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Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 09:48 AM
Does anyone else find hypocrisy between how they plan to handle this as opposed to how they handled Sano?

I'm not sure how you look a prospect in the eyes and tell them you are going to hold them accountable for their actions, meanwhile letting the manager do whatever he wants.

The manager fighting another manager on the field in the middle of a game seems like something out of a bad baseball comedy. The fact it happened in real life should be embarrassing to the organization. This is 1000x more serious and egregious of an incident than pimping a HR, IMO.

I can't believe that Ryan actually said the following without realizing the irony in his own statement:


“Doug is very emotional, I can tell you that,” Ryan said. “He’s very protective. His philosophy is to do things right, even at the expense of a player having to sit for awhile. Players need to learn how to play the game correctly. Doug can teach.”

Monkeypaws
08-19-2013, 10:10 AM
I think managers are held to a different standard - many great managers like Martin and Weaver had plenty of fire. I don't mind this too much, especially in the low minors.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 10:21 AM
I think managers are held to a different standard - many great managers like Martin and Weaver had plenty of fire. I don't mind this too much, especially in the low minors.

Nothing wrong with having fire. You have to be a professional though. Getting into a fight on the field with the opposing manager is childish at best. IMO, it's even worse in the low minors, where you are supposed to be teaching young prospects how to behave like a pro.

You really think Miguel Sano takes them seriously now about handling his emotions in a respectful manner, after seeing this kind of behavior from a manager go unpunished?

"Hey kid, do as we say, not as we do". Good luck with that one Twins.

big dog
08-19-2013, 10:26 AM
Mint was protecting his players. How is that anything like showing up another team?

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 10:30 AM
Mint was protecting his players. How is that anything like showing up another team?

I guess I wasn't aware that fighting the opposing manager on the field is the preferred method of protecting your players.
What was he protecting them from? Did one of them have a gun? A knife?

Anyways, it seems that I'm clearly in the minority here, so I guess I stand corrected.

Don't Feed the Greed Guy
08-19-2013, 10:37 AM
Mientkiewicz's behavior will likely result in a suspension by the Florida State League. This is the body that will play judge, jury and prosecution in this case, not Terry Ryan. Pimping after a home run is not going to result in a suspension by the Eastern League. One suspension is an external matter, subject to league policies. The other is an internal matter, handled from within the Twins organization. That doesn't mean that Ryan didn't take Mientkiewicz behind the woodshed for a good verbal lashing. Mientkiewicz deserves it. We just won't read about it.

old nurse
08-19-2013, 10:41 AM
So was Dougie Baseball just supposed to be sitting in the dugout? The video posted did not show the instigating of the brawl or how he ended up on the bottom. The response to someone physically going after you should be what? Your conclusions are based on what?

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 10:48 AM
So was Dougie Baseball just supposed to be sitting in the dugout? The video posted did not show the instigating of the brawl or how he ended up on the bottom. The response to someone physically going after you should be what? Your conclusions are based on what?

If the reports are true, it was Dougie who charged the opposing manager.
You are correct that I was not there, and the beginning of the brawl is not captured on video, so if the reports at this time are inaccurate, and Dougie was just defending himself, then obviously that is a completely different situation.

The incident may have been payback for a play Friday in which Gamache bowled over Miracle catcher Jairo Rodriguez at the plate, Zimmerman said, and when Kremblas objected from the top step of the dugout, Mientkiewicz ran toward him, and they began fighting near home plate.

Mientkiewicz fights with opposing manager | Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/220080011.html)

Like I said though, I'm clearly in the minority, so I guess it's not as big of a deal as I thought it was.
I guess to me the thought of opposing managers fighting on the field mid game has too much of a WWE feel to it, and it's not something you see big league managers doing. I don't like it, but that is just me I guess.

drjim
08-19-2013, 11:24 AM
I think it can be a cause for concern, especially if it is a pattern of behavior. But taking that and thinking it will have any impact of the likes of Sano is a massive leap. The way you phrase it makes it seem you have little respect for Sano and are desperate to paint the organization in a bad light - I highly doubt that is your intention.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 11:47 AM
I think it can be a cause for concern, especially if it is a pattern of behavior. But taking that and thinking it will have any impact of the likes of Sano is a massive leap. The way you phrase it makes it seem you have little respect for Sano and are desperate to paint the organization in a bad light - I highly doubt that is your intention.

No, thats not it at all. It just seems they are talking out of one side of their mouth to Sano: "Be a professional, don't let your emotions get out of control", and the other to Dougie: "Hey, you couldn't keep your cool so you charged the opposing manager, and started a fight with him on the field, that is totally professional behavior, well done!"

I guess I don't understand how you can expect a young guy like Sano to take you seriously in that case.

Siehbiscuit
08-19-2013, 11:59 AM
Personally, I see this as a father protecting his kids. The game before he felt that Friday's tactics towards Rodriguez, his catcher were out of line. He voiced his opinion and no one knows what was said, but it sounds like it pushed Mientkiewicz over the line. I'm sure Mientkiewicz wishes he hadn't boiled over, but at the same time as a father, protecting my family is top priority. The young men he teaches, takes crazy long bus rides with and spends countless hours are more than just players to him. It would be awfully difficult to not be emotionally attached and that's where the wanting to protect them comes in. Did he get in a fight? Yes. Was it unprofessional? Probably. Do his players no that Dougie Baseball has got their backs 100% of the time? Absolutely!

He'll serve a league mandated suspension. But for the team and organization it was well worth it.

mike wants wins
08-19-2013, 12:32 PM
So, violence when someone is yelling is a good idea? Really, that's what people are arguing here? BS. Violence is not the answer to someone yelling at you or your family or your team.

yes, it looks like hypocrosy to me. Same thing when the Vikings let Cook stay on the team (becasue he's good, let be honest), and cut bad players for lesser offenses.

No, it was not well worth it. It was immature. It was unproffessional. It was not how people should behave in the world, not to make the world a better place.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2013, 12:43 PM
I actually like this, a lot. This team has played the "Mr. Nice guy" role for too long, nothing wrong at all about having fire, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the Sano showing up the other team incident. The equivalent would have been if Sano would have rushed the mound to protect a team-mate or whatever.

Dougie prob didn't handle it the best way, but you better believe his players will rally behind him for this. Also, nobody knows what was said, and obviously there is no real excuse for violence, but lets be honest, there are a few phrases that would get 99% of men to go after someone if they were said, who knows what was said? People didn't get all uspet that Melo went after Garnett after what he said....so let's hold a bit of judgement until we find out all the details.

To compare this and the Sano issue is overall pretty ridiculous. By all accounts Mint has been a good manager, what do you all want, for him to be fired over this or something?

mike wants wins
08-19-2013, 12:56 PM
No, we wanted Sano not to be punished for doing what Ortiz, and dozens of other MLB players do. If the team is going to be all holier than thou, then it should be all holier than thou with everyone, not just three latin players this year (which seem to be the only ones anyone has really talked about, oddly).

Halsey Hall
08-19-2013, 01:08 PM
Does anyone else find hypocrisy between how they plan to handle this as opposed to how they handled Sano?

No, I don't. I don't mind at all.

big dog
08-19-2013, 01:22 PM
I guess I wasn't aware that fighting the opposing manager on the field is the preferred method of protecting your players.
What was he protecting them from? Did one of them have a gun? A knife?



He had a player barrelled over the night before, his pitcher nicks the guy who did it. That happens in the majors all the time. Running after the other manager was an idiot move, no question, but he's a first-time manager and he made a mistake in an effort to fight for his guys. Totally different than Sano.

I'm not saying Dougie was right- far from it, and I won't complain about the suspension- but I'm sure he did it because he thought he was protecting his guys. I won't complain about that.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 03:45 PM
I actually like this, a lot. This team has played the "Mr. Nice guy" role for too long, nothing wrong at all about having fire, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the Sano showing up the other team incident. The equivalent would have been if Sano would have rushed the mound to protect a team-mate or whatever.

Dougie prob didn't handle it the best way, but you better believe his players will rally behind him for this. Also, nobody knows what was said, and obviously there is no real excuse for violence, but lets be honest, there are a few phrases that would get 99% of men to go after someone if they were said, who knows what was said? People didn't get all uspet that Melo went after Garnett after what he said....so let's hold a bit of judgement until we find out all the details.

To compare this and the Sano issue is overall pretty ridiculous. By all accounts Mint has been a good manager, what do you all want, for him to be fired over this or something?

That's fine. Do what you have to do, but then be accountable for it.
I'm guessing that if you started a physical altercation with someone at your workplace, you would have to face some consequences from your boss, regardless of whether the guy deserved it or not.

Hell, your boss might even tell you that he understands and respects WHY you did what you did, but that you are still going to have to take a few days off.

I liken it to confronting a man at a bar who makes an inappropriate comment at your wife/girlfriend.
Was it justified? It might have been, depending on what was said.
Did you do the right thing? Probably. Sometimes you weigh the need to defend your family versus the consequences, and decide that the consequences are worth it.
Are you still going to jail if you instigate a fight? You probably are. The cop might even say something like, "I would have done the same thing buddy, but you know I still have to take you in."

And hell no, of course I don't want Dougie fired. I love having him in the organization and have said so in here multiple times. This doesn't change that. I think he needs a few games off to show there is no double standard though.

Pius Jefferson
08-19-2013, 03:58 PM
How Dougie B handled this was incorrect and juvenille. The why he felt it necessary is similar to Sano one upping the team that had thrown at him earlier in the game.

nicksaviking
08-19-2013, 04:03 PM
I tend to agree with the OP. Both moves were bush league. What if it wasn't the manager but a young prospect that attacked a member of the other team on the dugout steps to "protect" his teammates? Both moves were basically vigilantism; an effort to teach the other team a lesson.

Just because they are both bush moves, doesn't mean the front office is being hypocritical though. We don't know if the Twins plan any repercussions. Yet. That being said, Ryan wasn't shy about publicly dressing down Sano. That doesn't look to be in the cards with Mientkiewicz though ripping the manager to the media is an easy way to get his players to disregard anything he teaches them.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2013, 04:12 PM
That's fine. Do what you have to do, but then be accountable for it.
I'm guessing that if you started a physical altercation with someone at your workplace, you would have to face some consequences from your boss, regardless of whether the guy deserved it or not.

Hell, your boss might even tell you that he understands and respects WHY you did what you did, but that you are still going to have to take a few days off.

I liken it to confronting a man at a bar who makes an inappropriate comment at your wife/girlfriend.
Was it justified? It might have been, depending on what was said.
Did you do the right thing? Probably. Sometimes you weigh the need to defend your family versus the consequences, and decide that the consequences are worth it.
Are you still going to jail if you instigate a fight? You probably are. The cop might even say something like, "I would have done the same thing buddy, but you know I still have to take you in."

And hell no, of course I don't want Dougie fired. I love having him in the organization and have said so in here multiple times. This doesn't change that. I think he needs a few games off to show there is no double standard though.
He is going to get a few days off since he will be suspended. Thus the punishment fits the crime, no more will need to be done. Also the Twins probably aren't trying to make this a huge story (just like they were with Sano, however everyone decided to take with it and turn it into a huge story)

Again the Sano thing got blown out of proportion because the media (and websites) decided to make it into a huge deal since there were literally zero other sports going on. I would bet if Sano got benched during Sept while the Vikings were going on, you wouldn't see more than a blurb in the paper about it, or more than 5 minutes dedicated to it on the radio.

Also brawls in baseball are AWESOME! Showing up the other team is not awesome.

Pedro Throwing fat zimmer down=Awesome
Nolan Ryan punching Ventura= Awesome
Slow home run trots= Not awesome

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2013, 04:16 PM
I tend to agree with the OP. Both moves were bush league. What if it wasn't the manager but a young prospect that attacked a member of the other team on the dugout steps to "protect" his teammates? Both moves were basically vigilantism; an effort to teach the other team a lesson.

Just because they are both bush moves, doesn't mean the front office is being hypocritical though. We don't know if the Twins plan any repercussions. Yet. That being said, Ryan wasn't shy about publicly dressing down Sano. That doesn't look to be in the cards with Mientkiewicz though ripping the manager to the media is an easy way to get his players to disregard anything he teaches them.
He didn't publically dress down Sano, and he was pretty critical FYI of Mientkiewicz when it happened, basically saying "it was wrong, he knows it was wrong etc" the whole Sano "issue" came up when Sano basically didn't admit what he was doing was wrong, which irked the manager. Being apologetic goes a long ways.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 04:21 PM
I tend to agree with the OP. Both moves were bush league. What if it wasn't the manager but a young prospect that attacked a member of the other team on the dugout steps to "protect" his teammates? Both moves were basically vigilantism; an effort to teach the other team a lesson.

Just because they are both bush moves, doesn't mean the front office is being hypocritical though. We don't know if the Twins plan any repercussions. Yet. That being said, Ryan wasn't shy about publicly dressing down Sano. That doesn't look to be in the cards with Mientkiewicz though ripping the manager to the media is an easy way to get his players to disregard anything he teaches them.

First off, we DO know that the Twins are not planning any repercussions. Terry Ryan stated that there would not be any further punishment from the team.

But, I guess I can buy the bolded.
Perhaps the team would have suspended him if the league was not going to, but they feel that the league suspension is enough, so they are satisfied with that.
Personally, I still think it's a bit hypocritical. I still would have liked to see them sit him down for even one game, just to send a message that they expect their employees to behave like professionals.

Willihammer
08-19-2013, 04:31 PM
Minor League direct Brad Steil did have this to say:


“Doug knows that’s not the example we want him to set for our players. He is a very competitive guy, and he let his emotions get the better of him. He was very apologetic for what happened, both to me and to the team. He realizes that’s not how we want him to represent the Minnesota Twins.”

I'm a little sketchy on the details but I probably would have lost my lid if I were in Dougie's position. Day 1, his catcher gets bowled over at the plate (some more details here would be nice - was he blocking the plate?)

Day two a Miracle pitcher "brushes back" an opposition player in clear retaliation.

Ideally, the pitcher hits the Bradenton batter square in the ribs and that settles the issue, but the pitch missed and when the Bradenton manager stepped out of the dugout to yell something at Dougie, then Dougie decided to take the retaliation into his own hands I guess.

I think I am fine with all of this, especially if the initial Maurader takeout of the Miracle catcher was unnecessary or vicious.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 04:44 PM
Minor League direct Brad Steil did have this to say:



I'm a little sketchy on the details but I probably would have lost my lid if I were in Dougie's position. Day 1, his catcher gets bowled over at the plate (some more details here would be nice - was he blocking the plate?)

Day two a Miracle pitcher "brushes back" an opposition player in clear retaliation.

Ideally, the pitcher hits the Bradenton batter square in the ribs and that settles the issue, but the pitch missed and when the Bradenton manager stepped out of the dugout to yell something at Dougie, then Dougie decided to take the retaliation into his own hands I guess.

I think I am fine with all of this, especially if the initial Maurader takeout of the Miracle catcher was unnecessary or vicious.

It's nice to see Brad Steil call him out on it.
Personally I think it warrants sitting him down for a game, but short of that I think this is a good statement by Steil. This is really all I wanted to see, the Twins making it known that he behaved in an unprofessional manner and that behavior is not acceptable.

ThePuck
08-19-2013, 04:50 PM
It's nice to see Brad Steil call him out on it.
Personally I think it warrants sitting him down for a game, but short of that I think this is a good statement by Steil. This is really all I wanted to see, the Twins making it known that he behaved in an unprofessional manner and that behavior is not acceptable.

Hmmm. I don't think they had much of a choice even if they had no issue with it...which they very likely did.

jimbo92107
08-19-2013, 04:52 PM
No, thats not it at all. It just seems they are talking out of one side of their mouth to Sano: "Be a professional, don't let your emotions get out of control", and the other to Dougie: "Hey, you couldn't keep your cool so you charged the opposing manager, and started a fight with him on the field, that is totally professional behavior, well done!"

I guess I don't understand how you can expect a young guy like Sano to take you seriously in that case.

Really? You see no difference between pimping a home run versus defending your players from being targeted for damage?

Nobody's arguing that Doug Mientkiewicz handled the situation with diplomatic aplomb, but when you think your boys are being pushed around, you've got to do something, or they'll get pushed around by everybody. You've got to watch out for players and teams that try to play dominance games with you, like the Yankees do to the Twins. Otherwise, they'll take your lunch money. Like the Yankees do to the Twins.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 04:56 PM
Really? You see no difference between pimping a home run versus defending your players from being targeted for damage?

Nobody's arguing that Doug Mientkiewicz handled the situation with diplomatic aplomb, but when you think your boys are being pushed around, you've got to do something, or they'll get pushed around by everybody. You've got to watch out for players and teams that try to play dominance games with you, like the Yankees do to the Twins. Otherwise, they'll take your lunch money. Like the Yankees do to the Twins.

And the ONLY way to stick up for your players is with physical violence huh?
It's funny then that you don't see any other manager, at any level doing this. I guess Dougie is just the only manager at any level of baseball that sticks up for his players.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-19-2013, 05:00 PM
And the ONLY way to stick up for your players is with physical violence huh?
It's funny then that you don't see any other manager, at any level doing this. I guess Dougie is just the only manager at any level of baseball that sticks up for his players.

I'm pretty sure Joe Girardi was about 3 inches away from punching that ump in the face last night if you watch the replay.

Also, MLB managers are disproportionately old or fat, or often times both. Old fat dudes don't make for good fighters as they will most likely break a hip.

big dog
08-19-2013, 05:05 PM
And the ONLY way to stick up for your players is with physical violence huh?
It's funny then that you don't see any other manager, at any level doing this. I guess Dougie is just the only manager at any level of baseball that sticks up for his players.

That's not accurate at all. It's rare, but he's far from the only manager to do this. LaRussa and someone got into it a couple years ago. Anyone remember Don Zimmer rushing the mound to try and get a piece of Pedro Martinez? This doesn't happen often, but it certainly happens.

Look, there are two issues here. Was he out of control and inappropriate? Of course. Was he trying to act in the best interest of his players? I think so. Don't say he was out of control, and therefore it's the same as Sano. Sano's act was less idiotic by far, but the motivation was not team-oriented.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 05:16 PM
That's not accurate at all. It's rare, but he's far from the only manager to do this. LaRussa and someone got into it a couple years ago. Anyone remember Don Zimmer rushing the mound to try and get a piece of Pedro Martinez? This doesn't happen often, but it certainly happens.

Look, there are two issues here. Was he out of control and inappropriate? Of course. Was he trying to act in the best interest of his players? I think so. Don't say he was out of control, and therefore it's the same as Sano. Sano's act was less idiotic by far, but the motivation was not team-oriented.

Fair enough.
I can accept that it doesnt merit a team punishment, I guess.
I've cooled on it since someone in the organization called him out on it (Steil).
Terry Ryan's comments practically defended him, they werent sharp enough, IMO. But I'm glad Steil's were.

clutterheart
08-19-2013, 08:39 PM
Wait
What happened?
Fight on the field?
Where the hell have I been?
Running to google now

TheLeviathan
08-19-2013, 08:39 PM
To compare this and the Sano issue is overall pretty ridiculous. By all accounts Mint has been a good manager, what do you all want, for him to be fired over this or something?

The key to me on this is consistency. Mint is in a leadership role now, which means him doing some akin to Sano requires the team to act in a similar way. It shouldn't just be sufficient to have the league suspend him, there should be some sort of team discipline, otherwise it sends a very poor message.

Let's do away with the nonsense about protecting his players, nothing about this has anything to do with that and it's a crappy excuse even if it does. I, for the record, am on board with the team needing more fire so I'm not down on the action. But if you're going to punish Sano for poor sportsmanship, you better punish Mint for poor sportsmanship.

This organization has a long history of playing favorites, the only thing I want rid of more than the "nice guy next door" cookie cutter is the favoritism. Just be consistent.

Seth Stohs
08-19-2013, 08:57 PM
No, we wanted Sano not to be punished for doing what Ortiz, and dozens of other MLB players do. If the team is going to be all holier than thou, then it should be all holier than thou with everyone, not just three latin players this year (which seem to be the only ones anyone has really talked about, oddly).

But it's not just those three. In all the years I've watched this minor league system, it has happened (benchings for HR pimping, not running things out, etc.) dozens of times. It's not just 'three Latin players.' I'ts just that they're recognizable names. If Molitor wouldn't have said anything on the radio, no one would have known the full story. "Lesser known" players just don't garner the attention.

I think the difference is that Mientkiewicz will be suspended by the FSL for what happened, and absolutely should be.

Willihammer
08-19-2013, 10:09 PM
Mike Kvasnicka had to sub for Jairo Rodriguez after he got rolled over at home plate on the 16th. The next day, Jairo didn't get off the bench - Matt Koch caught in his stead. Evidently Jairo was a little bruised or sore from the previous day and thus Doug had to sit him and probably wasn't happy about it.

Rodriguez, who'll be 25 in 5 days, and is batting 255/270/273 for the year. Quite possibly could be looking at his last season of pro ball. And then for the Marauder coach to pipe up about a retaliation... all I will say is, its not hard to sympathize I think.

With Sano - He had a conflict with a teammate - Bobby Lanigan, a 26 year old who like Rodriguez, probably isn't long for the pro baseball world, and who had just endured one humiliation of being released by the Twins, and a 2nd for giving up a home run to his superstar 20 year old "rival." And then Sano rubs it in further by pimping it? Totally different, IMHO.

Mr. Brooks
08-19-2013, 10:29 PM
Mike Kvasnicka had to sub for Jairo Rodriguez after he got rolled over at home plate on the 16th. The next day, Jairo didn't get off the bench - Matt Koch caught in his stead. Evidently Jairo was a little bruised or sore from the previous day and thus Doug had to sit him and probably wasn't happy about it.

Rodriguez, who'll be 25 in 5 days, and is batting 255/270/273 for the year. Quite possibly could be looking at his last season of pro ball. And then for the Marauder coach to pipe up about a retaliation... all I will say is, its not hard to sympathize I think.

With Sano - He had a conflict with a teammate - Bobby Lanigan, a 26 year old who like Rodriguez, probably isn't long for the pro baseball world, and who had just endured one humiliation of being released by the Twins, and a 2nd for giving up a home run to his superstar 20 year old "rival." And then Sano rubs it in further by pimping it? Totally different, IMHO.

I've yet to hear anyone confirm or deny that it was a dirty play at the plate.
If he was blocking the plate, what is wrong with knocking him over? I thought that was the standard play.

Willihammer
08-19-2013, 10:35 PM
I've yet to hear anyone confirm or deny that it was a dirty play at the plate.
If he was blocking the plate, what is wrong with knocking him over? I thought that was the standard play.
I am giving Dougie and the Miracle the benefit of the doubt here - if it warranted a retaliation, it probably was a dirty slide. But I dont know for sure TBH

TheLeviathan
08-19-2013, 10:41 PM
And then for the Marauder coach to pipe up about a retaliation... all I will say is, its not hard to sympathize I think.

So it's ok to fight with someone because their team made an aggressive play to avoid being out?

Jesus I hate unwritten rules. I simply can't say it enough.

Ultima Ratio
08-19-2013, 10:53 PM
I love Dougie

Jdosen
08-20-2013, 01:16 AM
I might be in the minority, and even though I consider myself rather analytical in consuming baseball, I actually really like that Dougie was out there backing up his players. Not to compare the level of baseball I've played and continue to play and have coached to professionals in high-A, but there certainly is something to be said for letting your players know you have their backs. No I don't think it matters numbers-wise or statistically, but it does matter in the atmosphere of being a team.

drjim
08-20-2013, 07:11 AM
I love Dougie

I agree. The more I think about this the more I think it's awesome.

mike wants wins
08-20-2013, 08:09 AM
It boggles the mind that people think fighting is an appropriate response to this at all. Unreal. Do you fight at your work? Why is it ok to do so as a baseball manager? I just don't get it at all.

drjim
08-20-2013, 08:13 AM
It boggles the mind that people think fighting is an appropriate response to this at all. Unreal. Do you fight at your work? Why is it ok to do so as a baseball manager? I just don't get it at all.

I also don't wear pajamas to work.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-20-2013, 08:25 AM
It boggles the mind that people think fighting is an appropriate response to this at all. Unreal. Do you fight at your work? Why is it ok to do so as a baseball manager? I just don't get it at all.

This is a bit silly. Baseball managers and players know they won't get "fired" for fighting , most people who work for companies will get fired the second a punch is thrown. I am pretty sure at a past job or two I would have gladly forfeited a couple days worth of salary to punch some ******** (Mostly the High School and College jobs i.e Golf Caddy).

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-20-2013, 08:28 AM
No one has said it was ok to fight. He's getting suspended. We're simply saying it's a different situation than Sano, and we understand his motivation. Stupid act, but we see why it happened. Rushing the other manager? Dumb idea. No unwritten rules here.

I'd still bet on the other manager saying a "magic word" that got Dougie all hot and bothered, if that is the case I am sure the Twins brass know about it which is probably why they didn't go completely nuts on him/fire him/further punish him.

This could be the "honey nut cheerios" of the minor league world for all we know.

Willihammer
08-20-2013, 08:54 AM
So it's ok to fight with someone because their team made an aggressive play to avoid being out?

Jesus I hate unwritten rules. I simply can't say it enough.
Who says it was okay? The league will suspend both managers and that's probably justified. After my attempt at piecing together the events and the players involved, I do sympathize with the emotional stress Doug might have been under in that moment, that's all. However he didn't handle it in the most professional manner obviously.

old nurse
08-20-2013, 09:03 AM
I also don't wear pajamas to work.

I get to wear pajamas to work. I don't get to brawl. Seen some mighty nasty catfights.

Major Leauge Ready
08-20-2013, 09:09 AM
I don't think any of us should be taking just to strong of a stance one way or another. Once again, we have partial facts. Ryan may very well have taken exception with Mientkiewicz privately which would be the appropriate place to do so. I don't think anyone in management should be over critical of players with the media either.

The big difference to me is that there has been a pattern of poor behavior with Sano where Mientkiewicz has been the ultimate team guy which he took a little too far here. Personally, I would have let Mientkiewicz know privately that while I fully appreciate that he gives his heart and soul to the team, this was an extraordinarily poor lack of judgment and let the leauge handle the punishment. My guess would be that is probably what will happen.

IMO, some of you are going out of your way to criticize management.

Mr. Brooks
08-20-2013, 09:28 AM
I might be in the minority, and even though I consider myself rather analytical in consuming baseball, I actually really like that Dougie was out there backing up his players. Not to compare the level of baseball I've played and continue to play and have coached to professionals in high-A, but there certainly is something to be said for letting your players know you have their backs. No I don't think it matters numbers-wise or statistically, but it does matter in the atmosphere of being a team.

Managers at every level have had their players backs for decades.
The vast majority of them manage to do it without physically attacking someone on the field.

mike wants wins
08-20-2013, 10:06 AM
I'm not criticizing management (anymore....but I do think if you are going to publicly call out players, you should also publicly call out management, having studied organizational change management, I'm pretty sure that's what business leaders to run successful companies would do), I'm criticizing violence when not faced with violence. Violence is wrong.....just because it was tolerated for years (like, I don't know, greenies or racism) does not make it right.

Boom Boom
08-20-2013, 10:08 AM
I don't understand how anyone can support Mientkiewicz and his childish, unprofessional actions. What's so awesome about physical violence? Honestly I don't think his suspension is punishment enough.

Dman
08-20-2013, 11:12 AM
I didn't see the slide but if the catcher was blocking the plate then I don't understand the need to retaliate. Yeah the guy got hurt and that is unfortunate but it is a part of baseball. Even if they decided to retaliate with a pitch that ultimately missed Dougie should have been prepared to hear something from the other dugout. I really don't see how he can be defended in any way shape or form for going after the other manager. This had nothing to do with protecting his players and much more to do with Dougie's injured pride IMHO He should be better than that. I don't see how this promotes anything good except reinforcing kindergarten type behavior.

SD Buhr
08-20-2013, 11:26 AM
I'm not sure we'll know with any level of certainty what the repercussions will be until the Twins announce managerial/coaching assignments for 2014.

mike wants wins
08-20-2013, 11:33 AM
I'm not sure we'll know with any level of certainty what the repercussions will be until the Twins announce managerial/coaching assignments for 2014.

To be clear....I don't know there should be long term consequences.

TheLeviathan
08-20-2013, 12:27 PM
Who says it was okay? The league will suspend both managers and that's probably justified. After my attempt at piecing together the events and the players involved, I do sympathize with the emotional stress Doug might have been under in that moment, that's all. However he didn't handle it in the most professional manner obviously.

I don't sympathize with it at all. If you don't like that your catcher got trucked - tell him to get off the plate. Blaming the other team for being aggressive and not giving away an out is maddening. Not only do I not sympathize with that - I think less of the gritty, gutty Dougie I knew for not tipping his cap to a hard play.

Why should ANYONE have been insulted that their was a physical play at the plate? Both teams are in equal on that one - playing aggressively to get an out and to avoid an out. I fail to see why that is a sympathetic reason to act like an idiot.

Willihammer
08-20-2013, 12:40 PM
I don't sympathize with it at all. If you don't like that your catcher got trucked - tell him to get off the plate. Blaming the other team for being aggressive and not giving away an out is maddening. Not only do I not sympathize with that - I think less of the gritty, gutty Dougie I knew for not tipping his cap to a hard play.

Why should ANYONE have been insulted that their was a physical play at the plate? Both teams are in equal on that one - playing aggressively to get an out and to avoid an out. I fail to see why that is a sympathetic reason to act like an idiot.

By all means share with us what you know about that play because as I said I'm not 100% sure how it went down. But until video of the play surfaces or more facts come to light then I'll give Doug and the team the benefit of the doubt. I don't believe they'd retaliate for a clean slide at the plate or an impact if the catcher was blocking it.

mike wants wins
08-20-2013, 12:45 PM
How about explaining how violence is acceptable, in any circumstance where you are not protecting yourself from violence (and not the bogus "protecting" his player stuff....no one was in imminent harm here).

luckylager
08-20-2013, 12:52 PM
My god, brawls break out in almost every sport at one time or another. League hands out discipline. No one loses their job. These are games. Things get said. Tempers get lost. People do stupid things. The term "rhubarb" has been around baseball for a long time.

drjim
08-20-2013, 12:57 PM
This violence talk makes it seemed like Mientkiewicz knifed him or something. There wasn't even a punch thrown.

TheLeviathan
08-20-2013, 01:17 PM
By all means share with us what you know about that play because as I said I'm not 100% sure how it went down. But until video of the play surfaces or more facts come to light then I'll give Doug and the team the benefit of the doubt. I don't believe they'd retaliate for a clean slide at the plate or an impact if the catcher was blocking it.

Why would we give someone the benefit of the doubt for having a rationale reason for doing something irrational?

Managers and players retaliate for stupid nonsense all the time. If anything, most "retaliations" are for made-up, oversensitive stuff. We should defer to the assumption that they overreacted, not the reverse.

I don't know the details of this case, but I know that in the vast majority of cases where someone feels the need to "protect" someone else or "retaliate" - their reasons for doing so are pathetic and usually based on some bizarre notion of fair play.

mike wants wins
08-20-2013, 01:23 PM
My god, brawls break out in almost every sport at one time or another. League hands out discipline. No one loses their job. These are games. Things get said. Tempers get lost. People do stupid things. The term "rhubarb" has been around baseball for a long time.

doesn't make it right.....that's the part no one can explain, why is violence accpeted on the baseball field at all, or the hockey rink, or basketball court?

luckylager
08-20-2013, 01:43 PM
It is not accepted. That is why there will be suspensions handed down by the league. In competitive situations emotions run high. People do irrational things. There are sanctions. What do you want to see happen?

Boom Boom
08-20-2013, 02:08 PM
It is not accepted. That is why there will be suspensions handed down by the league. In competitive situations emotions run high. People do irrational things. There are sanctions. What do you want to see happen?

I want zero tolerance for this kind of behavior.

Most jobs are competitive. This shouldn't be brushed aside because it's pro sports.

luckylager
08-20-2013, 02:23 PM
I want zero tolerance for this kind of behavior.

Most jobs are competitive. This shouldn't be brushed aside because it's pro sports.

Yeah. Good luck.

Willihammer
08-20-2013, 02:26 PM
I do find it amusing how indignant people can get over a friendly little wrassle in a competitive setting. These guys are out of control!

SD Buhr
08-20-2013, 04:50 PM
It is not accepted. That is why there will be suspensions handed down by the league. In competitive situations emotions run high. People do irrational things. There are sanctions. What do you want to see happen?

Interestingly (and, to me, surprisingly) there were no suspensions handed down by the league. Only fines of undisclosed amounts.

TheLeviathan
08-20-2013, 07:10 PM
I do find it amusing how indignant people can get over a friendly little wrassle in a competitive setting. These guys are out of control!

If they were genuinely tough and competitive they wouldn't have been so offended by a homeplate collision.

mike wants wins
08-21-2013, 09:18 AM
It is not accepted. That is why there will be suspensions handed down by the league. In competitive situations emotions run high. People do irrational things. There are sanctions. What do you want to see happen?

I want it not to be done at all.......

The best way to think about stuff like this......if baseball started today, would they start fighting, or would it not be tolerated at all? I am pretty sure it would not be tolerated at all.

crarko
08-21-2013, 03:52 PM
Apparently this ne'er do well was just named Manager of the Year in the FSL.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-21-2013, 04:05 PM
I want it not to be done at all.......

The best way to think about stuff like this......if baseball started today, would they start fighting, or would it not be tolerated at all? I am pretty sure it would not be tolerated at all.
Yes, clearly all the sports since baseball was created included no fighting.
UFC for instance which was popularized within the past decade includes no such violence.

Also, a manager tackling another manager is hardly "fighting", if it bothers you so much, simply don't watch. It's actually pretty darn rare for a baseball player (or manager) to actually connect a punch to another player or manager.


A bit off topic, but something that bugs the hell out of me:
Some other sports are wayyyyy to PC these days, I have heard about T-ball, Coach Pitch, basketball and soccer leagues for younger kids that don't even keep score these days...do you think that is the way to raise kids and teach them sports? That there is no such thing as a winner and a loser. That everybody at the end of a day is a "winner" and that you should never try to improve yourself/team? Seems like a terrible way to fail to teach youngsters about failure and how to deal with/overcome it later in life. Ditto with all the extreme anti-bullying crap going on, I get that bad bullying has no place, but to protect kids from adversity at all costs is not going to benefit them in the long run.

/end rant
//Dougie M for MOY!!!!

Mr. Brooks
08-21-2013, 04:39 PM
Apparently this ne'er do well was just named Manager of the Year in the FSL.

I don't think anyone is arguing that he's not a good manager.

Mr. Brooks
08-21-2013, 04:49 PM
Yes, clearly all the sports since baseball was created included no fighting.
UFC for instance which was popularized within the past decade includes no such violence.

Also, a manager tackling another manager is hardly "fighting", if it bothers you so much, simply don't watch. It's actually pretty darn rare for a baseball player (or manager) to actually connect a punch to another player or manager.


A bit off topic, but something that bugs the hell out of me:
Some other sports are wayyyyy to PC these days, I have heard about T-ball, Coach Pitch, basketball and soccer leagues for younger kids that don't even keep score these days...do you think that is the way to raise kids and teach them sports? That there is no such thing as a winner and a loser. That everybody at the end of a day is a "winner" and that you should never try to improve yourself/team? Seems like a terrible way to fail to teach youngsters about failure and how to deal with/overcome it later in life. Ditto with all the extreme anti-bullying crap going on, I get that bad bullying has no place, but to protect kids from adversity at all costs is not going to benefit them in the long run.

/end rant
//Dougie M for MOY!!!!


Bullying is not constructive adversity.
I'd be curious of an example of what you consider to be "extreme anti bullying"?
I'd also be curious of an example of an acceptable level of bullying?

I agree that kids need to face all kinds of constructive adversity.
I agree on your point about the leagues that don't keep score. That is absurd. There is nothing wrong with teaching kids to be competitive, and that games and sports have winners and losers. It is important to teach kids as early as possible how to be a good winner and to keep from being a poor sport when they lose, which you can't do if you don't keep score.

But bullying is a completely different thing. There is nothing positive that can be learned from bullying. There is no constructive life lesson that a kid can take away from being tormented, assulted, or humiliated on an ongoing basis.

There are all kinds of major issues in America that can probably be traced in some way back to bullying. Kids are like sponges, they soak up everything. All bullying does is teach the bully that they can take advantage of the weak, something that many will carry into adulthood (which causes obvious problems in society), and causes resentment, isolation, and paranoia to form in the developing brain of the kid being bullied (which also causes quite obvious societal problems.)

I agree that kids are treated far too softly these days in many instances, but frankly this anti bullying campaign is definitely not one of them.

Kobs
08-21-2013, 05:04 PM
This violence talk makes it seemed like Mientkiewicz knifed him or something. There wasn't even a punch thrown.

He should have stabbed him. Perhaps the entire opposing roster. See if anyone tries to go through a Miracle catcher ever again. If I were a Miracle player, I would be pretty scared out there knowing that all my manager will do if I were in danger is attack the oldest guy on the field and then get manhandled.