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Seth Stohs
08-13-2013, 12:30 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2223-Not-Such-Minor-Signings

Rosterman
08-13-2013, 01:19 AM
It can also prevent advancement. Players like Rosario, Pinto and Ibarra have all been working slowly up the minors way. Look for the other two to be added to the 40-man roster this year. Yes, it is good to have minor league free agents if you don't have ready players for the upper levels of the minors, and also to be those bench replacement players if the major league utility guy is suddenly put into play.

clutterheart
08-13-2013, 02:22 AM
I was unaware that Josmil Pinto had a chance to be a FA. Didn't he get added to the 40 man?

troyhobbs
08-13-2013, 06:05 AM
Some of the "success" of these signings are relative, in that, on a better roster perhaps they don't make as big of an impact. Serviceable players on the cheap is one area where Twins FO excels though.

Thegrin
08-13-2013, 06:22 AM
Were these signings on Terry Ryan's watch ? I always thought they were.

Badsmerf
08-13-2013, 07:41 AM
This is an area of talent acquisition that Terry Ryan does pretty well. I'm not really sure if that is a good thing... or a bad thing...

ericchri
08-13-2013, 07:47 AM
It feels a little underwhelming right now, the ability to sign "fill-in" players that end up contributing. But in 5 or 6 years if it really is a skill that Terry Ryan can repeat we'll appreciate it a lot more as all our hot young prospects start getting expensive together.

Regardless, the story of these guys getting their chance and making the most of it is an awful lot of fun. Thanks for the constant reminders, Seth.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 08:15 AM
Every GM has to do this from time to time, and as others have pointed out, TR does well in this area. Granted the Twins need to do this a bit more than most right now, but if you can pick up a decent role player (Fein/Burton/Deduno), then it's a win.

John Bonnes
08-13-2013, 09:34 AM
It's absolutely helped the bullpen and the outlook is great for the Twins in that area. And it seems to be helping find a serviceable rotation arm or two, too.

Thinking back to the early 2000s, it seems like Ryan has some success in this area then, too. Not necessarily minor league free agents, but overlooked minor league assets that played a role. Dustin Mohr and Santana come to mind, but was Romero lifted from someone else? Seems like I wrote a lot about these types of players back then.

But interestingly it was not a strength once the Twins got competitive. "Fill in" pieces in the late 00s often struggled. They were different - often veteran major leaguers instead of hungry minor leaguers. And there was much less room for error - we didn't have four months for them to find a role and establish themselves

mike wants wins
08-13-2013, 10:01 AM
Right, John. Great at filling in when they had no talent, but when Rich Becker and Jason Tyner are your DH on a great team.....well.....I'm 100% with John on this one.

Siehbiscuit
08-13-2013, 10:04 AM
Finding "diamonds in the rough" isn't Terry Ran's issue, IMO. I have said all along that he is a good scout and has the eye to find talent. His issues are in assembling a Major League roster.

birdwatcher
08-13-2013, 10:26 AM
Finding diamonds in the rough is not just a Ryan strength, but an organizational strength of the field staff and scouts paying attention and being consulted, I believe. You don't uncover the Burtons and Fiens from a cubicle with Fangraphs up and running.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 11:06 AM
It's absolutely helped the bullpen and the outlook is great for the Twins in that area. And it seems to be helping find a serviceable rotation arm or two, too.

Thinking back to the early 2000s, it seems like Ryan has some success in this area then, too. Not necessarily minor league free agents, but overlooked minor league assets that played a role. Dustin Mohr and Santana come to mind, but was Romero lifted from someone else? Seems like I wrote a lot about these types of players back then.

But interestingly it was not a strength once the Twins got competitive. "Fill in" pieces in the late 00s often struggled. They were different - often veteran major leaguers instead of hungry minor leaguers. And there was much less room for error - we didn't have four months for them to find a role and establish themselves

It's a bit of a crap shoot. Those 2000s teams didn't exactly have tons of positions to be doing this with... and for every Fein, Burton, or Deduno there's a Jeff Gray, Walters, or DeVries.

Seth Stohs
08-13-2013, 11:11 AM
It can also prevent advancement. Players like Rosario, Pinto and Ibarra have all been working slowly up the minors way. Look for the other two to be added to the 40-man roster this year. Yes, it is good to have minor league free agents if you don't have ready players for the upper levels of the minors, and also to be those bench replacement players if the major league utility guy is suddenly put into play.

Rosario doesn't have to be added until after the 2014 season, so he likely won't be added this offseason (could be added for September, though unlikely, and could be added by June of next year, pretty likely).

I think Ibarra will be in the same situation as Pinto a year ago. They become minor league free agents right after the World Series. They both signed back with the Twins that day. Then when the 40 man roster decisions have to be made in November, they added Pinto. They could do the same with Ibarra, or just add him right away at that time. My guess is he's one we will see in September.

Seth Stohs
08-13-2013, 11:12 AM
I was unaware that Josmil Pinto had a chance to be a FA. Didn't he get added to the 40 man?

Yes, he was a free agent right after the World Series, but he signed a minor league contract with the Twins that day... then he was added to the 40 man roster in November.

Seth Stohs
08-13-2013, 11:14 AM
Every GM has to do this from time to time, and as others have pointed out, TR does well in this area. Granted the Twins need to do this a bit more than most right now, but if you can pick up a decent role player (Fein/Burton/Deduno), then it's a win.

Correct! Good, top teams typically have less holes to fill, less opportunity, and it's just depth. Looking back, these moves typically happen on the fringes. It's relievers, like Tony Fiore. Generally, the minor league free agents are signed for depth and to help the AAA roster.

Seth Stohs
08-13-2013, 11:18 AM
Finding "diamonds in the rough" isn't Terry Ran's issue, IMO. I have said all along that he is a good scout and has the eye to find talent. His issues are in assembling a Major League roster.

I'd say Ryan did a pretty good job of assembling those early to mid '00s rosters. It didn't happen overnight either... took much of the mid-to-late 90s.

I'd agree with the talent coming from different places. Consider Pedro Florimon was a waiver claim from the Orioles. The Twins claimed him, and soon after, they DFAd him and were able to pass him through waivers and keep him on a minor league deal.

I know Clete Thomas is not a starting outfielder, but he can be a solid 4th or 5th outfielder, and he was a waiver claim. Lots of ways to add talent.

However, for a team to be good, it's going to take those top talent prospects leading the way... the first round picks, the stars will lead the way. The others will contribute nicely.

Seth Stohs
08-13-2013, 11:47 AM
It's a bit of a crap shoot. Those 2000s teams didn't exactly have tons of positions to be doing this with... and for every Fein, Burton, or Deduno there's a Jeff Gray, Walters, or DeVries.

Gray wasn't a minor league free agent.
Walters has made 20 starts for the Twins... Very few minor league free agents do that.
De Vries is a long-time guy in the organization who got a chance, but he was not a free agent. ... he will likely be after the season.

jun
08-13-2013, 12:20 PM
I think Colabello is one of the major contributors not PJ Walters.

Badsmerf
08-13-2013, 01:23 PM
I would disagree with him doing a good job in the 00's. Actually, I think he did a pretty poor job of finding talent like he has lately. Those teams really only needed a few pieces to play at an acceptable level, and he failed to find those pieces miserably. From RonDL White, to Tony Batista to Sidney Ponson, these guys were not good investments or even attempts at an investment. His forte seems to be finding guys to succeed in the bullpen.

Lately he has found more talent in guys like Thomas and Colabello so perhaps he is getting better at this. When the big time talent starts trickling into the MLB roster I hope he can continue to find useful pieces, because those are the guys that can make the difference in winning championships.

tjsyam921
08-13-2013, 02:53 PM
I'm sure the Twins losing and lack of upper talent situation has played into some of these players signing with the Twins over better MLB teams. Knowing they will have a better chance of making the majors.

Thegrin
08-13-2013, 03:01 PM
Remember the "Soul Patrol"? They were pretty solid for a couple years. Lawton had a couple good years for Cleveland after he left us, but Jacques Jones never could hit NL pitching. Of course, we all know what Torrii Hunter has done since he left us. Who were they replaced by ? Delmon through trade and Span and Revere came up through the organization. Now we are rebuilding again, but without a Hunter type to ease the transition.
I don't know how anyone can say TR can't assemble a winning roster when you look closely at the transitions.

Lest people forget, unprecedented injuries to the Twins starters led to the Twins downfall in 2011. Scott Baker went down. Pavano went down. Slowey went down. Blackburn went down. Perkins went down. Liriano was wildly inconsistent. We had injuries to Mauer and Morneau and Span, as well.

Nobody could have planned for such a total collapse. Nobody.

Siehbiscuit
08-13-2013, 03:15 PM
@Seth, My disagreement is with his unwillingness to purchase ANY free agent talent that isn't "dumpster diving" quality.

The Twins need to acquire talent, not dumpster dive anymore looking for gems. If the player you want is what you need to succeed, go and get him. Sometimes good things cost more.

Tigers example: Verlander (top 5 draft pick); Scherzer (trade with AZ in 2010, trade included Granderson, Phil Coke also recieved Austin Jackson); Sanchez (Trade with FL in 2012; traded for Tigers top pitching prospect Jacob Turner and 3 other minor leaguers then re-signed via FA); Porcello (1st rd draft pick); Doug Fister (trade with Seattle in 2011, four players and their previous 1st round draft pick).

The point is the Tigers have assembled the best pitching staff in baseball using bold trades in consecutive years 2010-12 and have paid a price with prospects. The Twins have prospects...let's see some bold moves and quit filling in our rotation with Correia's and Pelfrey's.

jimbo92107
08-13-2013, 03:36 PM
It's a bit of a crap shoot. Those 2000s teams didn't exactly have tons of positions to be doing this with... and for every Fein, Burton, or Deduno there's a Jeff Gray, Walters, or DeVries.

I haven't given up on De Vries yet. I think the guy has a little of what Albers has, the brains and accuracy to keep the ball down and away from the middle. Bad luck for him that he hurt his arm. I hope to see him again someday in a Twins uniform.

Thegrin
08-13-2013, 05:12 PM
I haven't given up on De Vries yet. I think the guy has a little of what Albers has, the brains and accuracy to keep the ball down and away from the middle. Bad luck for him that he hurt his arm. I hope to see him again someday in a Twins uniform.

The same can be said for Diamond and Hendriks. Look closely at the other thread on this subject. There NO FA pitchers coming available that are good enough to lead the Twins. The Twins are going to have to figure it out with what we have got already... or maybe TR can make another "Minor Signing".

Kwak
08-13-2013, 05:50 PM
I think there are GMs (and field managers/head coaches) that are best suited for only crtain situations (times in the life-cycle) of a team. Example: Ryan seems to be best suited to rebuild a bad team into a middle-of-the-road team. If said team's owner want to be a championship team, then a different GM would likely perform better. Ball players cost, better players even more. Some franchises can just write checks, because they can, while others would have to exchange their future to acquire the talent upgrades to reach the championship level. To me, Ryan isn't the GM to take a decent team to the top--but he is very good at turning around a bad team.

drjim
08-13-2013, 06:04 PM
I think there are GMs (and field managers/head coaches) that are best suited for only crtain situations (times in the life-cycle) of a team. Example: Ryan seems to be best suited to rebuild a bad team into a middle-of-the-road team. If said team's owner want to be a championship team, then a different GM would likely perform better. Ball players cost, better players even more. Some franchises can just write checks, because they can, while others would have to exchange their future to acquire the talent upgrades to reach the championship level. To me, Ryan isn't the GM to take a decent team to the top--but he is very good at turning around a bad team.

Would you say the same thing about Billy Beane and Andrew Friedman?

Otwins
08-14-2013, 12:37 AM
I think there are GMs (and field managers/head coaches) that are best suited for only crtain situations (times in the life-cycle) of a team. Example: Ryan seems to be best suited to rebuild a bad team into a middle-of-the-road team. If said team's owner want to be a championship team, then a different GM would likely perform better. Ball players cost, better players even more. Some franchises can just write checks, because they can, while others would have to exchange their future to acquire the talent upgrades to reach the championship level. To me, Ryan isn't the GM to take a decent team to the top--but he is very good at turning around a bad team.

You might be right but I would like to see him have a chance to build the championship team with a competetive budget. I think he has that now. It will be interesting to see how he uses it. Can he break the old habits? Stay tuned.