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East Coast Twin
07-27-2013, 05:16 AM
Interesting article about Terry Ryan's past history with deadline trade, especially last year's trade of Francisco Liriano.

Terry also claims the Scott Erickson trade to Baltimore was his best ever. Why? Because he had to shed payroll and found someone willing to take Erickson.

For Twins' Terry Ryan, the July nightmare scenario is repeating - TwinCities.com (http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_23739215/twins-terry-ryan-july-nightmare-scenario-is-repeating)

nicksaviking
07-27-2013, 07:49 AM
Nice link. Nothing better than an article that starts my blood boiling on a Saturday morning.

If this wasn't Berardino I'd think it was made up or a mis-quote. Our GM actually is most proud of the move that only helped shed payroll. Wow.

This gives little hope that the Twins will eat any of Morneau's contract in exchange for a better prospect.

Additionally, there is no rule that Liriano had to be traded right at the deadline, there were plenty of us saying last year that he should be moved ASAP before he had his blowup moment. Others were saying his value wouldn't have changed much, Ryan clearly believed it did.

old nurse
07-27-2013, 08:33 AM
Nice link. Nothing better than an article that starts my blood boiling on a Saturday morning.

If this wasn't Berardino I'd think it was made up or a mis-quote. Our GM actually is most proud of the move that only helped shed payroll. Wow.

This gives little hope that the Twins will eat any of Morneau's contract in exchange for a better prospect.

Additionally, there is no rule that Liriano had to be traded right at the deadline, there were plenty of us saying last year that he should be moved ASAP before he had his blowup moment. Others were saying his value wouldn't have changed much, Ryan clearly believed it did.

Context would be a wonderful thing here. Erickson was to be a free agent that winter, and pitching poorly. That the Twins were shedding payroll might also have been known.The comment would make more sense as to why he was proud of the trade if there was information like "we had no offers for him, little interest" etc. He could be proud he got something with promise for maybe a lot of work on his part.

jokin
07-27-2013, 09:04 AM
Context would be a wonderful thing here. Erickson was to be a free agent that winter, and pitching poorly. That the Twins were shedding payroll might also have been known.The comment would make more sense as to why he was proud of the trade if there was information like "we had no offers for him, little interest" etc. He could be proud he got something with promise for maybe a lot of work on his part.

In 1995 he traded 4 Twins pitchers, Aguilera, Erickson, Tapani and Guthrie for:

Rodriguez (5.20 ERA as a Twin)
Klingenbeck (8.30 ERA as a Twin- and a guy who thought air traffic controllers had a cushy job flying around in helicopters all day)
Coom-dog (or Barney Rubble, as Kirby called him. Twins OPS+ of 88)

Not an inspiring list to hang your hat on for all your hard work, I'd say.

big dog
07-27-2013, 09:24 AM
Context would be a wonderful thing here. Erickson was to be a free agent that winter, and pitching poorly. That the Twins were shedding payroll might also have been known.The comment would make more sense as to why he was proud of the trade if there was information like "we had no offers for him, little interest" etc. He could be proud he got something with promise for maybe a lot of work on his part.

Another significant problem was that Erickson was really complaining. Decent track record (high ceiling, high variability), but pitching poorly, paid well, and carping. I remember at the time thinking he had to go just to help the rest of the team concentrate on baseball.

Still, to claim that's your best trade? It's kind of like saying you had that used car that had been on the lot for years, people thought you would have to junk it, but you persuaded someone to give you $500 instead. I suppose you could say it was personally satisfying, but I don't really see how it helped the team other than addition by subtraction.

That was a ridiculously discouraging set of trades. Aggie made 30 appearances with Boston and was 20/21 in save opportunities- of course, people thought Frankie Rodriguez was actually a real pitcher. Oops. Tapani still had some gas in the tank, too.

Willihammer
07-27-2013, 09:34 AM
Ironically the whole reason Erickson was complaining was because the FO was pinching pennies.

big dog
07-27-2013, 09:38 AM
Ironically the whole reason Erickson was complaining was because the FO was pinching pennies.

That's basically what I remember, although I think the gist of it was that he thought they ought to be spending as much as the Yankees/Dodgers/etc- his scale did seem a little off. Going to the WS as a rookie can skew expectations, I guess.

Thrylos
07-27-2013, 10:01 AM
Well, bottom line of this article is that TR cannot make a decent deadline trade; but to be fair I'd put his Reed for Lawton and his Steward for Kielty trades up there. These 2 helped the Twins, but not his other deadline trades... Letting Thome go to just go, was pathetic too.

mike wants wins
07-27-2013, 10:12 AM
I think being most proud of shedding payroll says it all. Makes me sad, really. If just once he had tried to play for the present, they might have another World Series. But I do not think it is in him. You all keep saying, just wait, things are different now. But so far, three years in, it is mor of the same.

mike wants wins
07-27-2013, 10:13 AM
I would be most proud of Kielty for Stewart also, the fact he isn't? Wow.

jorgenswest
07-27-2013, 10:13 AM
In 1995 he traded 4 Twins pitchers, Aguilera, Erickson, Tapani and Guthrie for:

Rodriguez (5.20 ERA as a Twin)
Klingenbeck (8.30 ERA as a Twin- and a guy who thought air traffic controllers had a cushy job flying around in helicopters all day)
Coom-dog (or Barney Rubble, as Kirby called him. Twins OPS+ of 88)

Not an inspiring list to hang your hat on for all your hard work, I'd say.

In the Aguilera trade they received one of the better starting pitching prospects in Frankie Rodriguez. He was BBAs #36 prospect and had been listed as high as 9 in an earlier season. Aguilera was a rental and the Twins resigned him as a free agent the following winter.

Getting a top near major league ready starting pitching prospect for Perkins is what everyone is seeking. Those prospects don't always work out.

Winston Smith
07-27-2013, 10:16 AM
This quote was left out:
"We're into making money and the more payroll I can cut the happier the Pohlads are".

jokin
07-27-2013, 10:25 AM
Another significant problem was that Erickson was really complaining. Decent track record (high ceiling, high variability), but pitching poorly, paid well, and carping. I remember at the time thinking he had to go just to help the rest of the team concentrate on baseball.

Still, to claim that's your best trade? It's kind of like saying you had that used car that had been on the lot for years, people thought you would have to junk it, but you persuaded someone to give you $500 instead. I suppose you could say it was personally satisfying, but I don't really see how it helped the team other than addition by subtraction.

That was a ridiculously discouraging set of trades. Aggie made 30 appearances with Boston and was 20/21 in save opportunities- of course, people thought Frankie Rodriguez was actually a real pitcher. Oops. Tapani still had some gas in the tank, too.

Erickson was yet another example of trading a player at the worst possible time. Scott had a complete reversal of fortune that year for the Orioles, who bought Erickson at the absolute low-point of his Twins career (5.95 ERA/81 ERA+) to an amazing resurgence that same year for the Birds ( 16 starts/3.89 ERA/123 ERA+). And he gave them 4 very solid workhorse years after that, averaging around 230 IP/yr.

For that, TR got 77 innings and an 8.30 ERA from Scott Klingenbeck.

Oh, and for all that "hard work" and self-satisfied, self-back-slapping, Ryan saved less than half of Erickson's 1995 salary- a princely sum of $931,250.

PseudoSABR
07-27-2013, 10:40 AM
While there's plenty to be cynical of, I found this quote illuminating and reassuring:
"We're not into respectability," Ryan said July 13. "We're into winning ... and getting into postseason."

jokin
07-27-2013, 10:44 AM
In the Aguilera trade they received one of the better starting pitching prospects in Frankie Rodriguez. He was BBAs #36 prospect and had been listed as high as 9 in an earlier season. Aguilera was a rental and the Twins resigned him as a free agent the following winter.

Getting a top near major league ready starting pitching prospect for Perkins is what everyone is seeking. Those prospects don't always work out.

That would qualify in my book for the understatement of the day.

Rodriguez was a ML failure before he joined the Twins, when he was a Twin and after he was a Twin. In 7 ML years, he cracked below the 5.00 ERA line just once (4.63).

The author of the piece got it right, Rodriguez was extremely over-hyped, Ryan bought into that hype without kicking the tires a little bit more. As you stated, he was a BA top prospect, whose ranking was continually falling as he persistently failed to meet those lofty expectations with Boston. His suspect minor league peripherals and smallish physical stature just didn't make this a good bet.

Since you mentioned Perkins, his 3 most recent appearances hasn't helped his trade value any. I hope the Twins aren't tempted to panic by Perk's temporarily diminished value by another Frankie Rodriguez type, oh-so-tantalyzingly dangled in front of them.

Rosterman
07-27-2013, 10:46 AM
The bigger question is what will the player cost in the near future, and where do they fit in erms of the organization...now.

Justin Morneau...will cost money to retain, can be repalced by cheaper parts...but if you have the money, why not spend.

Jamey Carroll, Josh Roeincke, Mike Pelfry...if you can get an unproven yet promising low-level prospect in a position of need, do it.

Josh Willingham.....think if you just wish to shed salary. of course, who is playing the outfield...Herrmann, Parmelee...or do you advance Buxton.

Correia.....if you can shed his salary, do it. Really, you can repalce him with henriks for all I care.

Seems your best bet might be getting a worthwhile advanced prospect for Duening. Bring up Aaron Thompson in his place.

What is sad is that you look at the Twins 40-man roster AND Rochester roster, and you don't really see much worth in players that if you put them on a chart, won't be a Twin in 2014 or even 2015 (Parmelee, Plouffe)

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 10:48 AM
There is a big difference between Aggie and Perkins. Aggie was a pending free agent (as was Erickson) it sucks we didn't get some big haul back, but neither guy was some huge trade target for anyone at the time.

Ditto with Liriano. It's hard to get on Ryan too much about July deals, more often then not under Ryan the Twins are not in sell mode in late July.

jokin
07-27-2013, 10:57 AM
Another significant problem was that Erickson was really complaining. Decent track record (high ceiling, high variability), but pitching poorly, paid well, and carping. I remember at the time thinking he had to go just to help the rest of the team concentrate on baseball.

Still, to claim that's your best trade? It's kind of like saying you had that used car that had been on the lot for years, people thought you would have to junk it, but you persuaded someone to give you $500 instead. I suppose you could say it was personally satisfying, but I don't really see how it helped the team other than addition by subtraction.

That was a ridiculously discouraging set of trades. Aggie made 30 appearances with Boston and was 20/21 in save opportunities- of course, people thought Frankie Rodriguez was actually a real pitcher. Oops. Tapani still had some gas in the tank, too.

Just for my own masochistic fun, I looked up Mark Guthrie's post-Twins career. He pitched 8.5 more years and was anything from serviceably competent- to very effective- as a lefty RP over that span. The Twins saved about $400,000 for moving him in '95.

jokin
07-27-2013, 11:04 AM
The bigger question is what will the player cost in the near future, and where do they fit in erms of the organization...now.

Justin Morneau...will cost money to retain, can be repalced by cheaper parts...but if you have the money, why not spend.

Jamey Carroll, Josh Roeincke, Mike Pelfry...if you can get an unproven yet promising low-level prospect in a position of need, do it.

Josh Willingham.....think if you just wish to shed salary. of course, who is playing the outfield...Herrmann, Parmelee...1)or do you advance Buxton?

2) Correia.....if you can shed his salary, do it. Really, you can repalce him with henriks for all I care.

3) Seems your best bet might be getting a worthwhile advanced prospect for Duening. Bring up Aaron Thompson in his place.

What is sad is that you look at the Twins 40-man roster AND Rochester roster, and you don't really see much worth in players that if you put them on a chart, won't be a Twin in 2014 or even 2015 (Parmelee, Plouffe)

1) Yes! on Buxton
2) Yes! on Correia- Albers, Blackburn, Hendriks
3) Yes! on Duensing, add Swarzak (both are arb eligible)- Thielbar's emergence as a lefty makes Duens superfluous (his lefty split isn't good this year)-with P. Hernandez available when he comes off the DL, besides Aaron Thompson, this would also potentially open up a spot for Tonkin. I'd also like to find out if Ibarra is for real or just a flash in the pan.

big dog
07-27-2013, 11:19 AM
Just for my own masochistic fun, I looked up Mark Guthrie's post-Twins career. He pitched 8.5 more years and was anything from serviceably competent- to very effective- as a lefty RP over that span. The Twins saved about $400,000 for moving him in '95.

Those were dark days, no question about it. I was stunned when Guthrie was more or less thrown in with Tapani and sent to the Dodgers for practically nothing. Losing both in the same trade felt like just firing the pitching staff and completely giving up.

When he first came up as a starter, I thought Guthrie was going to be a very good pitcher- I loved his stuff. He never became what I hoped for, but he was definitely a valuable major league pitcher, before and after the trade.

LastOnePicked
07-27-2013, 11:29 AM
While there's plenty to be cynical of, I found this quote illuminating and reassuring:

I wish I felt the same way. Ryan says this an awful lot, but seems entirely incapable of making the changes to the organization that might make this happen. I'll be stunned if the Twins reach the postseason again under his second GM tenure, and this "July nightmare" scenario is one of the many reasons.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 11:29 AM
What are the odds we can trade Willingham? would he make it far enough in waivers for a team "in the hunt" like the Yankees or someone to put a claim on him? Or would teams like the Astros and other bottom feeders put a claim in to block everyone?

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 12:03 PM
Letting Thome go to just go, was pathetic too.

Really? I thought it was a decent thing for Ryan to do. Let an aging slugger and general all-around good guy go back to a team he wants to play for that had an outside shot at the playoffs.

Sometimes, life it about more than just squeezing the world for all it will give.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 12:05 PM
Since you mentioned Perkins, his 3 most recent appearances hasn't helped his trade value any. I hope the Twins aren't tempted to panic by Perk's temporarily diminished value by another Frankie Rodriguez type, oh-so-tantalyzingly dangled in front of them.

I think it's safe to say that Ryan has learned a couple of things since the Rodriguez trade that occurred nearly two decades ago.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 12:07 PM
I wish I felt the same way. Ryan says this an awful lot, but seems entirely incapable of making the changes to the organization that might make this happen. I'll be stunned if the Twins reach the postseason again under his second GM tenure, and this "July nightmare" scenario is one of the many reasons.

"Stunned"? They have a future HoFer on the roster, play in an incredibly weak division (that is only going to get weaker as Detroit's high dollar players age), and have the best farm system in baseball.

Frankly, I'd be stunned if they didn't see the postseason at least once in the next 5-6 years.

The Wise One
07-27-2013, 12:31 PM
In 1995 he traded 4 Twins pitchers, Aguilera, Erickson, Tapani and Guthrie for:

Rodriguez (5.20 ERA as a Twin)
Klingenbeck (8.30 ERA as a Twin- and a guy who thought air traffic controllers had a cushy job flying around in helicopters all day)
Coom-dog (or Barney Rubble, as Kirby called him. Twins OPS+ of 88)

Not an inspiring list to hang your hat on for all your hard work, I'd say.

Frankie Rodriguez was rated at 39 best baseball prospect at that time. The Red Sox also sent JJ Johnson who was a top 10 prospect in their system at one time. Hansell and Parra were both in the 10 ten prospects for the Dodgers. Bartee who was received as TPTBNL in the Erickson trade was rated as the 8th best prospect in the Oriole at that time. Would the lesson from those trades be then don't trade your veterans for highly ranked prospects?

benchwarmerjim
07-27-2013, 12:35 PM
remember, the 1995 season was shortened because the 1994 strike lingered into the next season . The Twins were 30-56 and 30 games behind 1st place by August 1, headed for 88 losses in only 144 games played. Trading off veterans (even to save money with a payroll of roughly $25 mil) was the thing to do that year.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 12:42 PM
Trading Jim Thome was done as a favor to Thome, and frankly the Twins had no reason to be giving at bats to him at that point.

big dog
07-27-2013, 12:46 PM
Frankie Rodriguez was rated at 39 best baseball prospect at that time. The Red Sox also sent JJ Johnson who was a top 10 prospect in their system at one time. Hansell and Parra were both in the 10 ten prospects for the Dodgers. Bartee who was received as TPTBNL in the Erickson trade was rated as the 8th best prospect in the Oriole at that time. Would the lesson from those trades be then don't trade your veterans for highly ranked prospects?

I'm certainly not opposed to trading veterans for highly ranked prospects. But being in a team's top 10 doesn't necessarily make you a good prospect- think about who was in the Twins' top 10 a few years ago. Matt Moses...Adam Johnson...

The reporter asked Ryan for a retrospective look at his best trades. In retrospect, we got nothing. They may have seemed like a good bet at the time, but they certainly didn't work out. Not one. When we traded Aguilera the second time, we got Lohse. That's a vastly better trade than any of these (even if I do risk hurting Coomer's feelings).

Saving the Pohlads money has never been a high priority of mine. I don't blame them for wanting more, but I really don't see cutting payroll as a benefit to the team itself unless the money is spent to improve somewhere else on the field. And it didn't keep Carl from offering to contract the team a few years later.

Kwak
07-27-2013, 12:47 PM
Erickson was yet another example of trading a player at the worst possible time. Scott had a complete reversal of fortune that year for the Orioles, who bought Erickson at the absolute low-point of his Twins career (5.95 ERA/81 ERA+) to an amazing resurgence that same year for the Birds ( 16 starts/3.89 ERA/123 ERA+). And he gave them 4 very solid workhorse years after that, averaging around 230 IP/yr.

For that, TR got 77 innings and an 8.30 ERA from Scott Klingenbeck.

Oh, and for all that "hard work" and self-satisfied, self-back-slapping, Ryan saved less than half of Erickson's 1995 salary- a princely sum of $931,250.

Maybe Ryan considers this his best trade because Pohlad praised and rewarded him? Words like: "Ryan 'knows' how to be a GM", or "Ryan's the guy". Ryan dumped salary and likely didn't complain a bit--just kept his mouth shut and did his assignments. Perhaps that's why he was brought back too? It appears to me that slashing payroll was his #1 job from when he came back. Winning? Since there is no schedule, any claim is spurious--just say "we do things 'the right way' here".

Thrylos
07-27-2013, 01:09 PM
Trading Jim Thome was done as a favor to Thome, and frankly the Twins had no reason to be giving at bats to him at that point.

The point is that Thome was not traded (in a trade you get something in return). He was given away. I have no problem with trading Thome for something. But he did not...

The Wise One
07-27-2013, 01:13 PM
I'm certainly not opposed to trading veterans for highly ranked prospects. But being in a team's top 10 doesn't necessarily make you a good prospect- think about who was in the Twins' top 10 a few years ago. Matt Moses...Adam Johnson...

The reporter asked Ryan for a retrospective look at his best trades. In retrospect, we got nothing. They may have seemed like a good bet at the time, but they certainly didn't work out. Not one. When we traded Aguilera the second time, we got Lohse. That's a vastly better trade than any of these (even if I do risk hurting Coomer's feelings).

Saving the Pohlads money has never been a high priority of mine. I don't blame them for wanting more, but I really don't see cutting payroll as a benefit to the team itself unless the money is spent to improve somewhere else on the field. And it didn't keep Carl from offering to contract the team a few years later.

I am well aware of what rankings mean. If you read jokin's post he would have you believe the Twins took in dog poop for star players. From said organizations, Ryan may have received their better players from the organization.
A concept of best trade appears to be very lost on the readers here. To Ryan the best trade is maybe what the most he got out of he could for a player. Erickson's value was at a low as it could be as someone speculated. Someone else speculated that no one else may have really wanted Erickson as he was to also be a free agent. Ryan probably had to do a lot of work selling that one. That why to him it was his best July trade. A steal like Kielty for Stewart was easy.

TheLeviathan
07-27-2013, 01:17 PM
What are the odds we can trade Willingham? would he make it far enough in waivers for a team "in the hunt" like the Yankees or someone to put a claim on him? Or would teams like the Astros and other bottom feeders put a claim in to block everyone?

Is there even a time table for his return yet?

The Wise One
07-27-2013, 01:21 PM
The point is that Thome was not traded (in a trade you get something in return). He was given away. I have no problem with trading Thome for something. But he did not...
A 40 year old player that father time finally caught up to is not in high demand. The Twins did receive cash. About what you would get to pay for 1/2 of a rule 5 player. That would be about right for a trade.

jokin
07-27-2013, 01:33 PM
I am well aware of what rankings mean. If you read jokin's post he would have you believe the Twins took in dog poop for star players. From said organizations, Ryan may have received their better players from the organization.
A concept of best trade appears to be very lost on the readers here. To Ryan the best trade is maybe what the most he got out of he could for a player. Erickson's value was at a low as it could be as someone speculated. Someone else speculated that no one else may have really wanted Erickson as he was to also be a free agent. Ryan probably had to do a lot of work selling that one. That why to him it was his best July trade. A steal like Kielty for Stewart was easy.

I said that, except it wasn't speculation. His 1995 numbers with the Twins were his career low to that point.

It was the Orioles that got the steal in that deal. He was so "unwanted", they quickly re-upped him well into the 21st Century.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 01:37 PM
To Ryan the best trade is maybe what the most he got out of he could for a player. Erickson's value was at a low as it could be as someone speculated. Someone else speculated that no one else may have really wanted Erickson as he was to also be a free agent. Ryan probably had to do a lot of work selling that one. That why to him it was his best July trade.

This. Sometimes, the work you're most proud of completing is not your "best work" from an outside perspective. It was the hardest work, the job where you pulled off something you didn't think possible. From the outside, it might garner a "sheeeeesh, that was ugly" reaction. From the inside, it was "holy crap, it was ugly but damn, we pulled it off".


A steal like Kielty for Stewart was easy.

I wouldn't go quite that far. It's an accomplishment every time you improve your MLB team without giving up much in return.

jokin
07-27-2013, 01:41 PM
If you read jokin's post he would have you believe the Twins took in dog poop for star players.

That's most certinaly not what I said.

What I said was ...actually.... "what I said", and those facts that I posted are what I would have you believe is what I actually said.

jokin
07-27-2013, 01:43 PM
The point is that Thome was not traded (in a trade you get something in return). He was given away. I have no problem with trading Thome for something. But he did not...

Clearly, Thome still had value, as the Phillies flipped him the next year for 2 legitimate prospects, a young pitcher and catcher.

jokin
07-27-2013, 01:44 PM
Frankie Rodriguez was rated at 39 best baseball prospect at that time. The Red Sox also sent JJ Johnson who was a top 10 prospect in their system at one time. Hansell and Parra were both in the 10 ten prospects for the Dodgers. Bartee who was received as TPTBNL in the Erickson trade was rated as the 8th best prospect in the Oriole at that time. Would the lesson from those trades be then don't trade your veterans for highly ranked prospects?

I think the lesson would be don't trade proven starting pitchers at their lowest value ever for 2 very speculative flyers.

jokin
07-27-2013, 01:48 PM
I think it's safe to say that Ryan has learned a couple of things since the Rodriguez trade that occurred nearly two decades ago.

That was kind-of the point of the article, and the head-sratching by Berardino. Has Ryan learned enough in 18 years to do better than what Ryan himself regards as still his most satisfying mid-season trade from all those years ago in 1995- which he fails to point out, solved absolutely nothing in making the 1996 (and beyond) ballclub better.

nicksaviking
07-27-2013, 01:52 PM
Sometimes, life it about more than just squeezing the world for all it will give.

Which is what many of us critical of Ryan and the ownership say, yet we get pounded by those who say that it's a business and they can make as much damn money as they want. Did you not read the reason why Ryan was most proud of the Erickson trade? You can't defend both trades with the same logic.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 01:53 PM
That was kind-of the point of the article, and the head-sratching by Berardino. Has Ryan learned enough in 18 years to do better than what Ryan himself regards as still his most satisfying mid-season trade from all those years ago in 1995- which he fails to point out, solved absolutely nothing in making the 1996 (and beyond) ballclub better.

It depends on perspective. Were Bernadino to ask "What do you think was the trade that netted the largest gain for the franchise?", I'm about 99% certain that Ryan would not mention the Erickson trade.

Sometimes, the hardest things and the things someone are most proud of are not the "best" things from an outsider's perspective.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 01:56 PM
Which is what many of us critical of Ryan and the ownership say, yet we get pounded by those who say that it's a business and they can make as much damn money as they want. Did you not read the reason why Ryan was most proud of the Erickson trade? You can't defend both trades with the same logic.

Why connection do the trades have with one another? I really doubt that Ryan woke up one morning and said "I sure would like to save my boss some money so I'm going to trade Scott Erickson". He was under orders to do something difficult and accomplished that goal. What does that have to do with Thome?

nicksaviking
07-27-2013, 01:59 PM
This. Sometimes, the work you're most proud of completing is not your "best work" from an outside perspective. It was the hardest work, the job where you pulled off something you didn't think possible. From the outside, it might garner a "sheeeeesh, that was ugly" reaction. From the inside, it was "holy crap, it was ugly but damn, we pulled it off".


This is another issue those critical of Ryan and the front office get pounded on. Ryan is most proud of something negative he dropped from the team as opposed to a trade where he added something positive. Yet his glass-half-empty viewpoint is getting defend by those who criticize others for having a glass-half-empty viewpoint regarding Ryan himself.

nicksaviking
07-27-2013, 02:06 PM
Why connection do the trades have with one another? I really doubt that Ryan woke up one morning and said "I sure would like to save my boss some money so I'm going to trade Scott Erickson". He was under orders to do something difficult and accomplished that goal. What does that have to do with Thome?

I was ok with the Thome gesture, but you were the one who said life was about more than squeezing every last dime out of a deal, something that Ryan clearly doesn't agree with judging by this article. In any case, Bill Smith traded Thome, not Ryan.

Riverbrian
07-27-2013, 02:10 PM
I had a job interview in Baltimore about ten years ago.

Before I was flown out for the interview... I had a pre-interview over the phone. The Guy had a list of out of left field questions prepared and he just went down the list.

One of the questions I was asked was: What is the stupidest thing I have ever done?

He was just trying to get an idea about my personality before paying the airline and hotel costs to bring me to Baltimore.

I have done hundreds of stupid things that would have painted me as a good guy... interesting and employable. But I hadn't thought about those things in quite some time and they were out of my immediate memory.

My mind immediately went to the really stupid things that I would rather not let anyone know about... On the spot... I had to roll past all of those things in my mind until something came into my head. In the end... I gave a wimpy little answer and uninteresting story.

After the phone call was over... I spent the rest of the day saying... I should have said this... or I should have said that. 20 different better ideas came into my head.

I was flown to Baltimore but my point is this.

If you answer questions off the cuff. Try not to place any weight in those off the cuff answers. Every individual is much deeper than that.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 02:11 PM
I was ok with the Thome gesture, but you were the one who said life was about more than squeezing every last dime out of a deal, something that Ryan clearly doesn't agree with judging by this article. In any case, Bill Smith traded Thome, not Ryan.

I can't count how many times I've been told to write code or design something by a client or a boss and said "Christ, this is an awful &^%$ing decision".

But I did it anyway.

diehardtwinsfan
07-27-2013, 02:11 PM
I said that, except it wasn't speculation. His 1995 numbers with the Twins were his career low to that point.

It was the Orioles that got the steal in that deal. He was so "unwanted", they quickly re-upped him well into the 21st Century.

I don't remember the terms of the contract, but he only had 2 decent years for them too.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 02:15 PM
This is another issue those critical of Ryan and the front office get pounded on. Ryan is most proud of something negative he dropped from the team as opposed to a trade where he added something positive. Yet his glass-half-empty viewpoint is getting defend by those who criticize others for having a glass-half-empty viewpoint regarding Ryan himself.

Would you rather have him say "Well golly, Bernie. I just liked 'em all, shucks."

What I don't understand is why every single comment by Ryan has to be dissected to the point of exhaustion. He mentioned that he was proud of a trade that happened almost two decades ago, early in his career. Is this really our talking point for the day?

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 02:16 PM
If you answer questions off the cuff. Try not to place any weight in those off the cuff answers. Every individual is much deeper than that.

Yes. Sometimes, an answer seems weird or half-complete when answered in 20 seconds or less. If you asked me about a work I was most proud of, I might give some oddball answer about some work I did as a teenager. Left at that, people might scratch their heads and say "What the hell is he thinking?"

I just don't see the point is making a big deal out of such an insignificant comment in a throw-away article.

nicksaviking
07-27-2013, 02:22 PM
I can't count how many times I've been told to write code or design something by a client or a boss and said "Christ, this is an awful &^%$ing decision".

But I did it anyway.

Then if asked, I'm sure you wouldn't say that was the code you were most proud of.

Marta Shearing
07-27-2013, 02:23 PM
As frustrating and insulting as Ryan's smug comments may be, he's not the problem. We have an ownership problem. Ryan is just a company man who wouldn't even have a job with a competent owner.

nicksaviking
07-27-2013, 02:27 PM
Would you rather have him say "Well golly, Bernie. I just liked 'em all, shucks."

What I don't understand is why every single comment by Ryan has to be dissected to the point of exhaustion. He mentioned that he was proud of a trade that happened almost two decades ago, early in his career. Is this really our talking point for the day?

Yes because it speaks volumes! He's not most proud of a move that improved the team. He's most proud of a move that saved money. Whether the move was demanded by ownersip is moot, he's most proud of it none-the-less. If the goal is to win ball games this did nothing to advance toward those goals.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 02:34 PM
Then if asked, I'm sure you wouldn't say that was the code you were most proud of.

It might be. It depends on how aggravating and challenging that particular job was in the first place.

I think people here are confusing "I wanted to do this" versus "I was told to do a difficult job and accomplished that task".

Beezer07
07-27-2013, 02:40 PM
Yes because it speaks volumes! He's not most proud of a move that improved the team. He's most proud of a move that saved money. Whether the move was demanded by ownersip is moot, he's most proud of it none-the-less. If the goal is to win ball games this did nothing to advance toward those goals.

I tend to take the most pride in doing something that was awful/difficult/whatever and doing it well. Can't he be proud for overcoming something that he thought was particularly challenging without us impugning the guy's character or priorities?

mike wants wins
07-27-2013, 02:46 PM
Maybe if he had made a trade for a DH, instead of having Becker and Tyner, maybe he would be proud of that. But unlike McPhail, Ryan did not ever go for it. Even under the same ownership and financial constraints. That is the point. Instead, because he did not do that, he is left with putting a million more dollars in his bosses pocket as his proudest trade. Certainly that has value, but not to the fans.

Thrylos
07-27-2013, 02:51 PM
It depends on perspective. Were Bernadino to ask "What do you think was the trade that netted the largest gain for the franchise?", I'm about 99% certain that Ryan would not mention the Erickson trade.

Sometimes, the hardest things and the things someone are most proud of are not the "best" things from an outsider's perspective.

Actually I have rethought it, and by far the best deadline trade (and would had paid dividents for the Twins, if Ryan did not screw up downstream; imagine a legit DH added to the Cy Young and MVP team) was Hollins for Arias. Hands down. But I suspect that TR would not like to visit that territory...

ThePuck
07-27-2013, 03:52 PM
Yes because it speaks volumes! He's not most proud of a move that improved the team. He's most proud of a move that saved money. Whether the move was demanded by ownersip is moot, he's most proud of it none-the-less. If the goal is to win ball games this did nothing to advance toward those goals.

At some point, some of us are going to have to realize that no matter what Ryan says or does (or doesn't do), there's going to be people who will always defend him in here. Always.

Some even go so far as to point to positive things he says as proof he's going to do something, while also telling us not to take his words so serious when it's something negative or unflattering. Then some go even farther to say when he outright says he'll do things he has no intention of doing, it was okay he said he would (like do everything he could to greatly improve the rotation this year)

At what point do one just stop trying to convince that have no intention of opening up to the possibility that sometimes he deserves to be criticized? Of course, that would cut about half the debates around here.

Beezer07
07-27-2013, 03:54 PM
Of course the corollary is true: there are some people who will always criticize TR. Always.

jokin
07-27-2013, 03:57 PM
I don't remember the terms of the contract, but he only had 2 decent years for them too.

Actually, it was 4.5 decent to good years for them.

ThePuck
07-27-2013, 03:57 PM
Of course the corollary is true: there are some people who will always criticize TR. Always.

I criticize his moves (or lack of moves, or tactic) and back other moves (like the Span and Revere trades). Plenty of people in here do the same exact thing. Very, very few who constantly defend Ryan actually criticize him on occasion.

jokin
07-27-2013, 03:59 PM
Of course the corollary is true: there are some people who will always criticize TR. Always.

Please cite examples. There are actually very, very few on TD who could be qualified as such. If we can agree that, "very few" = "some", then I will concur with you.

ThePuck
07-27-2013, 04:02 PM
Please cite examples. There are actually very, very few on TD who could be qualified as such. If we can agree that, "very few" = "some", then I will concur with you.

Seriously, think about it. The midseason trade he's most proud of is one that cut payroll, not the one who brought over a needed piece when we really needed it (Stewart). How anyone can defend the fact that he points to a payroll saving trade over a trade that did a very good job of improving the team? One really has to be trying very hard to keep Ryan in a good light if he/she does that.

jokin
07-27-2013, 04:10 PM
Seriously, think about it. The midseason trade he's most proud of is one that cut payroll, not the one who brought over a needed piece when we really needed it (Stewart). How anyone can defend the fact that he points to a payroll saving trade over a trade that did a very good job of improving the team? One really has to be trying very hard to keep Ryan in a good light if he/she does that.

I'm so glad you brought that up. That Shannon Stewart trade immediately came to mind to me when I first opened up this thread this morning. I was excited at the time of the deal, like a kid getting an extra and unexpected present for his birthday. In any "off-the-cuff", "hadn't given it much thought", "caught me unprepared", "my boss has a gun to my head so I'm just following orders", throwaway quote, Shannon Freaking Stewart would more immediately come to mind to the average person as an answer to the question, 999 times out of 1000.

mike wants wins
07-27-2013, 04:10 PM
Of course the corollary is true: there are some people who will always criticize TR. Always.

i cannot think of one person that is true of, certainly not me or jokin or the other "negative" posters. Most of us were quite complimentary of the Of trades this winter.

USAFChief
07-27-2013, 04:19 PM
I'm so glad you brought that up. That Shannon Stewart trade immediately came to mind to me when I first opened up this thread this morning. I was excited at the time of the deal, like a kid getting an extra and unexpected present for his birthday. In any "off-the-cuff", "hadn't given it much thought", "caught me unprepared", "my boss has a gun to my head so I'm just following orders", throwaway quote, Shannon Freaking Stewart would more immediately come to mind to the average person as an answer to the question, 999 times out of 1000.
Or Orlando Cabrera if you want a more recent example.

Edit: It just occured to me that Ryan didn't make that trade.

ThePuck
07-27-2013, 04:21 PM
Or Orlando Cabrera if you want a more recent example.

Edit: It just occured to me that Ryan didn't make that trade.

Cabrera wasn't a Terry Ryan trade.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 04:40 PM
At some point, some of us are going to have to realize that no matter what Ryan says or does (or doesn't do), there's going to be people who will always defend him in here. Always.

Some even go so far as to point to positive things he says as proof he's going to do something, while also telling us not to take his words so serious when it's something negative or unflattering. Then some go even farther to say when he outright says he'll do things he has no intention of doing, it was okay he said he would (like do everything he could to greatly improve the rotation this year)

At what point do one just stop trying to convince that have no intention of opening up to the possibility that sometimes he deserves to be criticized? Of course, that would cut about half the debates around here.

Or a third option where some of us don't come unraveled about an interview comment about a nearly 20 year old trade but instead try to judge the man upon his actions, both good and bad.

There are plenty of things Ryan does that deserve criticism (last February, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who had anything pleasant to say about his free agent acquisitions). Is this really one of them? An off-the-cuff throwaway comment about a trade that happened 18 years ago?

old nurse
07-27-2013, 04:42 PM
At some point, some of us are going to have to realize that no matter what Ryan says or does (or doesn't do), there's going to be people who will always defend him in here. Always.

.

Most of the time itis not defending Ryan as thinking what the person has written against Ryan is microscopically myopic and twisted and thus needs a response.

old nurse
07-27-2013, 04:58 PM
Or Orlando Cabrera if you want a more recent example.

Edit: It just occured to me that Ryan didn't make that trade.

I am sure some Oakland fan crowed about what a great flip Oakland made for their free agent aquisition.

Brock Beauchamp
07-27-2013, 05:01 PM
I'm so glad you brought that up. That Shannon Stewart trade immediately came to mind to me when I first opened up this thread this morning. I was excited at the time of the deal, like a kid getting an extra and unexpected present for his birthday. In any "off-the-cuff", "hadn't given it much thought", "caught me unprepared", "my boss has a gun to my head so I'm just following orders", throwaway quote, Shannon Freaking Stewart would more immediately come to mind to the average person as an answer to the question, 999 times out of 1000.

Unless you were the man who actually worked your ass off to do that trade. There's apparently something that stuck with Ryan about that trade or he wouldn't bring it up nearly 20 years later.

I've drawn more illustrations and coded more websites than I can count in my lifetime, some of which were for multi-billion dollar conglomerates that involved months of work. On the other hand, I've also done very small drawings and websites for local businesses.

My most difficult website was a sub-$1000 affair for an artist in LA. It almost reduced me to tears several times because it was so maddeningly difficult to develop and code. I nearly bailed on the project several times before deciding to stick it out.

If I was to line up the hundreds of websites I've coded and said to an outsider, "Pick the hardest site to create", they'd surely go for the Duracell site, one of the Polaris sites, or any number of other national/world brands I've worked with in the past. But no, the hardest site I've ever coded is a crappy little site for an artist who never even made it in the business and gave up trying less than two years after I finished the site.

Ask me which was hardest and I'll tell you it was that crappy little site almost every time. Ten years later, I still vividly remember the thing, more so than the vast majority of other, larger, better projects I've been involved with since that time.

The "average person" has a very different perspective on events than the guy who actually did the work. Whereas an outsider's only basis for "best" are results, there are moments and difficulties that we will never know about, stuff that must have really stuck in Ryan's craw to bring up nearly 20 years later. The man has made many trades, both good and bad. Some shed payroll while others acquired it. Obviously, there is something about this trade that makes it spring to mind during such a question.

And does this really matter? He was asked a frank question and gave an unexpected answer. To assert any kind of real meaning to this statement past "huh, must have been a hard trade to make" requires one to fill in some pretty large blanks.

old nurse
07-27-2013, 05:39 PM
Thanks Brock for illustrating what I wanted to say with the second post on this thread but couldn't think of an example that would make sense to the people. Throw away comments are grabbed onto and held onto here as proof of whatever position a person wants to take. They will not change their view regardless of your eloquence.

old nurse
07-27-2013, 05:53 PM
The pattern shown in this thread on deadline trades is why Ryan can't be agressive. The Twins did Thome a favor and got little in return. A year later Baltimore needed a bat off the bench. The Phillies did a little better than the Twins ( 2 players that have not progressed in the minors). Boston needed a reliever, Aggie was available. That the prospect did not work is irrelavent, Frankie was a decent prospect. The Twins wanted to dump salary, they trade Erickson and get little in return. When you don't have to trade your player and someone else wants them, your return will be much better.

diehardtwinsfan
07-28-2013, 07:09 AM
I think people need to settle down and try not to read between the lines on some of these comments. The Erickson trade was different for a number of reasons.

1) Small market team where the owner would order trades to reduce salary.
2) A malcontent player that everyone in the league knew was a malcontent.
3) Said player wasn't exactly performing.

Those situations right there make it pretty difficult to pull off a trade, and Ryan was under orders to do it. You won't get much, if anything, of value in that situation, yet somehow Ryan got it. Things like that need to be taken into context. I get that Ryan is risk averse when it comes to spending money, and I get that it's to a fault. I'm not sure that is what is in play here.

drjim
07-28-2013, 08:34 AM
Please cite examples. There are actually very, very few on TD who could be qualified as such. If we can agree that, "very few" = "some", then I will concur with you.

You realize this is true in reverse right?

drjim
07-28-2013, 08:35 AM
i cannot think of one person that is true of, certainly not me or jokin or the other "negative" posters. Most of us were quite complimentary of the Of trades this winter.

Think harder.

drjim
07-28-2013, 08:37 AM
I thought the Erickson response was fascinating myself. He was under direct orders to do something he probably thought impossible and he got it done. I can see how that would be satisfying, especially for a GM who was on the job for less than two years.

drjim
07-28-2013, 08:39 AM
I also think we're burying the lede here. The players he wants to trade are the same ones that are struggling right now, which will probably make a trade that much less likely (or satifying of a return).

mike wants wins
07-28-2013, 11:34 AM
Question....is every comment throw away? Like, telling ticket buyers he was going to do what it took to get pitching? Are we to dismiss everything he says as worthless and not worth discussing? There was an article in the paper, and we are discussing it.

mike wants wins
07-28-2013, 11:36 AM
I thought the Erickson response was fascinating myself. He was under direct orders to do something he probably thought impossible and he got it done. I can see how that would be satisfying, especially for a GM who was on the job for less than two years.

like I said, it has value to him and the owner, bur not the customers. Would be cool, IMO, if it was more about the customers. yMMV.

Brock Beauchamp
07-28-2013, 11:51 AM
Question....is every comment throw away? Like, telling ticket buyers he was going to do what it took to get pitching? Are we to dismiss everything he says as worthless and not worth discussing? There was an article in the paper, and we are discussing it.

I tend to ignore comments because a GM is also a PR face for the organization. They're going to spin a lot of stuff and talk fluff. I prefer to look at actions, which is why I was so angry after this past offseason. He failed to get enough pitching. Did I agree with his comments that went along with those acquisitions? No, not at all. I also didn't care about those statements... What I wanted was better pitchers and he didn't do it. I don't really care what he said to go along with those actions. The one exception is the trade market because frankly, it takes two to tango and sometimes a GMs comments can be telling about the market itself. But even those are hard to sort the fluff from the real information at times.

As it turned out, most of that "better" pitching hasn't actually performed much better but I still don't like the thinking that went behind the Correia acquisition (was actually pretty okay with the Pelfrey pick-up as a third move, not a second).

mike wants wins
07-28-2013, 12:24 PM
Fair enough, Brock generally I also ignore GM comments, but I found the comments to prospective ticket buyers to be pretty bad lying. I do not expect everyone to agree with that, but to me it was disturbing. Thanks for answering, btw.

Brock Beauchamp
07-28-2013, 12:29 PM
like I said, it has value to him and the owner, bur not the customers. Would be cool, IMO, if it was more about the customers. yMMV.

The question wasn't aimed at the customers. It was aimed at Ryan himself and he gave a frank answer.

It's be vastly different if the question was "what trade do you think improved the franchise the most?" and he answered "Erickson for Rodriguez". That would be... Strange.