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View Full Version : Gardenhire deserves plenty of blame.



Mr. Brooks
08-22-2013, 05:37 PM
For the most part I have been pretty neutral on Gardy.

On the one hand, I have thought that while he hasn't had much talent, good coaches get fired all the time in sports. Sometimes it is just time to move on from the coach/manager when you have 3 consecutive terrible seasons, regardless of whether or not it is truly "his fault".
Also in this vein, I have thought that if he still had a year remaining, then bring him back, but since his contract is up, I don't see how you justify renewing the contract of a manager based on these results.

But, on the other hand, as I said above, he has no talent. What is he supposed to do with this rag tag bunch of non MLB talent? Nobody could win with these guys.
To quote Mike Singletary: "Cannot play with them. Cannot win with them. Cannot coach with them. Can't do it. I want winners. I want people that want to win."
(One of the all time great press conferences in sports history, if you live in a cave and haven't seen it.)

However, it has come to me that there is something that IS in Gardy's hands, and to me it is a fire-able offense.
I was reminded of that offense last night, when Theilbar failed to backup home plate.
You simply cannot call yourself an MLB team and allow a runner to score from 2nd base on a strikeout.
That has nothing to do with talent. You don't get to use the "Gardy has no talent" excuse when things like that happen. The least talented player in the league can be taught to back up his base. It takes no raw talent to do it.

This is not an isolated occurrence. Far from it. I have seen more fundamental mistakes in the last 2 years than I have ever seen in my life. Mistakes that have nothing to do with talent.
It does not take talent to back up bases, to hit cutoff men, to execute a run down properly, to execute a bunt, etc.

To me, that is where Gardy is and should be held accountable. These things fall directly on coaching.
What are they working on in ST, if not these things? What are they working on in pregame workouts, if not these things?
When these things are a continuing occurrence, over multiple years, at some point it has to fall on the coaching staff's lap.

When you have nothing but #5/AAAA starting pitchers, and a laughable lineup, you are not going to win many games, regardless of who your manager is, I understand that.
But at some point you have to look at all of these simple, fundamental mistakes that are made far too often by this team, and come to the conclusion that either Gardy is not putting enough emphasis on teaching them, or that the players are simply not listening.
Whichever of the two it is, I don't see how you continue with it.

Thrylos
08-22-2013, 06:08 PM
The biggest reason this team needs a managerial change (and needed since 2005ish) is that the players are not mad when they are losing and are unemotional robots and if they are not, they get banished by the manager and/or get traded (Lohse, Garza, Gomez, et al. ).

If you do not hate losing you will not win. Period. And this is something that the manager should install in a team. From Cuddyer's comments after the loss to game 163 at the White Sox "Oh well, we will get them next season" to Correia's comments six days ago after the Twins lost "I am very pleased with my start, I did everything right", there are plenty of examples of this...

The Twins need a winning attitude. Losers should have no place in this team. And if you are ok with losing, you are loser (by definition.)

Marta Shearing
08-22-2013, 06:48 PM
The biggest reason this team needs a managerial change (and needed since 2005ish) is that the players are not mad when they are losing and are unemotional robots and if they are not, they get banished by the manager and/or get traded (Lohse, Garza, Gomez, et al. ).

If you do not hate losing you will not win. Period. And this is something that the manager should install in a team. From Cuddyer's comments after the loss to game 163 at the White Sox "Oh well, we will get them next season" to Correia's comments six days ago after the Twins lost "I am very pleased with my start, I did everything right", there are plenty of examples of this...

The Twins need a winning attitude. Losers should have no place in this team. And if you are ok with losing, you are loser (by definition.)

Great take. Outstanding.

Oldgoat_MN
08-22-2013, 06:53 PM
Some may feel you are being a little hard on Gardy, but Tom Kelly's teams made VERY few of those types of mistakes.

That is why for so many years announcers for other teams talked about how 'the Twins do the little things right.'

MichiganTwins
08-22-2013, 06:57 PM
Didn't the Twins actually get them the next year though?

Mr. Brooks
08-22-2013, 06:57 PM
Some may feel you are being a little hard on Gardy, but Tom Kelly's teams made VERY few of those types of mistakes.

That is why for so many years announcers for other teams talked about how 'the Twins do the little things right.'

Yep. I don't think I'm being hard on Gardy at all. I'm just pointing out what I see when I watch them.
I've been in Gardy's corner, which has not been easy these last couple years. But I can't lie to myself and tell me these things don't exist. They do, there is no escaping it. The manager has to take blame when fundamental mistakes are constantly made.

I have changed my stance on Gardy, I think it's time for him to move on.

Seth Stohs
08-22-2013, 08:05 PM
I'm not going to lead the Keep Gardy bandwagon. I could get a list of 5-8 reasons to keep him and 5-8 reasons to not bring him back.

But, to make any decisions based on a players or a coaches/managers media quotes isn't fair at all. Just because Michael Cuddyer said something after a tough, frustrating loss, doesn't mean anything. He's a great person, and he is very classy. He's good with the media. He's not going to rip people. He's not going to go negative. He's going to speak well of his team. That doesn't mean that inside he wasn't hurting and upset about losing. So that argument does nothing for me either way on the keep him or let him go direction.

Kwak
08-22-2013, 08:10 PM
I too think "it's time". Example: last night Corriera pitches into the 7th [1-0], gets the first two out, yields two baserunners, and remains in the game to pitch to the next batter (Hunter). OK, this isn't unusual in MLB, even today. But, KC isn't some stud and the Twins have 8 relief pitchers! Corriera's job is safe for next year--he doesn't need to "prove himself". But,still, I'm OK with KC pitching to Hunter (only a little bit OK).

Today's game: Albers leading 6-2, 6th inning. First two batters--out; then next two reach base. Gardy replaces Albers! Why? Albers needs to be tested (and PASS!) in order to justify a spot in the 2014 rotation! Even if he yields a HR--then Twins would still have the lead. But no, this time in comes a relief pitcher.

The point? Where is the logic, consistency, and purpose to Gardenhire's management? I see very little except pitch count (Albers was still under 100 pitches btw). Seat-of-the pants, whim, and hunch is all I see. If you want another point--Herrmann's sacrifice bunt in the fist game vs. Detroit. Porcello was reeling into the ropes ( Detroit does have a high-scoring line-up) and Herrmann needs to demonstrate that he will be a contributor next year--he should be trying to hit, not sacrifice.

diehardtwinsfan
08-22-2013, 08:11 PM
I've been an anti-Gardy guy for years, though I've learned over the years to appreciate some of the things he brings to the table. I do think it's time for him to move on, mainly because some of his biggest weaknesses are dealing with rookies and he's going to have a lot of them over the next 3 years.

On the flip side, for all the flack, the man will have no problems finding a job this winter if he wants one.

clutterheart
08-22-2013, 09:08 PM
I like Gardy very much. He seems like a good human, I like his caustic attitude and as he gets older he has developed the "bitter old man syndrome" and his quotes crack me up.

I would not like it if he was let go. Even though he I think he is a lousy in-game manager, too differential toward to the players and he seems very passive about the whole thing. - too much of a player's coach.

But I just think it would be horribly unfair for him to go but Ryan stays. Ryan deserves to go.

But, I really caution against "change for change sake" type of moves. As a life long T-Wolves fan, this has burned us in the past. That is how we lost KG, Flip, and brought in disasters like Kahn. I don't trust the Pohlads to bring in the right talent in the FO to get us out of the mess. They seem to be a pack of second generation gadflies relying on their Father's team to manager their inheritance.

So....Stay the course! All other options are worse.

drjim
08-22-2013, 10:14 PM
I too think "it's time". Example: last night Corriera pitches into the 7th [1-0], gets the first two out, yields two baserunners, and remains in the game to pitch to the next batter (Hunter). OK, this isn't unusual in MLB, even today. But, KC isn't some stud and the Twins have 8 relief pitchers! Corriera's job is safe for next year--he doesn't need to "prove himself". But,still, I'm OK with KC pitching to Hunter (only a little bit OK).

Today's game: Albers leading 6-2, 6th inning. First two batters--out; then next two reach base. Gardy replaces Albers! Why? Albers needs to be tested (and PASS!) in order to justify a spot in the 2014 rotation! Even if he yields a HR--then Twins would still have the lead. But no, this time in comes a relief pitcher.

The point? Where is the logic, consistency, and purpose to Gardenhire's management? I see very little except pitch count (Albers was still under 100 pitches btw). Seat-of-the pants, whim, and hunch is all I see. If you want another point--Herrmann's sacrifice bunt in the fist game vs. Detroit. Porcello was reeling into the ropes ( Detroit does have a high-scoring line-up) and Herrmann needs to demonstrate that he will be a contributor next year--he should be trying to hit, not sacrifice.

So you take two examples where Gardy, faced with the same situation, used two separate courses of action, and both failed, and that is proof that he is a terrible manager? Couldn't you just as easily say he adjusted to his mistake from the night before? IMO this is a terrible way to criticize a manager. It would be a much bigger indictment if he stubbornly did the same thing every night.

I am not saying this as a Gardy defender. I personally want him to be replaced after the season, but there have to be more effective methods to be critical.

drjim
08-22-2013, 10:15 PM
The biggest reason this team needs a managerial change (and needed since 2005ish) is that the players are not mad when they are losing and are unemotional robots and if they are not, they get banished by the manager and/or get traded (Lohse, Garza, Gomez, et al. ).

If you do not hate losing you will not win. Period. And this is something that the manager should install in a team. From Cuddyer's comments after the loss to game 163 at the White Sox "Oh well, we will get them next season" to Correia's comments six days ago after the Twins lost "I am very pleased with my start, I did everything right", there are plenty of examples of this...

The Twins need a winning attitude. Losers should have no place in this team. And if you are ok with losing, you are loser (by definition.)

I don't know how you possibly know how the players feel or what they are thinking. I would hope you are using more evidence than pouring through post game cliches.

Thegrin
08-22-2013, 10:59 PM
For all you stats guys out there... Where are the stats to analyze the number of bonehead plays that a team makes ? Should the manager of a team that makes more mental errors be considered a bad manager ? I watch most Twins games on TV and the smell test/eyeball test is that most teams make more gaffs than the Twins.
Yes, I remember the Twins gaffs. Nishioka haunts my nightmares. Plouffe, Delmon, Willingham, Doumit do too. But even Delmon usually hit the cutoff man and threw to the right base. They may not be good fielders but they make the "smart" play more often than not.
It is human nature to dwell on others faults. Use stats to say whether the Twins are deficient in "smarts". Then blame Gardy if we are.

Mr. Brooks
08-23-2013, 12:00 AM
I don't know what games you are watching then, because these mistakes have been constant over the last 2 years.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-23-2013, 07:00 AM
I think you have to give Gardy one or two more years, it's not his fault they haven't had one freaking legit starting pitcher the past 3 years

E. Andrew
08-23-2013, 08:19 AM
For all you stats guys out there... Where are the stats to analyze the number of bonehead plays that a team makes ? Should the manager of a team that makes more mental errors be considered a bad manager ?

A) Unfortunately, there aren't stats, at least specifically for mental errors. Regardless of where fieldF/X data takes us, defensive play will need human data collectors for the foreseeable future. These efforts are always expanding, but even stat-heads find the work tedious. I imagine most organizations work to catalog some of these stats through their advance scout work, but even they may not quantify it, and fewer scouts watch Clete Thomas than Oswaldo Arcia. And they don't compare notes. For public consumption, you'd have to depend on the motivation of a very dedicated fan.

B) This is even more difficult. I think it would depend on the organization, and it would trend toward managers being held most accountable in small-market organizations. There are a variety of ways to produce/save runs, and its cheaper to find that value in defense. Certain clubs will accept defensive errors as the price for a potent bat. 'Poorer' clubs cannot... Despite our payroll, our 'executive' strategy still suggests a defensive, small-market approach. So I would say, YES, here. We have awful, awful batters, below replacement level. So players that make consistent defensive errors here should be removed. Though that changes in a rebuilding situation, the front office has some control too, mistakes do happen, etc.

mike wants wins
08-23-2013, 08:28 AM
Gardy seems great off the field (other than the rip the young, or college educated, guys part), but on the field he drives me bonkers. He's stuck in the pre-data world.

And, to the point above, he doesn't seem to have any strategy for next year in terms of how he plays guys.

E. Andrew
08-23-2013, 08:34 AM
the players are not mad when they are losing

This is a tremendous point. It is INCREDIBLY difficult to accurately criticize/critique on-field management in baseball, because most of the manager's responsibility takes place behind closed doors, and the parts that we can see usually vary in only the smallest amounts from the current 'book'.

That said, motivation tends to be obvious to almost anyone that has played a sport at any level. We're often aware of it, even if we can't describe how. The Twins motivation has been frustrating at times. Baseball should be fun, and players shouldn't be machines. But guys like Thomas, Plouffe, Ramirez, and Arcia laugh off their near-mistakes with unfitting regularity. Doumit makes some really crap plays in right field, but he beats himself up over it. We've seen Deduno lose it in the dugout, and we saw Correia check off an impressive list of four letter words on Wednesday. Those are the players you want around.

nicksaviking
08-23-2013, 08:37 AM
Theilbar not covering home isn't a fireable offense. He's been up what, three days? If anyone should get fired for him not covering home, it's probably Gene Glynn who I guess we could say failed in this instruction over the other 95% of Theilbar's season. But like I said, it's not a fireable offense and Glynn is going nowhere.

There are plenty of reasons to get rid of Gardy but rookies making rookie mistakes and playing poorly isn't one of them.

ThePuck
08-23-2013, 08:45 AM
Well first we have to remember that this is a job to the players and the players know it's a long season. I would hope that, as a professional, they wouldn't run the extreme gamut of emotions after every win and every loss.

Just because a professional doesn't throw a temper tantrum when the team loses, doesn't mean he doesn't care that they lost.

Boom Boom
08-23-2013, 09:13 AM
I agree with the OP that the lack of fundamentals the last three years has been alarming. That's not a matter of talent.

Another point I'd raise is that, despite what we hear of Gardy "just not having the talent" to win, that isn't what the Twins were saying at the beginning of the year. Ryan said he wanted to see improvement, and it's just not been there. Letting Gardy off the hook for lack of talent is moving the goalposts forward.

jctwins
08-23-2013, 09:59 AM
What we are all waiting for Gardy to do is take a group of guys back out onto the field after a game and teach a class on missed fundamentals and give them a real learning experience.

Tom Kellly kept his job when this team was horrible. We didn't mind because he did the above on a few occasions, right in front of the TV cameras.

mike wants wins
08-23-2013, 10:51 AM
This is the dumbest thread on TwinsDaily. I supposed you can now conclude, after the Twins took 2-of-3 from the Tigers, that Gardenhire is manager of the year and Leyland the fool. Good job Gardy having Doumit go yard on Verlander. Managers pull the strings, but players still have to play. If I have better players, I usually win. Twins have no pitching and a feeble offense. That's why they're losing, and to blame Gardenhire is pure folly. Enjoy the day!

if you think this is the dumbest thread ever, you haven't been here long.....

And, the thread is not about why they are losing, but about "is gardy making the players that come up better or not" "is gardy putting the crappy players in the best position to succeed or not" "is gardy preparing players for the future or not". This thread is not about why they are losing.

denarded
08-23-2013, 11:18 AM
I think you have to give Gardy one or two more years, it's not his fault they haven't had one freaking legit starting pitcher the past 3 years

Area man nodding head

Hosken Bombo Disco
08-23-2013, 11:45 AM
I was reminded of that offense last night, when Theilbar failed to backup home plate.
You simply cannot call yourself an MLB team and allow a runner to score from 2nd base on a strikeout.


The lack of field presence we see in Twins players (and coaches) nowadays is disturbing.

I agree because there is nothing preventing Gardenhire himself from bounding to the top step of the dugout and shouting COVER HOME COVER HOME which would probably have gotten the Thielbar's attention. Gardenhire's too often just a spectator anymore, leaning forward against that fence block, his arms hung over the rail, unengaged, he had his day and deep down I wonder if he wants a break from this and I'd say the Twins organization and fan base could definitely use a break.

HBD

Mr. Brooks
08-23-2013, 11:57 AM
Theilbar not covering home isn't a fireable offense. He's been up what, three days? If anyone should get fired for him not covering home, it's probably Gene Glynn who I guess we could say failed in this instruction over the other 95% of Theilbar's season. But like I said, it's not a fireable offense and Glynn is going nowhere.

There are plenty of reasons to get rid of Gardy but rookies making rookie mistakes and playing poorly isn't one of them.

Heh? Thielbar has been here since May 20th.
Obviously one single occurrence is not a fireable offense. These fundamental mistakes have been constant over the last 2 years. This is just one of many examples.

Mr. Brooks
08-23-2013, 12:06 PM
This is the dumbest thread on TwinsDaily. I supposed you can now conclude, after the Twins took 2-of-3 from the Tigers, that Gardenhire is manager of the year and Leyland the fool. Good job Gardy having Doumit go yard on Verlander. Managers pull the strings, but players still have to play. If I have better players, I usually win. Twins have no pitching and a feeble offense. That's why they're losing, and to blame Gardenhire is pure folly. Enjoy the day!

From Merriam Webster:

Coaching, is a teaching, training or development process via which an individual is supported while achieving a specific personal or professional result or goal.


By definition it would seem that part of a coaches job is to teach fundamentals, and to make sure they are being executed properly.
Is there anything that the coaching staff is responsible for? If not, why do they make millions of dollars? Why not just hire someone at minimum wage?

Badsmerf
08-23-2013, 12:06 PM
This is the dumbest thread on TwinsDaily. I supposed you can now conclude, after the Twins took 2-of-3 from the Tigers, that Gardenhire is manager of the year and Leyland the fool. Good job Gardy having Doumit go yard on Verlander. Managers pull the strings, but players still have to play. If I have better players, I usually win. Twins have no pitching and a feeble offense. That's why they're losing, and to blame Gardenhire is pure folly. Enjoy the day!
Well thought out, detailed, and persuasive post. I have no reason to doubt you or the fact that you have read the entire thread.

At what point do you let a manager go and get a new voice? To me, it was after getting beat down in the playoffs (probably after the third time.. not even allowing it to go as far as it did). As it is, they kept Gardy around and he has backers and haters. I don't hate that Gardy is the manager, I think he has positives and negatives along with every person. I do think his time with the Twins needs to end. I don't think players play hard for him anymore and that his voice has become stale.

Obviously, I'm not in the clubhouse so it is impossible for me to really know anything for certainty. The main discussion is that many feel they want a new voice/direction.

Tibs
08-23-2013, 12:28 PM
I think Thielbar not covering home is a bad example. That's not Gardenhire's fault. Pitchers should be doing that since middle school.

LaBombo
08-23-2013, 12:29 PM
The Twins are still on pace to lose about 90 games. And they look it. Yes, the rotation is bad, but that doesn't explain lapses in fundamentals and competitiveness that we've seen.

Gardenhire is popular, likeable, and has a winning record. But if he returns after another 90-loss season, it would be a historic act of faith on the part of the Twins.

In the past 30 years, only one non-expansion manager has ever continued to manage a team after three consecutive 90-loss seasons. His name was Tom Kelly, and he has two more World Series rings than Gardenhire has playoff series wins in the past decade.

It's not a given that Gardy should be replaced. But it's clear that retaining him after losing 90 would be an admission by the franchise that they have fielded three straight rosters so bad that the manager gets a history-making pass.

Or they could lose only 87 and we could all pretend the whole thing never happened.

SurroundedByTigers
08-23-2013, 12:43 PM
I am not opposed to a managerial change if it makes the Twins better. That said, I don't think a new manager makes this current group of Twins better. We probably have at least one more season in Gardy before the Twins make a change. My call for the new mgr, a year out, when the next batch of good young prospects arrives, is probably somebody like Mientkieicwcykowskiovich, or however you spell his name. Anybody who brawls with the opposing mgr gets my vote, and certainly gets the attention of players. He can keep Sano, Rosario, et. al, in check. Have good day.

Mr. Brooks
08-23-2013, 12:52 PM
I am not opposed to a managerial change if it makes the Twins better. That said, I don't think a new manager makes this current group of Twins better. We probably have at least one more season in Gardy before the Twins make a change. My call for the new mgr, a year out, when the next batch of good young prospects arrives, is probably somebody like Mientkieicwcykowskiovich, or however you spell his name. Anybody who brawls with the opposing mgr gets my vote, and certainly gets the attention of players. He can keep Sano, Rosario, et. al, in check. Have good day.

Gardy's contract is up. He's not going to sign a 1 year deal. If you bring back Gardy, you do so committing to him for the next 3 years.
I even said in my original post that if he still had a year remaining on his deal, I think you let him finish it out.

mike wants wins
08-23-2013, 01:00 PM
Area man nodding head

So he should also get no credit when they have good teams, right? If that is the case, why not hire Dave to be the manager for a lot less money.

howeda7
08-26-2013, 12:49 AM
I've come around to the opinion that a change for the sake of a change wouldn't be a bad thing. But I'm also not sold on Terry Ryan being here much longer. Does it make sense to let Gardy go and Terry hire the next manager. Then what if 2014 is another train wreck? Does Terry 'retire' again? Seems very possible. Then is the new GM stuck with a manger he didn't hire. Bottom line: Terry and Gardy should stay or go together.