that he is only 25 is one of the few Twins prospects to demonstrate actual success in the MLB (even if its only 3 months worth).

Given the Twins batting average on prospects this year, I don't understand why people remain so adament about moving established (or establish-ing) MLB talents for more prospects. If anything, the Twins ought to consider doing the opposite.

Winston Smith
09-06-2013, 10:12 AM
If Mauer isn't the full time 1st baseman by then he is sitting at home after getting one to many foul balls off the mask. At that point you have an entire new set of problems.

If Rosario proves he can play and Dozier is still playing well Dozier should beable to play third.

Unless Plouffe really turns things around, and its hard to think he will suddenly become a good fielder anywhere, he will be gone after next year or sooner going the way of Valencia/Young.

ericchri
09-06-2013, 10:19 AM
Have to agree with stringer bell above, he seems awful short to really be your ideal 1B. Plouffe especially and Florimon (and Sano soon) would certainly benefit from a bigger target to throw to.

I know Arcia doesn't appear to be a great fielder, but considering what we've been running out in LF for the most part of late (Willingham, Delmon Young) he's certainly no downgrade over the last half dozen years of left field play. He's quick enough with a good enough arm to eventually settle in as being near average, I would think, especially with Buxton playing next to him. I would expect Rosario could move to left field easily enough if it became warranted, but it wouldn't be my first choice, and I wouldn't make that move until absolutely necessary, which it isn't yet.

I think Seth mentioned he's a much better right fielder as that's where he's predominantly played, but I would think his future is in left with the assumption Hicks sticks around and becomes a legitimate starter in the majors. With the assumption Hicks gets himself sorted out, he has to be the presumed Right Fielder when Buxton moves up, doesn't he? With his arm it would seem strange to put him in left. If they all become good players, you have to believe at least one of Hicks, Arcia, Rosario, or Dozier gets traded to make room for everyone else. That's a big if, but they all look to have talent if they can put it together.

diehardtwinsfan
09-06-2013, 10:21 AM
There's a couple of issues here, and I'm not sure this is ready to be answered beginning in 2014.

Let's assume for a second that Dozier's improvement is for really and we have an .800 OPS GG 2B in him. Let's also assume that Rosario continues to destroy minor league pitching and gets a shot sometime next year and proves he can OPS in the .800 to .900 range with defense that isn't as good as Dozier's. What do you do?

The big problem I see is figuring out who in the next wave will be useful. Pinto, Plouffe, Parmelee, and Presley will all be vying in some ways for long term PT in the OF, 1B, and DH. Then of course there's this Mauer guy who is going to get some regular PT there when he's not catching. Shifting Arcia there now could potentially impede us from figuring out which of these guys is going to be worth anything long term.

In the long term, there's a second question to ask. This is obvious if someone works out at first, but if none of these guys do, what makes more sense? Shift Arcia to 1st and move Rosario back into the OF, or use FA to get a reasonably priced .800 OPS 1B (shoudln't be too difficult) and trade one of Rosario or Dozier for impact pitching?

I think that going to depend on how things play out in 2014/15 timeframe as this team gets good again. I don't see it as an option for right now.

Mr. Brooks
09-06-2013, 10:22 AM
If Mauer isn't the full time 1st baseman by then he is sitting at home after getting one to many foul balls off the mask. At that point you have an entire new set of problems.

If Rosario proves he can play and Dozier is still playing well Dozier should beable to play third.

Unless Plouffe really turns things around, and its hard to think he will suddenly become a good fielder anywhere, he will be gone after next year or sooner going the way of Valencia/Young.

And where does Sano play?

Seth Stohs
09-06-2013, 10:25 AM
Arcia will be fine in RF, putting him at first base is a waste.

Agreed... not yet. Not any time soon.

Mr. Brooks
09-06-2013, 10:25 AM
Have to agree with stringer bell above, he seems awful short to really be your ideal 1B. Plouffe especially and Florimon (and Sano soon) would certainly benefit from a bigger target to throw to.

I know Arcia doesn't appear to be a great fielder, but considering what we've been running out in LF for the most part of late (Willingham, Delmon Young) he's certainly no downgrade over the last half dozen years of left field play. He's quick enough with a good enough arm to eventually settle in as being near average, I would think, especially with Buxton playing next to him. I would expect Rosario could move to left field easily enough if it became warranted, but it wouldn't be my first choice, and I wouldn't make that move until absolutely necessary, which it isn't yet.

I think Seth mentioned he's a much better right fielder as that's where he's predominantly played, but I would think his future is in left with the assumption Hicks sticks around and becomes a legitimate starter in the majors. With the assumption Hicks gets himself sorted out, he has to be the presumed Right Fielder when Buxton moves up, doesn't he? With his arm it would seem strange to put him in left. If they all become good players, you have to believe at least one of Hicks, Arcia, Rosario, or Dozier gets traded to make room for everyone else. That's a big if, but they all look to have talent if they can put it together.

Arm strength is a bit overrated IMO. Not in the sense that it doesn't have value, but in the sense that range should override arm strength, IMO.
Left field plays much bigger than right field at Target Field, and left field will also get more chances than right field against most lineups (more RH hitters than LH hitters).
To me, Hicks range has more value in LF than his arm does in RF. Plus, it's not like Arcia has a noodle. No, it's not as strong as Hicks, but it's capable for RF.

ThePuck
09-06-2013, 10:28 AM
Why is it a waste?

because of the extreme athleticism and capability he's shown in the OF so far would be wasted at 1B...

mike wants wins
09-06-2013, 10:32 AM
Its not unreasonable. But I'm not open to trading Dozier for prospects, owing to the fact that he is only 25 is one of the few Twins prospects to demonstrate actual success in the MLB (even if its only 3 months worth).

Given the Twins batting average on prospects this year, I don't understand why people remain so adament about moving established (or establish-ing) MLB talents for more prospects. If anything, the Twins ought to consider doing the opposite.

You seem to be arguing against a point no one has made in this thread.

Seth Stohs
09-06-2013, 10:34 AM
Arm strength is a bit overrated IMO. Not in the sense that it doesn't have value, but in the sense that range should override arm strength, IMO.
Left field plays much bigger than right field at Target Field, and left field will also get more chances than right field against most lineups (more RH hitters than LH hitters).
To me, Hicks range has more value in LF than his arm does in RF. Plus, it's not like Arcia has a noodle. No, it's not as strong as Hicks, but it's capable for RF.

I agree that LF and LCF is so big that I would value Hicks's range (along with Buxton) out there more than what his RF arm is. The reason for wanting a strong arm in RF is the throw to 3B. Arcia has plenty of arm for that. Hicks, Buxton and Arcia all throw well, so at that point, the range factors much more into my thinking.

Steve Penz
09-06-2013, 10:39 AM
Overall I think who plays first is far down the list right now. Pitching and SS are more important. I hope that Colabello gets a lot of reps before the end of this year so the FO has a better idea about him going into next year.

ericchri
09-06-2013, 10:40 AM
Arm strength is a bit overrated IMO. Not in the sense that it doesn't have value, but in the sense that range should override arm strength, IMO.
Left field plays much bigger than right field at Target Field, and left field will also get more chances than right field against most lineups (more RH hitters than LH hitters).
To me, Hicks range has more value in LF than his arm does in RF. Plus, it's not like Arcia has a noodle. No, it's not as strong as Hicks, but it's capable for RF.

You're probably right, the dimensions of Target Field are a little funky. I guess I do wonder a little bit who'd be better suited to chasing down balls that bounce off the limestone, though. With Buxton in the middle, the range factor gets dimmed a touch. In the end I suspect it wouldn't matter much who played which corner, so if Arcia is more comfortable in right, so be it. I just love watching some of those rocket throws you'll occasionally see from right to get guys out at 3rd.

Thegrin
09-06-2013, 10:43 AM
Colabello is a short term answer at 1B and Parmalee a longer term answer. Let them platoon in 2014 and let Parmalee have it alone in 2015. By then, if Parmalee can't hack it, Vargas and Hicks will be ready or we can have this conversation about moving Sano to 1B.

stringer bell
09-06-2013, 10:43 AM
Regarding LF-RF, there is a big left field at TF and having the guy with superior range (Hicks) play there isn't a total waste. Alex Gordon has a great arm and has settled in left (and won deserved Gold Gloves) so I have no problem if it shakes out with Hicks as a regular LF. It's not nearly as ridiculous as playing Ben Revere in right.

ThePuck
09-06-2013, 10:51 AM
Last year, Revere posted a 15.4 UZR in RF. Only two other RF in baseball rated better. No RF had a better UZR/150. Revere had 11 DRS in RF last year. Only 3 RF in baseball had more....and they all had at least 400 more innings played out there.

He did pretty darn well out there for us.

Winston Smith
09-06-2013, 10:58 AM
And where does Sano play?

My guess is a few games at 1st and 3rd and most at dh. If his defense improves to the point he can play 3b and not hurt the team you have a good thing too many good players.

nicksaviking
09-06-2013, 11:03 AM
I like Arcia in the outfield, I don't need Gold Glovers the corner spots if the CF is rangy. If he shows diminished skills over the years then I say move him but he's too young to give up on. If the outfield gets crowded by offensive talent then it's time to discuss a move, but Buxton and Kepler are still a ways out and Kepler may get the 1B gig anyway. Moving Arcia to 1B and Rosario to the OF seems to take away positional value to me.

Willihammer
09-06-2013, 11:03 AM
You seem to be arguing against a point no one has made in this thread.

I misread your post. I thought you described a Dozier for top 50 prospect trade, didn't realize you were talking about Rosario (is he a top 50 spec?)

In any case, the Twins are in a similar spot at 2B that they were in last year with CF: a young guy recently broken into the league finding his legs is backed up by a promising AA talent. You can either get rid of the young, fairly established MLB guy and risk the AA guy bombing (as Hicks did), or you can trade the AA guy while he still has some guaranteed value. Or you can keep both but have redundancy on your roster if the spec works out.

Rick Blaine
09-06-2013, 11:06 AM
Its not unreasonable. But I'm not open to trading Dozier for prospects, owing to the fact that he is only 25 is one of the few Twins prospects to demonstrate actual success in the MLB (even if its only 3 months worth).

Given the Twins batting average on prospects this year, I don't understand why people remain so adament about moving established (or establish-ing) MLB talents for more prospects. If anything, the Twins ought to consider doing the opposite.


Dozier is 26. Born May 15, 1987.

Steve Penz
09-06-2013, 11:35 AM
I misread your post. I thought you described a Dozier for top 50 prospect trade, didn't realize you were talking about Rosario (is he a top 50 spec?)

In any case, the Twins are in a similar spot at 2B that they were in last year with CF: a young guy recently broken into the league finding his legs is backed up by a promising AA talent. You can either get rid of the young, fairly established MLB guy and risk the AA guy bombing (as Hicks did), or you can trade the AA guy while he still has some guaranteed value. Or you can keep both but have redundancy on your roster if the spec works out.

It would be so sweet if both worked out and therefore one could be moved at the first trade deadline in 2014.

AScheib50
09-06-2013, 12:22 PM
My guess is a few games at 1st and 3rd and most at dh. If his defense improves to the point he can play 3b and not hurt the team you have a good thing too many good players.

I really can't see Sano becoming a DH by 2015. He'd only be about 22 and he's an athlete with a great arm and he runs pretty well for being a big guy. I bet he goes to RF before he becomes a DH. Plus I don't see it becoming an issue as reports have him becoming a serviceable player at third. Unless he really balloons up and outgrows third I bet he stays there for a number of years.

ThePuck
09-06-2013, 12:29 PM
We have Arcia, Hicks, Buxton, Keplar...just for starters...that we're looking at for OF spots in the next couple years...but we're also talking about Rosario going out there since Dozier is doing so well, and now Sano? How many starting OF we gonna play?

It's like talking about all of our #5 type starting pitchers. :-)

Willihammer
09-06-2013, 12:37 PM
It would be so sweet if both worked out and therefore one could be moved at the first trade deadline in 2014.

That would be the ideal but I think extremely unlikely best case scenario. Rosario's 2nd half, after the promotion, wasn't all that promising. It was only 300 PAs and he's only 21, so he is not a lost cause, and that's exactly why he still has some value, I would think.

Alex
09-06-2013, 01:21 PM
That would be the ideal but I think extremely unlikely best case scenario. Rosario's 2nd half, after the promotion, wasn't all that promising. It was only 300 PAs and he's only 21, so he is not a lost cause, and that's exactly why he still has some value, I would think.

Some value? Brian Dozier wasn't crushing AA until he was 24. In fact, at 23, he had a .703 OPS at high A.

I've been excited I was wrong about Dozier this season, but Rosario is on a far better developmental track. Ideally, Rosario becomes available as Dozier gets expensive and we reap good value....

Willihammer
09-06-2013, 02:20 PM
Some value? Brian Dozier wasn't crushing AA until he was 24. In fact, at 23, he had a .703 OPS at high A.

I've been excited I was wrong about Dozier this season, but Rosario is on a far better developmental track. Ideally, Rosario becomes available as Dozier gets expensive and we reap good value....

Dozier's unlikely success in the MLB doesn't change the fact that Rosario will probably fail. There was a study just posted on the board that found 70% of top 100 specs bust. So either path you go, there is risk. Rosario's value could easily be at an all time high right now.

Gun to your head, what is the one position the Twins are currently secure in for the next 5 years? My answer, even before Catcher or closer, would be second base. Therefore I think if there's one blue chip spec you dangle, its the 21 year old (soon to be 22 year old) backing him up.

stringer bell
09-06-2013, 02:32 PM
Dozier's unlikely success in the MLB doesn't change the fact that Rosario will probably fail. There was a study just posted on the board that found 70% of top 100 specs bust. So either path you go, there is risk. Rosario's value could easily be at an all time high right now.

Gun to your head, what is the one position the Twins are currently secure in for the next 5 years? My answer, even before Catcher or closer, would be second base. Therefore I think if there's one blue chip spec you dangle, its the 21 year old (soon to be 22 year old) backing him up.I think Rosario is a great prospect and he could well become an All-Star. He's not in the same constellation as Sano or Buxton and he would figure to be ready about the time they are. Perhaps he would be a really good piece to trade if Dozier continues to be a better-than-average hitter with ++defense.

mike wants wins
09-06-2013, 02:42 PM
gun to my head? Middle reliever, they are flush with middle relievers in the minors and majors. Second bullet.....CF, I think Buxton is no fail, third bullet, DH, Arcia or Mauer or Sano can DH for sure, 4th bullet might be dozier assuming backup infielder or 7th starting pitchers are not options....

Dman
09-06-2013, 03:01 PM
I think that if Dozier ends up at second base then I think they should move Rosario to the outfield and trade Hicks. I don't see Hicks having the potential to hit much over 250 and I think Rosario can be a 300 hitter. Rosario is also younger.

I don't love Arcia in the outfield but agree his greatest value on this team is if he stays there. I think he will see a fair bit of time at DH once things are settled unless he improves his defense. I hope all of our prospects turn out well. We are going to need all of them to compete.

Alex
09-06-2013, 03:13 PM
Dozier's unlikely three months of success in the MLB doesn't change the fact that Rosario will probably fail. There was a study just posted on the board that found 70% of top 100 specs bust. So either path you go, there is risk. Rosario's value could easily be at an all time high right now.

Gun to your head, what is the one position the Twins are currently secure in for the next 5 years? My answer, even before Catcher or closer, would be second base. Therefore I think if there's one blue chip spec you dangle, its the 21 year old (soon to be 22 year old) backing him up.

FTFY. ;)

Isn't Dozier finishing up his second year of service time, making him a FA in four years?

I don't think you deal either, and really, there's no reason to. There's way too much risk to deal one now (both in what's lost and what could be gained).

However, if you wait two-three years, you may have both at higher value (Dozier having established himself and Rosario ready to play 2B).

beckmt
09-06-2013, 03:24 PM
Mauer is the first baseman going forward. You are not going to risk more concussions with him. Collebello will probably back him up, DH and pitch hit. Parmelle is not going to be here. Pinto looks like the real deal. This should put the Twins in a good position.

mike wants wins
09-06-2013, 03:26 PM
KLAW in today's chat indicated he'd move Mauer to more at 1B, less at catcher, going forward.

TheLeviathan
09-06-2013, 04:46 PM
Waaay too early to rule out Arcia from the outfield. I'll agree that he hasn't been good out there but he has the skills (range & arm) to be decent .

Sounds a lot like what we heard about Delmon. Sorry, but I think we have seen enough to rule Arcia out as anything but a sub-par defender.

Thrylos
09-06-2013, 04:48 PM
Arcia is about 5'10" (listed at 6'.) No way he is playing first.

kab21
09-06-2013, 04:51 PM
Moving OF to 1B is pretty rare if that player has basically never played IF so I don't think this is a likely solution. Arcia's role is likely RF/LF/DH just like Kubel.

The absolute most that I expect Mauer to play at catcher is 50% of the time so it makes more sense for him to be at 1B in the other half of the games.

Rosario to the OF is silly unless the team really doesn't think Dozier can handle SS. Citing someone's first 80 MLB games where he struggled at pretty much everything is not a good analysis. And after a decade+ of inept MI play I will be concerned about having too many good 2Bman when Dozier is still hitting next year and Rosario is tearing up AAA. There are a few warning signs that Dozier 'could' tumble next year. I think he's here to stay but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

iastfan112
09-06-2013, 05:34 PM
FTFY. ;)

Isn't Dozier finishing up his second year of service time, making him a FA in four years?

I don't think you deal either, and really, there's no reason to. There's way too much risk to deal one now (both in what's lost and what could be gained).

However, if you wait two-three years, you may have both at higher value (Dozier having established himself and Rosario ready to play 2B).

Because of the time he spent in the minors last year Dozier has 5 more years before he hits FA. Hence why you see a significant number big prospects spent an extra month or two in the minors(avoiding Super 2 as well) a minor amount of time can lead to nearly an extra year of control.

AScheib50
09-06-2013, 05:52 PM
We have Arcia, Hicks, Buxton, Keplar...just for starters...that we're looking at for OF spots in the next couple years...but we're also talking about Rosario going out there since Dozier is doing so well, and now Sano? How many starting OF we gonna play?

It's like talking about all of our #5 type starting pitchers. :-)

I definitely wasn't advocating Sano going to the OF. Just that I bet he would play the field rather than DH at the age of 22.

jimbo92107
09-06-2013, 05:54 PM
Arcia will be fine in RF, putting him at first base is a waste.

Agreed. No proof Arcia can field short hop throws from the infield, and we already know Mauer and Colabello are good at 1B. I figure they'll start playing Mauer in thirds at C, 1B, DH. Colabello 2/3rds at 1B, then DH. Arcia will be RF, occasional DH. Not sure how they'll handle the middle infield with Rosario coming up. Dozier has gotten so good at 2B and is batting so well, now it seems stupid to change what ain't broke, unless you give Dozier another shot at SS with Rosie at 2B. Pinto looks like a nice, fresh, unbruised noggin for catcher.

Meanwhile, it looks like Plouffe has petered out. He seems done with the Twins. Maybe it's because he sees Sano's name on the bathroom wall, like it's a done deal. Watch him and Parms go to Boston and start whacking homers for ten years.

Trevor0333
09-06-2013, 10:22 PM
Where has been the talk of moving Arcia to first base? This seems like a very logical move for the future, given he's a terrible defender in the OF and there isn't really a true prospect coming up the pipeline (I'm not a big Vargas fan).

After Arcia moves to 1B, then you can look at moving Rosario back to the OF. A future OF of Hicks, Buxton and Rosario seems appealing.

2015 Opening Day:
C-Mauer
1B-Arcia
2B-Dozier
3B-Sano
SS-Florimon
OF-Hicks, Buxton, Rosario
DH-Plouffe (if he's still around)

A rotation of Meyer, May, Gibson, Worley, and a mid-season call-up of Stewart.

I'm loving the future!!

Im really high on Stewart but its highly doubtfull to see him at all in 2015. Maybe Sept 2016 and hopefully a fixture by 2017.

Worley will be DFA'd by the end of next year.... They still need a #1 & #2 starter for the next 2-3 years. I like Meyer and a little lesser May but they will take a couple years to establish themselves. It's quite rare for a rookie SP to come in and be good from the get go that young.

Also I wish the push Rosario back to the OF would stop. Your tunring a possible great hitting 2B to a solid to average corner OF? No thanks, you make Dozier prove it another year &or trade him in a package for more near MLB ready SP talent. Odds of all 3 of Meyer, May, & Gibson all panning out is fairly low.

Shane Wahl
09-07-2013, 12:41 AM
The problem with Arcia in RF is that Buxton-Hicks in CF-RF is going to make too much sense by 2015 at the latest.

Now maybe an argument can be made for Hicks in LF, I suppose.

kab21
09-07-2013, 01:28 AM
I don't think we can say for certain that Hicks will hit enough to be a corner OF'er regardless of how great his defense is. Arcia is a poor defender but I'm fairly certain that he can hit well enough to be a DH or corner OF'er.

I hope Arcia is a lesson to anyone that ever says 'he played CF in rk ball so he must be a good defender'.

Mr. Brooks
09-07-2013, 09:14 AM
I don't think we can say for certain that Hicks will hit enough to be a corner OF'er regardless of how great his defense is. Arcia is a poor defender but I'm fairly certain that he can hit well enough to be a DH or corner OF'er.

I hope Arcia is a lesson to anyone that ever says 'he played CF in rk ball so he must be a good defender'.

Didn't you say it was silly to cite someones defensive struggles during their first 80 MLB games, when discussing Dozier, but now have already concluded that Arcia is a poor defender?

Oldgoat_MN
09-07-2013, 09:41 AM
Fun thread.
So far we have the following players listed for 1B:
Colabello
Mauer
Parmelee
Arcia
Sano (did I miss anyone?)

While I appreciate the fact that the easiest place for Joe to move is 1B, there are too many big bats in MLB that only play 1B. How flamed am I going to get if I ask about Mauer moving to 3B?

Do you have an idea other than C/1B/DH?

AScheib50
09-07-2013, 10:21 AM
Fun thread.
So far we have the following players listed for 1B:
Colabello
Mauer
Parmelee
Arcia
Sano (did I miss anyone?)

While I appreciate the fact that the easiest place for Joe to move is 1B, there are too many big bats in MLB that only play 1B. How flamed am I going to get if I ask about Mauer moving to 3B?

Do you have an idea other than C/1B/DH?

I don't have any issue with thinking of Mauer at somewhere other than first or DH. I feel like he could be a valuable asset playing RF even. I've always kinda wished they used him as a Johnny Bench type player. Now I'm just going off Bench's stats, having never seen him play, but he played kind of all over the field....that could have just been due to the fact he couldn't DH? But I feel like Joe's a fantastic athlete and could have been and could be better utilized than just winding up as a DH...just my thoughts. Like do we think Mauer could be a better RF than Arcia if given a few reps out there? If so then wouldn't it make sense to try that and DH Arcia more often on days when Mauer doesn't catch? Just throwing it out there for some conversation, not suggesting the move just yet...

matthew0211
09-07-2013, 10:53 AM
How flamed am I going to get if I ask about Mauer moving to 3B?

I've always loved the idea of Mauer at 3B. We are hearing that Sano would be adequate there defensively, but Mauer would seem to have the range (and of course the quarterback arm) to be one of the best in MLB. I think Mauer at third and Sano at first would be stronger defensively than the other way around.

kab21
09-07-2013, 09:04 PM
Didn't you say it was silly to cite someones defensive struggles during their first 80 MLB games, when discussing Dozier, but now have already concluded that Arcia is a poor defender?

Big difference between Dozier's stuggles and Arcia's.

Dozier has the tools but struggled with fundamentals at SS. Arcia is 22 and simply doesn't move well already. He can improve his routes but the raw athleticism won't.

Alex
09-07-2013, 09:24 PM
Because of the time he spent in the minors last year Dozier has 5 more years before he hits FA. Hence why you see a significant number big prospects spent an extra month or two in the minors(avoiding Super 2 as well) a minor amount of time can lead to nearly an extra year of control.

I understand that, and I'll have to look closer but I thought Dozier played enough days to get a full year of service time.

EDIT: Nope. I was wrong. He needed 172 days to qualify of 183. Dozier only played 125 games so at best he was up for around 150 days.

stringer bell
09-07-2013, 09:31 PM
Dozier only played 84 games last year. He was on the club from May to August and I doubt he'll even be eligible for Super 2 Arbitration one year hence.

Alex
09-07-2013, 09:44 PM
Dozier only played 84 games last year. He was on the club from May to August and I doubt he'll even be eligible for Super 2 Arbitration one year hence.
Yeah, I was looking at the wrong line, but either way it was still under the threshold -- my bad!

stringer bell
09-07-2013, 09:52 PM
Arcia--I think he has the necessary tools to be an okay corner outfielder. Comparing him to Dozier is apples and oranges. Dozier's positions in the majors are crucial defensively. We have Hall of Fame corner outfielders who never approached average defensively. Corner outfielders and first basemen need to hit and the last two days have been heartening in that regard for Arcia.

stringer bell
09-07-2013, 10:06 PM
Mauer will be 31 next year and will have been primarily a catcher for his entire professional career. He has played 56 games at first and right field for one game. While I don't doubt he could be a good third baseman or corner outfielder, I don't see the point of trying to convert him to one of those positions, since he hasn't played there and there is a gaping hole at the position he has played. He is by far the Twins best hitter and a position where he would be very good defensively (seen that already) and yet not as physically demanding makes total sense to me. Mauer has lost a step or two already from his days behind the plate. I'm in favor of him helping the team by hitting and being an asset at a "low leverage" defensive position.

Spicoli
09-08-2013, 10:35 PM
That team wouldn't be very good lol, theres no veteran influence other than Mauer lol. Everyone else is either rookies or 2nd year players.

jokin
09-09-2013, 12:44 AM
Agreed. No proof Arcia can field short hop throws from the infield, and we already know Mauer and Colabello are good at 1B. I figure they'll start playing Mauer in thirds at C, 1B, DH. Colabello 2/3rds at 1B, then DH. Arcia will be RF, occasional DH. Not sure how they'll handle the middle infield with Rosario coming up. Dozier has gotten so good at 2B and is batting so well, now it seems stupid to change what ain't broke, unless you give Dozier another shot at SS with Rosie at 2B. Pinto looks like a nice, fresh, unbruised noggin for catcher.

Meanwhile, it looks like Plouffe has petered out. He seems done with the Twins. Maybe it's because he sees Sano's name on the bathroom wall, like it's a done deal. Watch him and Parms go to Boston and start whacking homers for ten years.

Besides the Sox, the Orioles have a pretty good line on that type of action, as well.;)

Either way, Plouffe in his upcoming first arb year, is a goner, either in the offseason or sometime in 2014.


How flamed am I going to get if I ask about Mauer moving to 3B?


For the record, Joe Torre started phasing out his catching duties at age 28, and permanently stopped catching at age 30. The next year, at age 31, he played 161 games at 3rd and was the NL MVP. (And this "Joe" wasn't near the athlete that Mauer is, Mauer would be much better than Torre defensively). I say platoon Mauer at 3B with Plouffe, making Plouffe more of a lefty-option super-utility specialist. This will help drive up Plouffe's value in trade (he's putting up All Star numbers against lefties this year [.304BA/.852OPS] and his career split against lefties is nearly identical to 2013), and give Mauer enough games to qualify for the All Star game as a Catcher- thus keeping Joe more happy in his new role. It also takes the pressure off Sano on coming in mid-season and having to be annointed as the only available option at 3B, like Hicks was in CF. Should he falter, Sano can DH more often, take Arcia's place in RF, or take a return trip to AAA in a worst-case scenario. I know the Twins have invested a lot in Sano at the hot corner, but as another poster pointed out, the defensive infield would actually be better with Mauer at 3rd and Sano at 1st.

CGNikolic
09-09-2013, 01:46 AM
2015 lineup:
C: Pinto (Not great defensively, but he's better than Doumit or Herrmann)
1B: Mauer (permanent by this point)
2B: Rosario (Trade Dozier within next calendar year)
SS: Santana or possibly Polanco. (Insert Dozier here if prospects falter)
3B: Sano (Stays at third barring a sudden capability to not be able to throw to first)
LF: Hicks (Rough first year, but he will be fine and defensively should be a great LF)
CF: Buxton (slightly hopeful, but you can't doubt this kid anymore)
RF: Arcia (Jason Kubel comparisons are perfect; keep him here and his bat will take care of the rest)
DH: Parmalee/Vargas/FA (Plouffe will be gone by this point, and unless he steps up Parmalee could be gone too. Obviously Mauer is a better athlete/defender than Vargas, so putting him at DH at 24 really is not a big deal. FA would also fit here too if we found an older, immobile player who can still hit.)
Bench:
C/OF: Herrmann (His versatility is key here)
IF: Beresford
IF: Escobar
OF: Pressley
Starting Pitching:
Crap. Shoot. (As of right now)

BabyJesusBuxton
09-10-2013, 11:17 AM
2015 lineup:
C: Pinto (Not great defensively, but he's better than Doumit or Herrmann)
1B: Mauer (permanent by this point)
2B: Rosario (Trade Dozier within next calendar year)
SS: Santana or possibly Polanco. (Insert Dozier here if prospects falter)
3B: Sano (Stays at third barring a sudden capability to not be able to throw to first)
LF: Hicks (Rough first year, but he will be fine and defensively should be a great LF)
CF: Buxton (slightly hopeful, but you can't doubt this kid anymore)
RF: Arcia (Jason Kubel comparisons are perfect; keep him here and his bat will take care of the rest)
DH: Parmalee/Vargas/FA (Plouffe will be gone by this point, and unless he steps up Parmalee could be gone too. Obviously Mauer is a better athlete/defender than Vargas, so putting him at DH at 24 really is not a big deal. FA would also fit here too if we found an older, immobile player who can still hit.)
Bench:
C/OF: Herrmann (His versatility is key here)
IF: Beresford
IF: Escobar
OF: Pressley
Starting Pitching:
Crap. Shoot. (As of right now)

1. Mauer will still be catching in 2015. I would bet my house on it.
2. I don't see Dozier being traded within the next year. Rosario is yet to play at AAA and with Dozier playing like this there is no reason to fast track him especially with how well Dozier has been defensively. It will be a nice problem if both continue to put up the numbers they have recently.
3. If Dozier isn't playing short I wouldn't be surprised if Florimon is still playing there in 2015 although that could be the transition year to someone else.

IMO the lineup you listed is more realistic for the end of 2015/start of 2016.

stringer bell
09-10-2013, 11:48 AM
I can't see Mauer as a full-time catcher next year. His bat is too important to the Twins to let him absorb any more foul tips, to say nothing of the beating that catchers take every day. With no incumbent 1B and the presence of a likely above-average offensive catcher, I think the move will be made next year, at least by midseason.

BabyJesusBuxton
09-10-2013, 11:58 AM
I can't see Mauer as a full-time catcher next year.

I agree he likely won't be catching full time from here on out but I think he will still be behind the plate for more games than he's not. If I were to set an over/under for games caught next year I would go with 90. An argument could be made for either side of that line IMO. **Assuming he avoids the DL**

StormJH1
09-10-2013, 12:02 PM
I can't see Mauer as a full-time catcher next year. His bat is too important to the Twins to let him absorb any more foul tips, to say nothing of the beating that catchers take every day. With no incumbent 1B and the presence of a likely above-average offensive catcher, I think the move will be made next year, at least by midseason.

I'm of the same opinion. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying we've seen Mauer catch his last game (or even the end of him as a starting catcher), but that may be closer to the truth than people expecting business as usual for next year. Lemme get this straight, we don't want to "risk" Doumit catching mop-up games in September, but we'll throw Mauer behind the plate for some post-concussion meaningless "parade" games?! I don't think so...

This organization has experienced concussions several times over and knows what they are capable of doing to a career. Even 5 years ago, the idea that foul tips to the mask could cause permanent brain damage would have been viewed as laughable to most. Now, if it's even an outside possibility, what really is the point of throwing $184 million behind the plate?

The "positional scarcity" crowd is technically right when they say Mauer is more valuable at catcher, or that Arcia is less valuable at 1st base, but that argument presupposes that you're (a) a competitive baseball team where just a little bit more production could have postseason implications; and (b) a potent lineup where you presumably have more than 9 quality hitters available to fill out a lineup card. In other words, if keeping Mauer at catcher is necessary to free up 1st base for...a platoon of Colabello and Parmelee, then you really aren't benefiting from Mauer's ability to catch. Mauer/Colabello may be slightly better than Pinto/Mauer, but it's not like it's the difference between Pinto/Mauer and Mauer/Prince Fielder or Mauer/Chris Davis.

Rosterman
09-10-2013, 12:23 PM
What about Dozier becoming the third baseman if we have better choices at 2B/SS, assuming the Sano is not set for that place and would be better suited at 1st or DH or OF. Arcia needs a mentor on the team, as will Sano. The Twins need some coaching changes.

Winston Smith
09-10-2013, 12:34 PM
What about Dozier becoming the third baseman if we have better choices at 2B/SS, assuming the Sano is not set for that place and would be better suited at 1st or DH or OF. Arcia needs a mentor on the team, as will Sano. The Twins need some coaching changes.

I would like them to bring in Orlando Cabrara next year. He had some fire in his belly, he was a very good infielder and had a winning attitude.
He is still young enough to relate to young players and could be very useful with all the young latin players we have coming up.

stringer bell
09-10-2013, 01:37 PM
I would like them to bring in Orlando Cabrara next year. He had some fire in his belly, he was a very good infielder and had a winning attitude.
He is still young enough to relate to young players and could be very useful with all the young latin players we have coming up.Bringing in a Hispanic coach would be a very good thing to do. I think it is time and the current group might not make it to October 1, although I don't put much blame for this season at their feet.

cmb0252
09-10-2013, 01:46 PM
With Buxton and Hicks in the same outfield the other corner outfielder could be Jim Thome and we would still have an above average defensive outfield. Arcia should be fine in RF.

LaBombo
09-10-2013, 02:32 PM
I agree he likely won't be catching full time from here on out but I think he will still be behind the plate for more games than he's not. If I were to set an over/under for games caught next year I would go with 90. An argument could be made for either side of that line IMO. **Assuming he avoids the DL**
Sounds about right.

The opening at first should have exactly zero to do with how the Twins handle Mauer's future. If first base is not the best place for Mauer in terms of the future of the franchise, then you don't put him there just because you lost Morneau to free agency. You replace Morneau and move on.

Mauer should catch less with the team not competing, but he doesn't need to play first to do so. The Twins burned up 166 designated hitter plate appearances on Doumit, who hit .224/.271/.375 as a DH, and just .240/.310/.385 overall. That's terrible.

It's pretty safe to say the Twins and Mauer could both benefit from having him DH more. And Gardenhire's ridiculous phobia about not using him there more is just one more reason to show him the door to his new office.

Shane Wahl
09-10-2013, 02:44 PM
Arcia is not going to be a first baseman. Really, Sano being able to play third is a HUGE possibility. It opens up the DH spot and eventually Arcia can become a RF/DH half/half when the Twins are good again. I am hoping for JD Williams to continue to be successful as a Williams-Buxton-Hicks defensive OF would be ridiculous.

Shane Wahl
09-10-2013, 02:50 PM
By the way, I will be happy as a clam if the Twins, by opening day, have traded Willingham and Doumit (with likely some other minor leaguers) for some kind of pitching. That's all I really want outside of at least one solid FA SP signing in the offseason.

Games:

Mauer 70, Pinto 70, Herrmann 22 at catcher
Mauer 60, Parmelee 60, Colabello 42 at first (Plouffe could alter this)
Dozier 90, Rosario 72 at second
Florimon 100, Dozier 62 at short
Sano 100, Plouffe 62 at third

and then figure out the OF with Hicks, Parmelee, Mastroianni, Herrmann, Rosario (a bit), and eventually Buxton

LaBombo
09-10-2013, 02:54 PM
By the way, I will be happy as a clam if the Twins, by opening day, have traded Willingham and Doumit (with likely some other minor leaguers) for some kind of pitching. That's all I really want outside of at least one solid FA SP signing in the offseason.

Games:

Mauer 70, Pinto 70, Herrmann 22 at catcher
Mauer 60, Parmelee 60, Colabello 42 at first (Plouffe could alter this)
Dozier 90, Rosario 72 at second
Florimon 100, Dozier 62 at short
Sano 100, Plouffe 62 at third
Looks like a good plan, but it's hard to see Gardenhire going along with a platoon or timeshare anywhere except catcher. If the Twins go with what you suggest because they have a new manager, then I like your plan even more.

It would be nice if they could trade Willingham for value, but at this point Doumit just needs to be moved for nothing to open up a roster spot.