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Monkeypaws
08-01-2013, 06:25 PM
I'm looking for some opinions on who you folks think are our top 10 starting pitchers in the minors. It's pretty easy to pick out Meyer, Berrios, Stewart, but for some of the guys in the lower levels, I have no idea how guys like Landa and Jorge stack up, or the power arms of the 2012 draft like Bard or Melatokis rank, or Baxendale, etc.

What would BA say? :)

Thrylos
08-01-2013, 06:41 PM
What would BA say? :)

Not sure what BA would say, but MLB.com says this: (go there (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/index.jsp?c_id=min)and then click on top 20 by team, select the Twins and you will get the top 9 position players as well...)

1-11

Alex Myer
Kyle Gibson
Kohl Stewart
Jose Berrios
Trevor May
Ryan Eades
Mason Melotakis
Luke Bard
JT Chargois
Stephen Gonsalves
Felix Jorge

cmathewson
08-01-2013, 07:54 PM
My list:

Alex Meyer
Kohl Stewart
Jose Berrios
Kyle Gibson
Trevor May
Lewis Thorpe
Stephen Gonsalves
Ryan Eades
Mason Melotakis
DJ Baxendale
Alex Wimmers

Twinsoholic
08-01-2013, 09:02 PM
My top 10 (12) Twins pitching prospects:

Stewart
Meyers
Berrios
May
Summers
Duffy/Baxendale
Melotakis
Gonsalves/Thorpe
Eades
Jorge

I am not counting Gibson since he is on the 25 man roster. I am also not counting Albers because he might soon be on the 25 man roster. Would Albers fit in the top 15? I'm not sure, but I hope he gets promoted so we can see how he does against mlb hitters.

Is this a great list of prospects? No. Is it better than what the Twins have had for the last five years. Yes! If the Twins have, in June 2014, as they have had in the past two Junes, one of the top five draft picks in each round, then I would bet that they will take the best college starter available in round one to deepen the pool of potential #1/#2 starters in the system, and then I suspect that they would take high ceiling high school starters in rounds 2 and 3 to really flesh out their starting pitching depth. That would complement their position player depth. It is nice to see prospect starters at all levels of their minor league system now--Meyer and May, for example, will likely start next season at AAA (although it is also possible that one of them could break camp with the Twins for the 2014 season).

Kwak
08-01-2013, 09:22 PM
What a sorry list! Only Albers is as high as AAA, and he sounds a lot like a white Bruce Chen-clone. Pheew! Meyers and May at AA--because the Twins PR machine has to agree with Ryan's trades--I sure hope they are correct, but my skepticism meter is flashing red. The rest are A-ball and lower--total hype for now.

There has been much back-and-forth in other threads blaming GM/not blaming GMs but let's face it the scouts, the cross-checkers, the whole personnel gang has been in place forever. If there is a group to blame it's them!

AM.
08-01-2013, 09:37 PM
My completely poorly informed list goes like this:

Stewart
Meyer
Gibson
Berrios
Hendriks
May
Gonsalves
Wimmers
Thorpe
Baxendale

MichiganTwins
08-01-2013, 09:38 PM
So we have a sorry list of positional players in our minor league system too? Man shoot, Buxton is only at high a. Man shoot Sano and Rosario are only at AA. Man we have a sorry list. When will the twins ever win with all these good prospects low in the minors. We need to fire everyone because we have the number one minor in the game right now. Fire everyone now. If we don't we will continue to have a bright future with one of the best farm systems in the game. Fire them NOW.

Mai.K
08-01-2013, 09:44 PM
Alex Myer
Kohl Stewart
Jose Berrios
Trevor May
Ryan Eades
Mason Melotakis
J.T. Chargois
Lewis Thorpe
Logan Darnell
B.J. Hermsen

Thegrin
08-01-2013, 09:46 PM
My top 10 list.
Gibson
Albers
Diamond
Walters
Hendriks
Darnell
Vasquez
Worley
DeVries
Blackburn
All our AAA/IR starters. lol

Vervehound
08-01-2013, 09:52 PM
Not sure what BA would say, but MLB.com says this: (go there (http://minnesota.twins.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/index.jsp?c_id=min)and then click on top 20 by team, select the Twins and you will get the top 9 position players as well...)

1-11

Alex Myer
Kyle Gibson
Kohl Stewart
Jose Berrios
Trevor May
Ryan Eades
Mason Melotakis
Luke Bard
JT Chargois
Stephen Gonsalves
Felix Jorge

good list but I think chargois is staying in the pen. Jorge could be flipped with either Rosario, landa or Thorpe. the one guy I like that you left out is duffey - he's got better stuff than most people realize and has shot at being a no.3.

Vervehound
08-01-2013, 09:54 PM
So we have a sorry list of positional players in our minor league system too? Man shoot, Buxton is only at high a. Man shoot Sano and Rosario are only at AA. Man we have a sorry list. When will the twins ever win with all these good prospects low in the minors. We need to fire everyone because we have the number one minor in the game right now. Fire everyone now. If we don't we will continue to have a bright future with one of the best farm systems in the game. Fire them NOW.

I think your post is inadvertently hilarious.

drjim
08-01-2013, 10:17 PM
What a sorry list! Only Albers is as high as AAA, and he sounds a lot like a white Bruce Chen-clone. Pheew! Meyers and May at AA--because the Twins PR machine has to agree with Ryan's trades--I sure hope they are correct, but my skepticism meter is flashing red. The rest are A-ball and lower--total hype for now.

There has been much back-and-forth in other threads blaming GM/not blaming GMs but let's face it the scouts, the cross-checkers, the whole personnel gang has been in place forever. If there is a group to blame it's them!

It's actually pretty middle of the pack if not slightly above average. Pretty rare for teams to have several arms at AA or AAA.

I would recommend taking a look at a few other farm systems for some context.

Rosterman
08-01-2013, 10:35 PM
So Hermsen is no more. Albers came out of nowhere. DeVries is dead. And no one knows what to make of Logan Darnell.

cmb0252
08-01-2013, 10:52 PM
Stewart
Meyers
Berrios
May
Eades
Gonsalves
Everyone else

Badsmerf
08-01-2013, 11:26 PM
Stewart
Meyer
May
Berrios
Eades
Jorge
Thorpe
Chargois
Duffy
Gonsalves

Butterfingers8
08-01-2013, 11:37 PM
so does landa's stuff not match up or what? His numbers look great, and from what I have heard he has pretty good velocity, so why is he not considered a top young are in the system?

Kwak
08-01-2013, 11:38 PM
It's actually pretty middle of the pack if not slightly above average. Pretty rare for teams to have several arms at AA or AAA.

I would recommend taking a look at a few other farm systems for some context.

Are they also at the bottom of BB in pitching? Everyone?

Butterfingers8
08-01-2013, 11:48 PM
For me it would be:
Alex Meyer
Kohl Stewart
Jose Berrios
Kyle Gibson*
Trevor May
Alex Wimmer- yes I know, but I'm still optimistic
Stephen Gonslaves
Ryan Eades
Flex Jorge
Yorman Landa
Randy Rosario
Lewis Thorpe
Mason Melotakis

throw in Bard and Chargios once they have pitched a little.

Shane Wahl
08-01-2013, 11:56 PM
Gibson (still counts)
Meyer
Berrios
Stewart

May

Baxendale
Duffey
Eades
Melotakis
Wimmers

Badsmerf
08-01-2013, 11:56 PM
so does landa's stuff not match up or what? His numbers look great, and from what I have heard he has pretty good velocity, so why is he not considered a top young are in the system?
Hard to rate him right now. Need more scouting reports and results. Stewart is easy to rate right now because he was the number 4 pick in the draft and was highly scouted. His rating has more to do with ceiling than anything else right now. Full season ball is where prospects start to stick out from fillers.

Monkeypaws
08-02-2013, 12:09 AM
Very interesting - I was recently made aware of the "Big 3" in E-town, and find little praise for them.

Butterfingers8
08-02-2013, 12:12 AM
That's kind of what I thought but it still seems weird to me that Flex Jorge is getting some major attention and Landa is not. I do have to say that I am very excited about the potential Cedar Rapids rotation next year. i.e. Stewart, Gonslaves (if they play full season) Landa, Jorge, and Rosario.

maxisagod
08-02-2013, 12:47 AM
Very interesting - I was recently made aware of the "Big 3" in E-town, and find little praise for them.
Lack of a track record, lack of reports. It easier for fans to keep track/ follow guys if they were aquired in big trades, were high bonus babies, or are on the cusp of the Majors. Beating up on guys in Appy doesnt get you a lot of love, Arica did it and most fans still didnt notice. If they were high draft picks they would be getting more attention then Gonslaves or most of the pitchers The Twins have in Low A right now.

blairpaul715
08-02-2013, 03:25 AM
I will throw my hat in also, with explanations, Gibson , will be a#2 or most likely a #3; Meyer, barring injury has a good shot at being a #2; May is probably a #4 or reliever longterm(nothing wrong with being a 4, especially compared to the #5 and #6's we have now. Berrios, just my opinion will not make it to the bigs, as a starter, he is great in the lower minors because he is advanced for his age, but not a lot of projection, as I heard someone else say, he is what he is. This years crop of pitchers I havnt formed an opinion yet, but looks promising, but then don't all new high draftees look promising. :)

diehardtwinsfan
08-02-2013, 07:22 AM
I would toss Gibson out. He's already pitched a bunch at the ML level and will not be eligible for any list this offseason. I'm leaving Albers off because to be fair, he isn't really a prospect. I am hoping he gets a shot and can prove himself, but I think at best he's more of a back of the rotation type guy. Also leaving off Worley. Here's my list:

1) Meyer - potential ace. Injury is the conern right now. ETA at some point next season.
2) Stewart - potential ace. potential for 4 plus pitches. Doing what he should in GCL.
3) May - gets the Ks, walk rate is dropping. Could still top out as a 1/2 type guy, but looking more like he'll be a 2/3. Not a bad pitcher. ETA next season some time.
4) Berrios - potential #2
5) Eades - potential #2. Could rise through the minors quickly.
6) Thorpe - potential top ceiling guy, but still way too far away
7) Gonclaves - potential top ceiling guy. Hard throwing lefty. Too far away, but doing his job in GCL.
8) Darnell - potential #3. Struggling a bit in AAA after flat out dominating AA. Needs some time and will likely be in the rotation at some point next year. Delievered results at a high enough level that despite the lower ceiling, he belongs on this list.
9) Bard - potential 2/3 type guy, but has been rehabbing an injury. This is a lost season for him. Could rise through the minors quickly next year if healthy.
10) Melotakis. Potential 2/3 guy, but I think he's likely going to be a 3/4/5.

HM: Wimmers, Hendricks, Baxendale, Hu, Fernando Romero, Jorge, Rosario

Truth be told, this really isn't a bad list. I know pitching is considered the weakness of the system, but a lot of teams would be very happy with this group of pitchers. There are a number of high ceiling arms in there (and that includes several of the guys on the HM list), unfortunately most are pretty far away, and as high ceiling arms go, most will likely fail. There are 3 guys in the system who can all be above average pitchers who will likely see MLB action next season. I still think they need to add high ceiling arms, but Ryan and company have done a decent job shoring this one up.

cmathewson
08-02-2013, 07:31 AM
What a sorry list! Only Albers is as high as AAA, and he sounds a lot like a white Bruce Chen-clone. Pheew! Meyers and May at AA--because the Twins PR machine has to agree with Ryan's trades--I sure hope they are correct, but my skepticism meter is flashing red. The rest are A-ball and lower--total hype for now.

There has been much back-and-forth in other threads blaming GM/not blaming GMs but let's face it the scouts, the cross-checkers, the whole personnel gang has been in place forever. If there is a group to blame it's them!

Wow. We have five better pitching prospects than we've had since Liriano and you call it a "sorry list", just because there are no AAA pitchers on it? Just wow.

Vervehound
08-02-2013, 07:32 AM
That's kind of what I thought but it still seems weird to me that Flex Jorge is getting some major attention and Landa is not. I do have to say that I am very excited about the potential Cedar Rapids rotation next year. i.e. Stewart, Gonslaves (if they play full season) Landa, Jorge, and Rosario.

Jorge is the classically projectable of the three. Rosario and landa are both six foot on a good day. I think you're up in arms over nothing - a couple people have included him at the bottom of their list.

SpiritofVodkaDave
08-02-2013, 07:42 AM
Top SP prospects: For my list the player has to currently be in the minors

1. Scott Diamond- Has shown ML success
2. Nick Blackburn- See number 1
3. Vance Worley
(Big drop off)
4. Stewart
5. Meyer
6. May
7. Berrios
8. Whimmers
9. Shooter Hunt
10. Alan Anderson

Badsmerf
08-02-2013, 08:10 AM
Top SP prospects: For my list the player has to currently be in the minors

1. Scott Diamond- Has shown ML success
2. Nick Blackburn- See number 1
3. Vance Worley
(Big drop off)
4. Stewart
5. Meyer
6. May
7. Berrios
8. Whimmers
9. Shooter Hunt
10. Alan Anderson
5065

USAFChief
08-02-2013, 08:18 AM
Tinstaapp.

mike wants wins
08-02-2013, 08:55 AM
You guys are much higher on Berrios than I am......and I am higher on Wimmers than many of you.

Oxtung
08-02-2013, 05:31 PM
I think previous posters have pretty well covered the options. I will just say that I think one of the guys at Elizabethton or GCL (other than Stewart obviously) will become a very highly regarded prospect getting into the top 100 prospect conversation at some point. That said my guess is it won't be until after Cedar Rapids or Fort Meyer. Unless you're a big name international or draft pick it takes a while to get noticed.

launchingthrees
08-02-2013, 06:21 PM
If we separate our position players and pitching where do the Twin's prospects rank among other teams? Off the top of my head, position players are #1 by a large margin. Our pitching is somewhere between 10-15.

kab21
08-02-2013, 09:48 PM
I think the Twins pitching prospects rank higher than a lot of people give them credit for. Not many teams have a 1/2 of Stewart/Meyer. Even the depth has been improving lately.

Thegrin
08-02-2013, 11:10 PM
Twins starters, except for Duduno, have either been inconsistent or bad. This means that starting candidates are coming up and going straight into the rotation. In years past, a good AAA pitcher was brought up and put into the bullpen and given a chance to start when a rotation spot opened up. This was why Duensing got to be in the rotation to start 2012. He was a successful spot starter in 2011.
Now, all the starter candidates in AAA (except Albers and Darnell) have been tried by the Twins and have not been successful. We dismiss them as prospects, yet these are the pitchers that will probably get another chance before Meyer, May or any of the rest of them.
Just because we hold low expectations for them, does not mean that they are not prospects.

Major Leauge Ready
08-03-2013, 06:47 AM
What a sorry list! Only Albers is as high as AAA, and he sounds a lot like a white Bruce Chen-clone. Pheew! Meyers and May at AA--because the Twins PR machine has to agree with Ryan's trades--I sure hope they are correct, but my skepticism meter is flashing red. The rest are A-ball and lower--total hype for now.

There has been much back-and-forth in other threads blaming GM/not blaming GMs but let's face it the scouts, the cross-checkers, the whole personnel gang has been in place forever. If there is a group to blame it's them!

While I would have to agree the Twins should pay big money to recruit a couple guys that scout or develop talent for the Rays and As, our farm system is in great shape. I think you might have lost sight of the fact the Twins farm system is at the top of all of the programs in MLB. You need to find a new team to follow.

Jim H
08-03-2013, 09:44 AM
I believe that the Twins have changed their scouting and even brought in new people a few years ago beginning with the new scouting director. It hasn't received a ton of attention, but various people have written about it here on this site and others. It seems that some of those changes are reflected in the influx of young talent in the orgaization. Of course some of the talent influx is a result of high draft choices and the supplemental choices of a couple of years ago, as well. As well as the increased spending in the international market.

It is easy to forget that scouting is a pretty inexact science. Trying to project what 16, 17, 18 year old kids are going to be like in a few years, is largely guesswork. Also nobody can project injuries, which largely wrecked several years worth of high pitching draft choices for the Twins.

While it easy to praise the A's, Rays and other orgaizations it well to remember that they have their down years drafting as well. Part of the reason they always seem to have a lot of good young players is that their budgets won't let them keep their good, established, expensive players; so they are always trading them for more prospects.

TwinsFanInPhilly
08-03-2013, 09:55 AM
You guys are much higher on Berrios than I am......and I am higher on Wimmers than many of you.

And that's what makes a market! And I agree on Wimmers

Mr. Brooks
08-03-2013, 02:38 PM
I think the Twins pitching prospects rank higher than a lot of people give them credit for. Not many teams have a 1/2 of Stewart/Meyer. Even the depth has been improving lately.

I would beg to differ. I'd say it's right in the middle of the pack in this regard. Some quick research shows that roughly half the organizations in baseball half a comparable, or better, 1/2 as Meyer/Stewart, rankings wise.

cmb0252
08-03-2013, 03:40 PM
I would beg to differ. I'd say it's right in the middle of the pack in this regard. Some quick research shows that roughly half the organizations in baseball half a comparable, or better, 1/2 as Meyer/Stewart, rankings wise.

Half the teams in baseball have two pitchers in the top 30-40 prospects in baseball? I'm not very good at math but if you add in all the bats, in say the top 50, I don't see it.

Mr. Brooks
08-03-2013, 03:48 PM
Half the teams in baseball have two pitchers in the top 30-40 prospects in baseball? I'm not very good at math but if you add in all the bats, in say the top 50, I don't see it.

I'm going off Jonathan Mayo's rankings, in which case Meyer and Stewart are in the top 70. I wasn't aware that someone had them ranked both in the top 40. In that case you are probably correct.

cmb0252
08-03-2013, 04:03 PM
I'm going off Jonathan Mayo's rankings, in which case Meyer and Stewart are in the top 70. I wasn't aware that someone had them ranked both in the top 40. In that case you are probably correct.

I forgot about Mayo's ranking so i guess we are both right (wrong?). Jim Callis and Law both had Stewart at 30. Callis has Meyers at 32 while Law has him at 38.

I might be biased but I just don't see many pairs I like better than Meyer/Stewart. Bundy/Gausman would be better if Bundy wasn't out for a year+. Cole/Tallion but Cole will lose his prospect status this year. Gray/Butler maybe. Skaggs and Hutlzen have taken a step back so their paring with Walker and Bradley isn't as impressive.

Mr. Brooks
08-03-2013, 04:18 PM
I forgot about Mayo's ranking so i guess we are both right (wrong?). Jim Callis and Law both had Stewart at 30. Callis has Meyers at 32 while Law has him at 38.

I might be biased but I just don't see many pairs I like better than Meyer/Stewart. Bundy/Gausman would be better if Bundy wasn't out for a year+. Cole/Tallion but Cole will lose his prospect status this year. Gray/Butler maybe. Skaggs and Hutlzen have taken a step back so their paring with Walker and Bradley isn't as impressive.

Wacha/Martinez don't even get a mention? That's the duo I'd take over all of them. (except Bundy/ Gausman, injury or no injury)
I'd also take Wheeler/Syndergaard and Appel/McCullers over Meyer/Stewart.
Surprised none of those duos get a mention.

Kwak
08-03-2013, 04:37 PM
While I would have to agree the Twins should pay big money to recruit a couple guys that scout or develop talent for the Rays and As, our farm system is in great shape. I think you might have lost sight of the fact the Twins farm system is at the top of all of the programs in MLB. You need to find a new team to follow.

No, I don't! The fact that the list is devoid of upper MiL talent is indicative of the failures of the previous decade. We all hope (me too!) that the newly drafted pitchers (6/12 and 6/13) all pan out. But, they won't be in the majors soon and definately not soon enough. I won't bother with the failure rate of pitching prospects because that's obviously way too negative for you--so I'll just assume (like the rest) that these new guys all succeed. But, there is ample evidence to conclude that it won't be in two years. That means two more years of the same guys. If you're Ok with that--well great! Enjoy.
There will be BB in 2016 too and quite likely with a much better cast of characters than today.

cmb0252
08-03-2013, 06:51 PM
Wacha/Martinez don't even get a mention? That's the duo I'd take over all of them. (except Bundy/ Gausman, injury or no injury)
I'd also take Wheeler/Syndergaard and Appel/McCullers over Meyer/Stewart.
Surprised none of those duos get a mention.

I'm not as high on Wacha as most. Above average fastball, plus to plus-plus change up, but a average curve shouts mid rotation starter to me. His numbers have been good but I worry he won't be more than a #3 if his curve doesn't develop. I value upside.

Wheeler/Syndergaard combo I didn't consider because there is a good chance Wheeler will go over his rookie eligibility and won't be considered a prospect by the end of the year. If he doesn't than yeah, throw them in there.

As for Appel/McCullers I just don't see it being a better combo. Call it a personal preference. McCullers's mechanics and lack of a third pitch scares me.

John Bonnes
08-03-2013, 09:51 PM
Looking at these names, I'll admit, I'm happier than I thought I would be with these lists. While it's true there isn't much help on the immediate horizon, it looks like I can expect a couple of fairly promising arms every year from 2015-2018. That's encouraging.

Mr. Brooks
08-04-2013, 07:54 PM
I'm not as high on Wacha as most. Above average fastball, plus to plus-plus change up, but a average curve shouts mid rotation starter to me. His numbers have been good but I worry he won't be more than a #3 if his curve doesn't develop. I value upside.

Wheeler/Syndergaard combo I didn't consider because there is a good chance Wheeler will go over his rookie eligibility and won't be considered a prospect by the end of the year. If he doesn't than yeah, throw them in there.

As for Appel/McCullers I just don't see it being a better combo. Call it a personal preference. McCullers's mechanics and lack of a third pitch scares me.

Johan Santana became the best pitcher in baseball for half a decade with that combo.

kab21
08-04-2013, 08:21 PM
Wacha/Martinez don't even get a mention? That's the duo I'd take over all of them. (except Bundy/ Gausman, injury or no injury)
I'd also take Wheeler/Syndergaard and Appel/McCullers over Meyer/Stewart.
Surprised none of those duos get a mention.

You still aren't close to half and that is including guys in the majors.

Cole/Taillon - one is not a prospect
Bundy/Gausman - I don't care if bundy is injured - he's good
Gray/Butler - Butler is closer to Berrios imo
Bradley/Skaggs
Walker/Hultzen
Wacha/Martinez
Wheeler/Syndergaard - one is not a prospect
Appel/McCullers - mcculllers is again closer to Berrios imo
Barnes/Ball - one more to help you

mike wants wins
08-05-2013, 10:00 AM
Would you rather have Appel and ummmm, or Meyer and Gibson? I'd trade them both for Appel right now, I'd trade any two pitchers for Appel right now....All said, I think I like Pitt or Sea combos the best.

kab21
08-05-2013, 10:43 AM
Would you rather have Appel and ummmm, or Meyer and Gibson? I'd trade them both for Appel right now, I'd trade any two pitchers for Appel right now....All said, I think I like Pitt or Sea combos the best.

I would take Stewart and Meyer over Appel and nobody.

Badsmerf
08-05-2013, 10:44 AM
You all seem pretty cavalier about Meyer's arm injury. Shoulder problems are bad, and he hasn't pitched for 2 months. I'm pretty worried about his future right now.

Side note, we are still likely a month away from learning of a torn ligament needing surgery in his shoulder. If that happens I swear I will lose it. I'll ask Brock for a week ban just so I don't consistently freak out and swear every other word.

kab21
08-05-2013, 11:32 AM
You all seem pretty cavalier about Meyer's arm injury. Shoulder problems are bad, and he hasn't pitched for 2 months. I'm pretty worried about his future right now.

Side note, we are still likely a month away from learning of a torn ligament needing surgery in his shoulder. If that happens I swear I will lose it. I'll ask Brock for a week ban just so I don't consistently freak out and swear every other word.

Torn ligament in the shoulder. That does sound horrible.

mike wants wins
08-05-2013, 01:00 PM
Again, I am with the blue guy, and that's why I'd rather have Appel and random prospect than Stewart and Meyer right now. If Meyer was healthy, I would probably answer differently.

Willihammer
08-05-2013, 04:21 PM
Johan Santana became the best pitcher in baseball for half a decade with that combo.

Just to split hairs, Johan's slider was a very good pitch for him back in the day.

And I don't believe a changeup gets you as far as it used to, now that teams have learned to reverse-platoon in order to neuter it when guys can't offer a very good 3rd selection.

drjim
08-05-2013, 05:26 PM
Just to split hairs, Johan's slider was a very good pitch for him back in the day.

And I don't believe a changeup gets you as far as it used to, now that teams have learned to reverse-platoon in order to neuter it when guys can't offer a very good 3rd selection.

Also Santana had basically plus plus command of all his pitches. This is about as informative as all the Greg Maddux comps we hear.

cmb0252
08-05-2013, 06:38 PM
Johan Santana became the best pitcher in baseball for half a decade with that combo.

You can point to random exceptions all you want but the reality is that combo rarely gives you more than a #2. Heck, that comparison doesn't even fit. Last time I checked Santana was a lefty while Wacha is a righty, you know, unless the Cards taught him to throw with his other hand.