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ashburyjohn
08-27-2013, 02:30 PM
According to

Placed On Waivers: Josh Willingham: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/placed-on-waivers-josh-willingham.html)

the Twins have placed Josh Willingham on waivers, presumably for the purpose of trying to work out a trade.

nicksaviking
08-27-2013, 02:37 PM
The Pirates just got Marlon Byrd and John Buck from the Mets for their #20 overall prospect and a PTBNL. Unless that PTBNL is a surprising stud, it looks like the Pirates didn't have to give up much to fix thier OF issues. Byrd is only owed $130K the rest of the season.

I'm guessing there might not be a huge payoff for Willingham considering what the Pirates gave up for Byrd and considering Morneau is still on the Twins roster.

rickyriolo
08-27-2013, 02:47 PM
Twins front office missed the boast on Willingham. Many said he should have been traded last year when his value was the highest..Today, what is he worth?? me...very little

Danchat
08-27-2013, 03:18 PM
Nothing will happen because the Twins are too afraid to pull anything off. There is no value in Willingham right now so no reason to jettison him. I have a feeling Perkins will have a down year and we'll be regretting we didn't even bother to listen to trade offers.

Shane Wahl
08-27-2013, 03:27 PM
No one in their right mind is going to claim Willingham.

(that worked for Butera)

Tibs
08-27-2013, 05:20 PM
I'd take just about anything we can get out of Willingham and Doumit. Those two guys have been taking up spots that need to be filled by other guys and won't be on the team after next year.

Thrylos
08-27-2013, 05:35 PM
The Pirates just got Marlon Byrd and John Buck from the Mets for their #20 overall prospect and a PTBNL. Unless that PTBNL is a surprising stud, it looks like the Pirates didn't have to give up much to fix thier OF issues. Byrd is only owed $130K the rest of the season.

I'm guessing there might not be a huge payoff for Willingham considering what the Pirates gave up for Byrd and considering Morneau is still on the Twins roster.

The guy who got is a pretty nice prospect and there is word (leaked on twitter by the Pirates' side) that the PTBNL is a pretty decent prospect. Add the fact that Buck is a very expensive back up, and the Mets did pretty well. As a matter of fact, I would not mind it the Twins get the equivalent for Willingham but in pitching prospects...

beckmt
08-27-2013, 06:01 PM
Doubt Willingham will be claimed, but do the Twins take a little return for him. Agree he is blocking spots for players coming, but this could be selling real low.

rickyriolo
08-27-2013, 06:08 PM
Jason Kubel DFA'd by the Arizona Diamondbacks......Do the Twins have any interest????

YourHouseIsMyHouse
08-27-2013, 06:12 PM
He's gone this offseason anyway. Although, I would be excited by a trade because the chances of resigning him would be really slim.

Thrylos
08-27-2013, 06:20 PM
He's gone this offseason anyway. Although, I would be excited by a trade because the chances of resigning him would be really slim.


Willingham is under contract ($7ish M) for 2014...

Willihammer
08-27-2013, 06:31 PM
Orioles facing a lefty today are going with Danny Valencia at DH

nicksaviking
08-27-2013, 07:44 PM
Willingham is under contract ($7ish M) for 2014...

I think he's talking about Kubel.

nicksaviking
08-27-2013, 07:46 PM
Jason Kubel DFA'd by the Arizona Diamondbacks......Do the Twins have any interest????

Maybe if the Twins were able to move both Willingham and Doumit. So probably not.

jay
08-28-2013, 08:37 AM
Could Willingham head back to Oakland? Reddick is out.

amjgt
08-28-2013, 09:56 AM
Having Willingham here in 2014 makes it hard to justify bringing back Morneau, even at a reasonable price. Of the two, I'd rather roll the dice with Morneau in 2014.

If someone claims Willingham, I say "thanks for the memories, Josh," and send him to his new team.

stringer bell
08-28-2013, 01:38 PM
Hammer is the more pure power hitter between him and Morneau and is better suited to his home park. It also will be a contract year for Willingham next year, so if there is anything in the tank, he should produce next year. I kind of like having a pure RH power guy between Mauer and Arcia next year with Sano poised to take that role in 2014.

All of that said, I thought the Twins should have moved two of Doumit/Morneau/Willingham either last offseason or at the trading deadline. Waiting proved to be disastrous because all three fell off (Morneau didn't really take off) in the first half of the season and they had practically no value at the deadline.

ashburyjohn
08-28-2013, 03:02 PM
All of that said, I thought the Twins should have moved two of Doumit/Morneau/Willingham either last offseason or at the trading deadline. Waiting proved to be disastrous because all three fell off (Morneau didn't really take off) in the first half of the season and they had practically no value at the deadline.

Hammer ended the season hurt. It would be no surprise to me if other GMs told Ryan, "let's have a look at him after some spring training games and we'll talk again."

Morneau's production in 2012 plus his concussion history could have made any offers in trade be low enough to not be worth much.

Doumit's mix of skills might not map too well to many other teams at all.

Since Ryan did make two trades for prospects, I just don't see the compelling argument that he turned down offers, that would be difference-makers in the rebuild, for these three guys.

S.
08-28-2013, 05:18 PM
Willingham claimed off waivers, but not known who the claiming team is yet.

Josh Willingham Claimed Off Waivers: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/josh-willingham-claimed-off-waivers.html)

jorgenswest
08-28-2013, 05:20 PM
I think the Twins need to let him go. He and Doumit can't both DH next year. Neither should be in the field.

rickyriolo
08-28-2013, 05:31 PM
Also thinking it is the A's that claimed Willingham...up to TR now to get it done & slash another $8 million off the payroll ( 1 mil this year & 7 mil next year)

PseudoSABR
08-28-2013, 05:41 PM
I think the Twins need to let him go. He and Doumit can't both DH next year. Neither should be in the field.For nothing?

Willingham has a lot of a value on a one year seven mil contract. He's not really going to be blocking anyone and the Twins need his RHed at bat, and he's likely to increase in trade value because he just gets cheaper and can hardly do worse (unless he's completely done).

If we could guarantee that the seven million would be invested in better, younger players, I'd be all in, but I doubt that's the case, especially when we have such a low payroll all the same.

FanFanatic
08-28-2013, 05:47 PM
Willingham has value as a RH DH next year. And, I agree his trade value can only increase. Unless Ryan can get a prospect for him, he should be pulled back. Doumit should be the odd man out.

raindog
08-28-2013, 06:11 PM
I hope they don't give him up on a salary dump. He can definitely regain value next year. Then again, the A's know what kind of player he is and are smart enough to know he's struggled due to injury. I think he could bounce back nicely, any time now.

Anorthagen
08-28-2013, 06:11 PM
Just wrote about this: Willingham placed on waivers - Blogs - Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/anorthagen/4349-willingham-placed-waivers.html)

jorgenswest
08-28-2013, 06:27 PM
I would let him go because...

-DH's have very little value at the trade deadline. How many position players moved this year? Willingham has less value. He can't play any position without costing a team.

-2012 was an outlier. Even a drop off from 2011 when he had an OPS of .810 should be expected.

-Anyone under 30 playing LF has a chance to be part of the solution. Willingham will not be part of the solution. They need to seek solutions instead of perpetuating mediocrity.

Will the Twins begin to rebuild? The decision on Willingham will be telling.

Shane Wahl
08-28-2013, 06:53 PM
No one in their right mind is going to claim Willingham.

(that worked for Butera)

Like, wha??? I am onto something here.

No one is going to trade for Justin Morneau.

Shane Wahl
08-28-2013, 06:54 PM
Is this the Orioles or something?

cmathewson
08-28-2013, 07:35 PM
Like, wha??? I am onto something here.

No one is going to trade for Justin Morneau.

You must be, because Willingham has been claimed, according to Phil Miller (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/221549751.html)

Danchat
08-28-2013, 07:50 PM
Shane, your trick worked! Who should we do it on next?

John Bonnes
08-28-2013, 08:30 PM
Like, wha??? I am onto something here.

No one is going to trade for Justin Morneau.

Nice reverse jinx!

so why the hell didnt the Twins try and put him through waivers at the beginning of the month, when teams were less likely to claim him. Ugh!

cmathewson
08-28-2013, 08:34 PM
Nice reverse jinx!

so why the hell didnt the Twins try and put him through waivers at the beginning of the month, when teams were less likely to claim him. Ugh!

Because he was on the disabled list. He's only been healthy for a couple of weeks. Maybe Ryan wanted to wait until Hammer was healthy to try it.

darin617
08-28-2013, 09:28 PM
shane, your trick worked! Who should we do it on next?

joe mauer!!!

Alex
08-28-2013, 10:52 PM
joe mauer!!!

Booo!

scottz
08-28-2013, 11:01 PM
Is this the Orioles or something?
Indeed it is.
Orioles Claim Josh Willingham Off Waivers: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/josh-willingham-claimed-off-waivers.html)

Oxtung
08-28-2013, 11:04 PM
I think Pseudo stated it well. He isn't blocking anybody in the OF for the first half of 2014. He could improve next season and therefore so too would his return. Wait to trade him until next season. Unless Ryan is offered something of decent value (something top 10 in the Twins system), then go ahead and pull that trigger!

Jdosen
08-28-2013, 11:13 PM
I hope we don't get rid of Josh here. Isn't smart business to trade him at his lowest value. Twins would be best suited to keep him and hope he bounces back next year and has value as a rental bat for a 2014 contender.

scottz
08-28-2013, 11:28 PM
I hope we don't get rid of Josh here. Isn't smart business to trade him at his lowest value. Twins would be best suited to keep him and hope he bounces back next year and has value as a rental bat for a 2014 contender.
I agree that it isn't smart business to trade at low value, but there is still plenty of value in next year's $7m contract in a) what should be a bounce back year (to some degree, not to 2012 levels), and b) is a contract year.

The O's want him for the stretch run, and that would be a weak sell on it's own, but they might be buying hope for this year knowing that they will probably get some value next year as a bonus. I am optimistic we can get a player with some value in return.

Jdosen
08-28-2013, 11:42 PM
I agree that it isn't smart business to trade at low value, but there is still plenty of value in next year's $7m contract in a) what should be a bounce back year (to some degree, not to 2012 levels), and b) is a contract year.

The O's want him for the stretch run, and that would be a weak sell on it's own, but they might be buying hope for this year knowing that they will probably get some value next year as a bonus. I am optimistic we can get a player with some value in return.
That is certainly possible and the Twins probably intend to see what's out there as far as demand for Willingham rather than intend to sell no matter what. This is the most boring thing to day possible but, Willingham will probably be dealt if the Twins feel the return is worthwhile, and pulled back off waivers if not.

kydoty
08-29-2013, 02:40 AM
Indeed it is.
Orioles Claim Josh Willingham Off Waivers: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/josh-willingham-claimed-off-waivers.html)

Willingham for Hardy, straight up.

robbie111
08-29-2013, 03:20 AM
Parker Bridwell or Daniel Ayers might be interesting. Other than that not sure who the Twins might realistically get back. Also for those interested, baltimoresportsandlife has a top 30 midseason prospect writeup for the orioles.

John Bonnes
08-29-2013, 08:13 AM
Because he was on the disabled list. He's only been healthy for a couple of weeks. Maybe Ryan wanted to wait until Hammer was healthy to try it.

I don't get this, but I'm hearing it from multiple people, so I'm open to hearing the reasoning.

The Twins WANT Willingham to get through waivers. It increases their negotiating power if he does. So why not put him through waivers either:
1) when he's hurt or
2) the first day he's "healthy"?

At that point, teams are far less likely to claim him. Which, again, is what the Twins want in this situation. Am I missing something?

mike wants wins
08-29-2013, 08:15 AM
I think it would be great if he left, and they used the money to sign Ellsbury...... :)

Shane Wahl
08-29-2013, 08:26 AM
These are the dudes I wrote about a few months ago (stats NOT updated)

Tim Berry, LHP, starter, 22 (A+)
2013 A+: 4.54, 69.1, 66/17

Twins system: likely headed to Fort Myers


Zach Davies, RHP, starter, 20 (A+)
2013 A+: 3.63, 74.1, 58/19

Twins system: likely headed to Fort Myers.


Devin Jones, RHP, starter, 22 (AA)
2013 AA: 4.84, 67.0, 58/20

Twins system: likely headed to Fort Myers


Josh Hader, LHP, starter, 19 (A)
2013 A: 1.94, 60.1, 56/30

Twins system: likely head to Cedar Rapids.


Torsten Boss, LH, 3B, 22 (A)
2013 A: 221, .251/.333/.405 (.738), 11/2/5, 23/49, 2-3

Twins system: likely headed to Cedar Rapids.

Don't Feed the Greed Guy
08-29-2013, 08:39 AM
Phil Miller does a nice job of laying out the pro's and con's of dealing the Hammer to Baltimore: Postgame: Twins have tough choice to make | 6-4-3 | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/blogs/221594091.html)

I say take the salary dump, and parlay it toward a free agent pitcher $7 million + would go a long way to make this happen. I'd rather gamble on a free agent pitcher than a 35 year-old liability in left field. It's possible that Willingham could reach back into the time machine and duplicate his 2012 (age 33) season, and his 35 homers and 110 RBI, but to what end? Trading Willingham would give Parmelee one more month to prove himself in the MLB, and the first half of 2014, until Arcia, Buxton, Hicks, Richardson, or others push him out, or he produces.

As for the Twins return on Willingham? How about the Orioles #20 prospect, Parker Bridwell? He's a 22 year-old RHP, who has an 8-9 record, and a 4.67 ERA in 25 starts at Delmarva (A ball). 141 k's and 57 walks in 138 innings. WHIP: 1.39 He's a wild, power arm, who has time to develop another pitch.
2013 Prospect Watch | MLB.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/#list=bal)

golfboy1
08-29-2013, 08:41 AM
I'd take just about anything we can get out of Willingham and Doumit. Those two guys have been taking up spots that need to be filled by other guys and won't be on the team after next year.

I think they should be traded if they get a reasonable prospect back but I don't see why they would just dump them for nothing...especially Willingham.

Who are they taking up spots from? If we just dump Willinghan & Doumit who is going to play OF/DH & 1st next year that is doing so good we need to find room for them by dumping ML players?

Arcia need to play, after that nobody is forcing the Twins to find room for them. I guess they can give Parmelee more chances but he hasn't impressed so far. It seems like he starts every AB with an 0-2 count & he can't hit a good fastball.

I'm not against trading Willingham but if he is healthy he has proven to be a very good RH power hitter. With his reasonable contract that has some value.

jay
08-29-2013, 08:41 AM
The Twins WANT Willingham to get through waivers. It increases their negotiating power if he does. So why not put him through waivers either:
1) when he's hurt or
2) the first day he's "healthy"?

At that point, teams are far less likely to claim him. Which, again, is what the Twins want in this situation. Am I missing something?

Just throwing something out here... do the Twins gain any leverage when a team makes a claim on Willingham? The other team is acknowledging they want the guy (or at least are willing to take him on) and now face both a deadline and the possibility of absorbing the contract. Meanwhile, the Twins still have the full ability to pull Willingham back with no loss.

Is it possible the Twins DO want someone to claim him?

mike wants wins
08-29-2013, 08:42 AM
I don't see how it is a tough choice, though. Rebuilding teams trade veterans, and open space for younger players.....

Shane Wahl
08-29-2013, 08:46 AM
Devin Jones or Parker Bridwell are worth looking at, though Jones has been smacked this year.

I want nothing to do with Willingham next year. He and Arcia on the same roster worries me and it is time to move away from old declining players.

mike wants wins
08-29-2013, 08:52 AM
i will say this......it is possible that Ryan thinks that Willingham will get healthy, hit well next year, and have a lot more value next year, so he may keep him.

that said, I agree with Shane, there is not room for Arcia, Willingham, and Doumit to be on the same team as Parmalee and Herrmann and Pinto and the new 1B/DH they sign :)

drjim
08-29-2013, 08:55 AM
I don't see how it is a tough choice, though. Rebuilding teams trade veterans, and open space for younger players.....

When there is a young player ready to take the spot. Otherwise they play AAAA guys and lose even more games.

I'm all for trading for value but no reason to just dump the guys.

Willihammer
08-29-2013, 09:04 AM
Every time Willingham talks about his knee he says how much better it feels. His swing is just a little rusty, popping a lot of balls up right now. But I think there's plenty of gas left in the tank. I hope they keep him unless they get a guy they want.

mike wants wins
08-29-2013, 09:07 AM
When there is a young player ready to take the spot. Otherwise they play AAAA guys and lose even more games.

I'm all for trading for value but no reason to just dump the guys.

We disagree on this probably.....but I don't care if they lose 90 or 85, if they have zero chance of being good. I don't want to watch old guys that are bad, when I could be watching young guys that are bad, but might be good.

And, I'd dump him to USE THE MONEY on someone younger and possibly better.....like a SP or Ellsbury....not dump him to keep the money for the owners and their bonuses in the FO.

Shane Wahl
08-29-2013, 09:09 AM
I couldn't care less about what he has "in the tank." For what? To add a win or two for the Twins until next season's deadline? No thanks.

beckmt
08-29-2013, 09:18 AM
I do not see Parmellee being a major league player, so Willingham is not blocking him. Doumit will be needed if the Twins decide that it is too risky for Mauer to catch more than about 50 games a year, at least until Pinto proves he is ready. Herrmann is an ugrade to Butera, but is just a backup. Hicks will start next year in AAA. The only reason to dump Willingham for little would be to free money for pitching. Then the Twins would have hitting to worry about.

gunnarthor
08-29-2013, 09:33 AM
I don't think the Twins can trade Willingham for a low piece like Bridwell - that would mean the Butera trade was better. They can hang onto him and move him next year after he shows he can hit again. No reason to think his value will get much lower. Even if he isn't hitting much better, he'd be cheaper to a different team and RH power bats usually have value at the deadline. They have room to hold him and Arcia for another half year.

On the positive side, Oriole fans at camden chat are throwing out the name Eduardo Rodriguez (as in, God, please don't let that happen) so it's nice to know they're panicking over that.

Shane Wahl
08-29-2013, 09:50 AM
First, Parmelee hasn't even gotten a chance to play every day for an extended period of time. I don't even like him that much, but this team has been odd with him for the past two seasons. Willingham and Doumit are both terrible defenders, and Arcia is scary right now. Doumit is not needed for anything and Willingham is seriously declining right before our eyes. Hold onto these players? What?

Siehbiscuit
08-29-2013, 10:01 AM
Its September in another lost season. Let Colabello, Parmalee and Arcia stay in the lineup everyday for the rest of the season. After the waiver trade deadline on Saturday, there is no reason that Doumit should be playing the outfield EVER again and taking at bats away from these three. I would even sit Morneau more. In the case that we need to resign him (1 year deal only, please) we at least have some sample of everyday at bats to look at for Parmalee and Colabello.

Also, no more backup catchers playing in the outfield!!!

Boom Boom
08-29-2013, 10:02 AM
Willingham for Hardy, straight up.

Realistically, it's more like Willingham for Casilla.

Badsmerf
08-29-2013, 10:07 AM
Just throwing something out here... do the Twins gain any leverage when a team makes a claim on Willingham? The other team is acknowledging they want the guy (or at least are willing to take him on) and now face both a deadline and the possibility of absorbing the contract. Meanwhile, the Twins still have the full ability to pull Willingham back with no loss.

Is it possible the Twins DO want someone to claim him?
Absolutely not. The Twins lose almost all leverage. They have to trade him within 48 hours or pull him back for the rest of the year. So, it is a do or die thing. If he clears waivers they are free to trade him to any team they choose, and the highest bidder. For the most part teams give pretty fair value since they generally want a player if they claim him. There is no benefit to a team claiming a player unless you want to dump their salary.

drjim
08-29-2013, 10:22 AM
We disagree on this probably.....but I don't care if they lose 90 or 85, if they have zero chance of being good. I don't want to watch old guys that are bad, when I could be watching young guys that are bad, but might be good.

And, I'd dump him to USE THE MONEY on someone younger and possibly better.....like a SP or Ellsbury....not dump him to keep the money for the owners and their bonuses in the FO.

So you want to unload older players and respond by going $100 mil+ to lock up an OF in his decline years?

big dog
08-29-2013, 10:23 AM
I don't get this, but I'm hearing it from multiple people, so I'm open to hearing the reasoning.

The Twins WANT Willingham to get through waivers. It increases their negotiating power if he does. So why not put him through waivers either:
1) when he's hurt or
2) the first day he's "healthy"?

At that point, teams are far less likely to claim him. Which, again, is what the Twins want in this situation. Am I missing something?

A player on the DL cannot be placed on assignment waivers until he is off the DL and healthy enough to play.

pierre75275
08-29-2013, 10:35 AM
I wonder if Baltimore and the Twins are trying to work out a deal that would send both Justin and Josh to Baltimore. I wonder who we could get back if we picked up a majority of both their remaining salaries

nicksaviking
08-29-2013, 10:40 AM
I don't get this, but I'm hearing it from multiple people, so I'm open to hearing the reasoning.

The Twins WANT Willingham to get through waivers. It increases their negotiating power if he does. So why not put him through waivers either:
1) when he's hurt or
2) the first day he's "healthy"?

At that point, teams are far less likely to claim him. Which, again, is what the Twins want in this situation. Am I missing something?

I agree, put these guys on waivers when they are least likely to be claimed, it's the logical thing to do.

I assume the people who said not to waive him August 1, are saying so because he was injured. The commisioner's office needs to approve any trades of injured players. I'm not sure about the rules regarding waivers, but are we sure you can even waive an injured player? I'm not sure you can, as the players union likely would object seeing as you could screw with a guy's service time if he clears and is placed in the minors.

diehardtwinsfan
08-29-2013, 10:40 AM
These are the dudes I wrote about a few months ago (stats NOT updated)

Tim Berry, LHP, starter, 22 (A+)
2013 A+: 4.54, 69.1, 66/17

Twins system: likely headed to Fort Myers


Zach Davies, RHP, starter, 20 (A+)
2013 A+: 3.63, 74.1, 58/19

Twins system: likely headed to Fort Myers.


Devin Jones, RHP, starter, 22 (AA)
2013 AA: 4.84, 67.0, 58/20

Twins system: likely headed to Fort Myers


Josh Hader, LHP, starter, 19 (A)
2013 A: 1.94, 60.1, 56/30

Twins system: likely head to Cedar Rapids.


Torsten Boss, LH, 3B, 22 (A)
2013 A: 221, .251/.333/.405 (.738), 11/2/5, 23/49, 2-3

Twins system: likely headed to Cedar Rapids.

You mean you don't think Dylan Bundy is on the table? :)

nicksaviking
08-29-2013, 10:41 AM
A player on the DL cannot be placed on assignment waivers until he is off the DL and healthy enough to play.


I guess a page four generated while I had my window open for a half hour. You got me.

nicksaviking
08-29-2013, 10:43 AM
You mean you don't think Dylan Bundy is on the table? :)

Yeah, ready to jump with a noose around his neck when he heard he might be moved from the contending Orioles to the bottom feeder Twins.

diehardtwinsfan
08-29-2013, 10:47 AM
Couple of thoughts.

1) Don't trade for the sake of trading. I do think he would be incredibly valuable next year in a bounce back year, and I doubt his value is any less next year at this time should the same thing happen as this year.

2) Don't trade to dump salary. They don't need to do that. My one caveat here is that if htey are dumping salary to make a run at Tanaka or Abreau, so be it, but make that run and don't come back and say "we got outbid".

3) Should get something of value. Yeah, it won't be Bundy, but what I don't know is how well the O's match up with the Twins needs. None of those guys mentioned in the previous lists really excite me much. I would hope they could at least get a guy with a K/9 around 9 in A or A+ ball. There's plenty of risk that far down in the farm that we couldn't get something similar to what we got for Butera.

4) Trading Willingham now would let Parmelee play every day for the remainder of the year. Judging by how he's doing in AAA right now, I'm guessing that there's something he's working on (and not well) given how well he produced there last year. I'm not convinced he's an answer, but I do think that this kid needs to play every day... and at this point, his season has been wasted. Even if he comes back and hits, people will say something about it being in September. The Twins really screwed the pooch on this one... or I should say, Gardy screwed up.

mike wants wins
08-29-2013, 10:50 AM
So you want to unload older players and respond by going $100 mil+ to lock up an OF in his decline years?

There is no evidence Ellsbury is in decline, and if you want FAs, then ya, you'll be taking a risk on the last year or two of his contract....how's the Hunter decline going? I suppose the alternative is to not sign anyone.....

Rosterman
08-29-2013, 10:55 AM
Yes, if the Twins take the money and reinvest it.

Yes, if they get some sort of a minor return.

Yes, it frees up more time for another player. And a 40-man roster spot.

Bless his soul, but Willie's worth to the team is next to nothing. Even if he bounces back next yer, he will be in his walk year.

I say unload his salary. Throw Correia out there too after his last great start and let him go.

Wish they could get something for Pelfry or Morneau, too, unless they plan to resign both. I would rather see, right now, the Correia and Willingham money spent on resigning Pelfry and Morneau for a season or two. Amd that isn't really a happy thought, either.

ThePuck
08-29-2013, 10:56 AM
There is no evidence Ellsbury is in decline, and if you want FAs, then ya, you'll be taking a risk on the last year or two of his contract....how's the Hunter decline going? I suppose the alternative is to not sign anyone.....

What's the average age of FAs do you think? 29, 30? It's convenient to talk about how bad it is to sign people in their declining years when most people who reach FA are on the north end of their 27-29 year old prime.

I remember laughing hard at the people defending Ryan, and later Smith, for not offering more years to Hunter because he'd be paying for decline years.

ScottyB
08-29-2013, 10:56 AM
No Bundy, but Gausman's on the table (I'm sure) - his awful ERA and all.

Dance with Disco Dan
08-29-2013, 11:06 AM
It seems that there are very few prospect-for-prospect trades in MLB. I imagine that no one wants to be on the wrong side of an inherently risky deal. But with the Twins sitting as much minor-league talent as anyone, I would like to see them use that depth to leverage Willingham up to a prospect that they really like. Get creative, TR. You have 48 hours to talk about the players in your system that the O's like. Expand that trade if you can get some arms you like.

ThePuck
08-29-2013, 11:09 AM
It seems that there are very few prospect-for-prospect trades in MLB. I imagine that no one wants to be on the wrong side of an inherently risky deal. But with the Twins sitting as much minor-league talent as anyone, I would like to see them use that depth to leverage Willingham up to a prospect that they really like. Get creative, TR. You have 48 hours to talk about the players in your system that the O's like. Expand that trade if you can get some arms you like.

I honestly can't remember when we traded a decent prospect with no MLB experience for a proven player.

Dance with Disco Dan
08-29-2013, 11:19 AM
I honestly can't remember when we traded a decent prospect with no MLB experience for a proven player.

I am not even suggesting we ask for a proven player. I am suggesting that, in addition to Willingham, we can add a prospect or two to improve the level of prospect we get back. Obviously, there will be 1000s of possible permutations and 1000s of differing opinions on each one.

For example, Mike Wright is listed the No. 6 O's prospect on MLB.com. I know nothing about him except: 1) he posted solid numbers at AA this season; and 2) there is no way the O's send him our way just for Willingham. But, if we add one of our non-elite prospects that the O's like to the pot, maybe they bite. Of course, I have no idea how the Twins value Wright or who the O's think would be an acceptable throw in to make the deal. But with 48 hours to discuss the matter, I hope there are dozens of proposals made trying to get a better prospect than Willingham can bring by himself. Time to start leveraging the system.

Maybe they'll even take Levi Michael and we can all stop pretending he doesn't exist.

nicksaviking
08-29-2013, 11:22 AM
I want at least two of Willingham, Doumt and/or Morneau de-cluttered from this mess of a roster but I guess I'm not for a salary dump at this time. Losing that salary is far from a promise that Ryan will re-invest it, and seriously, what could he really do with $67 million that he couldn't do with $60 million. Add another Kevin Correia I suppose. Hooray.

Anyway, they can always wait unitl the offseason to move him and gamble that he finishes strong and brings back a better return. If they can't move him then, they can dump him and eat the salary.

drjim
08-29-2013, 11:25 AM
I honestly can't remember when we traded a decent prospect with no MLB experience for a proven player.

Capps for Ramos is close right?

Also traded spects for Rauch, Pavano and lh reliever from the Angels (and probably a few others).

Willihammer
08-29-2013, 11:30 AM
O's claim Mike Morse

jay
08-29-2013, 11:32 AM
I am not even suggesting we ask for a proven player. I am suggesting that, in addition to Willingham, we can add a prospect or two to improve the level of prospect we get back. Obviously, there will be 1000s of possible permutations and 1000s of differing opinions on each one.

Adam Walker, right?

As you noted earlier, these types of trades just don't really happen unless there's a reason the team wants to move a guy (a la Bauer for Gregorius).

ThePuck
08-29-2013, 11:40 AM
Capps for Ramos is close right?

Also traded spects for Rauch, Pavano and lh reliever from the Angels (and probably a few others).

except for Ramos having MLB expereince, yeah close...and Pavano was traded for a player to be named later. Who was the decent prospect we ended up trading for him?

Rauch was claimed off waivers and no prospect was traded.

'The Twins originally claimed Rauch on waivers on Aug. 28, sending a player to be named to the Diamondbacks. Officially speaking, that player turned out to be cash considerations—and not a player at all.

Then in a corresponding move, the D'backs claimed Mulvey on waivers from the Twins on Sept. 1 and subsequently sent cash considerations to the Twins.' - Baseball America

Both of those moves were under Smith.

Now, who is the LH reliever from the Angels you are referring to and what decent prospect did we give up?

Dance with Disco Dan
08-29-2013, 11:45 AM
Adam Walker, right?

As you noted earlier, these types of trades just don't really happen unless there's a reason the team wants to move a guy (a la Bauer for Gregorius).

Ha. Our most polarizing prospect. For the entertainment value it would provide this board alone, yes please, Adam Walker.

Since I live at the south pole, I would gladly throw him into the Willingham deal in return for a AA starter that the Twins believed was a rotation piece in the future.

drjim
08-29-2013, 11:46 AM
except for Ramos having MLB expereince, yeah close...and Pavano was traded for a player to be named later. Who was the decent prospect we ended up trading for him?

Rauch was claimed off waivers and no prospect was traded.

'The Twins originally claimed Rauch on waivers on Aug. 28, sending a player to be named to the Diamondbacks. Officially speaking, that player turned out to be cash considerations—and not a player at all.

Then in a corresponding move, the D'backs claimed Mulvey on waivers from the Twins on Sept. 1 and subsequently sent cash considerations to the Twins.' - Baseball America

Both of those moves were under Smith.

Now, who is the LH reliever from the Angels you are referring to and what decent prospect did we give up?

Yohan Pino for Pavano.

Loek Van M for the lh reliever whose name I'm blanking on.

ThePuck
08-29-2013, 11:48 AM
Yohan Pino for Pavano.

Loek Van M for the lh reliever whose name I'm blanking on.

And these are decent prospects? Pino was like the Twins 27th prospect in 2006. Where did he stand in 2009? He doesn't seem to have been ranked high enough in the Twins system to even be mentioned by BA that year.

ThePuck
08-29-2013, 11:55 AM
In most cases, any true quality FA will require a multi-year deal worth good money and that contract will take them on the north side of their career, or as they are declining.

Might as well say, don't sign any FAs or give any contract to anyone for any decent time once the hit 30...since most FAs are at least 29.

So basically, bargain bin shop in FA.

howieramone
08-29-2013, 11:56 AM
[QUOTE=diehardtwinsfan;158466]My one caveat here is that if htey are dumping salary to make a run at Tanaka or Abreau, so be it, but make that run and don't come back and say "we got outbid".

Good post, but there is always a walk away price. I like going after Tanaka with all guns blazing. My guess is 75M for a seat at the table, and 90M -100M to win. Other players are Yankees, Rangers, Red Sox, and Dodgers.

IMHO this is where Ryan should take his shot, but there is always a walk away price.

Steve Lein
08-29-2013, 12:15 PM
Yohan Pino for Pavano.

Loek Van M for the lh reliever whose name I'm blanking on.

Brian Fuentes.

ThePuck
08-29-2013, 12:20 PM
Brian Fuentes.

Van Mil was ranked as the Twins 39th ranked prospect by Gleeman when he was trade for Fuentes...Twins 29th ranked by BA

robbie111
08-29-2013, 12:20 PM
If the O's are trying to get both Willingham and Morneau then would Dylan Bundy be on the table? Considering he just had Tommy John surgery, still think he would be worth the risk if offered.

Rosterman
08-29-2013, 12:21 PM
Yohan Pino for Pavano.

Loek Van M for the lh reliever whose name I'm blanking on.

Brian Fuentes was the name you are looking for.....

claryad
08-29-2013, 12:25 PM
Here is a link to MLB.com for the top 20 prospects per team.

2013 Prospect Watch | MLB.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/index.jsp?tcid=mm_mlb_players)

I would be very interested in Mike Wright (sp) Zachary Davies (sp) Adrian Marin (ss) or Michael Ohlman (c) for Hammer and JM

Old Twins Cap
08-29-2013, 12:30 PM
Just in: Baltimore gives us Casilla and Valencia in exchange for JWill.

Burp.

Chance
08-29-2013, 12:57 PM
I would be interested in a Willingham/Morneau for Bundy or Wright trade. I think it is possible based on Baltimores needs and Bundy having TJ. They are making a push this year and the two of them plus Willingham for another affordable year might be enough. I would throw in a PTBNL or cash (eat what's left of Morneau's contract) to make it happen.

jay
08-29-2013, 12:58 PM
Burp.

How'd that taste? Kinda like old chicken?

jay
08-29-2013, 01:00 PM
I would be interested in a Willingham/Morneau for Bundy or Wright trade. I think it is possible based on Baltimores needs and Bundy having TJ. They are making a push this year and the two of them plus Willingham for another affordable year might be enough. I would throw in a PTBNL or cash (eat what's left of Morneau's contract) to make it happen.

Chance, there is 0% chance of that.

But maybe if we throw in Adam Walker and Brian Duensing.......

drjim
08-29-2013, 01:11 PM
And these are decent prospects? Pino was like the Twins 27th prospect in 2006. Where did he stand in 2009? He doesn't seem to have been ranked high enough in the Twins system to even be mentioned by BA that year.

The other thing these all had in common is that they were August waiver trades. Not sure I would trade Morneau and certainly not Willingham for that quality.

diehardtwinsfan
08-29-2013, 01:15 PM
If the O's are trying to get both Willingham and Morneau then would Dylan Bundy be on the table? Considering he just had Tommy John surgery, still think he would be worth the risk if offered.

No
Yes, and Ryan would take it before they O's could rethink it.

zenser
08-29-2013, 01:24 PM
The return for Willingham isn't going to be great. The O's also claimed Mike Morse. I am guessing that is a bargaining chip they will use.

Orioles Claim Mike Morse Off Waivers: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/orioles-claim-mike-morse-off-waivers.html)

mike wants wins
08-29-2013, 01:26 PM
No Bundy, but Gausman's on the table (I'm sure) - his awful ERA and all.

No chance, one bad year in his first year in teh majors doesn't make a guy go from top10 pitching prospect to available for a 33 year old OFer. Now, MAYBE, if you combine him with May or Berrios, MAYBE, you can get Gausmann, but I doubt it.

Monkeypaws
08-29-2013, 01:38 PM
What do the Orioles have a surplus of on the farm?

claryad
08-29-2013, 01:45 PM
Wasn't the deadline at noon?

mike wants wins
08-29-2013, 01:46 PM
What do the Orioles have a surplus of on the farm?

Corn, or soy beans, I can't recall right now.

gunnarthor
08-29-2013, 01:51 PM
Wasn't the deadline at noon?

Noon tomorrow

gunnarthor
08-29-2013, 01:54 PM
What do the Orioles have a surplus of on the farm?

Pitching, actually. The problem for them is that the last few years they've brought up a lot of highly regarded pitching prospects who haven't done that well.

jay
08-29-2013, 01:56 PM
Excellent move by the O's to also claim Morse. Both are struggling righty power hitters with marginal defense. Morse has the advantage (or disadvantage?) of not being under contract for next year.

If the O's do truly intend to acquire someone, they can basically play them off each other and take the lowest bid.

Alex
08-29-2013, 02:04 PM
Excellent move by the O's to also claim Morse. Both are struggling righty power hitters with marginal defense. Morse has the advantage (or disadvantage?) of not being under contract for next year.

If the O's do truly intend to acquire someone, they can basically play them off each other and take the lowest bid.

Great insight. Makes me think they aren't really interested in the Hammer because of the extra year on the contract and he's the ruse.

jay
08-29-2013, 02:21 PM
Makes me think they aren't really interested in the Hammer because of the extra year on the contract and he's the ruse.

I'd have to agree. Not sure why they wouldn't take Morse if all else is about equal.

diehardtwinsfan
08-29-2013, 02:42 PM
that could backfire if both teams chose not to revoke them.

John Bonnes
08-29-2013, 02:49 PM
It's also quite possible that the Orioles claimed him to block him from someone else who they're currently chasing.

Chance
08-29-2013, 02:50 PM
Chance, there is 0% chance of that.

But maybe if we throw in Adam Walker and Brian Duensing.......

I would gladly throw in both. Anyone else they would like to add to the deal?

Chance
08-29-2013, 02:54 PM
It's also quite possible that the Orioles claimed him to block him from someone else who they're currently chasing.

This is very possible they have been making a lot of claims (also rumored to have claimed Morales) but no trades. It's possible they are just being defensive and don't have an interest in any of these guys unless the seller is basically trying to unload them.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-29-2013, 03:01 PM
Willingham+Deunsing+Wimmers+Pat Dean+Plouffe for Macahado Straight up.

Chance
08-29-2013, 03:02 PM
I would gladly throw in both. Anyone else they would like to add to the deal?

I want to clarify. Besides Mauer, Perkins, Arcia, for the most part, anyone in our top 10 prospects, plus a hand full of others; I would be willing to throw in with both Willingham and Morneau.

John Bonnes
08-29-2013, 03:02 PM
Willingham+Deunsing+Wimmers+Pat Dean+Plouffe for Macahado Straight up. Don't forget to include Butera.

jay
08-29-2013, 03:06 PM
Don't forget to include Butera.

And Casilla. Wait a sec...

ericchri
08-29-2013, 03:16 PM
that could backfire if both teams chose not to revoke them.

That is what seems a bit puzzling. It's not likely to happen of course, but if both teams said "have 'em", it would suddenly look like an overplay by the Orioles.

drjim
08-29-2013, 03:18 PM
Let's get real and at least add Baxendale and maybe Dinkelman.

kab21
08-29-2013, 03:41 PM
I think you just keep Willingham, possibly part ways with Morneau and reduce Doumit's playing time. He's the one guy that is a legit middle of the order bat that can allow Arcia and later on Sano to bat lower in the lineup and take some pressure off of them. Just because the Twins are rebuilding doesn't mean they should have 8 young players and Mauer in the lineup.

At this point I might bring back Morneau as well since Parmelee isn't hitting anywhere this year. He isn't having a great year but at least he's an actual MLB hitter. Put Mauer at 1B against lefties and Doumit behind the plate those days.

Alex
08-29-2013, 07:25 PM
For anyone that thinks there's actually a rational baseball reason for signing Justin Morneau, you should read this piece from a fan of another team: The Problem With Justin Morneau - The Triangle Blog - Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/72749/the-problem-with-justin-morneau)

Thrylos
08-29-2013, 08:04 PM
At this point, just getting rid of Willingham (letting the Orioles take him for nothing) is a win for the Twins, since a. Arcia/Parmelee will be unblocked, b. give some young players more playing time in 2013 and c. the Twins will save $9M that they can put towards a real starting pitcher for 2014.

I cannot see any negatives about letting him go at this point. The past is past and Ryan should had traded him last off-season and it was a mistake he did not. I hope that he does not make the same mistake twice, but it is Ryan we're talking about...

stringer bell
08-29-2013, 08:09 PM
Next year Willingham figures to bounce back. He will be in his walk year and presumably healthy. If he's hitting between Arcia and Mauer, he could see a lot of good pitches to hit.

stringer bell
08-29-2013, 08:14 PM
For anyone that thinks there's actually a rational baseball reason for signing Justin Morneau, you should read this piece from a fan of another team: The Problem With Justin Morneau - The Triangle Blog - Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/72749/the-problem-with-justin-morneau)That is a fine column. It pretty much summarizes how I feel about Justin. It is time for him to go.

PseudoSABR
08-29-2013, 08:51 PM
For anyone that thinks there's actually a rational baseball reason for signing Justin Morneau, you should read this piece from a fan of another team: The Problem With Justin Morneau - The Triangle Blog - Grantland (http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/72749/the-problem-with-justin-morneau)

I actually take issue with a few things in the this article that don't quite jive:

He’s an impending free agent, and as a veteran bat with a reputation for hitting for power, he’ll probably require a non-trivial amount of money to sign to a contract extension. That would be unwise for two reasons: First, if Morneau returns to Minnesota, he’d expect to play often. The best thing about Minnesota right now is the health of its farm system — not only are the Twins unlikely to contend for the division before Morneau’s obsolescence, they also need to blood the youngsters who will be coming up in the coming years, and every at-bat Morneau gets would probably be better spent developing Miguel Sano or Oswaldo Arcia. I don't think he's going to cost all that much to retain (he's a league average (or less) first baseman). And he's really not blocking one, at least for the next couple of years. (The notion that he's taking at bats (or would be) from Arcia or Sano is pretty out of touch).

Sure, there's some sentiment in my wanting Morneau to remain a Twins for a couple more years, but there's also rational baseball reasons, too. Parmelee doesn't look great, the DH is currently filled with a rotating veteran anyway, and he should come relatively cheap.

Mr. Brooks
08-29-2013, 09:39 PM
I actually take issue with a few things in the this article that don't quite jive:
I don't think he's going to cost all that much to retain (he's a league average (or less) first baseman). And he's really not blocking one, at least for the next couple of years. (The notion that he's taking at bats (or would be) from Arcia or Sano is pretty out of touch).

Sure, there's some sentiment in my wanting Morneau to remain a Twins for a couple more years, but there's also rational baseball reasons, too. Parmelee doesn't look great, the DH is currently filled with a rotating veteran anyway, and he should come relatively cheap.

Parmelee hasn't looked great, and I, along with others, don't think he'll be an everyday MLB player. But, that doesn't make it fact.
There were plenty of rational people, both here and in the media, who thought the same thing about Brian Dozier.
The only way to find out for sure, is to let him play every single day, for an entire season. EVERY DAY. He's a young pup, he doesn't need days off. He doesn't need to sit against lefties. The only way to get better against lefties is to play against lefties.
Unfortunately, that will never happen as long as Morneau, Willingham, and Doumit are on the roster.
If Gardy is the manager, and those 3 players are on the roster, Parmelee will get jerked in and out of the lineup, and we'll never know, for sure, if he is an MLB player or not.

freshinthehouse
08-29-2013, 10:04 PM
I wouldn't be outraged if the Twins re-signed Mourneau, but I'd much rather they roll with what they have (Parmalee/Collabello). I haven't given up on either of those two, and would love to see them get consistant ABs next year. If the Twins are going to spend money at first, throw it at that kid from Cuba.

PseudoSABR
08-30-2013, 01:40 AM
Parmelee hasn't looked great, and I, along with others, don't think he'll be an everyday MLB player. But, that doesn't make it fact.
There were plenty of rational people, both here and in the media, who thought the same thing about Brian Dozier.
The only way to find out for sure, is to let him play every single day, for an entire season. EVERY DAY. He's a young pup, he doesn't need days off. He doesn't need to sit against lefties. The only way to get better against lefties is to play against lefties.
Unfortunately, that will never happen as long as Morneau, Willingham, and Doumit are on the roster.
If Gardy is the manager, and those 3 players are on the roster, Parmelee will get jerked in and out of the lineup, and we'll never know, for sure, if he is an MLB player or not.Right, it's not a fact that Parm will fail as MLBer, but it's hardly a truth that he'll succeed. We're gambling, here. Not making truths.

diehardtwinsfan
08-30-2013, 06:22 AM
Parmelee hasn't looked great, and I, along with others, don't think he'll be an everyday MLB player. But, that doesn't make it fact.
There were plenty of rational people, both here and in the media, who thought the same thing about Brian Dozier.
The only way to find out for sure, is to let him play every single day, for an entire season. EVERY DAY. He's a young pup, he doesn't need days off. He doesn't need to sit against lefties. The only way to get better against lefties is to play against lefties.
Unfortunately, that will never happen as long as Morneau, Willingham, and Doumit are on the roster.
If Gardy is the manager, and those 3 players are on the roster, Parmelee will get jerked in and out of the lineup, and we'll never know, for sure, if he is an MLB player or not.

You hit the nail on the head here... Though truthfully, we only need one of them to go for Parmelee to get consistent PT. Personally, I think it should be Doumit, but Willie or Morneau leaving would open up a spot as well.

TheLeviathan
08-30-2013, 07:19 AM
Right, it's not a fact that Parm will fail as MLBer, but it's hardly a truth that he'll succeed. We're gambling, here. Not making truths.

Right but we only find that out if he plays.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 08:24 AM
Not to mention, Doumit, Willingham, and Morneau are 1/3 of the hitters on one of the worst offenses in MLB the last few years.....not sure why people want to keep them, or even two of them, around.

USAFChief
08-30-2013, 08:27 AM
Not to mention, Doumit, Willingham, and Morneau are 1/3 of the hitters on one of the worst offenses in MLB the last few years.....not sure why people want to keep them, or even two of them, around.
By that logic Mauer needs to go too, right?

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 08:29 AM
By that logic Mauer needs to go too, right?

Excpet Mauer is good.....they are not. But ya, that was sloppy language....and Mauer is signed for 5 more years....and is the face of the franchise.

USAFChief
08-30-2013, 08:36 AM
Excpet Mauer is good.....they are not. But ya, that was sloppy language....and Mauer is signed for 5 more years....and is the face of the franchise.
Willingham and Doumit both had good seasons as recently as 2012, and were often cited as reasons for optimism about the offense going into 2013. I think they are both excellent bounce back candidates, are signed cheaply, and the time to trade them is when they recover some value, or at the least when someone from the minors is pushing them off their spot. Neither of those are true right now.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 08:42 AM
Pinto should be the backup catcher next year, not Doumit, imo. He might have a future. Herrman can be the third catcher, and plays RF better than Doumit. I just don't see a reaason for him to be on the roster. I have acknowledged that keeping Willingham might make sense. I see no reason to keep Justin. They can sign the Cuban. they can sign others. They can sign Ellsbury and move Arcia to 1B. Lots and lots of options are better than Morneau (and he's my favorite Twin of the recent era).

zenser
08-30-2013, 08:56 AM
[QUOTE=Thrylos;158709 c. the Twins will save $9M that they can put towards a real starting pitcher for 2014.
QUOTE]

I like this idea but we all know that we will more than likely give 3 crappy pitchers $3 million each.

golfboy1
08-30-2013, 08:58 AM
Not to mention, Doumit, Willingham, and Morneau are 1/3 of the hitters on one of the worst offenses in MLB the last few years.....not sure why people want to keep them, or even two of them, around.

This year, yes they have been bad. Last year Willingham had 35H'sR & 110RBI's & Doumit was 18 & 75. Morneau was/is untradeable with his contract & his stats.

Unless the Twins did an Astro's style complete rebuild they weren't going to unload them last winter. Ryan has taken the approach of trying to stay competitive & rebuild at the same time. You could argue whether this is best but I can see their rationale in this approach.

This winter I would hope that Morneau isn't resigned & they try to move Willingham at some point. Doumit has little value & they might as well keep him for now.

If they are going to get rid of them just because they are 1/3 of one of the worst offenses in the league(this year)....they better get rid of Plouffe,Thomas, Florimon, etc. Someone has to play & right now there doesn't appear to be anyone better to take their place.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 09:02 AM
I don't agree there are not better options next year.

Sign the Cuban 1B, sign Ellsbury, bring up Pinto, move Arcia/Mauer to 1B/DH (and RF and C), Herrmann as the utility RF/Dh/3rd catcher, lots and lots of moves are avialable.

Oh, and if they roll out Thomas, Plouffe, Morneau, Doumit, Floriman..as 55% of the lineup most days...you really think the offense is going to be "competitive"?

Oldgoat_MN
08-30-2013, 09:08 AM
I am not of the notion that Morneau is easily replaceable. I believe he is a much safer choice for next year than Parmelee or Colabello.

However, both of those guys have raked in AAA. Could one of them be for real against MLB pitching? Maybe.

Do we go into next year uncertain that either can hit, but plan of making a decision after 400 PA? That could be very costly to our Win/Loss record.

old nurse
08-30-2013, 09:16 AM
Right but we only find that out if he plays.

600 PA at the major league level. For that time he is league average iso and babip, way above league average in strikeouts. He would be an average hitter if he could only make contact with the ball when pitched. Why doesn't he make contact? Mechanical error? Not quite fast enough?

golfboy1
08-30-2013, 09:48 AM
I don't agree there are not better options next year.

Sign the Cuban 1B, sign Ellsbury, bring up Pinto, move Arcia/Mauer to 1B/DH (and RF and C), Herrmann as the utility RF/Dh/3rd catcher, lots and lots of moves are avialable.

Oh, and if they roll out Thomas, Plouffe, Morneau, Doumit, Floriman..as 55% of the lineup most days...you really think the offense is going to be "competitive"?

I'm not sure if you are replying to me but...

I agree they should try whatever they can to improve .Hopefully Morneau isn't back & I don't mind them trading Willingham for a decent prospect. Maybe the Cuban 1b is an option but I don't see Ellsbury as an option. He is going to want a LOT of money for a LOT of years. That doesn't fit the Twins MO & why sign a CF long term when that is the position we have minor league strength at?

"Oh, and if they roll out Thomas, Plouffe, Morneau, Doumit, Floriman..as 55% of the lineup most days...you really think the offense is going to be "competitive"? "

Sadly, no. I think they are going to suck next year also. But my point was the whole offense...minus Mauer, sucks. Dumping 2 guys that have a proven history of producingwhile we keep running guys like Plouoffe, Thomas, Hermann Berneir , etc out there just shows how much work the Twins have to do & how hard it can be to acquire good, solid players.

It's easy to say.. They suck, let's get someone else in here but it's actually not that easy to find players who are better. I'm sick of seeing Thomas & Plouffe at the plate every game but the reality is they haven't found anyone better right now. Maybe.(big maybe).. Parmelee produces but I'm willing to bet he never puts up numbers as good as Willingham did in 2012 or previous seasons.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 09:57 AM
Ellsbury could play LF when Buxton is up.....and he's good, and not slowing down. And they have the money, I'm offering options for the team to be better, if they choose to cut off one channel for doing that, that's their decision. And, the cuban is going to want a lot of money for a lot of years.....They don't have a GLUT of OFers....we don't know if Hicks can hit, Arcia looks bad in the field, Kepler is going to be a 1B/Dh over time (if he's even good, he's in low A)....there is plenty of room for a proven veteran that contributs 3 WAR a year, both on the field and in the budget.

Ellsbury makes them better next year, and for several years beyond. They won't sign pitchers to long deals, maybe they should spend that money on hitters.

birdwatcher
08-30-2013, 10:01 AM
Willingham and Doumit both had good seasons as recently as 2012, and were often cited as reasons for optimism about the offense going into 2013. I think they are both excellent bounce back candidates, are signed cheaply, and the time to trade them is when they recover some value, or at the least when someone from the minors is pushing them off their spot. Neither of those are true right now.

Perfectly stated.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 10:06 AM
Well, the Twins and their fans were optimistic about Doumit, Fangraphs predicted he'd be bad and part of the problem with the Twins this year.....

I guess the part I struggle with is that this team has lost a lot the last three years, and people seem to be proposing keeping the same team together....that seems unlikely to lead to much improvement, imo.

Monkeypaws
08-30-2013, 10:09 AM
Ellsbury could play LF when Buxton is up.....and he's good, and not slowing down. And they have the money, I'm offering options for the team to be better, if they choose to cut off one channel for doing that, that's their decision. And, the cuban is going to want a lot of money for a lot of years.....They don't have a GLUT of OFers....we don't know if Hicks can hit, Arcia looks bad in the field, Kepler is going to be a 1B/Dh over time (if he's even good, he's in low A)....there is plenty of room for a proven veteran that contributs 3 WAR a year, both on the field and in the budget.

Ellsbury makes them better next year, and for several years beyond. They won't sign pitchers to long deals, maybe they should spend that money on hitters.

Why would Ellsbury sign here?

Going from a powerhouse that spends freely to a doormat that does not?

Makes no sense to me to even think it is in the realm of possibility.

Tibs
08-30-2013, 10:12 AM
I would love to have Ellsbury, but I'm doubtful he will come to the Twins. Why come to the Twins when we might not be good until 2015 when he could go to a team that will be good next year? Unless of course we make some moves in the offseason and some of our prospects are ready earlier than expected.

On mlbtraderumors.com they are saying it is unlikely right now Willingham will be traded. I hope this changes between now and next season. I would like to see his spot/money given to a player or pitcher who can help us beyond next year, which Willingham most likely can't.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 10:15 AM
A wise man (or several) once said "follow the money".

Just to be clear, are you guys giving the team another excuse for not signing FAs, they just won't come here?

I never said it was realistic given how the Twins operate, but I'm told over and over money is no object, and that Ryan will now start spending money.....if that is true, I'm offering my opinion on how to effectively do that, given teh FA choices next year. If they choose not to sign expensive guys, well, that's their choice. I'm suggesting what I would do.

diehardtwinsfan
08-30-2013, 10:21 AM
I would love to have Ellsbury, but I'm doubtful he will come to the Twins. Why come to the Twins when we might not be good until 2015 when he could go to a team that will be good next year? Unless of course we make some moves in the offseason and some of our prospects are ready earlier than expected.

On mlbtraderumors.com they are saying it is unlikely right now Willingham will be traded. I hope this changes between now and next season. I would like to see his spot/money given to a player or pitcher who can help us beyond next year, which Willingham most likely can't.

I cannot see why we'd want Ellsbury. If you want FA on a long term contract, go get a guy that fits a position of need, not one at a position where the farm is relatively strong.

Brock Beauchamp
08-30-2013, 10:24 AM
I cannot see why we'd want Ellsbury. If you want FA on a long term contract, go get a guy that fits a position of need, not one at a position where the farm is relatively strong.

Yeah... I don't get why the Twins should be pursuing outfielders. They have a handful of them that project to be quality MLB players.

Go find pitching. Go find a shortstop. Go find a first baseman. Those are positions the Twins need filled going forward (though it could be argued that they don't need a first baseman and that Plouffe/Parmelee could field a nice platoon).

ScottyB
08-30-2013, 10:29 AM
Why would Ellsbury sign here?

Going from a powerhouse that spends freely to a doormat that does not?

Makes no sense to me to even think it is in the realm of possibility.

This. Plus he's a Boris client.


Yeah... I don't get why the Twins should be pursuing outfielders. They have a handful of them that project to be quality MLB players.

Go find pitching. Go find a shortstop. Go find a first baseman. Those are positions the Twins need filled going forward (though it could be argued that they don't need a first baseman and that Plouffe/Parmelee could field a nice platoon).

And this

Tibs
08-30-2013, 10:36 AM
Ellsbury would instantly make this team better, and there would definitely be room for him on the roster. What other outfielders do we have that could help us next year beyond Willingham, Arcia, and Hicks? Buxton could possibly be up next year. Even with Buxton, we could have Hicks, Ellsbury, and Buxton in the outfield with Arcia at DH.

The Twins need pitching more than anything right now, but it's not like signing Ellsbury would be a terrible thing.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 10:39 AM
Yeah... I don't get why the Twins should be pursuing outfielders. They have a handful of them that project to be quality MLB players.

Go find pitching. Go find a shortstop. Go find a first baseman. Those are positions the Twins need filled going forward (though it could be argued that they don't need a first baseman and that Plouffe/Parmelee could field a nice platoon).


What pitching is available next year (and if you think it is unrealistic to sign a hitter long term, what makes you think they'll start doing that with pitchers)? And, I've also said get a 1B. Who, exactly, is playing CF, LF, RF next year that is better than Ellsbury? Who the following year? Who is the SS they can sign that is actually good? You can only sign guys that are available, as I've been reminded over and over.

Hicks can't hit, Willingham, Doumit and Arcia can't field, Thomas is bad all around.....

If not Ellsbury, who would you suggest they sign?

Brock Beauchamp
08-30-2013, 10:49 AM
What pitching is available next year (and if you think it is unrealistic to sign a hitter long term, what makes you think they'll start doing that with pitchers)? And, I've also said get a 1B. Who, exactly, is playing CF, LF, RF next year that is better than Ellsbury? Who the following year? Who is the SS they can sign that is actually good? You can only sign guys that are available, as I've been reminded over and over.

Hicks can't hit, Willingham, Doumit and Arcia can't field, Thomas is bad all around.....

If not Ellsbury, who would you suggest they sign?

I'd take a run at Johnson and Hughes, for sure. I think Phil Hughes is a very capable #3, maybe even a marginal #2 away from New York.

None of the Twins outfielders will be better than Ellsbury in 2014 but with Arcia, Hicks, and Buxton all requiring everyday ABs by the end of 2014 (possibly 2015 for Buxton but I think he'll be here sooner), the Twins are already cramped at the position and have other, more significant needs on the diamond.

Thrylos
08-30-2013, 10:51 AM
What pitching is available next year


for starters:

Matt Garza
Dan Haren
Phil Hughes
Ubaldo Jimenez
Josh Johnson
Jon Lester
Tim Lincecum
Ricky Nolasco
Edinson Volquez

Lester and Jimenez have options that they may decline.

Not a bad list, and there are secondary pitchers available either aging veterans like Hudson, Halladay et al, or mid range like Maholm.

TwinsThompson
08-30-2013, 11:03 AM
TR's strategy of staying competitive while rebuilding at the same time seems great in theory. But, depending on what year you would view as the start of the rebuild, you could say that his strategy has largely failed. It's one thing to run out mediocre veteran players if they keep you competitive, but we are on our way to losing 90+ games again this year. That's not being competitive. We may or may not be a worse product on the field by moving the veterans out of the way, but at least we will be seeing what we have with the younger guys. How will those players improve as MLB'ers if we are hesitant to give them consistent playing time. This whole strategy feels very non-committal to me, and I think it drags the rebuilding process out a bit longer.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 11:10 AM
Twins aren't signing Garza.....but some of those other names intrigue me. Most of them are coming off bad years, or injuries, will they really require 4-6 year deals that preclude signing other playrs of value?

we are just going to disagree on the "glut" of Twins' OFers....since Hicks can't hit (imo) and Arcia can't field, I think there is plenty of room for a good player out there.

Monkeypaws
08-30-2013, 11:11 AM
A wise man (or several) once said "follow the money".

Just to be clear, are you guys giving the team another excuse for not signing FAs, they just won't come here?


No sir!

You say it's only the money that matters, I beg to differ. He'll be filthy rich wherever he signs.

You make it sound like all the Twins have to do is want him, make him a big offer, and it's a done deal. I doubt it.

I believe free agents are usually looking for a combination of things: money of course; but also the chance to win. It also depends on the number of suitors, location, relationships, etc.

I just have a hard time imagining a guy hitting Free Agency for the first time, who is a pretty good player and will likely have lots of offers, who has no obvious ties to the area, who has played on a winning team his whole career, deciding to choose this Twins team, with 2 perhaps 3 90 loss seasons in a row and no prospect of immediate improvement as his dream destination.

The guy will be 30 in September - he doesn't have time to wait for Sano, Buxton and company.

Just being realistic.

The Twins need to return to relevance to attract this type of player.

zenser
08-30-2013, 11:21 AM
I am not as high on the Josh Johnson bandwagon as most are. When healthy he is good but he has only had 25 or more starts 3 times in his career. If he comes cheap enough, I am all for it but I wouldn't spend like crazy to get him.

I think Hughes would be a nice fit and a change of scenery might benefit him. I listened to his start on 8/15 and the yankee announcers were questioning if they would start him more this season because they said you can't run him out there just to lose each time. I think pitching in Target Field as opposed to Yankee Stadium would definately help his numbers.

Lincecum would be nice too but I think he will be a bit pricy.

For shortstops, IMO the only option that will be available that is worth anything that the Twins could actually sign is Stephen Drew. I am not sure I am sold on him. Maybe make due with Florimon next year and go after Jed Lawrie in 2015.

Shortstops
Clint Barmes (35)
Willie Bloomquist (36)
Jamey Carroll (40) - $2MM vesting option with a $250K buyout
Alexi Casilla (29)
Stephen Drew (31)
Yunel Escobar (31) - $5MM club option
Rafael Furcal (36)
Alex Gonzalez (36)
Cesar Izturis (34)
Derek Jeter (40) - $8MM+ player option with a $3MM buyout
John McDonald (39)
Jhonny Peralta (32)
Brendan Ryan (32)

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 11:22 AM
I never said it was that easy.....do people expect paragrahps in every post?

I do agree, it is possible, maybe likely, he does not want to come to MN. But Reggie White went to GB when they sucked. Greinke said he would go to wherever they paid him the most money. Heck, Greg Jennings just came to MN with Ponder at QB.

I think people over rate how much titles and rings mean, when we are talking about 10s of millions of dollars. Is there an effect? sure. But money comes first, imo, and that "o" is based on years of watching players hold out for a few more dollars, or sign with bad teams, or whatever. But, we don't really know, maybe for Jacoby, the ring is more important.

not sure it matters, I don't see Ryan doing it.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 11:30 AM
I am not as high on the Josh Johnson bandwagon as most are. When healthy he is good but he has only had 25 or more starts 3 times in his career. If he comes cheap enough, I am all for it but I wouldn't spend like crazy to get him.

I think Hughes would be a nice fit and a change of scenery might benefit him. I listened to his start on 8/15 and the yankee announcers were questioning if they would start him more this season because they said you can't run him out there just to lose each time. I think pitching in Target Field as opposed to Yankee Stadium would definately help his numbers.

Lincecum would be nice too but I think he will be a bit pricy.

For shortstops, IMO the only option that will be available that is worth anything that the Twins could actually sign is Stephen Drew. I am not sure I am sold on him. Maybe make due with Florimon next year and go after Jed Lawrie in 2015.

Shortstops
Clint Barmes (35)
Willie Bloomquist (36)
Jamey Carroll (40) - $2MM vesting option with a $250K buyout
Alexi Casilla (29)
Stephen Drew (31)
Yunel Escobar (31) - $5MM club option
Rafael Furcal (36)
Alex Gonzalez (36)
Cesar Izturis (34)
Derek Jeter (40) - $8MM+ player option with a $3MM buyout
John McDonald (39)
Jhonny Peralta (32)
Brendan Ryan (32)

That is exactly the type of player the Twins should be targeting right now! The only way you can sell high is if you buy low!!
The money should not be a factor. Who cares if you have to "overpay" for him? The Twins have about $30 to $40 million extra that is just going into ownerships poket right now.
What is the worst that can happen? He continues to be injured and money that was never going to be spent anyway gets "wasted"?
But if manages to stay healthy, and puts up good numbers in a big ballpark, you suddenly have a guy that can either anchor your rotation, or you can ship him to a contender for a really good package, the type of package that franchises are built upon.
To me, where the Twins currently are at with payroll, and with no pressure to win now, it should be a no brainer to take a chance on one or more of Johnson, Lincecum or Halladay.

Brandon
08-30-2013, 11:37 AM
Ellsbury is a pipe dream and redundant and expensive get over it. There is a cuban SS and a Japanese Ace Pitcher we need to be more focused on at least one if not both of them as they are young and will be here to help the team win big time in 2 years as our best prospects start to come up next year.

As far as willingham goes. none of our recent prospects save Arcia have shown enough to warrant trading Willingham or not resigning Morneau. Plouffe, Parmalee, Hicks have all been terrible and Doumit hasnt been great either. If we needed to squeeze a player to the bench it would be him and if others are hitting then yes we would trade one for even less value but that just hasnt been the case. Hopefully Hicks makes his way back up to being a productive OF next year with Arcia and eventually Buxton moving Willingham to DH and Doumit to the bench. Neither Plouffe or Parmalee have enough to unseat a declining Morneau as the everday 1b when Sano arrives next year. the only player to make a position battle interesting next year is Dozier and Rosario and as of right now Rosario is not going to win that one. If he goes to the OF and is able to push Arcia to 1b (because Hicks and Buxton are already there by allstar break) then Morneau or Willingham could be traded as the other could DH. Then it would make sense.

USAFChief
08-30-2013, 11:45 AM
I don't agree there are not better options next year.

Sign the Cuban 1B, sign Ellsbury, bring up Pinto, move Arcia/Mauer to 1B/DH (and RF and C), Herrmann as the utility RF/Dh/3rd catcher, lots and lots of moves are avialable.

Oh, and if they roll out Thomas, Plouffe, Morneau, Doumit, Floriman..as 55% of the lineup most days...you really think the offense is going to be "competitive"?

I guess I'll have to see some of that money spent before I think its a good idea to plan on it. I'm certainly on board with the fact the Twins can afford to spend lots of it. I'm less on board with thinking they will and dumping players in anticipation of it.

old nurse
08-30-2013, 11:53 AM
I never said it was that easy.....do people expect paragrahps in every post?

I do agree, it is possible, maybe likely, he does not want to come to MN. But Reggie White went to GB when they sucked. Greinke said he would go to wherever they paid him the most money. Heck, Greg Jennings just came to MN with Ponder at QB.

I think people over rate how much titles and rings mean, when we are talking about 10s of millions of dollars. Is there an effect? sure. But money comes first, imo, and that "o" is based on years of watching players hold out for a few more dollars, or sign with bad teams, or whatever. But, we don't really know, maybe for Jacoby, the ring is more important.

not sure it matters, I don't see Ryan doing it.

Greinke said why he signed with the Dodger was they offered the most money. He never stated he would go to the team that offered the most money. There is a big difference. The offers were either Texas or the Dodgers. That is why he picked the Dodgers over Texas. Context is a little bit important here. Football players have a far shorter window to make money in with usually nothing guaranteed. That makes for a far different decision making process. Multiple basketball players take less money to be on winning teams. Their window to make money is similar to baseball. They talk of winning rings and championships, not the money.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 12:09 PM
"It's obviously the No. 1 thing,'' Greinke said. “I could play for the worst team if they paid the most … .''

Y! SPORTS (http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/zack-greinke-could-play-worst-team-paid-most-163824712--mlb.html)

ashburyjohn
08-30-2013, 12:12 PM
By that logic Mauer needs to go too, right?

"We finished last with you. We can finish last without you."

5374

golfboy1
08-30-2013, 12:13 PM
I never said it was that easy.....do people expect paragrahps in every post?

I do agree, it is possible, maybe likely, he does not want to come to MN. But Reggie White went to GB when they sucked. Greinke said he would go to wherever they paid him the most money. Heck, Greg Jennings just came to MN with Ponder at QB.

I think people over rate how much titles and rings mean, when we are talking about 10s of millions of dollars. Is there an effect? sure. But money comes first, imo, and that "o" is based on years of watching players hold out for a few more dollars, or sign with bad teams, or whatever. But, we don't really know, maybe for Jacoby, the ring is more important.

not sure it matters, I don't see Ryan doing it.

I think we are wasting bandwith discussing Ellsbury coming to the Twins. It's not the Twins MO to sign a big time FA for a LOT of money for a LOT of years. The Twins would have to outbid & overpay by a significant amount to even get Ellsbury to consider coming here. Yes the Twins have money to spend but it would be better spent on pitching, maybe the Japanese pitcher or Hughes.

The football analogy doesn't really work.... plus GB didn't want Jennings back that seriously so he picked the Vikings since they have a reasonably good team & he knew he would play. IMHO

Money does matter but it's not the end all. These players are going to get a boatload of money regardless so there are other factors involved. IIRC, Puckett & Hrbek turned down significantly more money to stay with the Twins when they had the opportunity to move.

I hope you aren't giving up on Arcia being an OF for the Twins. He'd better to able to play the field for many years or the Twins are in trouble. There are endless amount of OF'ers who can't field better than him who play OF on a consistent basis

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 12:15 PM
Puckett signed the 3rd largest contract in baseball at the time.

stringer bell
08-30-2013, 12:44 PM
Willingham stays. There is your DH/LF for 2014. I have said it a couple times, but Willingham will be in a contract year, presumably healthy, and mostly hitting between Mauer and Arcia. I expect a good year from him, closer to 2012 than 2013. If the Twins don't contend next year (close to a lock), he could be a good trade chip at the trade deadline.

zenser
08-30-2013, 12:45 PM
That is exactly the type of player the Twins should be targeting right now! The only way you can sell high is if you buy low!!
The money should not be a factor. Who cares if you have to "overpay" for him? The Twins have about $30 to $40 million extra that is just going into ownerships poket right now.
What is the worst that can happen? He continues to be injured and money that was never going to be spent anyway gets "wasted"?
But if manages to stay healthy, and puts up good numbers in a big ballpark, you suddenly have a guy that can either anchor your rotation, or you can ship him to a contender for a really good package, the type of package that franchises are built upon.
To me, where the Twins currently are at with payroll, and with no pressure to win now, it should be a no brainer to take a chance on one or more of Johnson, Lincecum or Halladay.

All I was saying is that if Johnson is available at the Twins current retread cost, I would take him. I wouldn't give him what Lincecum or Hughes will require.

I would love if they pursued Lincecum. He has at shown he can stay healthy and throw 200+ innings. Halladay would be worth the risk. Up until his injury, he has shown that he can be consistant and you could run him out there for 30 starts.

What turns me off on Johnson is his health. If he doesn't start more than 20 games like he has 4 of the last 8 years, you are still stuck with the same problem of running guys like Pedro Hernandez, Cole Devries, Jason Marquis.... for 10+ starts. I don't know about the rest of you but I have seen enough of those guys over the last three years. I would prefer a quality starter. I know injuries are a part of the game and they happen and for some people, they just happen more often.

jay
08-30-2013, 12:53 PM
To me, where the Twins currently are at with payroll, and with no pressure to win now, it should be a no brainer to take a chance on one or more of Johnson, Lincecum or Halladay.

That's a great point. The Twins are in a great position to take on the risk of a guy with upside. If it doesn't work, oh well, we're no worse off in trying to bring the next 'nucleus' along.


Greinke said he would go to wherever they paid him the most money.

Even if this were 100% true, the Dodgers simply weren't going to be outbid. That's the reality of it.


You make it sound like all the Twins have to do is want him, make him a big offer, and it's a done deal. I doubt it.

I believe free agents are usually looking for a combination of things: money of course; but also the chance to win. It also depends on the number of suitors, location, relationships, etc.

I just have a hard time imagining a guy hitting Free Agency for the first time, who is a pretty good player and will likely have lots of offers, who has no obvious ties to the area, who has played on a winning team his whole career, deciding to choose this Twins team, with 2 perhaps 3 90 loss seasons in a row and no prospect of immediate improvement as his dream destination.

The guy will be 30 in September - he doesn't have time to wait for Sano, Buxton and company.

Just being realistic.

The Twins need to return to relevance to attract this type of player.

I think these points get completely ignored here far too often while we dream on the great FAs we could sign to spend all that money on. It's not hard to find plenty of examples to clearly show that terrible teams struggle to attract quality FA players.

jay
08-30-2013, 01:02 PM
Btw, it's official. Morse to Orioles. Twins pulled Willingham back off waivers. MLB.com has the guy that the Twins were supposedly targeting, E. Rodriguez, at #3 in the O's org (and #86 overall). BA had him at #5 and nowhere on the pre-season 100 or mid-season 50.

The guy the Mariners got for Morse, X. Avery, is at #10 (preseason #7) on mlb.com and was #7 on BA's list.

FRIDAY, 12:33pm: The Twins and Orioles could not come to an agreement on a trade, and Willingham has been pulled back off waivers, according to Dan Connolly of the Baltimore Sun (Twitter link (https://twitter.com/danconnollysun/status/373499048285986817)). Earlier reports indicated (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/08/os-working-on-morse-trade-unlikely-to-land-willingham.html) that the Twins asked for top prospect Eduardo Rodriguez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=rodrig006edu&utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com), causing Baltimore to back off.


12:48pm: The Orioles are sending outfield prospect Xavier Avery (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/averyxa01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com) to the Mariners, according to Peter Gammons of the MLB Network (on Twitter (https://twitter.com/pgammo/status/373502285785358336)).
12:35pm: The Orioles have acquired Mike Morse (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/morsemi01.shtml?utm_campaign=Linker&utm_source=direct&utm_medium=linker-www.typepad.com) from the Mariners, according to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports. Heyman adds that the Mariners will receive a prospect in exchange (Twitter (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/373499039448199168) links (https://twitter.com/JonHeymanCBS/status/373499687447171072)).

Dman
08-30-2013, 01:12 PM
A number 3 prospect for Willingham does seem high to me but then again I am no baseball genius. He is old and although probably solid the next three to four years he is what he is. The Orioles could flip Willingham next year and if he does well get a nice a return as well but I think they were right the price was too high IMO.

TheLeviathan
08-30-2013, 01:26 PM
Avery used to be pretty highly thought of if I remember right.

its becoming a bit too consistent that are demands are "too high" with our block players. I'm all for wanting quality, but there might be a happy medium we aren't reaching right now.

jay
08-30-2013, 01:39 PM
Avery used to be pretty highly thought of if I remember right.

Commonly ranked at #2 for the O's right behind Machado in 2011.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 01:41 PM
All I was saying is that if Johnson is available at the Twins current retread cost, I would take him. I wouldn't give him what Lincecum or Hughes will require.

I would love if they pursued Lincecum. He has at shown he can stay healthy and throw 200+ innings. Halladay would be worth the risk. Up until his injury, he has shown that he can be consistant and you could run him out there for 30 starts.

What turns me off on Johnson is his health. If he doesn't start more than 20 games like he has 4 of the last 8 years, you are still stuck with the same problem of running guys like Pedro Hernandez, Cole Devries, Jason Marquis.... for 10+ starts. I don't know about the rest of you but I have seen enough of those guys over the last three years. I would prefer a quality starter. I know injuries are a part of the game and they happen and for some people, they just happen more often.

But again, when we have all this money that is not being spent anyways, why does the price on Johnson matter?
Either target him or don't. But if you decide his upside is worth a gamble, the price shouldn't matter, given our payroll situation.
The only argument to this is the "stick to your guns" argument, but to that I have a saying of my own, "your pride will be your downfall".

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 01:44 PM
Asking for a team's #3 prospect for a guy that has been bad and hurt, and is old, seems a bit steep. We don't know that's what they asked for, but if so, I too would say no if I was them.

TheLeviathan
08-30-2013, 01:46 PM
Commonly ranked at #2 for the O's right behind Machado in 2011.

Thanks, that's wht I thought. Pretty good get.

waiver claims aren't typically going to land hot prospects (especially with a player floundering that was claimed). Instead, targeting guys whose luster wore off might be good value and more realistic to ask for. At the end of the day, asking too much gets you nothing.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 01:50 PM
Asking for a team's #3 prospect for a guy that has been bad and hurt, and is old, seems a bit steep. We don't know that's what they asked for, but if so, I too would say no if I was them.

I agree.
Having a high asking price is one thing, and given that Willingham has another season under contract to improve his value, I actually agree with that.
But, making your demands so absurdly high that they are just wasting everyone's time is another.
Supposedly, the asking price was not only Rodriguez, but "several" other pitching prospects in addition. If those reports are true, then I just have to ask, why even waste everyone's time?
Even if Willingham were having an identical season to 2012, this would still be a laughable asking price.
Even at his best, Willingham is just not the type of player that you trade those types of packages for, he's pretty much a one dimensional player, and even at it's best that one dimension is not elite, it's just good.
This makes me think that even if Willingham turns it around in 2014, we still won't get anything for him, because Ryan's asking price will be even higher!

Alex
08-30-2013, 01:50 PM
I am not of the notion that Morneau is easily replaceable. I believe he is a much safer choice for next year than Parmelee or Colabello.

However, both of those guys have raked in AAA. Could one of them be for real against MLB pitching? Maybe.



This is a big part of the philosophy that people are frustrated with: the safe choice. At this point, Morneau is a "safe" choice because he's a known quality. There's really not upside there.


I don't think he's going to cost all that much to retain (he's a league average (or less) first baseman). And he's really not blocking one, at least for the next couple of years. (The notion that he's taking at bats (or would be) from Arcia or Sano is pretty out of touch).

It's true that the names given don't match, but we have already gone around about the blocking issue. However, the outside perspective is valuable, imo, for other reasons and the crux of the blog is about how the Twins fans view Morneau, which was further confirmed by comments like these. I'm a Twins fan, but calling him a "league average" first baseman is out of touch as well. If he doesn't cost much to retain and no one wants to take him for essentially free, there is a reason.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 01:55 PM
Yeah, I don't get the desire to have the "safe" choice at 1B?
If we were a playoff caliber team, then I could see it, because you might not want to take a risk that could cost you a win or two, which could then cost you a playoff spot.
But as a rebuilding team that will likely lose 90+ games again next year, why would you want the "safe" option, with no upside?
It seems to me that is the optimal time to pass up the safe choice for the more "risky" choice, since you have nothing to lose if that risk turns into a massive bust. But if the risk pays off, you've possibly found a future piece of the organization that you might otherwise not have found.
One of the reasons we have let some good players get away recently (Gomez, Hardy, etc.) is because we were in the playoff hunt those years, and couldn't afford to take as many risks. That is also one of (many) the reasons we are in the boat we are in now.
Now is the time to take those risks.

ThePuck
08-30-2013, 02:21 PM
I agree.
Having a high asking price is one thing, and given that Willingham has another season under contract to improve his value, I actually agree with that.
But, making your demands so absurdly high that they are just wasting everyone's time is another.
Supposedly, the asking price was not only Rodriguez, but "several" other pitching prospects in addition. If those reports are true, then I just have to ask, why even waste everyone's time?
Even if Willingham were having an identical season to 2012, this would still be a laughable asking price.
Even at his best, Willingham is just not the type of player that you trade those types of packages for, he's pretty much a one dimensional player, and even at it's best that one dimension is not elite, it's just good.
This makes me think that even if Willingham turns it around in 2014, we still won't get anything for him, because Ryan's asking price will be even higher!

Very nice post.

nicksaviking
08-30-2013, 02:30 PM
I suppose we will never know what was countered. Clearly we are all in agreement with the Orioles that Rodriguez was too much to ask for. Did Ryan say no to Mike Wright though? Devin Jones? Tim Berry? If talks dragged on until the end one would have to think the teams couldn't have been too far apart. Frankly, I would be pretty disappointed if the Twins passed on moving Willingham for a reasonable pitching prospect.

zenser
08-30-2013, 02:47 PM
But again, when we have all this money that is not being spent anyways, why does the price on Johnson matter?

It matters because I think most of us hope the FO signs more than Josh Johnson.

Dman
08-30-2013, 02:47 PM
Clearly the Orioles thought if they could get Willingham for a decent price he could help them down the stretch and if he had a better year next year flip him for a decent return.

Did TR just not like anything they had to offer? or was he afraid if he didn't get a good enough return the Orioles might make him look bad next year by getting something better than he managed to in trade. I am guessing it is easier on the ego to only trade players in the last year of there contract if you do not need to dump payroll as another GM could show you up IMHO. He had to make sure he was getting a return that they could not get if Willingham had a good year next year.

rickyriolo
08-30-2013, 02:49 PM
I would have taken Xavier Avery for Willingham. We need an extra outfielder for the upcoming series in texas and beyond. Willingham is not part of the future can what you can while you can

howieramone
08-30-2013, 02:57 PM
Yeah, I don't get the desire to have the "safe" choice at 1B?
If we were a playoff caliber team, then I could see it, because you might not want to take a risk that could cost you a win or two, which could then cost you a playoff spot.
But as a rebuilding team that will likely lose 90+ games again next year, why would you want the "safe" option, with no upside?
It seems to me that is the optimal time to pass up the safe choice for the more "risky" choice, since you have nothing to lose if that risk turns into a massive bust. But if the risk pays off, you've possibly found a future piece of the organization that you might otherwise not have found.
One of the reasons we have let some good players get away recently (Gomez, Hardy, etc.) is because we were in the playoff hunt those years, and couldn't afford to take as many risks. That is also one of (many) the reasons we are in the boat we are in now.
Now is the time to take those risks.

Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

AROG
08-30-2013, 03:02 PM
I would have taken Xavier Avery for Willingham. We need an extra outfielder for the upcoming series in texas and beyond. Willingham is not part of the future can what you can while you can

I wouldn't make that trade at all. We have more then enough guys that can hit for no power and no average. That was a sluff piece that Seattle got instead of just sending Morse away for nothing.

jokin
08-30-2013, 03:13 PM
Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

I would hazard a guess that this identical argument was made by many right after the 2010 season about 2 certain other Twins players (we all know who), except they were already established veterans.

Even if both Sano and Buxton play more than 50% of the Twins' schedule next year (highly unlikely itself), without the additional unlikely happenstances of:

1) significant personnel upgrades (via trade or FA? both seem inoperative options and/or highly unlikely),
2)other impact rookie/2nd year player breathroughs, and,
3)strong bounceback years from this years' slumping veterans,

another miserable W-L record in 2014 seems pretty inevitable.

ThePuck
08-30-2013, 03:19 PM
I would hazard a guess that this identical argument was made by many right after the 2010 season about 2 certain other Twins players (we all know who), except they were already established veterans.

Are Sano and Buxton going to be on the mound? :-)

Besides the highlighted part of Mr. Brooks statement specifically said NEXT year. Sano and Buxton won't even be with the team a full season...

Alex
08-30-2013, 03:24 PM
Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

Do you think they'll both be up and playing at elite levels next year? Right now, I personally tend to think they won't be, not to start at the very least and maybe not until September, if at all.

I don't have much hope for next season and think a fourth straight 90 loss season is possible. It's hard to imagine it being worse or this bad again, but I said the same thing about last season as well. Key players are older for the most part and there are no prospects who I feel confident will succeed and be a major improvement over what we have now except Arcia (though I'd like to see if Parmelee can be). And, as Puck mentions, they still need pitching.

I realize some people have said Ryan will be more aggressive in FA this year, but I'll believe it when I see it.

jokin
08-30-2013, 03:30 PM
I'm actually relieved that Willingham wasn't moved at what is likely the low ebb value of his current contract. To Terry Ryan's credit, he didn't scuttle Josh, as Bill Smith did Thome, for $20,000. There's still potential value left in Willingham to the Twins, just as there was for Thome.

ThePuck
08-30-2013, 03:46 PM
Do you think they'll both be up and playing at elite levels next year? Right now, I personally tend to think they won't be, not to start at the very least and maybe not until September, if at all.

I don't have much hope for next season and think a fourth straight 90 loss season is possible. It's hard to imagine it being worse or this bad again, but I said the same thing about last season as well. Key players are older for the most part and there are no prospects who I feel confident will succeed and be a major improvement over what we have now except Arcia (though I'd like to see if Parmelee can be). And, as Puck mentions, they still need pitching.

I realize some people have said Ryan will be more aggressive in FA this year, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Yup, still need pitching
-Twins rotation still has the worst ERA in baseball. Still over 5.00.
-Twins rotation still has the worst BAA. Still over .300
-Twins rotation still has the least amount of IP.
-Twins rotation still has the worst WHIP.
-Twins rotation still has, by far, the least amount of strikeouts. 121 less than the 29th ranked team in Ks. Putting that into perspective. The difference between the 29th ranked team in rotation Ks and the the 16th ranked team in rotation Ks is 121.

I wonder how bad the rotation would have been if Ryan didn't put so much effort into improving it this past offseason...

AROG
08-30-2013, 03:48 PM
I'm actually relieved that Willingham wasn't moved at what is likely the low ebb value of his current contract. To Terry Ryan's credit, he didn't scuttle Josh, as Bill Smith did Thome, for $20,000. There's still potential value left in Willingham to the Twins, just as there was for Thome.

Absolutely, and if we have players that are truly deserving of the opportunity and pushing for AB's next year, hopefully he will have a fast start and we can trade him at high value.

maxisagod
08-30-2013, 03:55 PM
I'm actually relieved that Willingham wasn't moved at what is likely the low ebb value of his current contract. To Terry Ryan's credit, he didn't scuttle Josh, as Bill Smith did Thome, for $20,000. There's still potential value left in Willingham to the Twins, just as there was for Thome.

This.

Willngham isn't completely wasted money.
If I were to guess, Terry was asked to eat a lot of Willingham's contact. So the question becomes, what pitching prospect is worth let say 4.5 million dollars? The name Terry and his scouts came up with was Eduardo Rodriguez.

ashburyjohn
08-30-2013, 04:11 PM
If the O's are trying to get both Willingham and Morneau then would Dylan Bundy be on the table?

Would you believe, Xavier Avery (say that five times fast) plus a PTBNL. :)

Monkeypaws
08-30-2013, 04:16 PM
Yup, still need pitching
-Twins rotation still has the worst ERA in baseball. Still over 5.00.
-Twins rotation still has the worst BAA. Still over .300
-Twins rotation still has the least amount of IP.
-Twins rotation still has the worst WHIP.
-Twins rotation still has, by far, the least amount of strikeouts. 121 less than the 29th ranked team in Ks. Putting that into perspective. The difference between the 29th ranked team in rotation Ks and the the 16th ranked team in rotation Ks is 121.

I wonder how bad the rotation would have been if Ryan didn't put so much effort into improving it this past offseason...

Thank god for Correia - how bad would it look without him? ;)

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 04:18 PM
It matters because I think most of us hope the FO signs more than Josh Johnson.

"Hope" being the keyword.
I truly expect that payroll will once again be slashed next year, or best case scenario it remains right around what it is this year.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 04:25 PM
Very unlikely a team with Buxton and Sano on it ever lose 90+ games.

Sano and Buxton in their prime years, I agree.
Sano likely won't be up until June, and I think it's a longshot that Buxton is up before September.

Even if they go on to become superstars, there is no guarantee that they are elite players right out of the gate.
Even Mike Trout struggled in his first taste of the big leagues.

Even in a best case scenario, and they don't struggle, 3.5 months of Sano instead of Plouffe is worth maybe 2 wins, and 1 month of Buxton instead of Thomas/Ramirez/Mastro is worth less than 1 win.

ThePuck
08-30-2013, 04:29 PM
"Hope" being the keyword.
I truly expect that payroll will once again be slashed next year, or best case scenario it remains right around what it is this year.

With all the money coming off the books, they would have to spend a lot to get it back up to where it is now.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 04:34 PM
Absolutely, and if we have players that are truly deserving of the opportunity and pushing for AB's next year, hopefully he will have a fast start and we can trade him at high value.

I'm not sure Ryan will be capable of pulling the trigger.
His asking price, IMO, was already too high even if Willingham was having another year similar to 2012 (which, obviously he's not), so logic would suggest it will go even higher if he has a bounce back season next year.
Plus, he's already shown (with Morneau), that he won't simply take the best he can get because a guy is in his walk year. He's shown that he'll "stand his ground" if his asking price is not met, and let a guy walk for nothing.
So, to me there is no guarantee that we get anything for Willingham even if he does get off to a great start next year.
There is a reason we got Willingham for 3/21 as a FA. Even at his best, he's a nice player, but not really anything special, because he is so one dimensional. And it's not like that one dimension is 50 HR power, it's 25 to 30 HR power, which is nice to have, but not elite from a pure DH, which on a team that places any value on defense would be the only place he belongs.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 04:35 PM
With all the money coming off the books, they would have to spend a lot to get it back up to where it is now.

But even then it would leave plenty of money to "overpay" for a lotto ticket like Johnson.

ThePuck
08-30-2013, 04:39 PM
But even then it would leave plenty of money to "overpay" for a lotto ticket like Johnson.

It would for sure...but I doubt our GM goes past what he thinks any FA is worth, in years or dollars, regardless of available funds. Doesn't matter whether or not his opinion of what the player is worth is anywhere near accurate or not. He can just keep saying, MAN I can't believe X player got THAT...I can't GIVE our money away...

SgtSchmidt11
08-30-2013, 04:45 PM
I think that the Twins asked an appropriate cost for this trade. I also wouldn't have taken it if I were the Orioles. Just because two teams talk, doesn't mean a trade has to happen. If the Twins were supposed to eat Hammer's salary, they easily should have gotten a better player then Avery since 1. Hammer is better then Morse. 2. Hammer has another contract. 3. 7 mil plus the remainder of this year is more then what the Phillies just signed Gonzalez to a contract for. But the O's didn't want to mortgage the future for the present (wisely), so they would not pay up.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 04:49 PM
Can I get a link please to the sources that are reporting that the Twins were asked to eat any or all of Willingham's salary?
I keep seeing that thrown around in here, and I'm trying to figure out why that is the working assumption.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 04:52 PM
I think that the Twins asked an appropriate cost for this trade. I also wouldn't have taken it if I were the Orioles. Just because two teams talk, doesn't mean a trade has to happen. If the Twins were supposed to eat Hammer's salary, they easily should have gotten a better player then Avery since 1. Hammer is better then Morse. 2. Hammer has another contract. 3. 7 mil plus the remainder of this year is more then what the Phillies just signed Gonzalez to a contract for. But the O's didn't want to mortgage the future for the present (wisely), so they would not pay up.

I disagree about that being an appropriate asking price.
That is the price that you would ask for an elite player, not a nice, but limited player like Willingham.

SgtSchmidt11
08-30-2013, 05:00 PM
I disagree about that being an appropriate asking price.
That is the price that you would ask for an elite player, not a nice, but limited player like Willingham.If this was Willingham next season, then yes this would be an appropriate asking price. But there is an extra year of control too, and that has to be worth something. Perhaps not a jump from their #10 to their #3 but certainly an increase in price. I just don't think the O's were willing to part with anything of real value (I don't even know if Avery would place top 20 in the Twins system, he seems to have fallen apart, I mean he hasn't posted a full season OPS over .700 since 2010.) But the Twins shouldn't deal away a player with an extra year of control just to deal him (Morneau on the other hand...)

jorgenswest
08-30-2013, 05:05 PM
Picking up salary didn't matter. By claiming him, the Orioles were willing to take on entire salary.

They had the following goals.

-Find a right handed bat.
-Block the A's from getting an OF to plug in for Reddick
-Give up as little in prospects as possible

I think the Orioles did a great job of meeting those goals. They blocked the A's by claiming both Morse and Willingham. Morse was cheap in terms of prospects because he was a loan. There was no motivation to deal for Willingham with Morse. They had achieved their Willingham goal by blocking him for the A's. They were probably gambling that the Twins would not stick me with the contract.

The Orioles played this perfectly. The only option the Twins had was to give up Willingham. I think the Orioles were pleased that the Twins recalled him off waivers.

Danchat
08-30-2013, 05:18 PM
MLB Trade Rumors reports the Twins asking price was too high. We wanted to claim Eduardo Rodriguez, one of their best pitching prospects. Not surprisingly, TR was too stubborn to make a move. Well, it's not that bad, Willingham could be better than a bag of balls next year.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 05:29 PM
If this was Willingham next season, then yes this would be an appropriate asking price. But there is an extra year of control too, and that has to be worth something. Perhaps not a jump from their #10 to their #3 but certainly an increase in price. I just don't think the O's were willing to part with anything of real value (I don't even know if Avery would place top 20 in the Twins system, he seems to have fallen apart, I mean he hasn't posted a full season OPS over .700 since 2010.) But the Twins shouldn't deal away a player with an extra year of control just to deal him (Morneau on the other hand...)

I completely agree with the bolded, and have said as much.
I just don't think "good" GM's waste everyone's time by putting a guy on waivers, then demanding an absurd asking price for him, a price so high he knows darn well it will never be accepted.
Is that how you gain respect among other GM's? I dunno, perhaps this is common place, if it is then obviously I'm blowing this way out of proportion.
But, I run a business, and I know that I would be at least annoyed, if not angered, if people played these kind of games with me.

jokin
08-30-2013, 05:35 PM
Picking up salary didn't matter. By claiming him, the Orioles were willing to take on entire salary.

They had the following goals.

-Find a right handed bat.
-Block the A's from getting an OF to plug in for Reddick
-Give up as little in prospects as possible

I think the Orioles did a great job of meeting those goals. They blocked the A's by claiming both Morse and Willingham. Morse was cheap in terms of prospects because he was a loan. There was no motivation to deal for Willingham with Morse. They had achieved their Willingham goal by blocking him for the A's. They were probably gambling that the Twins would not stick me with the contract.

The Orioles played this perfectly. The only option the Twins had was to give up Willingham. I think the Orioles were pleased that the Twins recalled him off waivers.

Which brings up the question, couldn't the Twins have blocked that Orioles move by claiming Morse? (A guy who they should be considering in the off-season anyway?

John Bonnes
08-30-2013, 05:41 PM
Which brings up the question, couldn't the Twins have blocked that Orioles move by claiming Morse? (A guy who they should be considering in the off-season anyway?

That's a very interesting point. I don't think I've ever seen a case where a non-contending team blocked a contending team from a waiver pickup so they could keep their guy front and center. But it would work - provided the Mariners didn't then block Willingham.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 05:46 PM
Which brings up the question, couldn't the Twins have blocked that Orioles move by claiming Morse? (A guy who they should be considering in the off-season anyway?

Not trying to take cheap shots, but I really don't think the Twins FO is capable of thinking that far outside the box. Sorry, but I just don't think they even considered that.

Not to mention, that judging by their asking price, they didn't have any serious intentions of trading him to begin with.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 05:47 PM
That's a very interesting point. I don't think I've ever seen a case where a non-contending team blocked a contending team from a waiver pickup so they could keep their guy front and center. But it would work - provided the Mariners didn't then block Willingham.

The Mariners wouldn't know that we had claimed Morse until it was too late, I believe.

jokin
08-30-2013, 05:49 PM
That's a very interesting point. I don't think I've ever seen a case where a non-contending team blocked a contending team from a waiver pickup so they could keep their guy front and center. But it would work - provided the Mariners didn't then block Willingham.

You can even play out the logic in making the claim: pick up Morse from the M's and move Morneau, you fill the hole short-term at 1B, you still save money, net-net, and maybe breakeven or better in the prospects you either move or acquire in Willingham and Morneau trades. Plus, Morse is due for a bounceback in 2014, and the Twins get a headstart in the chances at signing him and keeping him off the FA market before it even opens.

jokin
08-30-2013, 05:51 PM
Not trying to take cheap shots, but I really don't think the Twins FO is capable of thinking that far outside the box. Sorry, but I just don't think they even considered that.

Not to mention, that judging by their asking price, they didn't have any serious intentions of trading him to begin with.

Which again, begs the question, why did they bother in the first place?

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 05:56 PM
You can even play out the logic in making the claim: pick up Morse from the M's and move Morneau, you fill the hole short-term at 1B, you still save money, net-net, and maybe breakeven or better in the prospects you either move or acquire in Willingham and Morneau trades. Plus, Morse is due for a bounceback in 2014, and the Twins get a headstart in the chances at signing him and keeping him off the FA market before it even opens.

This is actually a really good idea, one that I would have given a ton of credit to Ryan if he had pulled off.
Hats off to you sir.

Monkeypaws
08-30-2013, 06:37 PM
I don't fault Ryan for asking for the player he wanted. Hard to say what the Oriole's counter-offer was, unless i missed that. 2013 Willingham has been a shadow of last year's version, but I am hopeful a combination of good health and the incentive of upcoming free-agency may lead to a nice rebound next year, increasing his value.

Rosterman
08-30-2013, 06:44 PM
The stinker would be if the Twins just gave the Orioles Willingham. Then the Orioles would be on the hook for Willingham's salary. Sure, the Twins could block by claiming Morse and making the Mariners give him to us, and then throwing him on last minute waivers for whomever, if that would happen.

The Orioles blacked a bunch of guys from going forward. They basically don't have to offer anything except salary relief and call a team's bluff. I almost think the Twins should've,m but then Ramirez went on the DL. Sure, we have Thomas and Mastro (and Hicks), but looks like another month for Willingham to redeem himself.

The Twins sure like the smell of their...crap!

jorgenswest
08-30-2013, 08:09 PM
The Twins should not have blocked Morse. That would alienate the Mariners and any other team interested. In the future, we don't need the Mariners or other non contenders blocking all players of value the Twins placed on waivers. It would probably upset Morse also. He doesn't want to move away from his family to play for a team going nowhere.

John is correct. Noncontending teams don't do this.

PseudoSABR
08-30-2013, 08:50 PM
Twins wanted a legitimate prospect for Willingham (reportedly Eduardo Rodriguez) and I don't blame them. The fact that the Twins didn't trade Willingham for Avery should demonstrate that their sole goal is NOT to shed salary.

kab21
08-31-2013, 05:12 AM
Not to mention that Avery kind of sucks. I'm glad that the Twins were asking for a legit prospect for Willy. I find it funny how many on this board felt that Willingham shouldn't even be on the block before the season began and now many think he should be given away for nothing. Or that some think the Twins don't spend enough money and that they should send Willy packing for basically nothing in return.

willingham is the kind of veteran gamble the team should be taking while the prospects are coming up. He's cheapish with one year left on his contract and I really don't want guys like Arcia and Sano pressed into the 3/4 spots in the order like Hicks led off this year.

diehardtwinsfan
08-31-2013, 10:58 AM
Twins wanted a legitimate prospect for Willingham (reportedly Eduardo Rodriguez) and I don't blame them. The fact that the Twins didn't trade Willingham for Avery should demonstrate that their sole goal is to shed salary.

I think you meant "goal is NOT to shed salary" :)

If salary relief is what this is about, they could have giving Willingham away. I do think it would be wise to ask for a decent spec, and Xavier Avery was not that. Willingham has one more year left, and his value is low right now. It could easily be much higher next year and I cannot imagine it will be much lower.

SgtSchmidt11
08-31-2013, 06:48 PM
This is actually a really good idea, one that I would have given a ton of credit to Ryan if he had pulled off.
Hats off to you sir.
And doing this wouldn't give you a certain reputation as a GM? This would make me far more mad then hearing a high price for a player, even if I thought it was absurd, if I was another teams GM. Sometimes teams will pay a ridiculously high price, but this move is just against the essence of waivers (AA style)

Mr. Brooks
09-02-2013, 09:24 AM
And doing this wouldn't give you a certain reputation as a GM? This would make me far more mad then hearing a high price for a player, even if I thought it was absurd, if I was another teams GM. Sometimes teams will pay a ridiculously high price, but this move is just against the essence of waivers (AA style)

Why would it give you a bad rep? In his idea (that I quoted), it was just for gamesmanship, it would be to replace Morneau at 1B.