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mike wants wins
08-10-2013, 06:24 PM
So, they had the 4th most money, and signed one top 30 international free agent.....well, number 29 is still there. I do not understand this franchise. Can they really claim to be doing everything they can to add talent? Note.....I am going by BA rankings. According to some national writers, they also refused to eat any of Morneau's contract. I am truly baffled.

CGNikolic
08-10-2013, 06:36 PM
Baffled is a good word for this scenario. I like TR and want to give him the benefit of the doubt.. But doing nothing is not going to help this organization.

raindog
08-10-2013, 06:45 PM
I can't even begin to understand it. They passed on a great chance to add talent.

Smcginnity
08-10-2013, 10:10 PM
I'm not baffled. I'm pissed. Not only do they not use their international money, but, they also didn't eat any of Morneau's salary to get a decent prospect in return. Now, they will lose him for nothing. Next year, they lose the contracts of Pelfrey, Morneau, Blackburn, and Carrol. That's a significant amount of money that they SHOULD be spending somehow. Do I think they can land a top FA? No. But, they should try and add more international money somehow and actually SPEND IT next year. Ugh. I'm sick of Terry Ryan and the love he gets. In my opinion, he is overrated.

Smcginnity
08-10-2013, 10:14 PM
Also, with the Free Agents pitchers available, the cost for them will be ridiculous (even Josh Johnson). So, I say just roll with the youngsters and Correia (reluctantly). Just do Deduno, Gibson, Correia, Hendricks, and Albers. The FA Market is just as good as what we have (of what we can realistically get). Hope that we can have Meyer, May, Rogers, Dean, Darnell, and others sub in if the others fail. We are at a point where there is NO point to bring in these scrub pitchers anymore. Just a joke.

Larsbars08
08-10-2013, 11:32 PM
I feel like a lot of the signings aren't really publicized. Also, these signings happen all year after the deadline. I'll be honest, I don't remember hearing about guys like Lewis Thorpe and Felix Jorge signing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think either of those guys were anywhere near BA's top 30 international free agents. Now I would say that they are probably top 20 prospects in the system, and definitely some of the more exciting pitching prospects. Not to say that they weren't mentioned, but just because we aren't hearing about it doesn't mean nothing is happening.

If by next year, the Twins haven't used a large chunk of the international signing bonus allotment, then I will be angry. I think you have to give it time. Obviously there were circumstances, but we didn't sign Sano until September. Guys with upside don't always sign immediately after the beginning of international free agency.

Oxtung
08-11-2013, 12:10 AM
I don't get as frustrated about international signings (unless we don't spend the money) because BA et al can't scout internationally as well as they do for the draft. So there are going to be players that slip through their net that are actually pretty good. As long as Ryan spends the money and his some of his players turn out to have upside I'm OK. As Lars said Thorpe is looking good right now. Jorge, Landa, Rosario and Romero were signed by Smith though. We'll have to wait and see when these guys get to A-ball to have a better handle on them.

raindog
08-11-2013, 02:15 AM
Good points by the last two posters. There is still time left to spend the money. I sure hope they do.

shs_59
08-11-2013, 02:42 AM
So, they had the 4th most money, and signed one top 30 international free agent.....well, number 29 is still there. I do not understand this franchise. Can they really claim to be doing everything they can to add talent? Note.....I am going by BA rankings. According to some national writers, they also refused to eat any of Morneau's contract. I am truly baffled.

At this point, I'm really starting to think Morneau is in the 2014 plans!

Yes i said it, let him hit his way to earning a 2014 contract at say, ..........8 or 9 million.

kab21
08-11-2013, 03:43 AM
I think we need to wait until the signing period is actually over and we know how much money they have spent and who they have actually signed. It's also important to remember that in int'l FA it's usually better to have quantity rather than only a couple of top signees.

I can understand the initial disappointment though.

Thegrin
08-11-2013, 04:49 AM
I doubt anybody here has personally seen any of the international free agents. We don't know what has been offered for whom. This thread is a lot of hot air based on a lack of information.
We may have some signings between now and Spring Training 2014.

old nurse
08-11-2013, 06:53 AM
I'm not baffled. I'm pissed. Not only do they not use their international money, but, they also didn't eat any of Morneau's salary to get a decent prospect in return. Now, they will lose him for nothing. Next year, they lose the contracts of Pelfrey, Morneau, Blackburn, and Carrol. That's a significant amount of money that they SHOULD be spending somehow. Do I think they can land a top FA? No. But, they should try and add more international money somehow and actually SPEND IT next year. Ugh. I'm sick of Terry Ryan and the love he gets. In my opinion, he is overrated.

Not to be nitpicky but you are making a huge assumption that what was offered was a decent prospect.

diehardtwinsfan
08-11-2013, 07:09 AM
For one, they've spent about 3M from what I last read. Second, it was also recently noted that they were going to be announcing one or two more shortly. Third, unlike US college/HS rankings, BA rankings are much more suspect. It is quite possible I might add to get good talent internationally for very cheap. Lewis Thorp was 500k. If I remember right, Arcia was 80k.

Major Leauge Ready
08-11-2013, 07:16 AM
Not to be nitpicky but you are making a huge assumption that what was offered was a decent prospect.

It is also a leap to presume the reports were correct they would not eat any of Morneau's contract. Reporters jump to conclusions too. Maybe they would not eat any contract for a particular mediocre prospects that was offered. Perhaps the FO was posturing for a better propects who they were willing to eat salary to acquire.

As others have stated it is also way too soon to judge their international signings. Why would anyone assume they are not going to spend the money? Have the other teams spent all of their allotment in the first 6 weeks any other year? Maybe to more prudent question to ask is if it makes sense to drop most of their $4M pool on a couple of top 30 guys or spread it out. We are talking about 16 year old kids in a lot of cases.

Pitz
08-11-2013, 07:51 AM
For one, they've spent about 3M from what I last read. Second, it was also recently noted that they were going to be announcing one or two more shortly. Third, unlike US college/HS rankings, BA rankings are much more suspect. It is quite possible I might add to get good talent internationally for very cheap. Lewis Thorp was 500k. If I remember right, Arcia was 80k.

Just to add to this, Oscar Taveras and Gregory Polanco are a couple of other very highly touted prospects who did not receive huge signing bonuses. As long as the Twins use all of their allotted pool, I won't complain. Signing/ranking 16 year olds is much more of a crapshoot than even the draft. While it would be great to see them sign a few more of the highly ranked guys, I'm ok with using the money to sign a large quantity of guys.
If they don't use their allotment, then I will be very frustrated.

TheLeviathan
08-11-2013, 07:55 AM
Why would anyone assume they are not going to spend the money?

Lets not pretend there aren't reasons. Points like this help erupt another thread of payroll talk - there are PLENTY of valid reasons for tht assumption. Whether it turns out to be true or not remains to be seen.

IdahoPilgrim
08-11-2013, 08:08 AM
Lets not pretend there aren't reasons. Points like this help erupt another thread of payroll talk - there are PLENTY of valid reasons for tht assumption. Whether it turns out to be true or not remains to be seen.

I would respectfully suggest that if another payroll/front office strategy "debate" breaks out here it won't be because of the post to which you responded. The topic of the original post, with the additional comment on Morneau's contract, do that just fine on their own.

drjim
08-11-2013, 09:23 AM
I'll also echo a couple of other posters in that the only way I get upset on international spending is if they don't use the entire budget that was given them. They still have over 10 months to spend the approximately $1 mil they have left.

mike wants wins
08-11-2013, 10:15 AM
As for scouting, we can only go with the info we have.....I admitted that in the post.

Not everyone needs to feel the same, but I'd prefer they spend money on the top guys. Maybe I am wrong on that, maybe signing a bunch of guys for less money is a better strategy.

But clearly other teams that are spending money don't agree. So it's not like I'm some lunatic coming from nowhere. I have no issue with people disagreeing, frankly. I was just making an observation that it appears they are not going to be using that money on the top players this year, despite having an advantage over other teams. Maybe I should have typed it that way instead, to be more clear on my point.

TheLeviathan
08-11-2013, 11:36 AM
I would respectfully suggest that if another payroll/front office strategy "debate" breaks out here it won't be because of the post to which you responded. The topic of the original post, with the additional comment on Morneau's contract, do that just fine on their own.

If those statements aren't contradicted by someone there won't be a debate. One can remain an optimist without denying the very real reasons supplying the frustrations even if they may be mistaken in this instance.

PseudoSABR
08-11-2013, 11:48 AM
There simply is too much unknown about both the players and the process to get worked about this. Don't confuse headlines with results, guys.

Oxtung
08-11-2013, 11:49 AM
As for scouting, we can only go with the info we have.....I admitted that in the post.

Not everyone needs to feel the same, but I'd prefer they spend money on the top guys. Maybe I am wrong on that, maybe signing a bunch of guys for less money is a better strategy.

But clearly other teams that are spending money don't agree. So it's not like I'm some lunatic coming from nowhere. I have no issue with people disagreeing, frankly. I was just making an observation that it appears they are not going to be using that money on the top players this year, despite having an advantage over other teams. Maybe I should have typed it that way instead, to be more clear on my point.

You're still making the assumption that BA knows who those top guys are. IMO when it comes to the international market that isn't a given.

mike wants wins
08-11-2013, 12:05 PM
What other scouting should we look at, or is this topic one we should just not discuss.?

drjim
08-11-2013, 12:31 PM
What other scouting should we look at, or is this topic one we should just not discuss.?

I would still argue that the key thing to analyze is whether they spend their allotment or not. BA will even acknowledge themselves that their rankings don't correlate well with how bonuses are paid out.

old nurse
08-11-2013, 12:50 PM
At this point wouldn't it be better to scout the players a little more and wait until the last minute to sign some players? There should be a lot more season to assess talent.

Oxtung
08-11-2013, 01:10 PM
What other scouting should we look at, or is this topic one we should just not discuss.?

I think it is fair to discuss the scouting. I would add in other lists like Sanchez's over at MLB.com. However, IMO these lists shouldn't be taken as gospel. The international market seems to be much more nebulous than the rule 4 draft. As others have pointed out many of today's top international prospects didn't receive big bonuses.

I don't disagree with your assessment that the Twins should be going after some of the top players but your only reference point seems to be that BA list which is not infallible. I would suggest it would be more beneficial to have this discussion several years from now when we see just who was signed out of the international market. If all that the Twins have coming up are utility infielders and soft tossing-pitch-to-contact players you will have a stronger point.

Jim H
08-11-2013, 01:24 PM
The real question Mike, is not whether you should pay attention to BA's scouting reports, it is more why are you are assuming the Twins have screwed up? This clearly one of those areas where it will take years before anyone will be able to evaluate the signing made this year. Plus, this year's signing aren't completed yet. On top of that, clearly BA's list should be taken with a grain of salt. Given all that, just why do you jump in with a post lacking in very many specifics, and claim the Twins have screwed up?


It is fine to point out things where you believe the Twins have screwed up. But when you do this on a regular basis, as you seem to, I would prefer that it isn't just the usual whining, but something specific that you can point to. I realize this kind of information is not easy to come by and is still more of an opinion than a fact. Unfortunately too much of the criticism of the Twins(not neccesarily by you) is this kind of general bitching. It isn't specific and thus can't easily be refuted, but at the same time it provides no new information and is largely the same general theme "the Twins have money and need to spend more of it".

If you can point at specific international player the Twins should of targeted, I would be happy to read about that. If there is some information you have that shows specifically how the Twins have come up short in scouting or some other part of the international scene, I would be interested. I think though that the new rules have been put into place to level the field. I wouldn't be surprised if the aim is to spread the top "prospects" rather evenly among all thirty major league teams with the extra money to used to sign the next tier. Certainly some teams will try to circumvent those rules.

Largely, I agree with those posters who are suggesting that it is too early to complain about how the Twins handle the signing of international players.

Larsbars08
08-11-2013, 02:29 PM
With the international signings I feel like the relationships that team scouts have with the players and there trainers/parents/handlers are just as important as the actual money. I also think that teams are more dependent on the opinion of a limited amount of scouts. One thing I've liked about the Twins is that they've been willing to look outside of the DR. We have guys from Germany, Australia, and Taiwan.

mike wants wins
08-11-2013, 02:47 PM
Sure, I already said I would target less of them, and more of the top guys. You want a list of specific players, I'd say anyone on the top 30 across whatever scouting sites you want. You and I probably know less about them than those sites, or the Twins, so I'm using what resources I have.

Of course we can't actually judge what happened. But judging in hindsight is worthless, frankly. Anyone can go back and say, they should have done this or that. This entire board is speculating on when to call up a player, or what player to trade, or who to sign. No one is criticizing those posters for waiting 3 years before discussing the topic.

I've been pretty clear on who I want them to sign, I want them to sign more of the top players. Pick any site you can find on the internet, and see how they did against that. I have also acknowledged that it is reasonable to have the other strategy, sign a lot of guys like lottery tickets and see who sticks.

As for waiting until the signing period is done to discuss, does that mean we should not discuss who they sign in FA next year, or who they trade for, or who they promote or not, until the end of the year?

Oxtung
08-11-2013, 03:28 PM
Sure, I already said I would target less of them, and more of the top guys. You want a list of specific players, I'd say anyone on the top 30 across whatever scouting sites you want. You and I probably know less about them than those sites, or the Twins, so I'm using what resources I have.

Of course we can't actually judge what happened. But judging in hindsight is worthless, frankly. Anyone can go back and say, they should have done this or that. This entire board is speculating on when to call up a player, or what player to trade, or who to sign. No one is criticizing those posters for waiting 3 years before discussing the topic.

I've been pretty clear on who I want them to sign, I want them to sign more of the top players. Pick any site you can find on the internet, and see how they did against that. I have also acknowledged that it is reasonable to have the other strategy, sign a lot of guys like lottery tickets and see who sticks.

As for waiting until the signing period is done to discuss, does that mean we should not discuss who they sign in FA next year, or who they trade for, or who they promote or not, until the end of the year?

First let me say that I am not trying to pile on here Mike. I appreciate your point of view on many subjects. Often times we end up on the same side of the arguments. :)

Two points. First, I think there is much more information available for the Rule 4 draft, Rule 5 draft and the FA period (with a possible exception of international FA's) than for the international signing period. Do you agree with this?

Second, I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing the Twins approach to international signings during the process as long as we realize it is still an on going process. There is still time for the Twins to make a splash.

Here is a question. You seem to want the Twins to sign a high upside player. What if the Twins use the remainder of their money, I don't know how much they have left but let's just say $750k, to sign a player not on the BA list. Clearly that would be a player the Twins think has a chance to be very good. Would you be satisfied with that?

diehardtwinsfan
08-11-2013, 04:25 PM
Sure, I already said I would target less of them, and more of the top guys. You want a list of specific players, I'd say anyone on the top 30 across whatever scouting sites you want. You and I probably know less about them than those sites, or the Twins, so I'm using what resources I have.

Of course we can't actually judge what happened. But judging in hindsight is worthless, frankly. Anyone can go back and say, they should have done this or that. This entire board is speculating on when to call up a player, or what player to trade, or who to sign. No one is criticizing those posters for waiting 3 years before discussing the topic.

I've been pretty clear on who I want them to sign, I want them to sign more of the top players. Pick any site you can find on the internet, and see how they did against that. I have also acknowledged that it is reasonable to have the other strategy, sign a lot of guys like lottery tickets and see who sticks.

As for waiting until the signing period is done to discuss, does that mean we should not discuss who they sign in FA next year, or who they trade for, or who they promote or not, until the end of the year?

First, they did get one guy in the top 30. He was top 10 for that matter, and they were clearly infatuated with him b/c they went high enough to keep other bidders away... so take that for what it's worth.

I think you should be careful saying they should base their scouting on MLB.com's list or BA's list. That's a very poor way to run an organization... It just is, and if history is any indication, I'm just fine with them grabbing up the table scraps here. The international market, far more than the domestic market is quantity over quality. Just about all of these kids have high ceilings, but we are talking about 16 year old kids, not kids in the 18-22 range.

By the way, separate note, and not to your post, but I'd be really curious if someone had the time to look at compile some previous INTL classes and rank everyone in terms of bonus and see how they do. Obviously Cabrera and Sano were big bonus babies that everyone remembers, but then you have guys like Arcia who signed for peanuts in comparison.

mike wants wins
08-11-2013, 04:43 PM
The twins should not scout by reading BA.....no place did I say that. I said, we can pretty much only judge by the lists on line, given the limited information we have.

As for them signing a random guy for that money, since the only data u have is the lists in sites, I would fund it odd they would feel the need to spend that much money on a guy I would guess, given my limited data, they could sign for less.

I am well aware they signed a top 10 guy, I think I acknowledged that in the OP.

PseudoSABR
08-11-2013, 05:19 PM
Sure, I already said I would target less of them, and more of the top guys. You want a list of specific players, I'd say anyone on the top 30 across whatever scouting sites you want. You and I probably know less about them than those sites, or the Twins, so I'm using what resources I have.I'm not sure how you can continue to expect people to take you seriously when you answer this so glibly. The challenge is targeting specific players, the Twins have their own top 30 list, and it might look nothing like 'whatever scouting sites' we might prefer.

The notion that the Twins are purposedly screwing this up because they are cheap, or that they are being negligent, just seems off-base and ill-intended given the recent past. The signing period isn't even done yet (I believe).

birdwatcher
08-11-2013, 05:28 PM
For one, they've spent about 3M from what I last read. Second, it was also recently noted that they were going to be announcing one or two more shortly. Third, unlike US college/HS rankings, BA rankings are much more suspect. It is quite possible I might add to get good talent internationally for very cheap. Lewis Thorp was 500k. If I remember right, Arcia was 80k.

I'll add a fourth, in that they DID sign a BA "top 30" prospect, for what little that is worth. Someone who subcribes might be able to answer this question: which of the following were ranked by BA in their top 30 article?

Arcia, Santana, Ortiz, Pinto, Salcedo, Mejia, Vargas, Kepler, Polanco, Jorge, Randy Rosario, Landa, Thorpe, Gibson, Romero, Tapia...?

Arcia, Santana, Pinto, Vargas, Kepler, and Polanco have all been considered to be among the organization's top two dozen prospects, this in a top-ranked system.

Three others, Sano, Minier, and Silva WERE ranked highly by BA.

In short, the hand-wringing is premature for sure, and the recent track record is decent enough to instill some confidence that they are faring well. They may quite possibly be having some great luck now that everyone else seems to have spent their wad. We'll know a lot more in two years I guess.

Jim H
08-11-2013, 06:09 PM
Sure, I already said I would target less of them, and more of the top guys. You want a list of specific players, I'd say anyone on the top 30 across whatever scouting sites you want. You and I probably know less about them than those sites, or the Twins, so I'm using what resources I have.

Of course we can't actually judge what happened. But judging in hindsight is worthless, frankly. Anyone can go back and say, they should have done this or that. This entire board is speculating on when to call up a player, or what player to trade, or who to sign. No one is criticizing those posters for waiting 3 years before discussing the topic.

I've been pretty clear on who I want them to sign, I want them to sign more of the top players. Pick any site you can find on the internet, and see how they did against that. I have also acknowledged that it is reasonable to have the other strategy, sign a lot of guys like lottery tickets and see who sticks.

As for waiting until the signing period is done to discuss, does that mean we should not discuss who they sign in FA next year, or who they trade for, or who they promote or not, until the end of the year?

Mike, I might owe you an apology, I did not mean to get personal in my post, I suspect I was a bit mean.

The problem for me in this and many other posts is that it all seems to be a repeat of what has been said before. As I said, I would appreciate specifics rather than a general, "they need to sign top guys". What does that mean? Top guys according to who? Why should I care who BA has as the top ranked guys?

Here is one point of view. The Twins have been very active in the international market for many years. Most of those guys have not made any impact, but there is a pretty good list of those who have. More recently, say the last 5 years or maybe a bit longer, the Twins have been extremely busy internationally. They have been a large presence in Venzeula, Dominican Republic and Australia. They have signed prospects from Europe, Korea, Taiwan, South Africa and several other countries. The Twins seem to sign at least a dozen international guys every year. There could be as many 20 on the top 50 lists this winter. More importantly some of them will appear among the top 15 or so.

This seems to me to be a rather promising development. It doesn't mean that the Twins don't deserve criticism in the international arena, but it does mean they are doing some things right. Again, I am rather tired of the general complaining about how the Twins don't spend enough money. Be a bit more specific in your criticisms and I will try to appreciate your point of view a bit more.

mike wants wins
08-11-2013, 08:10 PM
Jim, did not take it personally at all. I am very comfortable with people making good arguments against my arguments. You never made any attack, IMO. I will just let the thread drop. I was hoping for more of a discussion around their approach, instead it turned into sides again. While my OP was not ideal, I reall wish more people on both sides could talk about their disagreements, and not about each other......not you, but others. I guess I am done with this thread.

Oh, the last thread I started was about the fangraphs write ups on some twins. And I keep typing how much I love Morneau. And I typed how happy I am that dozier is hitting better than I realized. And how I believe in Wimmers still. Some people here, though, only seem to notice my negative posts.......

Oxtung
08-11-2013, 11:42 PM
Mike, I might owe you an apology, I did not mean to get personal in my post, I suspect I was a bit mean.

The problem for me in this and many other posts is that it all seems to be a repeat of what has been said before. As I said, I would appreciate specifics rather than a general, "they need to sign top guys". What does that mean? Top guys according to who? Why should I care who BA has as the top ranked guys?

Here is one point of view. The Twins have been very active in the international market for many years. Most of those guys have not made any impact, but there is a pretty good list of those who have. More recently, say the last 5 years or maybe a bit longer, the Twins have been extremely busy internationally. They have been a large presence in Venzeula, Dominican Republic and Australia. They have signed prospects from Europe, Korea, Taiwan, South Africa and several other countries. The Twins seem to sign at least a dozen international guys every year. There could be as many 20 on the top 50 lists this winter. More importantly some of them will appear among the top 15 or so.

This seems to me to be a rather promising development. It doesn't mean that the Twins don't deserve criticism in the international arena, but it does mean they are doing some things right. Again, I am rather tired of the general complaining about how the Twins don't spend enough money. Be a bit more specific in your criticisms and I will try to appreciate your point of view a bit more.

A couple points. First, signing players from many countries does not mean that they are high upside talents. Only that the Twins are diverse in our countries of acquisition.

Second, who are the best three international talents that Ryan signed that have made the majors? The best I could find were Rincon, Mijares and Rivas. Wilson Ramos could become the best if he can ever get healthy and Arcia is worth watching. That is not an impressive list if that's it. I certainly see no reason to have faith that Mr. Ryan (and the Twins) are following Mike's preferred path.

Third, naming specific players is pointless. We have no idea who out of the top 30 the Twins like and who they might be willing to spend on. We also have no idea if their offers would be competitive let alone the top offer. I think Mike's fine in saying he wanted more high quality players signed without being specific. That leaves it up to the Twins to decide who and for how much.

kab21
08-12-2013, 12:09 AM
I wouldn't exactly use Ryan's track from more than a decade ago against him. They were basically operating with a zero int'l FA budget at the time. They weren't even signing the 500K guys (AFAIK) like Jorge, Thorpe, and Miguel Gonzalez at that time. Based on this thread getting 4-5 prospects from that group along with a top talent is seen as a disappointment.

clutterheart
08-12-2013, 12:09 AM
I will not be upset if the team doesn't find anyone to spend their money on. International scouting has brought an interesting mix of players to the MLB club and has given their farm system a huge boost. Its one thing the Twins have done well in for the last 7-8 years.
Below is some international FA the club has brought in. I think we can look at this list and actually have a little faith that in this one aspect, the club knows what it is doing:

Oswaldo Arcia
Liam Hendriks
Danny Santana
Miguel Sano
Josmil Pinto
Deibinson Romero
Randy Rosario
Max Kepler
Kuo Hua Lo
Felix Jorge
Yorman Landa
Javier Alberto Pimentel
Hein Robb
Chih-Wei Hu
Lewis Thorpe
German Minier

Some big names on this list.

Major Leauge Ready
08-12-2013, 09:15 AM
The debate here seems to come down to how to spend the International $$ pool we are allotted. One school of thought appears to be sign as many guys as possible of the top 30 prospects, defined by an aggregate of the various rankings. The other, and the one the twins seem to subscribe to, is sign one or two top guys and then spread the money out. The Twins have looked far and wide while signing alot of guys they obviously felt had potential but did not have the recognition of high profile prospects. These prospects have a much lower price tag and allow the twins to acquire many instead of banking on a very small number of 16 year old kids making it.

It would be really easy to just go out and bid whatever it takes to land 3 top 30 guys. I much prefer the twins approach. They have committed substantial resources to scouting all over the world. They sign some top prospects but also acquire a large number of other prospects. This is a much better business model IMO.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-12-2013, 09:33 AM
I'm not sure how you can continue to expect people to take you seriously when you answer this so glibly. The challenge is targeting specific players, the Twins have their own top 30 list, and it might look nothing like 'whatever scouting sites' we might prefer.

The notion that the Twins are purposedly screwing this up because they are cheap, or that they are being negligent, just seems off-base and ill-intended given the recent past. The signing period isn't even done yet (I believe).
The signing period doesn't end for another 10 months. In that case, isn't it wise to hold some money back, in case some diamond in the rough suddenly emerges out of nowhere?

mike wants wins
08-12-2013, 09:38 AM
Well stated, MLR, not sure I agree with the Twins, but you capture the debate well.

Oxtung
08-12-2013, 09:49 AM
I wouldn't exactly use Ryan's track from more than a decade ago against him. They were basically operating with a zero int'l FA budget at the time. They weren't even signing the 500K guys (AFAIK) like Jorge, Thorpe, and Miguel Gonzalez at that time. Based on this thread getting 4-5 prospects from that group along with a top talent is seen as a disappointment.

I agree he had limitations and I am not advocating holding his track record against him. On the other hand he has no track record so the "Have faith he knows what he's doing" argument holds no water either. I think there are legitimate reasons to question his approach.


The signing period doesn't end for another 10 months. In that case, isn't it wise to hold some money back, in case some diamond in the rough suddenly emerges out of nowhere?

I wonder if the "late bloomers" wouldn't just wait to sign until next summer when they could command a higher price. On the other hand most of these prospects come from extremely poor countries and tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars probably would be extremely tempting. Interesting dilemma.

Badsmerf
08-12-2013, 10:08 AM
If there is one area I wouldn't knock too hard, is the signing of INTL FA. The Twins have really stepped up their game since the Bill Smith era. Not every year is going to have a Sano available. Before judging the signings maybe wait a few years to see how things go? Arcia, Sano, Polanco, Minier, Jorge, Thorpe... those are all guys that could be a big part of the future signed in the last several years. That is a lot of talent.

drjim
08-12-2013, 10:20 AM
If there is one area I wouldn't knock too hard, is the signing of INTL FA. The Twins have really stepped up their game since the Bill Smith era. Not every year is going to have a Sano available. Before judging the signings maybe wait a few years to see how things go? Arcia, Sano, Polanco, Minier, Jorge, Thorpe... those are all guys that could be a big part of the future signed in the last several years. That is a lot of talent.

I would still argue Target Field era over Bill Smith era. Things changed in 2009.

I also appreciate the comparisons of Ryan of 10-12 years ago to now like nothing has changed.

birdwatcher
08-12-2013, 10:25 AM
The Scouting Department is a large and sophisticated operation. Both Terry Ryan and Bill Smith advocated for increased resources devoted to the international market. Terry Ryan put Bill Smith in charge of overseeing some of the improvements in the international area. Other than this managemant role, the GM, I believe, has much much less to do with the end results than people think. And even if the scouts find the talent, the Development staff has to do its job, for which the GM deserves only a small share of the credit or blame. Terry Ryan just isn't all that consequential in the whole scheme of things in my view.

old nurse
08-12-2013, 11:39 AM
Top 30 prospect lists are nice. They are no indication of how the talent will develop. Look at how hard it is to get 18-23 year olds right. The 2003mlb draft had 37 first rounders including comp picks . 10 years later only 5 have accumulated a war of 15 by baseball reference numbers. 10 have not seen the majors, 10 have not accumulated a war of 2. The 2003 draft had 42 picks by the A's. 4 of them have made it to the majors. The only player above a WAR level of 2 was traded for Milton Bradley in a steal for the Dodgers. Tampa Bay had 50 selections with John Jaso being the best player by WAR. 9 other players were all less than 2 WAR level players. The Rays had one other player of note that draft. They did get the most out of Delmon Young.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-12-2013, 11:46 AM
With 16-18 year old "kids" which is what they are, I imagine that top "lists" change pretty rapididly. Obviously the top handful of guys (1-10) are very widely regarded etc and seperation in abilities is obvious, but I am guessing that the majority of the guys in the 20-200 range could be changed on nearly a weekly basis potentially. So my main message is: Keep Calm and trust in the Twins when it comes to this.

I do like how people ignore the Twins past successes or brush them off as luck (Sano etc) while continuing this silly crusade about the Twins being cheap.

AROG
08-12-2013, 12:21 PM
Disclaimer:
I have a friend that is a scout for the Astros, and most of this is based on what he has shared with me, and he would like to remain nameless so if you don't believe it I understand but his job is more important that our posts. Also, it is based on guys signed at 18 years of age and under.

My friend has told me that there are four teams that lead the way when it comes to international FA signings, they all have different views. By leading the way he means that those teams have either more scouts or scouts that spend more time in the field.

The Astros, Twins, Cardinals and Yankees. The Astros and the Cardinals like the balanced approach. One or two very highly sought after guys for large $'s followed by a few cheaper options that they like and have major upsides but could fall flat on their faces in a year or two. The Yankees try to get as many top $ signings as they can and get out. The Twins will maybe go after one to two highly sought after guys but only if they feel that everyone else is missing on him, they don't like bidding wars. He said that they will generally go after a few cheap options that have lower upsides but lower ceilings and some high upsides that the Astros and Cardinals will get into bidding wars over and sign them away.

He says that the high $ guys are generally accepted as 1-in-10 odds of making the majors and the the Hi-Lo guys as a 1-in-50 chance and the Lo-Hi guys as a 1-20.

I think Mike is just pointing out that he would like to spend more money on the better odds players that make a splash. The overall odds work better with the Astros and Cardinals for All-Star type players but he said the Twins odds are the best at getting big leaguers with an occasional All-Star mixed in.

IMO I like what the Asros and Cardinals are doing with mixing the highest level of upside guys and not looking for anyone who is major league average but that is me.

mike wants wins
08-12-2013, 12:29 PM
Great post AROG, and yes, that's what I'm saying. I have no doubt they'll spend all the money.

ashburyjohn
08-12-2013, 12:53 PM
Great insight, arog. I don't know whether your friend's analysis carries up through the chain of command, but it's about one step removed from an Expectation Value bang-for-the-buck approach to the multitude of possible signings.

Rosterman
08-12-2013, 01:00 PM
My biggest gripe with the Twins, at times, is that but budget the money to spend, but if you don't spend it, what happens to it. Is it carried over to the next or future seasons (doubtful). DO people get a bonus if they don't spend? I also don't believe in totally throwing away money, but every season in this sport -- as in any franchise sport -- you do allocate a certain amount of dollars to gamble, win or lose. Actually, the whole payroll is a gamble. Is spending $5 million on a prospect (which they do in the first round) any worse than carrying a Joe Mays or Nick Blackburn on your roster...mistakes, but you you absorb them. This is a game in which you can never have too many bodies or talents.

I do wince when the Twins sign many many minor league free agents, like they have the last two years, looking for that diamond in the rough. How many made it out of spring training, didn't play at all, or were just bad...as bad as overpushing a prospect to a higher level.

The big question always is: what happens to the money budgeted but not spent. And the Twins do a good job of trying to figure out next year's budget...even if attendance and concessions and everything tanks.

drjim
08-12-2013, 04:24 PM
I would like a little more of a mix of upside guys, but I generally would subscribe to the thought process that the younger the talent the more sense it makes to spread out risk. That is, in the international market I like more mid-tier signings while major league free agency I would want to consolidate value in fewer signings.

mike wants wins
08-12-2013, 04:27 PM
I would like a little more of a mix of upside guys, but I generally would subscribe to the thought process that the younger the talent the more sense it makes to spread out risk. That is, in the international market I like more mid-tier signings while major league free agency I would want to consolidate value in fewer signings.

Sound logic, frankly. Not certain I agree, but there is a strong argument to be made you are right. I don't know, for the top guys, how well the scouts "know" they are the top guys.....

ThePuck
08-12-2013, 04:37 PM
I would like a little more of a mix of upside guys, but I generally would subscribe to the thought process that the younger the talent the more sense it makes to spread out risk. That is, in the international market I like more mid-tier signings while major league free agency I would want to consolidate value in fewer signings.

So you were firmly against the Sano signing.

ThePuck
08-12-2013, 04:39 PM
Sound logic, frankly. Not certain I agree, but there is a strong argument to be made you are right. I don't know, for the top guys, how well the scouts "know" they are the top guys.....

Most of the top prospect guys are DR players and there are prospects camps in the DR. The scouts get their info there.

drjim
08-12-2013, 04:45 PM
So you were firmly against the Sano signing.

No. A top tier guy or two each class is assumed, especially when underpriced.

ThePuck
08-12-2013, 04:47 PM
No. A top tier guy or two each class is assumed, especially when underpriced.

We paid 3.1 million for him. That's more than our allotted amount for this year isn't it? In any event, you said it's better to spread out risk with these young international signings by getting more mid-tier guys while going for less quantity and more quality in normal free agency. Getting Sano certainly didn't fall under that premise.

birdwatcher
08-12-2013, 04:51 PM
AROG, thanks for the illuminating post. But I'm finding it hard to believe that the industry regards the Twins as being in elite company-one of four-who devote more resources to the international market. I guess what makes me most skeptical is my perception of the Twins' relative presence in the Dominican Republic, the source of more players than any other foreign market. From admittedly a paltry amount of information, I would classify the Twins' Dominican operation as not much better than average.

Sure wish the mainstream guys would ask these questions for us.

drjim
08-12-2013, 04:55 PM
We paid 3.1 million for him. That's more than our allotted amount for this year isn't it? In any event, you said it's better to spread out risk with these young international signings by getting more mid-tier guys while going for less quantity and more quality in normal free agency. Getting Sano certainly didn't fall under that premise.

Sano indeed busted the budget and Pohlad approved extra money.

He was also the highest regarded prospect since Miguel so he was underpriced because of the circumstances. It probably is counter to my usual plan but it was a unique circumstance.

drjim
08-12-2013, 04:59 PM
AROG, thanks for the illuminating post. But I'm finding it hard to believe that the industry regards the Twins as being in elite company-one of four-who devote more resources to the international market. I guess what makes me most skeptical is my perception of the Twins' relative presence in the Dominican Republican, the source of more players than any other foreign market. From admittedly a paltry amount of information, I would classify the Twins' Dominican operation as not much better than average.

Sure wish the mainstream guys would ask these questions for us.

This information is out there if you search for it. The Twins look "average" in the DR because they were a little late there with resources and don't throw money around haphazardly. Twind are leaders in Australia and Europe and strong in other regions.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
08-12-2013, 05:00 PM
I'm completely ok with what the Twins are doing. I think the Twins scouting department is much better than BA's and the rankings for both are likely much different. If a player is top 30 on BA and the Twins don't like what they see, they clearly shouldn't sign him. Why should they spend money on players they don't like? Minnesota has been fairly successful the past few years with international prospects and I think they should continue what they are doing. Bill Smith deserves a lot of credit for that. Although, I've begun to sour on Terry Ryan and I'm unsure if the Twins will be as good in this area in the coming years.

birdwatcher
08-12-2013, 05:07 PM
Bill Smith deserves a modicum of credit for the organization's international success, and certainly far less credit than Terry Ryan, who deserves perhaps 10% of the credit that people commenting here never give to Howard Norsetter, to name one international scout.

drjim
08-12-2013, 05:09 PM
Another thing to consider for BA scouting reports is that they obviously don't do it themselves. They gather information from sources with agendas. It is a much shadier market than say the Rule 4.

AROG
08-12-2013, 05:26 PM
AROG, thanks for the illuminating post. But I'm finding it hard to believe that the industry regards the Twins as being in elite company-one of four-who devote more resources to the international market. I guess what makes me most skeptical is my perception of the Twins' relative presence in the Dominican Republic, the source of more players than any other foreign market. From admittedly a paltry amount of information, I would classify the Twins' Dominican operation as not much better than average.

Sure wish the mainstream guys would ask these questions for us.

To go along with drjim, it's not that the Twins were necessarily late to the DR, it's more so the value of the players there. The DR has a population of 10 million, which is like saying that everyone is scouting Georgia (pop. 10 million), because it is the easiest and cheapest to scout but would leave California and Texas and Florida alone. The last few HS players taken the last few years are from Georgia so it must be where all the talent is. Fist and foremost, baseball is a company that is a for profit organization. Since the Twins aren't philosophically going to get into bidding wars unless they are completely sold on the player and that would happen if they kept themselves mainly in the DR like other teams, ie Sano, Buxton, Stewart (which they drafted high knowing they would have to spend a ton just to sign them).

I understand your skepticism. I have business owners everyday tell me they can't find good employees and think the only way to do it is to pay more for them. In actuality, it is a recruiting problem, they are trying to find someone like themselves to fill a void and relying on hiring out of the same pool of people as everyone else. If you want the best employee you need to find them in different places.

diehardtwinsfan
08-12-2013, 07:19 PM
We paid 3.1 million for him. That's more than our allotted amount for this year isn't it? In any event, you said it's better to spread out risk with these young international signings by getting more mid-tier guys while going for less quantity and more quality in normal free agency. Getting Sano certainly didn't fall under that premise.

Nope, this year was 4M...

Thrylos
08-12-2013, 07:31 PM
The signing period doesn't end for another 10 months. In that case, isn't it wise to hold some money back, in case some diamond in the rough suddenly emerges out of nowhere?


This.
Plus another simple practical reason: Several 15 year olds will be 16 within that 10 month period and can sign then, but cannot sign now...

nicksaviking
08-12-2013, 07:39 PM
I understand your skepticism. I have business owners everyday tell me they can't find good employees and think the only way to do it is to pay more for them. In actuality, it is a recruiting problem, they are trying to find someone like themselves to fill a void and relying on hiring out of the same pool of people as everyone else. If you want the best employee you need to find them in different places.

I understand the analogy in regards to scouting from many regions, but if that bell is ringing from the Twins, it rings a bit hollow considering the reference taken literally is the exact opposite of the Twins philosophy. When hiring and promoting, they do not look in other areas but instead set their gaze within the organization to fill a void with someone who actually is of exctly the same mind as those in charge.

The Twins likely do scout Australia better than any other team and are strong in Europe and Venezuala, but I'd trade dominance in two of those regions for a strong presence in the DR because population aside, that's where a vast majority of the talent is.

It's nice to be a pioneer and plant a flag down under, but when you consider that the best player from that continet is a contest between Dave Nilsson and Grant Balfour, who have a combined two All-Star game appearneces between them, I'd rather bank on the more productive nation, even if it means battling with other clubs. I think Ryan's passiveness and aversion to going to go toe-to-toe with other GM's is a pretty big issue.

Jim H
08-12-2013, 07:45 PM
This has turned into a very good thread. Thank you all who presented some interesting ideas. Especially I appreciate AROG thoughts about the Astros and what they preceive the Twins to be doing. I hope at some point the people here at this site can get someone from the Twins international department to explain their philosophy in the international market. It might be quite different from what the Astros seem to think it is.

It seems that what the Twins have been doing internationally is working, although with the rules changing it is hard to say if it will continue to work. The Twins work in Europe and Australia seems to reflect their philosphy of finding toolsy kids who need to be coached up. It might make more sense than overpaying for the DR kids that every team is after. In any case I appreciate most of the thoughts expressed on this thread.

ThePuck
08-12-2013, 08:33 PM
Nope, this year was 4M...

appreciate the correction...that's why I asked. The attached top article says 3,208,600. The one below it says 3.9. How did it go up?


Allotment for international signings vital to clubs | MLB.com: News


(http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130430&content_id=46192310&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb)The Twins have $3.9 million to spend on international free agents this year, and the $1.4 million for Diaz takes up a large chunk of that, but the Twins are expected to be active in the international market, according to general manager Terry Ryan.
"We'll be active everywhere internationally -- in the Dominican, Venezuela, Europe, Australia, Asia," Ryan said. "Every team has money earmarked for international signings, and we hope to spend it all. It won't just be one guy. It'll be a bunch."

(http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130430&content_id=46192310&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb)

AROG
08-12-2013, 10:24 PM
I understand the analogy in regards to scouting from many regions, but if that bell is ringing from the Twins, it rings a bit hollow considering the reference taken literally is the exact opposite of the Twins philosophy. When hiring and promoting, they do not look in other areas but instead set their gaze within the organization to fill a void with someone who actually is of exctly the same mind as those in charge.

The Twins likely do scout Australia better than any other team and are strong in Europe and Venezuala, but I'd trade dominance in two of those regions for a strong presence in the DR because population aside, that's where a vast majority of the talent is.

It's nice to be a pioneer and plant a flag down under, but when you consider that the best player from that continet is a contest between Dave Nilsson and Grant Balfour, who have a combined two All-Star game appearneces between them, I'd rather bank on the more productive nation, even if it means battling with other clubs. I think Ryan's passiveness and aversion to going to go toe-to-toe with other GM's is a pretty big issue.

debating this point seems useless at this point. There is a lot of data available from Forbes to MLB.com about the player development in all the places. I encourage you to look up the data on your own and draw your conclusions from there.

Oxtung
08-13-2013, 01:47 AM
Many of you are claiming the Twins have done a nice job with the international market the last few years, and you might turn out to be right, but at this point I think it is a bit early to judge. So far the prospects have a grand total of 267 PA in the majors. I think the same point applies to this years international acquisitions, nothing really will be known about them for several years. Having a highly ranked farm system can give us hope but in the end what matters is what makes it to the majors and succeeds.

old nurse
08-13-2013, 07:44 AM
Many of you are claiming the Twins have done a nice job with the international market the last few years, and you might turn out to be right, but at this point I think it is a bit early to judge. So far the prospects have a grand total of 267 PA in the majors. I think the same point applies to this years international acquisitions, nothing really will be known about them for several years. Having a highly ranked farm system can give us hope but in the end what matters is what makes it to the majors and succeeds.

If one can't praise the recent signings then you should also chastise those that rip also. If it is to early to tell success, it is to early to lament failure.

diehardtwinsfan
08-13-2013, 08:10 AM
appreciate the correction...that's why I asked. The attached top article says 3,208,600. The one below it says 3.9. How did it go up?


Allotment for international signings vital to clubs | MLB.com: News


(http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130430&content_id=46192310&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb)The Twins have $3.9 million to spend on international free agents this year, and the $1.4 million for Diaz takes up a large chunk of that, but the Twins are expected to be active in the international market, according to general manager Terry Ryan.
"We'll be active everywhere internationally -- in the Dominican, Venezuela, Europe, Australia, Asia," Ryan said. "Every team has money earmarked for international signings, and we hope to spend it all. It won't just be one guy. It'll be a bunch."

(http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130430&content_id=46192310&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb)

It was always 3.9. I believe they've spent around 3.1, but I could be wrong on that. The dollar amount is assigned based on a "slot" so to speak. The slot is based on how they did last year.

Oxtung
08-13-2013, 10:40 PM
If one can't praise the recent signings then you should also chastise those that rip also. If it is to early to tell success, it is to early to lament failure.

Let me direct you to this post. (http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally.html#post150392)

And this post. (http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally-2.html#post150483)

How about this post (http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally-2.html#post150599)?

One more?
(http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally-2.html#post150453)

My argument all along has been we know very little about the international prospects. Certainly not enough to judge anything at this point. Good or bad. The same goes for Ryan. He has no history suggesting we should just trust that he will get things right. On the other hand he hasn't had the opportunity or budget to either. So again, we must wait a few years before we really know anything.

ThePuck
08-13-2013, 11:18 PM
It was always 3.9. I believe they've spent around 3.1, but I could be wrong on that. The dollar amount is assigned based on a "slot" so to speak. The slot is based on how they did last year.

The link that I posted said 3,208,600 though...so I asked. Apparently the article was wrong.

Major Leauge Ready
08-14-2013, 08:55 AM
I understand the analogy in regards to scouting from many regions, but if that bell is ringing from the Twins, it rings a bit hollow considering the reference taken literally is the exact opposite of the Twins philosophy. When hiring and promoting, they do not look in other areas but instead set their gaze within the organization to fill a void with someone who actually is of exctly the same mind as those in charge.

The Twins likely do scout Australia better than any other team and are strong in Europe and Venezuala, but I'd trade dominance in two of those regions for a strong presence in the DR because population aside, that's where a vast majority of the talent is.

It's nice to be a pioneer and plant a flag down under, but when you consider that the best player from that continet is a contest between Dave Nilsson and Grant Balfour, who have a combined two All-Star game appearneces between them, I'd rather bank on the more productive nation, even if it means battling with other clubs. I think Ryan's passiveness and aversion to going to go toe-to-toe with other GM's is a pretty big issue.

Promoting from within and scouting multiple regions of the world are two completely separate functions/strategies. One has virtually nothing to do with the other.

I can appreciate the Twins loyalty and hiring from within and there are some benefits to that philosophy. Personally, I make sure employees have every opportunity to improve their skillsets and advance. However, you have to believe the organization would benefit from aggressively recruiting the very best from other organizations. I would love to see the Twins go hard after FO / scouting personnel from the Rays, As and Cardinals.

birdwatcher
08-14-2013, 09:20 AM
Let me direct you to this post. (http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally.html#post150392)

And this post. (http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally-2.html#post150483)

How about this post (http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally-2.html#post150599)?

One more?
(http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/8312-twins-do-not-sign-much-internationally-2.html#post150453)

My argument all along has been we know very little about the international prospects. Certainly not enough to judge anything at this point. Good or bad. The same goes for Ryan. He has no history suggesting we should just trust that he will get things right. On the other hand he hasn't had the opportunity or budget to either. So again, we must wait a few years before we really know anything.

Oxtung, I am one of tose willing to trust them based on the current evidence. But I agree 100% with you that until we see more results at the MLB level, it's too early to judge the organization's track record relative to their competors. Old Nurse's point is well taken in that it's too early for both praise AND criticism. Pointing to the current evidence (like Arcia Polanco, Kepler et al) to refute the criticism has substance, especially compared to citing the fact that they "only" got one guy off BA's list and ignoring that they got two guys last year off the same list.

Lastly, MLB appears to be seeking more equal distribution of talent. That would imply that all 30 teams would "only" get one player off BA's list, making the silly assumption that BA's list deserves a huge amount of credibility.

nicksaviking
08-23-2013, 08:22 AM
Jim Callis says the Rangers and Cubs will only face minor penalties for exceeding their international spending cap. It sounds like they found some kind of loophole. It's behind BA's paywall, does anyone have any more information about this? The rules seemed pretty clear, they should not be able to spend more than 500K next year.

I really hope this is still the case and Callis just thinks the restriction is a minor penalty.

old nurse
08-23-2013, 09:08 AM
Jim Callis says the Rangers and Cubs will only face minor penalties for exceeding their international spending cap. It sounds like they found some kind of loophole. It's behind BA's paywall, does anyone have any more information about this? The rules seemed pretty clear, they should not be able to spend more than 500K next year.

I really hope this is still the case and Callis just thinks the restriction is a minor penalty.

While it may be difficult to sign players next year, they can trade slots for prospects. Their pool money doesn't go away. They can sign as many players as they can for 250K, as they may have blown the budget by more than 15%. They can still trade players for this year's money (wouldn't Levi love a Arrietta for Twin's remaining international money trade). Do you think Cuellar and Anderson can fix Arrietta's command issues?

TheLeviathan
08-23-2013, 09:54 AM
They can still trade players for this year's money (wouldn't Levi love a Arrietta for Twin's remaining international money trade). Do you think Cuellar and Anderson can fix Arrietta's command issues?

Considering 2 of the 3 starts Arrietta has had for the Cubs have been very promising (and one very big clunker) - I'd still say they did pretty well for themselves. A player with even a little bit of promise is worth more than nothing.

I don't see fit to keep bringing him up, I'm not sure why you insist on it. I know if I compared a former opening day starter and team top 10 prospect to Pedro Hernandez, I'd probably appreciate any opportunities to avoid that conversation.

nicksaviking
08-23-2013, 10:50 AM
While it may be difficult to sign players next year, they can trade slots for prospects. Their pool money doesn't go away. They can sign as many players as they can for 250K, as they may have blown the budget by more than 15%. They can still trade players for this year's money (wouldn't Levi love a Arrietta for Twin's remaining international money trade). Do you think Cuellar and Anderson can fix Arrietta's command issues?

Did you read the article? Because the tease made it sound as if they would not incur any substantial penalties. I think most teams would consider not being able to top 250k for an individual player quite a sacrafice.

Everyone assumed the Cubs and Rangers liked this free agent class so they decided to go all in despite the hinderence next year. I'm just wondering if for some reason there is less of a penalty than we assumed. Again it is behind the paywall.

Vervehound
08-23-2013, 11:12 AM
Did you read the article? Because the tease made it sound as if they would not incur any substantial penalties. I think most teams would consider not being able to top 250k for an individual player quite a sacrafice.

Everyone assumed the Cubs and Rangers liked this free agent class so they decided to go all in despite the hinderence next year. I'm just wondering if for some reason there is less of a penalty than we assumed. Again it is behind the paywall.

it's just a re-hash of how they were all-in this year because they anticipated the pool being much deeper. also raises the question that they'll have a $4 million pool next year with a cap of $250k/player so they're thinking they may trade their space the other way.

Oxtung
08-23-2013, 10:09 PM
it's just a re-hash of how they were all-in this year because they anticipated the pool being much deeper. also raises the question that they'll have a $4 million pool next year with a cap of $250k/player so they're thinking they may trade their space the other way.

If it works out that they can way over spend this year acquiring many good/great prospects AND trade their full allotment of millions of dollars next season for other prospects......genius.

kab21
08-24-2013, 12:10 AM
There are several loopholes that can explain why the Cubs/Rangers did what they did. And maybe some others.

1st - Once you have started incurring penalties then you might as well break the soft cap by as much as possible since the penalties don't get worse as you spend more. IIRC the Cubs signed two top 30 talents after they had spent their allotted money.

2nd - you don't lose your cap space the following season so they can trade it away.

3rd - The penalties only affect one season. So the Cubs probably signed as many prospects in one year as they would have if they in 2 normal years. Those prospects will also be one year closer to the majors since it takes int'l 16 yr old a long time to make it.

old nurse
08-24-2013, 05:54 AM
Did you read the article? Because the tease made it sound as if they would not incur any substantial penalties. I think most teams would consider not being able to top 250k for an individual player quite a sacrafice.

Everyone assumed the Cubs and Rangers liked this free agent class so they decided to go all in despite the hinderence next year. I'm just wondering if for some reason there is less of a penalty than we assumed. Again it is behind the paywall.

No, I did not go behind the paywall.
1. Story teases are teases to get you to buy. The rules are out there and known. A couple of different stories had mentioned that the Cubs were enamored with this year's class of prospects.
2. Penalties that involve a fine are not restrictive to the Cubs.
3. If there was something earth shattering out there another site would have picked up on it by now.

old nurse
08-24-2013, 08:58 AM
Considering 2 of the 3 starts Arrietta has had for the Cubs have been very promising (and one very big clunker) - I'd still say they did pretty well for themselves. A player with even a little bit of promise is worth more than nothing.

I don't see fit to keep bringing him up, I'm not sure why you insist on it. I know if I compared a former opening day starter and team top 10 prospect to Pedro Hernandez, I'd probably appreciate any opportunities to avoid that conversation.

If the Cubs were looking to trade for international pool money from the Twins Arrietta would be preferable to the soft tossing lefthander Russin. Earlier comenters on Morneau thought that Ryan was looking for near major league ready players. The Cubs lack that in the pitching department, hence those that have shuttled between Iowa and the Cubs.