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View Full Version : Article: Dozier, Rosario and the Future at Second Base



Cody Christie
08-12-2013, 11:48 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2222-Dozier-Rosario-and-the-Future-at-Second-Base

Thegrin
08-13-2013, 05:09 AM
and don't forget James Beresford, who is only 24 years old and has a combined AA & AAA BA of .306 for 2013. He played for Australia in the WBP.

2013 Season




Team





















League
Avg
G
AB
R
H
2B
3B
HR
RBI
TB
BB
SO
SB
CS
OBP
SLG
OPS


NBR
Eas
.316
45
158
21
50
5
0
0
19
55
14
22
5
0
.373
.348
.721


ROC
Int
.293
41
133
25
39
3
1
0
12
44
13
22
4
0
.362
.331
.693




.306
86
291
46
89
8
1
0
31
99
27
44
9
0
.368
.340
.708

AM.
08-13-2013, 05:31 AM
I certainly hope that Dozier keeps this up. That catch he made last night was spectacular. If Rosario keeps coming, they might have a trade possibility in 12 or 16 months.

Major Leauge Ready
08-13-2013, 06:39 AM
I certainly hope that Dozier keeps this up. That catch he made last night was spectacular. If Rosario keeps coming, they might have a trade possibility in 12 or 16 months.

Rosario or Dozier might end up being a very important trade chip to add a front of the rotation SP. Walker and Arcia might end up in this position too. Let's hope even more of the scenarios show up in the next couple of years because I think we are going to need to use or depth in position players to come up with SPs.

Badsmerf
08-13-2013, 07:50 AM
I have to think they will give Dozier another shot at SS. If this season is for real and he can make it work at SS, the Twins will be looking alright up the middle. Really, the only spot on the INF in question going forward would then be 1b, which has Harrison and Vargas coming.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 08:26 AM
If Dozier continues to hit, you have to give him a shot again at SS. He's posted a .900 OPS for the last two months now. If he can keep an OPS for a season over .800 and provide average defense at SS, he's a huge asset.

Oldgoat_MN
08-13-2013, 08:47 AM
I agree with the SS talk.
I like Florimon, but with Carroll gone we now have no one other than the 33 year old Bernier to back him up. Escobar and Beresford have to spend some time there.
(maybe Plouffe, too? Sometimes that makes sense, sometimes that thought scares me)

Also, I have been a big Rosario fan. If Dozier keeps posting an OPS > .800 I don't see how Rosario sneaks into a starting role at 2B unless Dozier moves to another position.

It is not written in stone that Rosario will be better than what Dozier is turning into.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-13-2013, 08:59 AM
Dozier to SS only makes to much sense.

Don't Feed the Greed Guy
08-13-2013, 09:00 AM
I think there will be enough innings and at-bats for a three-man middle infield of Dozier, Florimon, and Rosario. We have been waiting for this sort of talent, and it would be a crime to trade away one of the three before we see what we've got.

Dozier is sitting on 692 major league at-bats. We won't see him "seasoned" as a professional hitter until that number reaches 2000. I can see him mature into a J.J. Hardy type of middle infielder with a consistent on-base percentage over .300, with twenty or more dingers. He's on that pace right now. He could slide into the DH spot on days when Rosario and Florimon are in the starting lineup, or he could be a solid pinch-hitting option in the late innings.

As for giving Dozier another shot at shortstop? I think we've got our shortstop of the future already. Pedro Florimon is putting up better offensive numbers than Ozzie Smith displayed over his first four seasons. (The Wizard of Oz---the gold standard for MLB Shortstops) Florimon leads the American League in Total Zone Runs and Range Factor among shortstops. Florimon also has only 431 major league at-bats, and has room for a modest offensive upside. Still, Dozier could slide over to SS to give Florimon a break. Finally, I think we will need a shortstop with dynamic range with Miguel Sano at third. Sano has a cannon arm, but his range is a bit more suspect. Florimon helps solve that issue.

Dozier and Florimon aren't eligible for free agency until 2019. Rosario's clock isn't even ticking, yet. Why wish away what we've already got--a solid middle infield for years to come.

orangevening
08-13-2013, 09:10 AM
If it's not broke don't fix it. You don't mess with Dozier head by moving him back to SS. You just got his confidence up after working his butt off learning a new position this off season. Fortunately I believe the Twins think this way too. Dozier and Floriman work great together. When Rosario is ready in 1,2,3 years then you cross that bridge then (sounds like Rosario has a lot to work on defensively anyway).

mike wants wins
08-13-2013, 09:13 AM
Three years? ugh. Rosario will be ready sometime next year.....it's nice they have this potential problem. But I'd like to see a bit more sustained success from Dozier before I gave up on one of the top 50 prospects in all of baseball being likely to be better than him.....

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 09:27 AM
Three years? ugh. Rosario will be ready sometime next year.....it's nice they have this potential problem. But I'd like to see a bit more sustained success from Dozier before I gave up on one of the top 50 prospects in all of baseball being likely to be better than him.....

Yeah pretty much this.
I think at worst you could keep Rosario in AAA all year next year if Dozier and Florimon do well, but if Rosario continues doing what he's doing, he's going to force the issue by 2015. I'm not against that, but no need to let the kid languish either.

Also, I don't see how we are messing with his head by moving him back to SS. I don't have a problem keeping him at 2nd for now as he gets more comfortable hitting, but if Dozier continues to hit (and Rosario does too), I think it makes a ton of sense. He came up as a SS, so it isn't as if he has to learn the position, he's just going to have to work a bit more on defense and probably wont' be a GG. That's a fair trade if he can be average.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-13-2013, 09:34 AM
Yeah pretty much this.
I think at worst you could keep Rosario in AAA all year next year if Dozier and Florimon do well, but if Rosario continues doing what he's doing, he's going to force the issue by 2015. I'm not against that, but no need to let the kid languish either.

Also, I don't see how we are messing with his head by moving him back to SS. I don't have a problem keeping him at 2nd for now as he gets more comfortable hitting, but if Dozier continues to hit (and Rosario does too), I think it makes a ton of sense. He came up as a SS, so it isn't as if he has to learn the position, he's just going to have to work a bit more on defense and probably wont' be a GG. That's a fair trade if he can be average.

Yeah there is a definite trade off you can live with at SS, if Dozier can put up some nice numbers at the dish you can certainly live with "average" defense. Hell, a Sano, Dozier and Rosario MI/3B would be deadly at the plate, and at least could be "average" in the field.

Also with the Twins FINALLY getting some strike out pitchers, defense importance should become a bit less. (But also keep in mind, the OF defense should be pretty damn solid from here on out)

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-13-2013, 09:34 AM
Also what should be noted, is that if Rosario pushes the issue quickly and the Twins aren't ready at the time to move Dozier to SS for whatever reason, Rosario could take over in CF for a bit.

birdwatcher
08-13-2013, 09:58 AM
We all hope that this run is for real and sustains itself, but it's possible that Dozier cools off and settles in with production that is more in the "meh" category. Whatever the result, isn't it pleasant to be discussing the MI problem in such a different light than we were just two months ago? Gotta love baseball.

Linus
08-13-2013, 10:05 AM
Disagree with the moving him to SS talk. His highest and best use is a second baseman where is an absolute elite defender and good offensive contributor. Why move him back to SS where he was really substantially below average. When Rosario is ready, best value is to use him as a trade chip or keep him and trade Rosario. We still need to add pitching and it ain't going be with free agents next year.

ThePuck
08-13-2013, 10:09 AM
Dozier has an extra-base hit in each of his last seven games, which is just one game shy of the Twins' record.

Monkeypaws
08-13-2013, 10:14 AM
Having a surplus of something other than corner outfielders or 1st basemen is a pretty nice problem to have. Dozier has been Pedroia Lite out there lately.

twinsnorth49
08-13-2013, 10:35 AM
I think Dozier's troubles at SS last year stemmed from is trouble at the plate, pretty hard to focus on the field when you're thinking about how crappy your last at bat was, again.
He's been a SS his whole career, now that he seems to be figuring it out at the plate, I think he could be successful there.

Don't Feed the Greed Guy
08-13-2013, 11:24 AM
Also what should be noted, is that if Rosario pushes the issue quickly and the Twins aren't ready at the time to move Dozier to SS for whatever reason, Rosario could take over in CF for a bit.

Absolutely! Hicks is not longer the "sure thing" he appeared to be out of Spring Training. He's batting .209 in AAA with only one extra base hit. Position switches--even from outfield to infield and vice versa, can occur at the MLB level too, ala Robin Yount and others. We know Rosario can play at the keystone postion eventually. Let him break in at his natural position, then Buxton can push him back into the infield in two years.

Also, back to the three-headed middle infield, why can't Rosario play a few in the outfield while Dozier and Florimon team up. Let's keep the band together! :D

DJL44
08-13-2013, 12:29 PM
Buxton is only one level behind Rosario. It won't be two years between their debuts.

70charger
08-13-2013, 12:30 PM
Disagree with the moving him to SS talk. His highest and best use is a second baseman where is an absolute elite defender and good offensive contributor. Why move him back to SS where he was really substantially below average. When Rosario is ready, best value is to use him as a trade chip or keep him and trade Rosario. We still need to add pitching and it ain't going be with free agents next year.

I see what you're saying, but I don't think we've seen the best of shortstop Dozier. I mean, given how "substantially below average" he was last year in a similar middle infield spot, could anyone have predicted how ridiculously good he'd be this year?

Frankly, I think if we were to move Dozier to shortstop tomorrow (hypothetically), we'd see a player much more similar to current-2B-Dozier than to previous-below-average-SS-Dozier. This year and last year are very far apart now; I don't see the logic in assuming he'd revert to last year's form because he moved several feet to his right on the diamond.

Ultimately, I think positional flexibility is going to be useful if we actually have the logjam we think we do (and by the way, I don't know how viable Beresford is if he can't even hit a double now and then). Let's not foreclose the possibility of moving Dozier to SS or moving Rosario to CF or moving Plouffe to wherever, because in the end we may need to in order to get bats in the lineup and rookies in the show. No one knows how this is going to play out, but if Dozier continues his hot streak, we owe it to ourselves to consider the possibility.

Linus
08-13-2013, 12:56 PM
I see what you're saying, but I don't think we've seen the best of shortstop Dozier. I mean, given how "substantially below average" he was last year in a similar middle infield spot, could anyone have predicted how ridiculously good he'd be this year?

Frankly, I think if we were to move Dozier to shortstop tomorrow (hypothetically), we'd see a player much more similar to current-2B-Dozier than to previous-below-average-SS-Dozier. This year and last year are very far apart now; I don't see the logic in assuming he'd revert to last year's form because he moved several feet to his right on the diamond.

Ultimately, I think positional flexibility is going to be useful if we actually have the logjam we think we do (and by the way, I don't know how viable Beresford is if he can't even hit a double now and then). Let's not foreclose the possibility of moving Dozier to SS or moving Rosario to CF or moving Plouffe to wherever, because in the end we may need to in order to get bats in the lineup and rookies in the show. No one knows how this is going to play out, but if Dozier continues his hot streak, we owe it to ourselves to consider the possibility.

There is no harm in trying other than it would take a while to find out. I think the reason why he struggled defensively at short was simply that his skills are much better suited to second base. The two positions are quite different in several important ways that benefit Dozier. He uses his acrobatic athletic ability to cover ground at second diving and stopping balls that would not be possible playing short. This acrobatic aspect to his game extends his range at second, compared to short. Also, his arm strength is not there to be an elite shortstop, but is just fine for second base. Good shortstops have to make tough plays without leaving their feet as much and have to have a gun to then make more difficult throws with less time. Nothing wrong with being a damn good second baseman.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 01:14 PM
Disagree with the moving him to SS talk. His highest and best use is a second baseman where is an absolute elite defender and good offensive contributor. Why move him back to SS where he was really substantially below average. When Rosario is ready, best value is to use him as a trade chip or keep him and trade Rosario. We still need to add pitching and it ain't going be with free agents next year.

If the next wave has no immediate needs, then sure. But I doubt you will get a Bogarts/Profar/Tallison/Bundy type guy for Rosario. Team's dont' give up on types of prospects. What you are left with is a good 2B and Rosario being traded for something that you really cannot use right now. I'd rather move Dozier to short if that's my choice.

Dave T
08-13-2013, 01:23 PM
Dozier is doing something that I didn't think was possible, namely learning to hit for power after he gets to the major leagues. If he can keep this up, he'll be the Twins 2B for a long, long time. They are not going to mess this up. The Twins are back to a classic "strong up the middle" defense, with power hitters/slow fielders at the corners. I think Rosario will be changing positions again.

Kwak
08-13-2013, 01:25 PM
Or next year trade Dozier for starting pitching? We can toss in Duensing. :)

drjim
08-13-2013, 01:37 PM
Or next year trade Dozier for starting pitching? We can toss in Duensing. :)

And Walker?

ashburyjohn
08-13-2013, 01:41 PM
There is no harm in trying other than it would take a while to find out.

That, to me, is what 2013 was always about. Finding things out. Taking the time, as needed.

ashburyjohn
08-13-2013, 01:42 PM
Dozier is doing something that I didn't think was possible, namely learning to hit for power after he gets to the major leagues.

Kirby Puckett on line one... oops, the phone went dead.

/ too soon?

troyhobbs
08-13-2013, 01:42 PM
Wait till we see what Rosario can do before we decide what to do with Dozier. I think Rosario is next to a sure thing when it comes to stud potential.

TwinsFanInPhilly
08-13-2013, 02:01 PM
Don't sleep on Jorge Polanco, either.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 02:26 PM
Dozier to SS only makes to much sense.

Two months ago, you were suggesting DFA. :)

mlhouse
08-13-2013, 02:27 PM
This points to one of the problems with the Twins way. They will not trade prospects. We miss out on maximizing the value of many of these prospects, particularly when many if not most of them will never be quality MLB players.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 02:28 PM
Dozier is doing something that I didn't think was possible, namely learning to hit for power after he gets to the major leagues. If he can keep this up, he'll be the Twins 2B for a long, long time. They are not going to mess this up. The Twins are back to a classic "strong up the middle" defense, with power hitters/slow fielders at the corners. I think Rosario will be changing positions again.

This isn't quite true. He put up pretty good offensive numbers in AA for 2011 and wasn't bad in the lower minors either. The big thing I see is that his approach seems to have normalized a bit with AA. He was a very patient hitter but that seemed to go away last year. Now he's doing a better job picking which borderline pitches to take and his striking out less and walking more.

mlhouse
08-13-2013, 02:30 PM
And, the improvement in Dozier is just another example of letting things play out. Why designate him for assignment even when he was struggling? We need to let these guys get at bats at the major league level and let them sort themselves out. If one guy, lets say Chris Parmalee simply does not work out you move on to another. The point is that we do not want to be going through this process when the team is rebuilt. That is how the 87 team was built and how we should look going forward. Take the losses now. Find the winners. Shed the losers.

USAFChief
08-13-2013, 02:38 PM
I doubt we'll see Dozier back at SS in a Twins uniform. If they thought he could handle the position as an every day player they wouldn't have moved him off it.

I tend to agree, from what I saw in the past. 2b is where guys who don't quite have the chops for SS usually end up.

Willihammer
08-13-2013, 02:51 PM
If the choice is between Dozier and Florimon / Escobar / another version of Jamey Carroll, I would prefer Dozier every time. His defense wasn't that bad last year and his bat is about a tier and half better than these other scrubs.

Brock Beauchamp
08-13-2013, 03:21 PM
This article was pretty enlightening about Dozier:

Warne: Why Brian Dozier has become the Twins' second-best player | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins (http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Warne_Why_Brian_Dozier_has_become_the_Twins_second best_player081213)

The fact that Bruno found a hitch in his swing and he immediately started hitting is a good sign that the new Brian Dozier is here to stay.

Dilligaf69
08-13-2013, 07:54 PM
Either way it's a nice problem to possibly have, but I wouldn't mess with him unless Rosario becomes too good to pass up at 2B.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 08:24 PM
This points to one of the problems with the Twins way. They will not trade prospects. We miss out on maximizing the value of many of these prospects, particularly when many if not most of them will never be quality MLB players.

That's not a Twins issue, that's an MLB issue. Prospect for prospect swaps are rare. Besides, right now, the Twins should be acquiring prospects, not trading them.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 08:29 PM
And, the improvement in Dozier is just another example of letting things play out. Why designate him for assignment even when he was struggling? We need to let these guys get at bats at the major league level and let them sort themselves out. If one guy, lets say Chris Parmalee simply does not work out you move on to another. The point is that we do not want to be going through this process when the team is rebuilt. That is how the 87 team was built and how we should look going forward. Take the losses now. Find the winners. Shed the losers.

This was part of my beef with the Parmelee situation. Dozier has been handed the job and did not have a lot of expectations. He was simply told to do the job, and he did it well. His defense was excellent, but it took 2 months for the offense to actually start contributing, and now we are talking like he's more than a placeholder, but a fixture for the next wave. I'm not quite sure he's there (yet), but the bottom line is that you have to play him.

Parms, on the other hand, got 3 weeks of PT and then got benched for Arcia. He got a couple more and then got benched again for Arcia. I don't know if Parmelee will ever be good, a solid MLB contributor, or a backup, but the bottom line is that he should be playing... EVERY.DAY. His minor league career says that he can hit. It may take some time to adjust, but the kid has shown patience (probably a bit too much of it to be honest), which is one of the most important skills needed to transition to MLB play. I kind of hope Morneau is traded just so Parms can play first every day for the rest of the year.

drjim
08-13-2013, 08:44 PM
This was part of my beef with the Parmelee situation. Dozier has been handed the job and did not have a lot of expectations. He was simply told to do the job, and he did it well. His defense was excellent, but it took 2 months for the offense to actually start contributing, and now we are talking like he's more than a placeholder, but a fixture for the next wave. I'm not quite sure he's there (yet), but the bottom line is that you have to play him.

Parms, on the other hand, got 3 weeks of PT and then got benched for Arcia. He got a couple more and then got benched again for Arcia. I don't know if Parmelee will ever be good, a solid MLB contributor, or a backup, but the bottom line is that he should be playing... EVERY.DAY. His minor league career says that he can hit. It may take some time to adjust, but the kid has shown patience (probably a bit too much of it to be honest), which is one of the most important skills needed to transition to MLB play. I kind of hope Morneau is traded just so Parms can play first every day for the rest of the year.

The problem with Parmelee is a slow bat. No amount of playing time is going to remedy that. This isn't to say he shouldn't be playing more, but I suspect it won't make much of a difference.

Jdosen
08-13-2013, 09:13 PM
I love how well Dozier has hit since the beginning of June and I think he has been awesome defensively at 2B all season, but I need to see more of the same from hit at the plate than a couple months before I'm ready to say I think we should trade Rosario because we're set there for the forseeable future. I think the Twins should just let Dozier keep playing there as long as he is playing well, and if Rosario is knocking on the door, get him ML at bats in a creative way. If this Dozer is indeed for real and Rosario ends up panning out, playing time for both of them will be a good problem to have. I'm just not ready to say we have that problem just yet.

twinsnorth49
08-13-2013, 10:28 PM
This was part of my beef with the Parmelee situation. Dozier has been handed the job and did not have a lot of expectations. He was simply told to do the job, and he did it well. His defense was excellent, but it took 2 months for the offense to actually start contributing, and now we are talking like he's more than a placeholder, but a fixture for the next wave. I'm not quite sure he's there (yet), but the bottom line is that you have to play him.

Parms, on the other hand, got 3 weeks of PT and then got benched for Arcia. He got a couple more and then got benched again for Arcia. I don't know if Parmelee will ever be good, a solid MLB contributor, or a backup, but the bottom line is that he should be playing... EVERY.DAY. His minor league career says that he can hit. It may take some time to adjust, but the kid has shown patience (probably a bit too much of it to be honest), which is one of the most important skills needed to transition to MLB play. I kind of hope Morneau is traded just so Parms can play first every day for the rest of the year.

The difference though is that Dozier had the luxury of absolutely nobody in front or behind pushing the issue. It was bad enough for Parms with Mornie and Doumit taking the playing time without Arcia making noise.

I agree, I'd like to see Parms get the sustained playing time as well, the situation just hasn't presented itself like it did for Dozier.

TheLeviathan
08-13-2013, 10:52 PM
The problem with Parmelee is a slow bat. No amount of playing time is going to remedy that. This isn't to say he shouldn't be playing more, but I suspect it won't make much of a difference.

Maybe there are things he can do to improve that working at this level and that's the issue. Dozier took to coaching and worked through his issues, I'm not sure Parmelee has gotten the same chance.

There is no reason a guy like Hermann should be getting ABs over him. Being bad affords us the ability to let guys struggle if it can pay future dividends.

Don't Feed the Greed Guy
08-13-2013, 11:23 PM
I'm not sure Parmelee has gotten the same chance.

There is no reason a guy like Hermann should be getting ABs over him. .

Since when does Parmelee catch, especially Albers? Herrmann brings far more versatility to the Twins MLB roster, and Parms has had his shot, both with the Twins and at Rochester.

stringer bell
08-13-2013, 11:25 PM
I'm a Dozier fan and even I can't say he has established himself to the point that alternatives (moving him to SS, moving Rosario to the outfield) or trading a top prospect like Rosario should be seriously considered. However, he's done great since the end of May and certainly is among the better players on the Twins that are going out on the field every day. I still think he would be better served by batting down in the order, but right now he is the best lead-off guy the Twins have.

Kwak
08-14-2013, 12:08 AM
Dozier--he's had 2 1/2 very nice months, certainly enough to be a starter next year. However, the parallel to Plouffe is too close. Dozier needs to turn those 2 1/2 months into a full year next year before he "shall be annointed".

Parmelee--how in h he climbed aboard is hazy, is a completely another matter. Dozier (and Plouffe) had a rabbi (or godfather) to protect him and give him (them) that "patience" to see if he could succeed--Parmelee doesn't have "one". Life's unfair--but this happens. If he is destined to succeed he will be a Garrett--picked-up by a losing team and be given a chance to succeed--and then do it. His "problem" is Doumit, the uneven hitting of the whole team, and Gardenhire's thirst for interchangeable parts with a desire for a third catcher. Hermann is being provided with his opportunity to prove himself, so Ryan can trade Doumit. Parmelee is just the "odd-man-out". True, if he had been a big success (and sustained it) he wouldn't be in this predicament.

Another fly in the ointment is how well does Sano play 3B at the MLB level? If he is another Cuddyer--ugh! Sano gets moved and then the need for a SS with way above average defensive skills is paramount--meaning forget Dozier as a SS. But that issue won't have to be faced for "awhile".

Then the issue of starting pitching, and the Dozier/Rosario question--but that's more than a year away also.

TheLeviathan
08-14-2013, 05:01 AM
Since when does Parmelee catch, especially Albers? Herrmann brings far more versatility to the Twins MLB roster, and Parms has had his shot, both with the Twins and at Rochester.

Since when do at bats in Rochester count? Im not sure how to even address something like that.

Hermann's versatility should be on the bench, he is only hitting because the Twins insist on resting Mauer from catching (not a bad idea but not necessary). Parms needs to be sinking or swimming all year in the bigs, we know what he can do against AAA pitching.