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Twins Fan From Afar
08-07-2013, 09:49 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2196-The-Miguel-Sano-Quandry

John Bonnes
08-07-2013, 10:07 PM
I'd say this: if you think there is a chance you're going to have him be on the roster on Opening Day - any chance at all - then call him up and see what you see. I wish they had done that with Hicks.

troyhobbs
08-07-2013, 10:43 PM
Give him a Sept call up and start him at AAA next year until he's ready. I don't care if he learns humility so long as he hits bombs. Despite Arcia's struggles he's still arguably been the 2nd best hitter on the team so I have no problem with his early call up this year.

CGNikolic
08-07-2013, 11:00 PM
I know he is a top prospect, but he is just a 20 year old kid hitting .243. While his OPS shows that he is not being over matched at AA, he really is not exactly "tearing the cover off the ball". Is it really worthwhile for the Twins to call him up this September to get him acclimated with being in the big leagues, which he may not be prepared for until 2015 (when he will only just be turning 22 years old by the way)? I say let him finish out the year in AA, then start him next year in AAA and unless he is playing horrible, he will debut by the time 2014 September call-ups come around, and possibly stay up for good. The Twins have already had problems with this player's attitude, would promoting him from AA to the big leagues and then proceeding to send him back down next spring just cause more issues?

Brandon
08-07-2013, 11:09 PM
He doesn't need to go on the 40 man roster this winter so there is absolutely no reason to call him up but AAA is in a pennant race right now while New Britain is not. the Questions should be should we let Sano go up to AAA to finish out their season and play in their playoffs assuming they make it or stay in AA?

Check out my blog post on this from this morning in the blog section.

Kwak
08-07-2013, 11:12 PM
The Twins are going to have to adjust to a different mindset. Arcia and Sano have their own agendas--they aren't going to be Mauer clones! Promoting Sano this season is simply enabling him. This season is in the toilet and "the new wave" won't save it. Invite Sano to Spring training (non-roster) and then assign him to Rochester. Force him to prove himself at AAA before promoting him--and at the very least hold him back to gain the extra year of control. Sano won't make the difference between making/not-making the playoffs in 2014.

Mave
08-08-2013, 12:04 AM
.361/.489/.778(!) for an OPS of... 1.267(!!!) in his last ten games. During this stretch, he has 9 Ks and 8 BB... I would take that for a prodigious power hitter, who generally tend to just strike out more, any day...not to mention a 20 year old with as much power potential as anyone in baseball.

Perhaps we can overlook his first dozen games at AA, where inevitably he was going to struggle seeing as he did make one of the more difficult jumps a ball player can make (as mentioned above), and look at what he is doing recently.

I'd say give the kid a shot come September. Where should we set the Over/Under for how quickly would Target Field sell out upon hearing the news that he was called up? 30 minutes? 45 minutes? 1 hour?

jokin
08-08-2013, 12:40 AM
I know he is a top prospect, but he is just a 20 year old kid hitting .243. While his OPS shows that he is not being over matched at AA, he really is not exactly "tearing the cover off the ball". Is it really worthwhile for the Twins to call him up this September to get him acclimated with being in the big leagues, which he may not be prepared for until 2015 (when he will only just be turning 22 years old by the way)? I say let him finish out the year in AA, then start him next year in AAA and unless he is playing horrible, he will debut by the time 2014 September call-ups come around, and possibly stay up for good. The Twins have already had problems with this player's attitude, would promoting him from AA to the big leagues and then proceeding to send him back down next spring just cause more issues?

Uhhh.... two days in a row, and two very young stars spent an unacceptably long time admiring their home run shots, and were summarily "rewarded" for their "transgression" an AB or two later with plunkings. I refer of course to Bryce Harper and J-Upton. These sorts of "attitude problems" have ways of getting themselves sorted out through the MLB system of justice. Considering what transpired in those 2 situations, I'm not too concerned with promoting Sano sooner rather than later.....Truth be told.... with Twins management confirming that Sano's defense is no longer an issue, Sano has little left to improve upon facing minor league pitchers.

Do you still have doubts? Here's further evidence- although Sano's AA BA is abnormally low, there really is very little to be concerned about. For example- if Sano qualified among the Eastern League statistical leaders, his SLG of .559 would lead the League. His OPS of .914 would be 3rd in the League.

Furthermore, Sano's BB% is better in the EL than in Class A+ (13.8% vs. 11.9%), while his K% is only !% worse in AA over A+. His Isolated Power rate is nearly identical (.321 vs .325).

The one stat that stands out is mostly luck-related. His BABIP at New Britain is only .267, which is way, way below his normal minor league BABIP production number, which has been anywhere between .307 and .422 (it was .397 at Ft Myers this year). I think you'll find that once that BABIP inevitably normalizes (maybe not enough PAs left in this season), Sano's production will look pretty similar to previous seasons. Remember he has 11 HR in 168 PAs at New Britain, and 16 HRs in 243 PAs at Ft Myers, almost the identical rate of HR production per PA.

Bottom line, Sano will be fine.....believe in Ryan when he says how much he thinks of Miguel as a human being- the club needs to turn the page and get an infusion of his type of youthful energization in turning this moribund franchise around. I appreciated Deduno's frustrated passion in the dugout last night. Let's get more of that, not less. Get him up here in September, and get him positioned for a fast track to full-time at 3B at some point early on in 2014.

CGNikolic
08-08-2013, 01:05 AM
You have caught me not looking at the advanced statistics of Sano's production.. Well played Mauer. But I feel that the stats and your points prove that Sano is ready to move a level then, but preferably only to AAA. I'd like to see him join AAA soon actually and (as mentioned before in this thread I believe) help Rochester get a playoff berth and experience a playoff push all this fall, then start in Rochester next spring and move up to the big leagues at some point next year when the Twins feel his all around game is ready. I want to see him up here as soon as possible too don't get me wrong, I just don't want to experience another Hicks fiasco (who had also been doing pretty well at AA). And I'm not worried about his attitude, I'm saying that in regards to the Twins and how they seem to be dealing with it.. I think we'd all like to see more emotion and intensity and enthusiasm from this slower than molasses group of players.. But the main question is what do the Twins want? And how will they handle a personality such as Sano when they get a chance to witness it everyday?

raindog
08-08-2013, 05:47 AM
The Omen.

Thrylos
08-08-2013, 07:32 AM
should we let Sano go up to AAA to finish out their season and play in their playoffs assuming they make it or stay in AA?
.

This. Get the kid away from Jeff Smith and the Mitchell Report cheat hitting coach and let him help Rochester win. Then invite him to ST as a non-roster invitee and see whether he will win a job.

JB_Iowa
08-08-2013, 07:50 AM
My reaction is mixed ... I'd love to see him just to have something of interest to watch in September. I also get the maturity issue and the 40-man issue (although given some of the dreck we have on there, I don't know if it matters that much).

But I have one other reaction: I'm really hoping for a "changing of the guard" in the managerial position after the season. I have some niggling feeling that it might be better to wait on some of the "kids" until after that happens so they all just have a fresh start.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-08-2013, 07:51 AM
As much as I would like to see him in sept I don't think it's a good idea, I don't see a whole lotta good that comes out of it. If he struggles then who knows, if he does well, then you have to start him next year in the majors and burn a year of team control. Keep him in AA the rest of the year, start him in AAA next year and call him up in June

nicksaviking
08-08-2013, 08:16 AM
He doesn't need to go on the 40 man roster this winter so there is absolutely no reason to call him up but AAA is in a pennant race right now while New Britain is not. the Questions should be should we let Sano go up to AAA to finish out their season and play in their playoffs assuming they make it or stay in AA?

Check out my blog post on this from this morning in the blog section.

Agreed. The secret third option seems most prudent. Ignore the average, as pointed out above it has been just fine since he put his opening two week jitters behind him. Taking two weeks to adjust to AA pitching is another reason not to bring him to the majors just yet. This NB team is the first unsuccessful team Sano and Rosario have played on, get them in the playoffs in Rochester and drill into their skulls that they are winners. I don't know that that attitude is prelevant with the big club.

ericchri
08-08-2013, 08:19 AM
I'm dying for something of interest to watch with the Twins right now. I also think fan interest would spike a good bit if they moved him up. But I think I agree with those saying that starting his service time now probably doesn't make a lot of sense.

Moving him to AAA does seem like a good proposition, though. Having him already getting time at AAA would make it pretty obvious he's probably playing with the big league team at some point next year, so maybe that's enough of a marketing boost to help sell a few season tickets. It would be a shame for Deibinson Romero who's having a pretty good season, but it's hard to see much hope for Romero having much of a place in the team's future.

mike wants wins
08-08-2013, 08:31 AM
Agree with Bonnes, if you think he might be on your roster next April, bring him up in September.

Mr. Ed
08-08-2013, 08:37 AM
I'd say this: if you think there is a chance you're going to have him be on the roster on Opening Day - any chance at all - then call him up and see what you see. I wish they had done that with Hicks.


Absolutely on both points.

Last year they gave at bats to some guy who was never going to stick with the team,as a badge of service. They should have had Arcia/Hicks up at that point,and the other in September getting at bats.

jokin
08-08-2013, 09:06 AM
I'm dying for something of interest to watch with the Twins right now. I also think fan interest would spike a good bit if they moved him up. But I think I agree with those saying that starting his service time now probably doesn't make a lot of sense.

Moving him to AAA does seem like a good proposition, though. Having him already getting time at AAA would make it pretty obvious he's probably playing with the big league team at some point next year, so maybe that's enough of a marketing boost to help sell a few season tickets. It would be a shame for Deibinson Romero who's having a pretty good season, but it's hard to see much hope for Romero having much of a place in the team's future.


Absolutely on both points.

Last year they gave at bats to some guy who was never going to stick with the team,as a badge of service. They should have had Arcia/Hicks up at that point,and the other in September getting at bats.

If the Twins are sincere about rewarding performance with promotion (and I think they generally are), Sano's amazing season deserves a September call-up---- likely more than any recent Twins prospect.

I concur that a short stint in the playoff run for Sano (and Rosario) with AAA Rochester would also be a win-win: for affiliate harmony.... as well as how own personal, as well as team and organizational, development. Service time issues would make little difference in a September call-up- If Rochester extends a playoff run into the second week of the month, Sano could perhaps get a 2 and a half-week cup of coffee with the Twins. A taste of the big time now would ideally get him charged up for next year and perhaps help in maturity-gains about carrying himself like a big-leaguer about his going into 2014, rather than it being an all-new experience. Ideally, a Wil Myers-type schedule for promotion occurs next year, with Sano banging down the door to starting Twins 3Bman, in May or June.

mike wants wins
08-08-2013, 09:08 AM
Oh, as for plunking hitters, that's worse than PEDs....you are trying to hurt someone else. The commissioner should be cracking down on that.

jokin
08-08-2013, 09:15 AM
I'd say this: if you think there is a chance you're going to have him be on the roster on Opening Day - any chance at all - then call him up and see what you see. I wish they had done that with Hicks.

I'm guessing that going into September of 2012, the Twins had no intentions of calling Hicks up in 2013 until June, at the earliest- thus no September call-up urgency. When the Phillies called about Revere, everything changed, and the Twins were caught in a chess game having not looked 2-3 moves ahead on possible optional roster approaches.

I hope they learned that lesson well and call up all of the legitimate prospects in September, Pinto, Rosario, Sano......(Buxton? probably a bridge too far...).

jokin
08-08-2013, 09:18 AM
Oh, as for plunking hitters, that's worse than PEDs....you are trying to hurt someone else. The commissioner should be cracking down on that.

Given that this type of enforcement of "unwritten rules" has been going on since the Reds were still called the Red Stockings, I doubt Selig will do much more policing on the issue than what's already in place.

Brandon
08-08-2013, 09:19 AM
Hicks wasn't supposed to be up at the beginning of this season as of last September. it took a perceived overpay for Revere to make this a possibility. He was supposed to start in the minors then after the trade the Twins got the idea that he could start in the majors then his spring did nothing to disprove that.


If Sano gets called up in September I don't think that necessarily starts his clock per se as much as it takes a 40 man roster spot away unnecessarily during the offseason when 40 man roster spots are at a premium for protecting talent and having the ability to sign FA. Otherwise I have no problem bringing up Sano. I do like reinforcing the winning concept however by brining him and Rosario to AAA if spots can be found. Even for the last few weeks to DH PH and spot start in the field if need be then play some in the play offs.

Major Leauge Ready
08-08-2013, 09:35 AM
We are all in need of something interesting to watch. Having said this, Hicks and Arcia should be good reminders of why we should not rush players. Two levels in one year is enough. Promote him to AAA the start of next year and call him up in June or July if he is dominating at AAA.

Yossarian
08-08-2013, 09:42 AM
Ahhh, yes, let's repeat the Hicks mistake as soon as possible. The kid's 20. Let him go rip up the IL next spring. It's not as if the Twins will contend in 2014.

70charger
08-08-2013, 09:43 AM
I go back and forth on this too. I don't think that giving him a September callup guarantees his spot on the majors next year (see: Benson, Joe) but it may help to get him acclimated. I do think he'll be doing well enough next year to hear some cries of "forcing the issue" by July at the latest, and at that point it would be nice if going to the majors wasn't a complete shock.

On the other hand, he doesn't need to be on the 40 man, and there are a couple question marks as far as young guys who need or may this year need spots on the 40 man. This may be overstated, as we know what we have in guys like Bernier or Thomas, but bad teams can't afford to be cavalier with roster spots. Similarly, if we look at his position, I doubt we can honestly say that replacing Plouffe at third base is a top priority for the team. No Plouffe isn't a future hall of famer, but I don't think we need to rush Sano for lack of a good option. The situation with Hicks was quite different.

jorgenswest
08-08-2013, 09:43 AM
Nothing will be learned in a September call up. It isn't enough time. The only purposes served would be my selfish interest in seeing him play and the managements interest in selling tickets.

A better use of September is the International League playoffs that begin September 4 and continue for up to two weeks. Let him get that experience. Perhaps moving he and Rosario soon to help Rochester get to the playoffs.

Give him 10 more weeks in AAA next year and allow him to dominate that level. If that happens, call him up June 15 and allow him to work through his struggles at the major league level with the knowledge that he has dominated the levels below.

This is not about service time or super 2. I think this plan decreases the chance that he will need to move back and forth between the majors and the minors.

gobirds
08-08-2013, 09:49 AM
I'm gonna pick a few nits here...."Quandry" should be "Quandary" and...
2. Miguel Sano is not dominating AA. Let's not talk about this as if he's tearing the cover off the ball.
Is shortly followed by
In short, this is a great dilemma. Again, Miguel Sano is 20 years old. And tearing the cover off the ball.
I'm confused, is he actually tearing the cover off the ball, or not?

As to the gist of the article, I'd make him earn his way up the ladder and wait until next year. The commenters throwing out his first 2 weeks of AA ball are then relying on a very small statistical sample at this level. Sure, he has hit well at the lower levels, but give him a chance to learn how to adjust at the AA level after the opposing coaches and pitchers have familiarized themselves with Sano's hitting tendencies.

Brock Beauchamp
08-08-2013, 09:50 AM
Truth be told.... with Twins management confirming that Sano's defense is no longer an issue, Sano has little left to improve upon facing minor league pitchers.

Truncated for brevity. I agree... And disagree.

Honestly, I think the best thing for Sano might be a short trip to AAA to let him face more wily AAAA guys. Sure, AA has talent, but AAA is littered with guys who are older, have played on an MLB roster, and are craftier.

If Sano can continue posting an OPS over .900 against those guys, I don't care about the strikeouts. The BA doesn't matter one lick for the reasons Jokin posted... Miguel is simply getting unlucky. It happens. The only concern should be whether he will swing and miss too many balls against MLB pitchers and the best way to figure that out is to let him taste AAA pitching for a few weeks.

On the other hand, I have no problems with him starting 2014 in AAA to extend his service time, either. I'm a patient man. He'll be here soon enough.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-08-2013, 09:51 AM
Oh, as for plunking hitters, that's worse than PEDs....you are trying to hurt someone else.

No you aren't As long as you aren't hit in the wrist, face, head, ankle, elbow, balls, etc you will be fine getting hit

Brock Beauchamp
08-08-2013, 09:52 AM
Ahhh, yes, let's repeat the Hicks mistake as soon as possible. The kid's 20. Let him go rip up the IL next spring. It's not as if the Twins will contend in 2014.

TS Eliot.

*hangs up phone*

Twins Fan From Afar
08-08-2013, 10:02 AM
I'm gonna pick a few nits here...."Quandry" should be "Quandary" and...
2. Miguel Sano is not dominating AA. Let's not talk about this as if he's tearing the cover off the ball.
Is shortly followed by
In short, this is a great dilemma. Again, Miguel Sano is 20 years old. And tearing the cover off the ball.
I'm confused, is he actually tearing the cover off the ball, or not?

As to the gist of the article, I'd make him earn his way up the ladder and wait until next year. The commenters throwing out his first 2 weeks of AA ball are then relying on a very small statistical sample at this level. Sure, he has hit well at the lower levels, but give him a chance to learn how to adjust at the AA level after the opposing coaches and pitchers have familiarized themselves with Sano's hitting tendencies.

Thanks for the spelling catch!
The last paragraph of the article was my opinion that Sano is tearing the cover off the ball. The preceding reference was in the reasons not to call him up. A .243 average, to some, would suggest he's not hitting that well.

So, it's really up for discussion whether his lower batting average, coupled with good power #s, are good enough.

mike wants wins
08-08-2013, 10:06 AM
Let's not be aggressive, like with Trout or Machado.....let's just wait, and then wait some more, and then wait again.....40 man roster spots? This is one of the 5 worst teams in MLB, and they have bad MiL relievers on the 40 man....there are not roster spot issues.

E. Andrew
08-08-2013, 10:18 AM
Nice info.

I think one possibly overlooked clue on the call-up is that spring game against the Yankees on ESPN, bringing him on to the team for one night. It seemed like an irregular move for the org, and I think it hints at how much they know that the attention is building. That said, I think they've been level-headed in keeping him at pace with Rosario (or the other way around). It was 'preferential' enough (I thought) to feature him on ESPN. I would hope they'd give Rosario nearly the same treatment they give Sano.

drjim
08-08-2013, 10:22 AM
Sept callups are overrated. It would have made minimal difference for Hicks if even that.

A promotion for the AAA playoffs could be beneficial in actually playing for something instead of this current death march.

A Sano Sept callup would br almost entirely to hold on to some interest and build optimism for next year. If he scuffles badly it would be counterproductive for him and the franchise. I like the suggestion of waiting for a new manager and fresh start.

drjim
08-08-2013, 10:23 AM
Let's not be aggressive, like with Trout or Machado.....let's just wait, and then wait some more, and then wait again.....40 man roster spots? This is one of the 5 worst teams in MLB, and they have bad MiL relievers on the 40 man....there are not roster spot issues.

Hicks?

mike wants wins
08-08-2013, 10:26 AM
My point is, Anecdotes (sp?) are not proof of anything.....Hicks does not PROVE Sano should stay down, anymore than Trout proves he should not. He should be up just before he's fully ready, imo.

diehardtwinsfan
08-08-2013, 10:47 AM
I don't see any benefit at all to a September call up for Sano.

1) He's not dominating AA. He got off to a horrific start and has been hot his last 10 games or so. There's SSS issues on both sides right now, and just promoting him to AAA doesn't make a ton of sense.

2) He does not need to be on the 40 man at the end of the year. If he's added this year and opens next year in the minors, one of his options just got wasted.

3) He's likely (assuming he hits well in NB the rest of the year) going to open in Rochester. I'm fine with that. No reason to rush him as I think you can argue that he still has things to learn in the minors. Let him prove he's ready before he's added to the 40 man.

mike wants wins
08-08-2013, 11:21 AM
Options? You expect Sano to have to go up and down a lot? Y'all have way different expectations of him than I do.....

How would he prove it? Machado proved nothing, in terms of numbers. What would be your success measure?

UCLA_YANKEE_COLA
08-08-2013, 11:22 AM
I don't see any benefit at all to a September call up for Sano.

1) He's not dominating AA. He got off to a horrific start and has been hot his last 10 games or so.

I don't know if he should be promoted or not, but this is incorrect.

As Jokin' said earlier in this thread....

...if Sano qualified among the Eastern League statistical leaders, his SLG of .559 would lead the League. His OPS of .914 would be 3rd in the League.



I don't know how that isn't dominating a league.

drjim
08-08-2013, 11:44 AM
Options? You expect Sano to have to go up and down a lot? Y'all have way different expectations of him than I do.....

How would he prove it? Machado proved nothing, in terms of numbers. What would be your success measure?

Sano and Machado are really hard to compare. Different types of players and franchises in much different positions. Baltimore desperately needed a 3b for a playoff push while the Twins are in a position to be patient developmentally.

SpitefulRabbit617
08-08-2013, 12:40 PM
Sano needs to be down long enough for next year's Triple A all-star game. THEN call him up:)

mike wants wins
08-08-2013, 02:29 PM
If he's ready, he should come up, I don't care about options, or super 2, or anything. When he's deemed ready, he should be up. I think he's ready next spring.

diehardtwinsfan
08-08-2013, 02:56 PM
I don't know if he should be promoted or not, but this is incorrect.

As Jokin' said earlier in this thread....

...if Sano qualified among the Eastern League statistical leaders, his SLG of .559 would lead the League. His OPS of .914 would be 3rd in the League.



I don't know how that isn't dominating a league.

He's also striking out a ton and hitting below .250. Sorry, that's not domination.

Linus
08-08-2013, 03:31 PM
This is just theoretical non-sense. He's not getting called up in September as he doesn't even have to be added to the 40 man roster yet. The Twins need all those spots to help improve this dismal team. Plus, there is no reason to call the guy up until he is ready to contribute at the major league level. As we've seen from Hicks, just because we are all impatient and want to see the kids at the major league level now doesn't mean it is the right thing to do for their development. If he finishes well at AA, start him in Rochester next spring and see how it goes. And yes, service time does matter - he is likely to make big money someday along with several of his teammates. Every year you can have him under team control is valuable and shouldn't be wasted by playing guys who aren't ready, ala Hicks this year.

mike wants wins
08-08-2013, 03:48 PM
So if he's ready in teh spring, don't reward your season ticket holders with his presence? that's your stance.

drjim
08-08-2013, 03:52 PM
So if he's ready in teh spring, don't reward your season ticket holders with his presence? that's your stance.

Doing things ptimarily to reward season ticket holders is surefire way to get into trouble. They should call him up if he is ready because he is a beast and will help the team win.

UCLA_YANKEE_COLA
08-08-2013, 03:54 PM
He's also striking out a ton and hitting below .250. Sorry, that's not domination.

Who cares? Those are two really dumb ways to judge a hitter. His OPS is .914. You don't have to think that's dominant but that's dominant.

jorgenswest
08-08-2013, 04:01 PM
So if he's ready in teh spring, don't reward your season ticket holders with his presence? that's your stance.

There is no way to know if he is ready in the spring. He will not see near enough season ready quality major league pitching in the spring. Spring stats and even September call up stats have absolutely no value for projecting or assessing readiness.

You reward your season ticket holders by developing Sano into a very good player over several seasons.

As for AA, his strikeout rate has not gone up and has stayed around the 25% level as he has moved up the ladder. That is encouraging. Let's see that trend continue for 10 weeks in AAA next year.

h2oface
08-08-2013, 04:03 PM
The less time he spends around Jeff Smith, the better. Why Jeff Smith is even managing at all is a mystery to me.

jorgenswest
08-08-2013, 04:07 PM
Who cares? Those are two really dumb ways to judge a hitter. His OPS is .914. You don't have to think that's dominant but that's dominant.

It takes a sample of around 500 plate appearances for OPS to become reliable for use in assessing a player. It is dependent on so many other factors. Strike out rate, on the other hand, stabilizes at 150 plate appearances. Sano has 172 plate appearances in AA. His strike out rate has remained at the same level as he has moved up to AA. That is a good sign that we should care about.

Oldgoat_MN
08-08-2013, 04:30 PM
Promotion to AAA...

The Twins organization should probably keep in mind, when considering a promotion to AAA for Sano & Rosario, that D. Romero and J. Beresford have had a hand in the good season the Red Wings are having. This gets sticky, I would guess.

I don't mean that they should block the advancement of superior players, but there is a lot for management to considered.

Also, I appreciate the data jokin posted and agree that it is relevant, but I lean more heavily toward Brock's points.

AAA has pitchers who are better and smarter, many with MLB experience. Sano should go hang out there before appearing at Target Field.

diehardtwinsfan
08-08-2013, 04:58 PM
Who cares? Those are two really dumb ways to judge a hitter. His OPS is .914. You don't have to think that's dominant but that's dominant.

No they aren't. Especially when major league pitchers are far more proficient in putting pitchers where hitters cannot hit them. As I said in my first post, he was very cold when he first got there and has been pretty hot for about 2 weeks. SSS could be affecting both sides. He needs more time in AA. No reason to give him a call up.

CharacterGroove
08-08-2013, 05:00 PM
I think there's a decent argument to be had between s promotion to MLB vs. AAA in September. I fall on the aggressive side, and and say go big. It doesn't determine next April, and the team better not be preoccupied with counting options with an elite prospect.

Which leads me to Hicks. I wish people would stop comparing Sano (or Buxton for that matter) to Hicks. Hicks' MLB career is not a warning sign for other MiLB prospects, Hicks' MiLB career was a warning sign for Hicks' MLB career.

Twins Fan From Afar
08-08-2013, 05:43 PM
This is just theoretical non-sense. He's not getting called up in September as he doesn't even have to be added to the 40 man roster yet. The Twins need all those spots to help improve this dismal team. Plus, there is no reason to call the guy up until he is ready to contribute at the major league level. As we've seen from Hicks, just because we are all impatient and want to see the kids at the major league level now doesn't mean it is the right thing to do for their development. If he finishes well at AA, start him in Rochester next spring and see how it goes. And yes, service time does matter - he is likely to make big money someday along with several of his teammates. Every year you can have him under team control is valuable and shouldn't be wasted by playing guys who aren't ready, ala Hicks this year.

I'm not so sure this is "theoretical nonsense." And I'm pretty sure that if August becomes September, if Sano has increased the batting average somewhat, played solid defense, and put up solid power #s, the Twins' front office will be having these same discussions. In fact these conversations are probably taking place now.

It's theoretical in the sense that things need to happen in order for Sano to deserve a promotion. But about 2/3 of the posts on this website are about hypothetical scenarios. I guess that's the product of your team losing 90+ games for 3 seasons.

Linus
08-08-2013, 06:31 PM
I'm not so sure this is "theoretical nonsense." And I'm pretty sure that if August becomes September, if Sano has increased the batting average somewhat, played solid defense, and put up solid power #s, the Twins' front office will be having these same discussions. In fact these conversations are probably taking place now.

It's theoretical in the sense that things need to happen in order for Sano to deserve a promotion. But about 2/3 of the posts on this website are about hypothetical scenarios. I guess that's the product of your team losing 90+ games for 3 seasons.

It's theoretical non-sense in that there is zero chance he gets called up in September. They are not going to add him to the 40 man when it is not necessary, nor should they unless he is ready to be a productive MLB player. Terry Ryan has already stated this on his radio program. Its simply not happening.

Linus
08-08-2013, 06:50 PM
I think there's a decent argument to be had between s promotion to MLB vs. AAA in September. I fall on the aggressive side, and and say go big. It doesn't determine next April, and the team better not be preoccupied with counting options with an elite prospect.

Which leads me to Hicks. I wish people would stop comparing Sano (or Buxton for that matter) to Hicks. Hicks' MLB career is not a warning sign for other MiLB prospects, Hicks' MiLB career was a warning sign for Hicks' MLB career.

Nobody is comparing Hicks and Sano as prospects. Its apples and oranges in ability and in age. The point is that bringing somebody to the majors when they are not ready is not good for their development, regardless of how you rate them as a prospect. Sano is not ready; hopefully he will be sometime next year or so which will be an extremely fast track for him to the majors.

troyhobbs
08-08-2013, 09:51 PM
He may not be ready but the arguments that a Sept call up would hurt his development are hard to understand. If he doesn't get called up his season is done, if he is called up he gets to play baseball every day surrounded by big league coaching and players. I would imagine that is good for development.

twinsnorth49
08-08-2013, 10:08 PM
I just don't get this hurting development argument, the guy is not going to be fundamentally damaged even if he sucks wind in September, c'mon. If that's the worry then I guess Hicks is completely screwed after 2/3rds a season of suckitude.

Besides, I'm coming for games on September, I want to see the big fella, throw us a bone.

Linus
08-08-2013, 10:10 PM
He may not be ready but the arguments that a Sept call up would hurt his development are hard to understand. If he doesn't get called up his season is done, if he is called up he gets to play baseball every day surrounded by big league coaching and players. I would imagine that is good for development.

Its not just about him. The 40 man roster spot is a big deal when you need to patch many holes. Besides, he can go to the Arizona Fall League or winter ball if he needs more playing time.

troyhobbs
08-08-2013, 10:23 PM
Its not just about him. The 40 man roster spot is a big deal when you need to patch many holes. Besides, he can go to the Arizona Fall League or winter ball if he needs more playing time.

Why is the 40 man spot a big deal? If there's one thing this roster has it's players that are expendable. Anyway, I realize he's not going to get called up, I'd just really like it if he did so there was a reason to watch baseball this fall.

twinsnorth49
08-08-2013, 10:37 PM
Its not just about him. The 40 man roster spot is a big deal when you need to patch many holes. Besides, he can go to the Arizona Fall League or winter ball if he needs more playing time.

What holes are most guys on this 40 man filling? And who else would need them to fill any of their holes?.........would anyone actually notice?

jokin
08-08-2013, 10:41 PM
I don't see any benefit at all to a September call up for Sano.

1) He's not dominating AA. He got off to a horrific start and has been hot his last 10 games or so. There's SSS issues on both sides right now, and just promoting him to AAA doesn't make a ton of sense.

2) He does not need to be on the 40 man at the end of the year. If he's added this year and opens next year in the minors, one of his options just got wasted.

3) He's likely (assuming he hits well in NB the rest of the year) going to open in Rochester. I'm fine with that. No reason to rush him as I think you can argue that he still has things to learn in the minors. Let him prove he's ready before he's added to the 40 man.

1) No. As stated before, Sano is leading the league in SLG and 3rd in OPS if he qualified. He's made his adjustments at the plate, succeeded in the field and has only been distracted by injury and a discipline issue.

2) Possibly a good argument, but..... I don't see how it's possible that a guy with this much talent and the Twins with this much need, would make an issue of his available options ever come into significant consideration. You haven't said it, but in response to others that have said it....MIGUEL SANO IS NOT AARON HICKS!!!

3) I agree that he's likely to open in AAA, but I really don't think he has much left to learn in the minors--- except developing a little more maturity to aid in a smooth, seamless and no-turning-back transition to the Twins. Again, the numbers he's accomplished this year prove he's in a very, very rarefied class of baseball hitting talent (there's nothing left to "prove"!). And, as others have previously posted, the Twins 40-man roster is chock full of never-weres and never-will-bes, there will be no fretting about whether adding Sano now or next June would make any difference to the future fortunes to the club.

John Bonnes
08-08-2013, 11:06 PM
No, he's not Hicks, but the biggest difference is upside. For this decision, I think we're talking about readiness, and I would have thought Hicks MORE ready than Sano. He struck out a (very) little less and walked more. But I'm not sure that's necessarily a reason to not promote him. If we're waiting for the strikeouts to come down, we may be waiting a very long time.

jorgenswest
08-08-2013, 11:50 PM
It is a good sign that strike out rate has not gone up. Ten weeks in AAA next year is not going to hurt his development. If he can maintain his strikeout and walk rates in AAA, call him up around June 15. If not, give him the time to adjust at AAA.

jimbo92107
08-08-2013, 11:55 PM
You don't call up a player only after he's completely ready. Look at Torii Hunter, Denard Span, Aaron Hicks, Oswaldo Arcia, and lots more. You call up a young player so he can see what he'll be up against in his mlb career. Sometimes they stick right away; sometimes, like Hunter, Span, Hicks and Arcia, they need a little more time to make some adjustments in AAA.

Calling up Miguel Sano probably would be a good move, so long as the kid realizes that major league pitchers will sometimes make him look completely foolish. They'll mess up his timing with amazing change ups. They'll blast him inside with mid-90's heat. They'll make him wave clumsily at curves that break two feet outside, and at forkballs that hit the dirt a foot in front of the plate.

In short, they'll make Sano look and feel foolish with his big, long swing. What Sano does about that will determine if he stays up, or goes to AAA finishing school. A lot of very good ballplayers had to go back down one or more times to work on their game, and it may well be the case for Miguel. That doesn't mean you don't let him try his hand. At least let the kid see the kind of pitchers he's going to be facing. Heck, maybe he can handle them right now. There's only one way to find out.

DJL44
08-09-2013, 09:22 AM
Is he better than Plouffe yet? Probably not. Plouffe is getting the playing time this September.

Twins Fan From Afar
08-09-2013, 09:47 AM
Is he better than Plouffe yet? Probably not. Plouffe is getting the playing time this September.

Actually I think that's a good question. Plouffe has a .678 OPS, 10 homers, 3x as many Ks as walks. I assume, but don't know for certain, that Plouffe is better defensively (admittedly I've seen Sano play more than I have Plouffe).

spycake
08-09-2013, 09:48 AM
I'm torn.

I think service time issues are generally overblown, but they make the most difference for a top prospect who projects to be an all-star (Sano, Wil Myers), as opposed to guys who project as more role players (Hicks, Gibson). (On the flip side, option years mean less to the better players, as they are less likely to need them.)

But there are few things more exciting than a fast-track prospect who is succeeding... and likewise few things more depressing than a fast-track prospects who disappoints!

orangevening
08-09-2013, 01:44 PM
I think if you call him up it will be for a few innings here, a pitch hit there for a couple weeks in September. The Gibson/Albers treatment- a little easing in before getting serious

Jim H
08-09-2013, 08:28 PM
Interesting thread. Some good points on both sides of the issue. I tend to think he is not really ready for the majors, but that really isn't the key point. I liked the questions about Plouffe. Sano probably isn't better than Plouffe right now, but that really isn't the issue either. We all expect that when Sano gets to the majors for good, he is going to be good, probably even great. Even if he is, he is going to need good pieces around him.

Since I suspect Sano isn't really quite ready for the majors, I would just as soon those at bats go to Plouffe, and others like Collabello and Parmelee. I don't think we know yet what Plouffe is going to in the majors. He could be a solid regular, a platoon type guy or a bit player. Give him as much playing as possible at 3rd till Sano gets to the majors. At that point, you make a choice. Maybe you move Plouffe to another position, maybe you move Sano, maybe Plouffe is sort of a super utility guy(he is versatile enough), maybe he is a bench guy, or maybe he is traded. But, give Plouffe as much playing time at 3rd as you can till Sano is ready. Then you can make as informed decision as possible about him.


Right now, I would just as soon Sano was not taking major league at bats from anybody else that could become a useful big leaguer for the Twins. I don't believe that they would benefit him that much, till he is closer to major league ready, and I believe they would benefit the Twins in finding out more about Plouffe, and maybe others.

launchingthrees
08-10-2013, 01:59 AM
It's insane that people are calling for a elite prospect to start the season with a major league club with no threat of competing at the cost of a year of control.

kab21
08-10-2013, 03:00 AM
I actually think you call up Sano for September and make it very clear that he is starting next year in AAA and will only play a little. There are possible financial ramifications (less so if he goes back to AAA next year) but September callups were great exposure to majors. A nice reward for top prospects and also for the fans even if they didn't play that often. It's really too bad that counting days (arb clock) has become so important for franchises.

CharacterGroove
08-10-2013, 10:47 AM
Nobody is comparing Hicks and Sano as prospects. Its apples and oranges in ability and in age. The point is that bringing somebody to the majors when they are not ready is not good for their development, regardless of how you rate them as a prospect. Sano is not ready; hopefully he will be sometime next year or so which will be an extremely fast track for him to the majors.

Like it or not, but when one mentions Hicks' progression in this context he or she is comparing him to Sano.

Also, your conclusion that Sano is not ready is certainly convenient way to argue that he should stay down, but it's nonetheless an opinion based on the same knowledge available to all of us. I disagree that he's not ready.

drjim
08-10-2013, 11:54 AM
Like it or not, but when one mentions Hicks' progression in this context he or she is comparing him to Sano.

Also, your conclusion that Sano is not ready is certainly convenient way to argue that he should stay down, but it's nonetheless an opinion based on the same knowledge available to all of us. I disagree that he's not ready.

If you read this as people comparing them as similar prospects that is a you problem.

We are all speculating on the readiness of Sano but few (if any) national guys have been suggesting he needs to be in the majors or that he is even ready.

ashburyjohn
08-10-2013, 12:03 PM
It's really too bad that counting days (arb clock) has become so important for franchises.

If not doing the September callup is harming prospects' development, this would be a good topic for the next collective bargaining agreement negotiation, although that is quite far away yet. Maybe the number of days' service for arbitration etc should be bumped upward by 30 days or so, in exchange for some other consideration.

CharacterGroove
08-10-2013, 12:27 PM
I read it as people responding to "should Sano get promoted?" with "look at what happened with Hicks." I haven't moved beyond the subject matter if this thread.

I'm not sure what "ready" means re Sano. I'm also not sure whether we're asking the right question. The goal is give the kid the best opportunity to reach his potential, and in turn help the team win games down the road. There's no one way to make this happen. The whole "he's not ready" exercise because of some arbitrary stat or his age is artificially limiting. Perhaps Sano is the type of personality that will thrive on this challenge and/or needs to get his feet wet before taking off after 20 or so games.

As far as the national pundits go, Sano's universally considered an elite prospect, and his numbers remain strong. I think we can agree that, if pressed, they would agree that whether he's "ready' is an open question.

Brandon
08-10-2013, 12:35 PM
If the 40 man roster spot wasnt an issue, and his impending FA wasn't a factor either, I would be alright with bringing up Sano in September. I do think he would be ready to start in the majors by next spring. But i would rather him wait in the minors a month or 2 to push back FA another season. I would rather guarentee we have a producing Sano when we are winning again then have one learning the game in the majors before the next wave of prospects are comming up and shorting us the extra season of control. I guess we could sign him to a 10 year contract and this whole debate becomes moot as we could then call him up whenever.

Twins Fan From Afar
08-10-2013, 12:52 PM
I just want to say thanks to everyone for the comments and good-spirited debate.
I think this is by far the most comments something I've written has generated.

Anyway, thanks.