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View Full Version : Sano sitting for a few days after how he handled himself hitting homerun



Erock
07-25-2013, 04:29 PM
According to Paul Molitor https://twitter.com/1500ESPNJudd/status/360441859874631680

This may be the video.
Miguel Sano Homerun - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QAc9SRdKz8)

Flipped the bat after ball left the park and then decided to head to first.

LimestoneBaggy
07-25-2013, 04:35 PM
Sure looked like he took a while to get out of the box after that one....then again, if I could hit one like that, I may get caught looking a little too long as well.

tcarlic
07-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Complete BS. The Twins suck and this is why. Anyone with any emotion gets benched? That was a big home run by a big dude. This "Minnesota Nice" **** is unbelievable. Bench possibly the second best player in the organization for doing what he does best? If I was Sano, I'd ask for a trade. Let the pitcher handle it next time he comes to the plate. Garbage.

tcarlic
07-25-2013, 04:41 PM
Jacque Jones used to flip his bat after every dinger. I specifically remember my dad and I doing it when he hit a couple game winners. I love the attitude.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2013, 04:46 PM
I can understand teaching players to respect their opponents, but sometimes I think this team goes a bit too far with that mentality. Not saying this occasion is an example, I don't know the conversations behind the scenes, but it's something I wish the organization would loosen up on in general.

Thrylos
07-25-2013, 04:51 PM
This is garbage.

(Especially since I will be seeing the Rock Cats at Reading this Saturday. Totally mad at Molitor if he does not play.)

The "Twins way" resulted in 99+96+9? , about time to appreciate players who show some emotion instead of players (and managers and general managers) who are ok with losing and go about their (losing) business as if nothing matters.

Total garbage.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2013, 04:52 PM
Wasn't Sano benched in Fort Myers in June for a few days for some sort of clubhouse issue?

Hope this isn't a sign of personality issues that may develop down the road.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2013, 04:55 PM
This isn't Sano's first offense here. Earlier this year someone tried to take his head off. I don't mind the attitude, but I really don't understand what gloating is going to do for you other than make someone consider tossing one at your head (I'm not advocating head hunting either, just recognizing that it's a reality). It brings nothing, and could potentially cost a lot.

But again, what value does excessive celebration bring to the game? I cannot think of anything, and I'd rather it be dealt with now than later.

tcarlic
07-25-2013, 04:56 PM
Hope this isn't a sign of personality issues that may develop down the road.


It's the fact that he has a personality. That's the issue here.

Thegrin
07-25-2013, 04:56 PM
I can visualize a coach running next to Sano screaming, "What the F*** are u waiting for ? Move your as*! We don't need no f**king statues out there!" etc etc etc

Monkeypaws
07-25-2013, 05:01 PM
That's showing up the other team - unnecessary.

It's one thing to clap and look happy running around the bases; to stand like a god and admire your homerun is a no-no, and an invitation for a little chin music next time up.

I don't have any problem benching players for this kind of behavior. Stamp it out before it becomes epidemic.

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2013, 05:01 PM
It's the fact that he has a personality. That's the issue here.

And I don't mind personality, as long as it doesn't become something that can be disruptive in the clubhouse and affect team chemistry. And I'm not saying that is the case here - but if they've seen something that they are worried might develop in the future, I can understand why they might want to address it early in his career before it develops into a problem.

This is all speculation, of course, as nobody here knows what was said afterward in the clubhouse and what the concern really is.

Steve Lein
07-25-2013, 05:04 PM
It took Sano 5+ seconds of admiring the blast before he took off jogging to first, that's a bit excessive.

So I'm okay with sitting him as a lesson, but don't want the Twins to take away that edge of confidence/attitude he has.

LimestoneBaggy
07-25-2013, 05:05 PM
It's the fact that he has a personality. That's the issue here.

Tcarlic/Thyrlos. I didn't get to see anything other than the above video, which doesn't show enough for me to make a particular judgment, but I'm with diehard here. Showing up a pitcher by watching a homerun or gloating in any manner just isn't viewed as acceptable by the general standards of all the teams (this should be viewed completely apart from my own belief that personality is completely different than being a jerk). Again, I'm not accusing Sano of anything here, I don't have any info, but speaking generally, the league self policies here and I have no problem with the Twins, in their judgment, adjusting attitudes to the acceptable norms.

I don't see how gloating makes you a better player either.

Winston Smith
07-25-2013, 05:16 PM
I bet 29 other teams would be happy to take whatever attitude he has. Maybe it's time to trade him, Gardy isn't going to want that in his clubhouse when he gets his new lifetime contract this winter.

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-25-2013, 05:16 PM
I feel like this is a trivial display. Doing this at the majors is probably very inappropriate, but a suspension is over the top discipline. Let's not tamper with his competitive spirit and confidence.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2013, 05:17 PM
Again, I'm not accusing Sano of anything here, I don't have any info, but speaking generally, the league self policies here and I have no problem with the Twins, in their judgment, adjusting attitudes to the acceptable norms.

I don't see how gloating makes you a better player either.

Agreed, but sometimes some gloating, showmanship, etc. comes with being aggressive and hard-nosed. The Twins could use a few more players with an edge to their game.

On top of that, most of the "self policing" is done in regards to the utterly stupid "unwritten rules" which are just a host of inane guidelines that discourage toughness and aggressiveness. Sano may need to be coached down a bit, but let's hope they don't neuter his edgy, confident play. I, for one, am very excited to have a player like that in our system with serious star power/talent potential.

big dog
07-25-2013, 05:27 PM
It's one thing to flip your bat and run the bases, it's another to stand there and watch until it lands. As others have said, you not only show up the other team, you risk possible career-ending injury (to you or perhaps the guy hitting behind you). Imagine some guy who knows he'll be lucky to make AAA much less the majors on the mound- he might not have a real great attitude about the event, and not much to lose.

Keep your personality, but keep it within the reasonable bounds of professionalism. AJ's survived in the league, there's a lot of room there.

Badsmerf
07-25-2013, 05:39 PM
I'm fine with the attitude, not fine with the action. If I was the other team... he'd be hit in the next AB. Try doing that in the pros, almost guarantee very next AB he gets hit, or the next batter gets hit. I watched the video and kept thinking to myself "shouldn't he be at 1b by now?" Nope, he flipped the bat and finally left the batters box after the ball had left the park.

No problem with sitting him a few days as a lesson. Just like I had no problem with Rosario sitting a few games. They are not bigger than the game, no matter how much talent and how well they do. Respect should always be given. I don't think Buxton will ever have this issue.

Seth Stohs
07-25-2013, 05:42 PM
Come on ya'll... this one (from the video, not even knowing what was happening other than he was watching it) absolutely should create some sort of punishment... that's not just watching it, that's flat-out showing up the opponent. Molitor was right in saying that it was embarrassing. Long-term, it's not a big deal. Learn from it, move on, and hit lots more home runs.

This kind of thing would absolutely create a dust-up in the big leagues!

Willihammer
07-25-2013, 05:43 PM
Again, I'm not accusing Sano of anything here, I don't have any info, but speaking generally, the league self policies here and I have no problem with the Twins, in their judgment, adjusting attitudes to the acceptable norms.

One could argue that the game itself will iron this behavior out. Show up enough guys and someone will fire one up around your shoulder.

That being said, the kid is 20 and it isn't necessary to teach him every lesson the hard way esp. if there's a chance it could end up really setting back his career. I agree he needs to be punished.

Pius Jefferson
07-25-2013, 05:44 PM
Wasn't Sano benched in Fort Myers in June for a few days for some sort of clubhouse issue?

Hope this isn't a sign of personality issues that may develop down the road.

He did something similar but it was after being thrown at so Dougie Baseball gave him a pass.

Seth Stohs
07-25-2013, 05:46 PM
Notice the coaches and his teammates... That's telling. If the Twins let Sano get away with that, they lose everyone.

PseudoSABR
07-25-2013, 05:48 PM
Demanding that your players respect the game is NOT why the Twins have been losing the past couple of years. As Smerf suggests, ML pitchers wouldn't be happy with that kind of behavior, and Sano is putting himself in a position for retaliation (an thus getting hurt).

Monkeypaws
07-25-2013, 05:52 PM
Being competitive and confident in your abilities doesn't give you license to play the superstar. Would Harmon Killebrew do that?

Ncgo4
07-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Don't worry about Gardy, he'll be gone before Sano gets to the bigs. As to what Sano did, the delay getting to first seemed excessive and called for a response. You do not see the quality teams or players showing people up. I hate the Yankees but they don't do things like that. Neither do the Dodgers. Did Bonds? yeah, and I rest my case. Sano seems to have a lot of emotion in his game. That's great but it needs to be positively directed. A little showboating now and who knows what in 2 or 3 years. Remember, he was ejected earlier in the year for similar actions.

Oldgoat_MN
07-25-2013, 06:10 PM
Scottie Graham, running back for the Vikings on why he didn't execute some 'cute moves' after scoring a touchdown:
"I went to Ohio State. We were told to act like we've been there and we intend to be there again."

I always appreciated that about him.
Sano looks like that might be the last home run he ever hits.

There are a few MLB pitchers who'd put the next pitch to him in his ear. Then, I suppose, he might think it was a good idea to watch that last home run he ever hit.

diehardtwinsfan
07-25-2013, 07:10 PM
One could argue that the game itself will iron this behavior out. Show up enough guys and someone will fire one up around your shoulder.

That being said, the kid is 20 and it isn't necessary to teach him every lesson the hard way esp. if there's a chance it could end up really setting back his career. I agree he needs to be punished.

I don't think sitting him for a couple of games is going to set back his career or hurt his development. It seems appropriate. Actions like this have caused some pretty big dustups recently... If it happens in the pros, it's the type of thing that can 5 and 10 game suspensions for multiple players... and injuries on top of that.

jorgenswest
07-25-2013, 07:12 PM
The minor leagues are about learning and growing. Just part of the process. I appreciate that the Twins have the courage to discipline behavior for even the best of prospects. Far better for him to miss a game or two now.

It isn't just about this particular event. It is about expectations. Whether it be running out a batted ball, hustling on and off the field, arriving on time it doesn't matter. If the team has expectations that are not met, discipline like missing a game or two should follow.

drjim
07-25-2013, 07:22 PM
Sit him now so they don't even have to think of sitting him in the bigs.

I have to say I'm excited by the swagger coming through the system. It will do this franchise some good.

Mave
07-25-2013, 08:06 PM
Complete side note regarding the video-- Sano looks absolutely huge in the video. I have never seen him in person, but everyone mentions how huge he is. He looks to be as tall standing in the box as the pitcher standing on the mound in the video.

Jim H
07-25-2013, 08:16 PM
This is one place where the Twins do not deserve any criticism. I listened to Dan Barrerio try to play both sides of this issue on the way home from work. There is no real question, this what you should do when anyone, major league or minor league crosses the line. Set him down for a few days. Unless you really liked the behavior of the Manny Rameriez's of this world, I don't understand how anyone can be upset with the Twins, here.

The minor leagues is where kids learn how to play like major leaguers. They should also learn how to act like major leaguers. There are exceptions, but baseball players generally act like professionals. Unlike many football players and basketball players. I appreciate that the Twins do more than talk about their players acting professionally. This has nothing to do with curbing personality. Harmon Killebrew, Tony Olivia, Kirby Puckett, Kent Hrbek and many others had plenty of personality, but it didn't keep them from acting professionally on the field.

I agree with the previous poster, who said act like you been there before.

darin617
07-25-2013, 08:46 PM
Come on ya'll... this one (from the video, not even knowing what was happening other than he was watching it) absolutely should create some sort of punishment... that's not just watching it, that's flat-out showing up the opponent. Molitor was right in saying that it was embarrassing. Long-term, it's not a big deal. Learn from it, move on, and hit lots more home runs.

This kind of thing would absolutely create a dust-up in the big leagues!

I agree, Shame on you Miguel Sano for hitting a HR. You need to start to learn to play and hit the Twins way. We expect singles and doubles to the gap. Home Runs are a thing of the past and should be saved for batting practice and Home Run Derby's.

jokin
07-25-2013, 08:54 PM
I agree, Shame on you Miguel Sano for hitting a HR. You need to start to learn to play and hit the Twins way. We expect singles and doubles to the gap. Home Runs are a thing of the past and should be saved for batting practice and Home Run Derby's.

5 seconds and 5 steps to first base by my stopwatch and limited view of the video before he began his homerun trot. I'm surprised at the utter lack of an exuberant response from his teammates, especially in comparison to the reaction we've seen from big hits at the lower A level games and by the major league club. Is there a chemistry issue going on at New Britain? By the eye test, this specific behavior by Sano might deserve an in-game benching and MAYBE? one more game, but not several. There must be more to the story that happened behind the scenes in the manager's office to merit the additional discipline meted out.

LastOnePicked
07-25-2013, 09:13 PM
Sano's approach might be problematic, but so too is the organization's. First Arcia allegedly misses a call-up because he didn't run full out, and now Sano is benched for showmanship. Have the Twins ever heard of talking to their young players, and then trusting them with the next step? This continues to smack of an out-of-touch, old-school organization.

B Richard
07-25-2013, 09:37 PM
Papi part 2? He still haunts me on the New Britain website.

At the very least he gets the hell out of the twin cities once his contract is up, even if we somehow manage to offer him a lucrative deal.

What I just said was facetious at best, but it's a real fear of mine. Sorry I don't fully endorse the Twins way. Guess what, he's a 20 yr old kid from the Dominican. Was he out of line? Yeah. BUT HE IS A KID. People mature. I hope the Twins don't stifle his personality. I trust he will learn how to handle himself- the game often sorts itself out like that. I remember Harper pimping home runs in the minors. I just hope Sano doesn't get alienated by the "Twins Way", or as I often call it with much chagrin, pure vanilla. Please- can we have nice things? I don't want to see him go to New York or elsewhere and become Papi Part Deux way down the road.

B Richard
07-25-2013, 09:40 PM
And for all you old timers out there who curse the attitudes and kids of the next generation, how many of you knew that our own Harmon Killebrew was the man who was first widely known for standing at home plate, admiring his own home runs?

howieramone
07-25-2013, 09:52 PM
Sano's approach might be problematic, but so too is the organization's. First Arcia allegedly misses a call-up because he didn't run full out, and now Sano is benched for showmanship. Have the Twins ever heard of talking to their young players, and then trusting them with the next step? This continues to smack of an out-of-touch, old-school organization.I couldn't agree more. It's not like he's not wearing a batting helmet.:)

IdahoPilgrim
07-25-2013, 09:55 PM
Sano's approach might be problematic, but so too is the organization's. First Arcia allegedly misses a call-up because he didn't run full out, and now Sano is benched for showmanship. Have the Twins ever heard of talking to their young players, and then trusting them with the next step? This continues to smack of an out-of-touch, old-school organization.

It's possible that they haven't talked to them and are assessing discipline as the first step of correction.

It's also possibl that they have talked to them, and perhaps more than once, and that these disciplinary actions are a second or third (or more?) attempt to instill a proper professional attitude.

Since none of us are in the clubhouse, none of us know definitively which scenario is correct.

TheLeviathan
07-25-2013, 10:00 PM
I hope the Twins don't stifle his personality.

This is the key to me. I find it really amusing that someone suggested Killebrew would never do this, considering the dude loved to stand at the plate and admire his quite impressive handiwork. And who can blame him?

Keep coaching the kid. This may be a step that is necessary after (I'm sure) conversations behind the scenes have already happened. Just please don't take the edge of the kid is my thing. This organization has been hypocritically harsh on players who have some feistiness in their game. Cuddyer or Mauer or any other "aw shucks" good guy makes a goof and we don't do anything. Bartlett, Garza, and the edgier guys get run out of town by constantly being blasted for how they play.

Coach him to be a bit more mature and less insultingly showy...but please god don't take the edge off this kid.

B Richard
07-25-2013, 10:19 PM
Keep coaching the kid. This may be a step that is necessary after (I'm sure) conversations behind the scenes have already happened. Just please don't take the edge of the kid is my thing. This organization has been hypocritically harsh on players who have some feistiness in their game. Cuddyer or Mauer or any other "aw shucks" good guy makes a goof and we don't do anything. Bartlett, Garza, and the edgier guys get run out of town by constantly being blasted for how they play.

Coach him to be a bit more mature and less insultingly showy...but please god don't take the edge off this kid.

Well stated. I see similar shades of "attitude concern" with Arcia in this community if not our own beloved organization. I like guys who get after it and aren't afraid to show it. Done the right way, that's what competition is about. I don't have an issue with some chastising for this event, but one point that I think has been overlooked is that players often police the game themselves. Want to pimp a homerun? Expect one high and tight next time. Everybody eventually figures it out.

You can't fit a square peg in a round hole. I hope this organization handles one of the keys to our future with the utmost understanding.

darin617
07-25-2013, 10:38 PM
Twins fans don't worry about Sano's attitude. When he makes his MLB debut in 3 years he will have grown out of such things.

One thing I didn't see commented about by anyone but there may be some history with the pitcher. Does anyone even know who the pitcher was?

nicksaviking
07-25-2013, 11:05 PM
I don't like Sano showing up the pitcher but is this a league-wide standard practice? Surely there have been other minor leaguers who have behaved inappropriately after hitting a HR. Do other clubs utilize the same punishment?

This probably wouldn't be an issue if the Twins reputation for bravado suppression wasn't already assumed. A multi-game suspension doesn't seem in order here, more like a stern talking-to.

maxisagod
07-25-2013, 11:08 PM
For me, number one, this is a safety concern. I find the "Twins being too old school" comments funny. I'm not worried about the Twins being old school, I'm worry about every other team being old school and trying to throw one at his head, potentially ending his career before it started. Sano doing this pissed off other teams last year in low A. I remember it lead to a shouting match and people getting tossed. This year in high A he got a ball thrown at his head after doing the same thing. Even after that he's doing it in AA? People want him to go out the next game and face that team again? He's just a kid, he has a lot of fire, and thats a good thing, but this is a lesson that wasn't sinking in. Sitting two days doesnt take that fire away or ruin relationships with the team. It let Sano know the Org. takes his and his teammates health seriously. Hanson could use some at bats anyway.

Willihammer
07-25-2013, 11:29 PM
For me, number one, this is a safety concern. I find the "Twins being too old school" comments funny. I'm not worried about the Twins being old school, I'm worry about every other team being old school and trying to throw one at his head, potentially ending his career before it started. Sano doing this pissed off other teams last year in low A. I remember it lead to a shouting match and people getting tossed. This year in high A he got a ball thrown at his head after doing the same thing. Even after that he's doing it in AA? People want him to go out the next game and face that team again? He's just a kid, he has a lot of fire, and thats a good thing, but this is a lesson that wasn't sinking in. Sitting two days doesnt take that fire away or ruin relationships with the team. It let Sano know the Org. takes his and his teammates health seriously. Hanson could use some at bats anyway.

I tend to agree. We have enough guys getting hit in the face unintentionally (Rosario). We don't need to give opposing pitchers any reasons to throw at them intentionally. I just hoped someone has explained this to Sano.

jay
07-25-2013, 11:38 PM
I have no problem with a little swagger and going to the plate with an attitude each and every time. However, after you exert that dominance, it's time to put it in check.

Many of us take pride in the fact the Twins are/were respected for playing the game the "right way". Run out each and every ball, make good decisions, be a professional, play solid defense, etc. Recent squads and Gardy have both taken plenty of criticism for not being able to meet that expectation. We'd certainly like that expectation to be accompanied with more success, but it's not a difficult one to meet regardless of performance or overall talent.

It seems a bit hypocritical to now also criticize them for trying to instill a professional attitude.

JB_Iowa
07-26-2013, 05:48 AM
Minnesota Twins: Top prospect Miguel Sano disciplined, benched - TwinCities.com (http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_23733813/minnesota-twins-miguel-sano-disciplined-at-double?source=rss)

A few interesting comments at the end of Berardino's piece about "mental exhaustion"

clutterheart
07-26-2013, 06:08 AM
Why would moliter go on the radio and talk about this? Why is he showing up the player? This another reason I hope he never becomes the manager

LewFordLives
07-26-2013, 06:40 AM
I'm sorry, I watched the video and I don't get what all the fuss is about. He stood and watched his home run. So what. Major leaguers do it all the time. If it hurts the pitchers feelings than maybe he should try and get him out next time.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2013, 07:21 AM
A little humility never hurt anyone... I don't blame Sano, but he has got to learn and I doubt this is the first time he has done this. People need to remember he is still just a kid, it's good that they are nipping this problem in the bud now before it became some national talking point on espn when he is a star.

Anyone who thinks he didn't show up the pitcher is crazy. Hell in my adult league if you pulled that crap you would get thrown at, it's just how baseball is and always will remain, showing up the pitcher in any level is a big no no.

It's 2-3 minor league games, people need to relax a bit and get off the twins cases. I'm sure this happens all the time in the minors and we just don't hear about it

TheLeviathan
07-26-2013, 07:58 AM
Why would moliter go on the radio and talk about this? Why is he showing up the player? This another reason I hope he never becomes the manager

Its one of the best prospects in baseball....they couldn't duck the issue. Better to be straightforward.

mike wants wins
07-26-2013, 08:22 AM
It's only "showing up the opponent" because baseball is stupid. He hit a homerun. the only reason people can't stand his reaction is because baseball players have stupid unwritten rules about being happy you did something. I hate that about baseball. Hate IT,

diehardtwinsfan
07-26-2013, 08:47 AM
It's only "showing up the opponent" because baseball is stupid. He hit a homerun. the only reason people can't stand his reaction is because baseball players have stupid unwritten rules about being happy you did something. I hate that about baseball. Hate IT,

I'll ask the question again, but tell what good comes out of something like that?

TRex
07-26-2013, 08:48 AM
One final thing is that Twins officials often talk about how driven Sano is to become a great 'player' and not just a HR hitter. For example, the Twins have asked him to sharpen his defensive skills and he has (apparently) gladly done the extra work to the point that no one doubts his ability to start his MLB career at the hot corner. The Twins have also asked him (and all prospects) to work on his English, and he has taken it upon himself to even do (some) interviews in English.

I think it is fully possible that his 'struggles' at the plate in AA weighed heavily on him, and now that he is on a hot streak, he's just really, really excited! I also would not be surprised that, after watching the video, he did not realize the degree to which he stood up the pitcher and the other team. He may even be able to see the line he crossed, which I think is as much about his team still being behind after the HR as the grandstanding (I don't think we are even having this discussion if it was a walk-off HR, or one that gives his team a lead in the top of the 9th).

There are a bunch of other Sano HR videos out there, and it's interesting to compare his teammates reaction as well. In the others, his teammates spill out of the dugout to congratulate him and give him high-fives. He will also acknowledge the bat boy and sometimes do a special handshake. His reception after this HR was very icy, much like the faux one Morneau got after breaking his long HR drought.

Steve Penz
07-26-2013, 08:50 AM
For me, number one, this is a safety concern. I find the "Twins being too old school" comments funny. I'm not worried about the Twins being old school, I'm worry about every other team being old school and trying to throw one at his head, potentially ending his career before it started. Sano doing this pissed off other teams last year in low A. I remember it lead to a shouting match and people getting tossed. This year in high A he got a ball thrown at his head after doing the same thing. Even after that he's doing it in AA? People want him to go out the next game and face that team again? He's just a kid, he has a lot of fire, and thats a good thing, but this is a lesson that wasn't sinking in. Sitting two days doesnt take that fire away or ruin relationships with the team. It let Sano know the Org. takes his and his teammates health seriously. Hanson could use some at bats anyway.

I agree with Maxisgod because I support the "old time" school of thought. He should hit the ball and get moving. Also, if/when a player does that to a Twins pitcher then I think he should get a fastball to the back when he comes to the plate in future. I don't support going after somebody's head but I believe in sending a message. If Alex Meyer was on the mound for that and he did not plunk Sano in the back during his next at bat then might it be said that he is soft and does not have attitude and swagger? I DON’T mean hitting somebody for hitting a HR; that is crap. I mean for showing up my team. For those of you who say you support the attitude and the swagger that is watching an HR for an excessive amount of time then you really have to accept that he will get thrown at later. It is a trade-off because that is same attitude and swagger but coming from a pitcher.

LimestoneBaggy
07-26-2013, 08:56 AM
It's only "showing up the opponent" because baseball is stupid. He hit a homerun. the only reason people can't stand his reaction is because baseball players have stupid unwritten rules about being happy you did something. I hate that about baseball. Hate IT,

I actually love this about baseball. I'm with Lev on not wanting to coach away Sano/Arcia's edge (confidence is a good thing), but the chest beating garbage you see in other sports is just too much. I also draw a distinction between a little celebrating to entertain (see: end zone dance), vs. taunting (see: holding the ball back as you cross the end zone). But I can respect differing opinions here.

Edit: Thought of another good example: Arica's overhead celebration of a hit (think someone said it was an RBI thing), vs. watching a home run. For some reason, I think the former is good stuff/within the boundaries.

JB_Iowa
07-26-2013, 09:06 AM
It's a learning experience for him.

I'm sure it is a fine line between making sure players respect the "rules of the game" (even the unwritten ones) and crushing their spirit.

I, too, would prefer that Twins players should a little more liveliness in general but there are times to do that and times not to do that.

I think TRex is correct about his struggles at AA weighing on him. So a break may be good for him.

This points out one of the concerns I have with the abundance of minor league coverage. It's great that people are interested in prospects but we all need to remember that many of them are pretty young kids. Everything tends to get blown out of proportion by the blogosphere, commenters and yes, now the mainstream media too. Not sure that benching Sano (or a similar high end prospect) would have been even a blip 20 years ago.

mike wants wins
07-26-2013, 09:11 AM
I'll ask the question again, but tell what good comes out of something like that?


What harm comes? I think sports are fun, and we are sucking the fun out. The guy hit a homerun, he should be happy and excited. There is only harm because people have decided it is bad, for no real reason. It does not actual harm, other than people inside their head. How you react to an event is on you, not on the event.

nicksaviking
07-26-2013, 09:17 AM
I have no problem with a little swagger and going to the plate with an attitude each and every time. However, after you exert that dominance, it's time to put it in check.

Many of us take pride in the fact the Twins are/were respected for playing the game the "right way". Run out each and every ball, make good decisions, be a professional, play solid defense, etc. Recent squads and Gardy have both taken plenty of criticism for not being able to meet that expectation. We'd certainly like that expectation to be accompanied with more success, but it's not a difficult one to meet regardless of performance or overall talent.

It seems a bit hypocritical to now also criticize them for trying to instill a professional attitude.

I don't like showboating, but to be fair, those that are critical of the suspension are likely the same people who think that the Twins doing things the "Right Way" is either condescending, archaic or phoney and the "Right Way" is holding the team back from joining the modern age of baseball. I don't think there's any hypocrisy here.

Major Leauge Ready
07-26-2013, 09:18 AM
I read the entire thread and it seems to me people are ignoring there have been other issues with Sano. None of us are in a position to judge the discipline with the limited information we have but there is more to this story than this particular incident. As you said, his teamates and the 1st base coach were sure he had crossed the line. That is a very good indication on this specific incident without even considering preveious actions. Molitor, who is obviously much closer to the situation was not pleased with Sano's behavior when asked about it during his weelky interview on 1500. I am pretty sure none of us are in a position to question a guy with Molitors credentials, especially when he is far better informed than we are on the situation.

mike wants wins
07-26-2013, 09:26 AM
I've never thought hte "right way" as the right way. I think athletes have amazingly bizarre combinations of huge egos, and frail egos.

diehardtwinsfan
07-26-2013, 09:32 AM
What harm comes? I think sports are fun, and we are sucking the fun out. The guy hit a homerun, he should be happy and excited. There is only harm because people have decided it is bad, for no real reason. It does not actual harm, other than people inside their head. How you react to an event is on you, not on the event.

You didn't answer my question. I asked what good comes from this, not what harm. No good thing comes from showboating like that. None. Sano's (or someone else's) career can be ended as well. Even if it isn't, that doesn't provide any sort of strategic advantage over the opposing team. Nothing good can come from it.

maxisagod
07-26-2013, 09:40 AM
Oh and this is a minor point, but what if the ball hadn't gone out but just hit the wall? Longest single ever. On a hit like that Sano needs to be standing on second base.

E. Andrew
07-26-2013, 09:44 AM
This is one place where the Twins do not deserve any criticism. I listened to Dan Barrerio try to play both sides of this issue on the way home from work. There is no real question, this what you should do when anyone, major league or minor league crosses the line. Set him down for a few days. Unless you really liked the behavior of the Manny Rameriez's of this world, I don't understand how anyone can be upset with the Twins, here.

The minor leagues is where kids learn how to play like major leaguers. They should also learn how to act like major leaguers. There are exceptions, but baseball players generally act like professionals. Unlike many football players and basketball players. I appreciate that the Twins do more than talk about their players acting professionally. This has nothing to do with curbing personality. Harmon Killebrew, Tony Olivia, Kirby Puckett, Kent Hrbek and many others had plenty of personality, but it didn't keep them from acting professionally on the field.

I agree with the previous poster, who said act like you been there before.

Spot on. And, you'd obviously bench below-average minor-leaguer X for show boating. You need to correct idiots. But, then Sano does the same thing.... if you don't hand out the same punishment, you set a dangerous precedent. He's now above the rules, and the organization. You want him show up at optional workouts in the big leagues? Make him behave like everyone else now.

jokin
07-26-2013, 09:59 AM
Twins fans don't worry about Sano's attitude. When he makes his MLB debut in 3 years he will have grown out of such things.

One thing I didn't see commented about by anyone but there may be some history with the pitcher. Does anyone even know who the pitcher was?

???????Are you being ironically sarcastic? He better be debuting in September or sometime in 2014!

nicksaviking
07-26-2013, 09:59 AM
Spot on. And, you'd obviously bench below-average minor-leaguer X for show boating. You need to correct idiots. But, then Sano does the same thing.... if you don't hand out the same punishment, you set a dangerous precedent. He's now above the rules, and the organization. You want him show up at optional workouts in the big leagues? Make him behave like everyone else now.

It's a fine line, I'm not defending Sano as I didn't like the showboating, but I also don't want him transformed into a deferrential Minnesota boy-scout. However you said below-average minor-leaguers have been benched for this. I'm just wondering if people have examples of multi-game suspensions for this kind of bravado? A benching for the rest of the game seems like it would occur often, but do other teams other than the Twins have players sit multiple games?

twinsnorth49
07-26-2013, 10:16 AM
There has always been a dichotomy between confidence and arrogance, this is really just an issue of maturity in my opinion. Sano is definitely a confident young man, as he should be, his display however reeked of arrogance and nobody appreciates that.

The problem arises if he never learns the difference.

mike wants wins
07-26-2013, 10:16 AM
I did answer your question.....since no harm comes, other than how stupid ballplayers are about it, it shouldn't be an issue. I think it is fun to watch a relief pitcher show emotion when he strikes out that key guy. I just don't see the harm, and if there is no harm, it should be ok. This is like the NFL outlawing TD celebrations, some of them were fun, but because players feel "shown up" for no reason, they outlawed them. Just silliness, imo. It is entertainment.

twinsnorth49
07-26-2013, 10:31 AM
There's lots of ways to display respectful ways of emotion that still qualify as fun, start advocating this kind of thing however and the next thing you know we have the NBA.

He hit a HR, ok, he's hit them before, enjoy it but at least act like you've done it before.

big dog
07-26-2013, 10:36 AM
A few people have mentioned a "suspension"- I believe he's just sitting out a few games, he's not officially suspended. He sits on the bench, he keeps his paycheck, he supports his team- big difference compared to a suspension from a morale standpoint.

jokin
07-26-2013, 10:36 AM
It's a learning experience for him.

I'm sure it is a fine line between making sure players respect the "rules of the game" (even the unwritten ones) and crushing their spirit.

I, too, would prefer that Twins players should a little more liveliness in general but there are times to do that and times not to do that.

I think TRex is correct about his struggles at AA weighing on him. So a break may be good for him.

This points out one of the concerns I have with the abundance of minor league coverage. It's great that people are interested in prospects but we all need to remember that many of them are pretty young kids. Everything tends to get blown out of proportion by the blogosphere, commenters and yes, now the mainstream media too. Not sure that benching Sano (or a similar high end prospect) would have been even a blip 20 years ago.

The thing about his time at AA is, the "struggles" are actually luck-related more than his troubles adjusting to the Eastern League. His BB rate is actually 2% higher than at Ft Myers (13.9% vs. 11.9%), representing a 17% increase in his walk rate at New Britain. Meanwhile, his K rate is only slightly higher than with the Miracle (about 5%). He's slugging at a very, very, torrid clip- a .562 SLG -- if he qualified, that mark would rank him second overall in the EL!
His .895 OPS is just a blip behind teammate Josmil Pinto, who at .899 is 3rd in the EL in that category.
Furthermore, his isolated power rate of .331 is actually six points higher than with Ft Myers (.325).
Putting that in perspective, the qualifying leader in Isolated Power in the Eastern League is Allan Dykstra. His ISO is a full 55 points behind Sano, at .276!

The only big discrepancy that stands out is his BABIP of .237 (vs a .397 BABIP with the Miracle). So, he really hasn't been struggling, physically. Mentally, maybe, more a victim of his bad luck at the plate and being in the glare of the spotlight from the Futures Game hype and all the expectations of recently moving up to #3 in the BA rankings.

The article you linked to provides the bulk of the concern over Sano on this issue, JB:


"There is no time frame for Sano's return, Twins farm director Brad Steil said Thursday.


"Just a normal player-development decision," Steil said, declining to characterize the misdeed. "We have discipline for all sorts of things that we do. This is one of them. He's not going to play for a few games."

jokin
07-26-2013, 10:44 AM
A few people have mentioned a "suspension"- I believe he's just sitting out a few games, he's not officially suspended. He sits on the bench, he keeps his paycheck, he supports his team- big difference compared to a suspension from a morale standpoint.

See my post for the quote from Twins management on his "official" status.

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 10:48 AM
I really don't think Sano will ever learn this particular lesson. He did the same thing with Beloit, he did the same thing with Ft Myers, and now he's doing it with New Britain. And people still don't want the Twins to do anything about it? Whatever. Good luck ever being able to treat him like anything but a prima donna if you wait 'til he's in Minnesota to even try.

Going all the way back to the 16 yr old Sano in the documentary, he's come off as "me first" kid. Given his background, that's not surprising, but I don't have to like that he hasn't grown out of that yet and doesn't appear likely to.

I do think it's unfortunate for the fans who aren't getting to see his talent on the field while he's benched and if it costs his team some wins, his team mates pay an unfair price, too. Maybe sitting him a game and then dropping his butt to #9 in the order for a week or more would be as effective and still let fans see him hit. His ego might smart just as much from that as it would from a benching.

Either way, I'm not confident he'll ever learn this particular "lesson" and one day someone will put one in his ear.

I'm a Twins fan and I hope to be able to watch Sano's talent on display in a Twins uniform for a long time. But I don't have to "like" every Twins player, regardless of their talent. I'm a big Byron Buxton fan, but I am starting to think I may never really like Sano beyond simply for what he can accomplish statistically for my particular favorite team.

roger
07-26-2013, 10:54 AM
Didn't he hit one last year against Cedar Rapids that led to a bench clearing brawl?

jokin
07-26-2013, 10:59 AM
I really don't think Sano will ever learn this particular lesson. He did the same thing with Beloit, he did the same thing with Ft Myers, and now he's doing it with New Britain. And people still don't want the Twins to do anything about it? Whatever. Good luck ever being able to treat him like anything but a prima donna if you wait 'til he's in Minnesota to even try.

Going all the way back to the 16 yr old Sano in the documentary, he's come off as "me first" kid. Given his background, that's not surprising, but I don't have to like that he hasn't grown out of that yet and doesn't appear likely to.

I do think it's unfortunate for the fans who aren't getting to see his talent on the field while he's benched and if it costs his team some wins, his team mates pay an unfair price, too. Maybe sitting him a game and then dropping his butt to #9 in the order for a week or more would be as effective and still let fans see him hit. His ego might smart just as much from that as it would from a benching.

Either way, I'm not confident he'll ever learn this particular "lesson" and one day someone will put one in his ear.

I'm a Twins fan and I hope to be able to watch Sano's talent on display in a Twins uniform for a long time. But I don't have to "like" every Twins player, regardless of their talent. I'm a big Byron Buxton fan, but I am starting to think I may never really like Sano beyond simply for what he can accomplish statistically for my particular favorite team.

And what's so wrong with that? It seems like once-in-a-generation talent is already being written off by a certain segment of Twins fandom. Gee whiz, he's 20 with an enormous set of talent, who has worked hard to get his fielding to the point that the Twins are now saying that fielding is one of his strong points, not a hindrance to promotion. His ego to this point is not what's holding him back, it's a basic element essential in how he got to this point in the first place.

I'm guessing 29 other teams have already heard from his agent....and gladly took the call. Like other great talents (but lesser than Sano...Ortiz, Garza, Lohse, etc.), look for the exasperated Twins to be moving Sano during his arb years for less than full realized value. Ouch!

cmathewson
07-26-2013, 11:33 AM
I would be upset about this if it was the first time he's done something like this this year. But he had a similar incident in Fort Myers and I'm sure the Twins thought that he was past all that after his last discipline.

All that said, I saw Torii Hunter flip his bat that way in a Twins uniform at least 100 times. So I can't say what so bad about it. He does need to jog and not trot, though.

TwinsFanInPhilly
07-26-2013, 11:33 AM
Gee - the usual suspects on both sides taking their arguments to the extremes. How refreshing!

nicksaviking
07-26-2013, 11:43 AM
I'm a Twins fan and I hope to be able to watch Sano's talent on display in a Twins uniform for a long time. But I don't have to "like" every Twins player, regardless of their talent. I'm a big Byron Buxton fan, but I am starting to think I may never really like Sano beyond simply for what he can accomplish statistically for my particular favorite team.

Yeah, I want every Twins player to be an upstanding citizen and humble humanitarian, but I think we all understand it's not going to happen.

I don't want Sano to behave like Manny Rameriz, but if that type of attitude helps to enable that kind of production and ability to come through in the clutch to win big games, I'll definately take the trade off.

Even if he is hard to embrace due to his attitude, a successfull team is very easy to embrace and he may be able to help in that regard.

That being said, I don't think it's fair for us to assume he has a bad attitude. It's premature and an overconfident HR celebration probably shouldn't be admissable evidence.

jokin
07-26-2013, 11:51 AM
Gee - the usual suspects on both sides taking their arguments to the extremes. How refreshing!

Based on your "like", you've evidently cast your lot with one of those "extreme" sides. Rather than inflame the debate with needless trolling ("how refreshing!"), please state where you stand on the issue to add to the debate. One thing both sides agree on is that Sano is being counted on as one of the Centerpieces in returning the franchise to relevancy. This naturally means that passion and interest level would run high.

JB_Iowa
07-26-2013, 12:33 PM
The only big discrepancy that stands out is his BABIP of .237 (vs a .397 BABIP with the Miracle). So, he really hasn't been struggling, physically. Mentally, maybe, more a victim of his bad luck at the plate and being in the glare of the spotlight from the Futures Game hype and all the expectations of recently moving up to #3 in the BA rankings.

How you respond to "bad luck" is also part of growing as a ballplayer. And frankly, so is how you respond to being benched for a few days.

This episode and the resulting benching of Sano may very well tell us (and the Twins) a lot more about Sano than we know now.

I don't want them to take away all of his attitude. But there are players with a lot of attitude who don't showboat. Learning where that line lies is part of his maturation as a ballplayer.

And I want to reiterate my point from the end of my 2nd post. Modern media magnifies all of this in ways that we just wouldn't have seen in the past.

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 12:34 PM
roger, Sano did pimp a HR in Cedar Rapids last year and it resulted in some players getting in one anothers' faces a bit. Words were particularly exchanged between the Kernels catcher and Sano (though I wouldn't bet money either one really understood what the other was saying, given the language barrier involved). But there was no brawl, as such.

jokin, since you chided TFIP for "liking" my post, I guess you're suggesting my view is among those "extremes." Guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't think it's extreme to say that, from what I've seen of him so far, I don't much care for the way Sano behaves in this area and since I see no evidence of it being likely to change, he probably won't be a player I have any particular affection for outside of whatever value he may bring statistically.

nicksaviking, I do take issue with your last paragraph. First of all, as has been pointed out, this is not a case of "an" overconfident HR celebration. It's not a single incident, it's the most recent in a number of similar such demonstrations. Those multiple incidents... or even just a single incident, for that matter... would certainly be "evidence" of an attitude problem. Not proof, perhaps, but one's behavior is certainly evidence of one's attitude.

Kwak
07-26-2013, 12:42 PM
I am a bit more tolerant than many when it comes to "showboating"--but let's be blunt he isn't Miguel Cabrera, yet! Being a stud in minor leagues isn't nearly the accomplishment as in the majors. Considering his "failure rate" a subdued celebration is more appropriate. Besides is hitting a HR of that specific pitcher all that noteworthy anyway?

nicksaviking
07-26-2013, 12:54 PM
nicksaviking, I do take issue with your last paragraph. First of all, as has been pointed out, this is not a case of "an" overconfident HR celebration. It's not a single incident, it's the most recent in a number of similar such demonstrations. Those multiple incidents... or even just a single incident, for that matter... would certainly be "evidence" of an attitude problem. Not proof, perhaps, but one's behavior is certainly evidence of one's attitude.

You've seen him first hand so your assement has a bolder footing, but you mention this is one of a number of demonstrations. I would then assume the demonstrations are all on-field showboating related?

I'm not defending Sano, but I don't think his bragadocious HR behavior neccissarily translates to off field issues. As one poster mentioned, Killebrew was known to admire his HR swing. The ESPN tribute showed a usually pretty pokey Killebrew getting out of the batter's box. Particularly check the 1:38 mark.

Tribute to Harmon Killebrew (RIP) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2vQb0qEAQw)

Check out 1:41 on this Thome highlight:

Jim Thome Career Highlights - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLBzq3ySzG4)

How would that bat toss fly with the Twins brass?

I'm not saying Sano is a good guy, but chronic or not, I'm going to need more than his HR trot to make that decision.

Sconnie
07-26-2013, 12:55 PM
I don't think sitting him for a couple of games is going to set back his career or hurt his development. It seems appropriate. Actions like this have caused some pretty big dustups recently... If it happens in the pros, it's the type of thing that can 5 and 10 game suspensions for multiple players... and injuries on top of that.
Willihammer was worried about getting beaned would set him back, not getting benched.

jokin
07-26-2013, 01:00 PM
How you respond to "bad luck" is also part of growing as a ballplayer. And frankly, so is how you respond to being benched for a few days.

This episode and the resulting benching of Sano may very well tell us (and the Twins) a lot more about Sano than we know now.

I don't want them to take away all of his attitude. But there are players with a lot of attitude who don't showboat. Learning where that line lies is part of his maturation as a ballplayer.

And I want to reiterate my point from the end of my 2nd post. Modern media magnifies all of this in ways that we just wouldn't have seen in the past.

I think based on all the evidence presented, we can now both agree that the "struggling" supposition as a reason for his behavior has no merit. This behavior is evidently part of who he is throughout his professional career. I would be most interested in evidence being presented in how other teams have dealt with up-and-coming phenoms in similar situations. Especially one at his age and impoverished background.

As many others have stated, Harmon and many others have been guilty of the long, self-admiring pause at the plate after going yard. Some are beloved and model teammates and citizens, others, like Barry Bonds are outright pariahs. Again, he's 20, with almost singularly unique talent, most Twins fans are willing to put up with some attitude and a wait for more maturation if it means having spectacularly good talent on the field and being a significant cog in winning championships.

I would hope that Twins management assumes the role of Father-Figure concerning disciplinary issues and continue to let it be known to Miguel, that like a Father, the Twins will continue to "love" and care for Sano's continued developmental well-being unconditionally, knowing that, like a Father, no matter how many, or bad the mistakes might be, they still have his "back", at all times.

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 01:13 PM
nick, all I've personally observed is the HR pimping and the immediate fallout from that last year when he not only pimped the HR, but got in the catcher's face when he dared to express displeasure with Sano having done so. I also wrote about how he was patiently signing autographs for fans before the game, on the road, too... so I'm not saying he's some kind of "bad person."

There's a time and place for celebrating a HR and I don't even have a particular issue with a little excessive celebrating. A pitcher knocks you down and you get up and take him yard? Yeah... take as long as you friggin like to get around the bases. Make the SOB stand and watch you circle for 10 minutes for all I care.

Better yet, win an important game with that HR or at least put your team ahead in that game, then a little bit of pride showing as you circle is just fine with me. Win a World Series game with a HR and, hell, I'll come down on the field and stand next to you and we'll watch that ball sail together before you start trotting!

But dude, your team was behind when you came up and they're still behind when you reach home plate? Pimping that is doing nothing but saying, "hey everyone look at how great I am. I hit a meaningless HR off a pitcher who nobody will ever remember in a minor league game, but damn I'm good!" Are we really saying that causing a blip closer to the midpoint of a WPA chart for a AA game is grounds for showboating now? Not for me. And I'm just not a big fan of players, regardless of talent, who appear to be more about personal glory than winning games.

jokin
07-26-2013, 01:16 PM
roger, Sano did pimp a HR in Cedar Rapids last year and it resulted in some players getting in one anothers' faces a bit. Words were particularly exchanged between the Kernels catcher and Sano (though I wouldn't bet money either one really understood what the other was saying, given the language barrier involved). But there was no brawl, as such.

jokin, since you chided TFIP for "liking" my post, I guess you're suggesting my view is among those "extremes." Guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't think it's extreme to say that, from what I've seen of him so far, I don't much care for the way Sano behaves in this area and since I see no evidence of it being likely to change, he probably won't be a player I have any particular affection for outside of whatever value he may bring statistically.

nicksaviking, I do take issue with your last paragraph. First of all, as has been pointed out, this is not a case of "an" overconfident HR celebration. It's not a single incident, it's the most recent in a number of similar such demonstrations. Those multiple incidents... or even just a single incident, for that matter... would certainly be "evidence" of an attitude problem. Not proof, perhaps, but one's behavior is certainly evidence of one's attitude.

My point was every team has fans who have favorites, beloveds, pariahs and mehs. You seem to be saying that you have decided that, at age 20, Sano is destined, no....pre-determined to fall into the pariah category that you will be forced to put up with as long as he's producing. That, to me, is an extreme position in terms of personal characterization to take.

Manny being Manny can be distracting to downright annoying, even to his own team's fans. His tenure's at Cleveland and Boston both lasted 8 years apiece- so I guess that shows how long before a welcome is worn out. Of course, a .937 career post-season OPS with 29 HRs helps keep the Welcome Mat out a little longer.

All I'm saying is, let's not presumptively conclude that Miguel is destined to be Manny behaviorally. I, for one, am willing to put up with some level of annoyance and maturation issues to reignite a positive buzz about this currently moribund franchise's on-field return to relevancy rather than laughing-stock.

TwinsFanInPhilly
07-26-2013, 01:22 PM
JC I'd "like" your last post but I fear someone on my iggy list may pitch a fit over it.

twinsnorth49
07-26-2013, 01:28 PM
He's 20, 20 year olds do impulsive, self indulgent things, I see no reason to believe this is something that will necessarily continue, or hold him back for that matter. I also don't believe that if the team tries to get him to tone down the cockiness that it takes his edge away, that's an entirely different thing altogether. He's not going to turn into some Punch and Judy just because a team doesn't want him to show opponents up, please.

UCLA_YANKEE_COLA
07-26-2013, 01:32 PM
Trying to determine what kind of person 20 year old Miguel Sano will be in the coming years based off of watching him play in a game or two and watching a couple of fuzzy youtube videos is pretty silly.

I have no problem with sitting him but, as has been said several times in this thread, Harmon Killebrew did this ALL THE TIME. And he's widely considered one of the most likeable human beings to ever put on a uniform.

I'm not saying there are racial undertones to certain responses here but I would like to see an identical response if Kepler ever pimps a HR or if Kohl Stewart goes all Big Z after striking out a guy to end an inning.

Beezer07
07-26-2013, 01:34 PM
Why is it that a professional athlete, or even a college athlete, is considered "a kid," but a 20-year old in some normal walk of life, say, guy who works in an office and gets in a bar fight, isn't considered a kid? Just a pet peeve of mine...

PseudoSABR
07-26-2013, 01:38 PM
Why is it that a professional athlete, or even a college athlete, is considered "a kid," but a 20-year old in some normal walk of life, say, guy who works in an office and gets in a bar fight, isn't considered a kid? Just a pet peeve of mine...I think lots of people view them both as kids. Though, the whole legal adulthood thing gets in the way of how things shake out in the normal world.

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 01:39 PM
jokin, I don't think I've indicated anything is "pre-determined," unless nothing that a player does prior to his debut with the Twins counts for anything. If his behavior in this area doesn't change, he's not going to be a guy I have any particular affinity for. If the behavior changes by the time he's a Twin, terrific. I'd love to see that kind of maturity. But based on the three instances that I know of in roughly the past 12 months' time, I wouldn't bet money on it. It doesn't mean I won't cheer him on. Hell, I cheered for AJ when he was a Twin and that's just one example of many players I didn't particularly like, but had no qualms about rooting for when they wore a Twins uniform. Guess I never realized that was an extreme position.

Nick Nelson
07-26-2013, 01:41 PM
Haven't seen this linked here yet (apologies if I missed it). Reusse's column today sheds some additional light on the situation, and it's not good.

Twins need a coach from Latin America, pronto | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/217118051.html)


The identity of the pitcher had much to do with the extra pizazz Sano put into Tuesday's home run reaction. When confronted over this by Jeff Smith, the hard-nosed manager the Twins employ at New Britain, Sano basically told Smith that he would do what he choose after hitting home runs.

General Manager Terry Ryan was watching New Britain. He talked to Sano after the game and didn't get a satisfactory response.


Smith was given the go ahead to remove Sano from the lineup ... and who knows when the hard-headed future star and the hard-headed journeyman manager are going to solve their differences.

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 01:46 PM
I think some of you are also misrepresenting Killebrew. Sure it took him a few seconds to get the wheels turning when he hit a HR. But it took him almost that long to get out of the box when he hit a single! :)

jokin
07-26-2013, 01:47 PM
Haven't seen this linked here yet (apologies if I missed it). Reusse's column today sheds some additional light on the situation, and it's not good.

Twins need a coach from Latin America, pronto | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/217118051.html)

"Hard-headed future star" vs. "Hard-headed journeyman manager". On most clubs, it's obvious who wins that battle. In the MN Twins organization?, not so much.

I was calling for the Twins to have hired Ivan Rodriguez for the last 2 years. I think he'd set Sano and some of the other Latin ballplayers straight right quick, indeed. What's Omar Vizquel doing these days?

Alex
07-26-2013, 01:59 PM
Haven't seen this linked here yet (apologies if I missed it). Reusse's column today sheds some additional light on the situation, and it's not good.

Twins need a coach from Latin America, pronto | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/217118051.html)

I hope we're all getting more from the article than just more details on why Sano was benched.

Those details were included but it certainly was not the point of the article, IMO.

The organization has benched it's three best Latin American players recently and includes just one coach from that part of the world in its entire organization.

jokin
07-26-2013, 01:59 PM
jokin, I don't think I've indicated anything is "pre-determined," unless nothing that a player does prior to his debut with the Twins counts for anything. If his behavior in this area doesn't change, he's not going to be a guy I have any particular affinity for. If the behavior changes by the time he's a Twin, terrific. I'd love to see that kind of maturity. But based on the three instances that I know of in roughly the past 12 months' time, I wouldn't bet money on it. It doesn't mean I won't cheer him on. Hell, I cheered for AJ when he was a Twin and that's just one example of many players I didn't particularly like, but had no qualms about rooting for when they wore a Twins uniform. Guess I never realized that was an extreme position.

Thankyou. Your softening stance and additional qualifying information makes your original quote sound less extreme- additional context always helps clear the air!

The current situation with the Twins and Sano seems very resolvable with a little agent intervention and with the Twins hiring more coaches in the system with Dominican or at worst Latin American backgrounds.

(Also, thanks for all the work and information you provide to the community regarding the Midwest League.)

jokin
07-26-2013, 01:59 PM
I hope we're all getting more from the article than just more details on why Sano was benched.

That was included but it certainly was not the point, IMO.

The organization has benched it's three best Latin American players recently and includes just one coach from that part of the world in its entire organization.

Amen, brother.

maxisagod
07-26-2013, 02:04 PM
...
I was calling for them the Twins to have hire Ivan Rodriguez for the last 2 years. I think he'd set Sano and some of the other Latin ballplayers straight right quick, indeed.

I think this is the most constructive comment you've made on this thread. One of the ways to future reach out to our Latin prospects (which seem to make up 50% of our top minor leaguers now) would be to hire more mangers and coaches at the minor and major league level. Having a David Ortiz type as your 1st base or bench coach on the Twins would help with a cultural and language wall. unfortunately they don't have that right now and Sano needs to learn that isn't always going to be available for him. That why he's working hard to learn English. The cultural challenges of playing Baseball in the USA I'm sure will be the focus on the next movie made about him.

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 02:05 PM
I hadn't seen Reusse's column, Nick, thanks for the link.

I think the point of the column is well taken. The Twins have needed more Latin American coaches for years and it is well past time to add one to the Twins' staff. I know a number of us have been writing that for years.

My understanding is that Jeff Smith has never been all that popular with a lot of players, regardless of nationality. Even so, if the report of Sano's response to Smith is accurate, there is no rationalizing flat out insubordination. No player... not even a Miguel Sano... can be allowed to be seen as being above being disciplined. You'll lose your entire clubhouse if that's allowed.

nicksaviking
07-26-2013, 02:11 PM
I think lots of people view them both as kids. Though, the whole legal adulthood thing gets in the way of how things shake out in the normal world.

Right, I'm pretty sure most people older than 30 consider people from 18 to their early 20's as kids. Sorry to stereotype, but it's difficult to have an adult conversation with many of them and their behavior in public when around alcohol too often warrent this consideration.

LimestoneBaggy
07-26-2013, 02:14 PM
Haven't seen this linked here yet (apologies if I missed it). Reusse's column today sheds some additional light on the situation, and it's not good.

Twins need a coach from Latin America, pronto | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/217118051.html)

Apart from the potential need for more Latin American coaches (which sounds like a good idea), reading this article made me sad. If it's accurate, it's one thing to pimp some home runs, but its quite another to go up against the manager and the GM. Ouch.

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 02:16 PM
"Hard-headed future star" vs. "Hard-headed journeyman manager". On most clubs, it's obvious who wins that battle. In the MN Twins organization?, not so much.

I was calling for the Twins to have hired Ivan Rodriguez for the last 2 years. I think he'd set Sano and some of the other Latin ballplayers straight right quick, indeed. What's Omar Vizquel doing these days?

I say put Ozzie Guillen on the Twins coaching staff. If fans aren't going to get to see good baseball, at the very least we deserve to be entertained!

John Bonnes
07-26-2013, 02:16 PM
For those who say this is no big deal or that the Twins are overreacting - I'd say watch the video. It is apparent how appalled people (his first base coach and teammates) are by him him standing and posing and flipping. It's not just that he flipped the bat.

He's 20. 20-year-olds do some stupid things. Discipline him lightly and move on. That seems appropriate.

Oh, and yes, the Twins could use some more Latin American coaches, I think. They seem to have gotten the message that international prospects are a market inefficiency. Now they need to figure out that fully taking advantage of that might mean reaching out to international coaches, too.

Alex
07-26-2013, 02:17 PM
Right, I'm pretty sure most people older than 30 consider people from 18 to their early 20's as kids. Sorry to stereotype, but it's difficult to have an adult conversation with many of them and their behavior in public when around alcohol too often warrent this consideration.

Baseball (and most sports) don't treat them like adults either until they're late twenties vets. Parmelee and Dozier are still called "kids."

mike wants wins
07-26-2013, 02:18 PM
I hope we're all getting more from the article than just more details on why Sano was benched.

Those details were included but it certainly was not the point of the article, IMO.

The organization has benched it's three best Latin American players recently and includes just one coach from that part of the world in its entire organization.

I agree with the sentiment of this post. I think the Twins have a problem.

JB_Iowa
07-26-2013, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the Reusse link, Nick. He makes some good points.

It also reminds me of the whole Miguel Cabrera saga. I was so glad he wasn't a Twin when he had the whole meltdown the final weekend in 2009 and again when he had the drunk driving incident in early 2011. But I also began to watch him more closely on the baseball field ... and began appreciating how very special he was as a player -- he became a favorite of mine before the 2012 MVP season. While I'm not equating Miggy's alcohol problems with all Latin players, Miggy's story also highlights some of the cultural differences.

The Twins took a great step into the international market. They need to have personnel in place all along the way to nurture that talent and those personalities .... not to think that they can turn them into clones of the Minnesota white boys.

jokin
07-26-2013, 02:21 PM
I hadn't seen Reusse's column, Nick, thanks for the link.

I think the point of the column is well taken. The Twins have needed more Latin American coaches for years and it is well past time to add one to the Twins' staff. I know a number of us have been writing that for years.

My understanding is that Jeff Smith has never been all that popular with a lot of players, regardless of nationality. Even so, if the report of Sano's response to Smith is accurate, there is no rationalizing flat out insubordination. No player... not even a Miguel Sano... can be allowed to be seen as being above being disciplined. You'll lose your entire clubhouse if that's allowed.

To me, this is the money quote from the column:

"And Sano ... well, if this team is more concerned about creating excitement than guarding against service time, there's a chance he will open as the third baseman in 2014.

It's not out of the question that the Opening Day batting order could start like this: 1-Aaron Hicks. 2-Rosario. 3-Joe Mauer (http://www.startribune.com/topics/people/joe-mauer.html). 4-Sano. 5-Arcia.

Which means, this team is in greater need for a coach with a Latin American background on its big-league staff than ever before."


The information about the recent past issues with Lanigan (and the importance in the Latin culture for "respect"), plus the one-side-only Anglo-American recounted version of events, both illuminated upon in this article, tells me that the club needs to expand its cultural awareness concerning these young, high-talent-and-ego, foreign players. (Look at the Zimmerman-Martin trial as an example of how 2 different sides see the exact same set of circumstances with diametrically-opposed viewpoints----AND, how differently the Dominican players play the game in the DR and at the WBC).

nicksaviking
07-26-2013, 02:22 PM
I hope we're all getting more from the article than just more details on why Sano was benched.

Those details were included but it certainly was not the point of the article, IMO.

The organization has benched it's three best Latin American players recently and includes just one coach from that part of the world in its entire organization.

It's tough, the Twins have long been thought of as a family that hires within it's ranks or recruits past employees. I'm sure the latin snub isn't intentional, but they don't seem to prefer much outside influence. They can't keep the Old Boys Club going forever hopefully.

jokin
07-26-2013, 02:24 PM
Thanks for the Reusse link, Nick. He makes some good points.

It also reminds me of the whole Miguel Cabrera saga. I was so glad he wasn't a Twin when he had the whole meltdown the final weekend in 2009 and again when he had the drunk driving incident in early 2011. But I also began to watch him more closely on the baseball field ... and began appreciating how very special he was as a player -- he became a favorite of mine before the 2012 MVP season. While I'm not equating Miggy's alcohol problems with all Latin players, Miggy's story also highlights some of the cultural differences.

The Twins took a great step into the international market. They need to have personnel in place all along the way to nurture that talent and those personalities .... not to think that they can turn them into clones of the Minnesota white boys.

And it also shows that people can change their behavior, and that fans can change their previous negative perceptions about that player.

PseudoSABR
07-26-2013, 02:25 PM
Sure would have been nice to have Rod Carew in the fold all these years...

mike wants wins
07-26-2013, 02:29 PM
It's tough, the Twins have long been thought of as a family that hires within it's ranks or recruits past employees. I'm sure the latin snub isn't intentional, but they don't seem to prefer much outside influence. They can't keep the Old Boys Club going forever hopefully.

It is very commone for privatlely held companies, especially those that go onto the next generation, to have problems with the old boy club. This is not uncommon at all in business. I guess we'll see over the next couple of years, but I think they are stuck in groupthink and way too isolated from new thinking. But maybe that's just an appearance, and they aren't....

ericchri
07-26-2013, 02:30 PM
No Ozzie, please, that sideshow doesn't interest me. A name mentioned in the comments for the Reusse column was interesting though: Omar Vizquel. I'll take him to coach my infielders, please.

jokin
07-26-2013, 02:31 PM
It's tough, the Twins have long been thought of as a family that hires within it's ranks or recruits past employees. I'm sure the latin snub isn't intentional, but they don't seem to prefer much outside influence. They can't keep the Old Boys Club going forever hopefully.

It may not be intentional, but it certainly is a blind spot that would have easily been discovered if the Twins would just have an outside consultant on retainer- to evaluate what "forest for the trees" details the club might be missing in terms of quality control and value-added additions in approach.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2013, 02:33 PM
If Sano is gonna be a punk about it to the manager,they should just let him do what he wants. Once he gets close o drilled in the head a time or two he will eventually learn. It's discouraging that he didnt show Ryan respect either, I love Sano and think he will special, but lets be honest, he hasn't done **** that matters yet.

If you become a star in the majors and have an attitude problem that is one thing, until that point just understand you haven't done **** yet and for every stud who makes it there is a Dallas McPherson and Brandon Wood who doesn't.

Very disappointed to hear he didnt give Ryan respect. Hopefully it's just an immaturity thing and this benching has reached him some humbleness. Then again, 20 year olds gonna be 20 from time to time, not worried yet....just aware.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-26-2013, 02:35 PM
Also if you hate your AA manager you can do something about it...just kick ass and force your self to AAA and the Majors. Stick it to him that way, not by arguing with him. Actions speak louder than words etc etc etc etc

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 02:36 PM
If I recall correctly, New Britain's hitting coach last year was Latino (or at least had a Latino surname and I made a possibily inaccurate assumption), but apparently was moved or let go in the offseason minor league managing/coaching reassignments.

cmathewson
07-26-2013, 02:38 PM
Sure would have been nice to have Rod Carew in the fold all these years...

If Rod wanted to work that hard, he'd have been here for years. But he's retired.

PseudoSABR
07-26-2013, 02:53 PM
If Rod wanted to work that hard, he'd have been here for years. But he's retired.I always thought he ended up with the Angels organization in some fashion, as a roving coach or whatever, but maybe I'm misremembering. My point is that it would have been nice to have a continued to Latin presence within the organization...

SD Buhr
07-26-2013, 02:55 PM
Just clicked around a bit. The Twins do have Latino coaches at both rookie levels. Henry Bonilla is the pitching coach at Elizabethton. Almost the entire GCL Twins staff (Rudy Hernandez, Ramon Borrega, Luis Ramirez, Riccardo Ingram, Ehren Wassermann) is Latino. (OK, maybe not Ehren so much). Pretty sure it was Hernandez that was hitting coach at NB a year ago.

Obviously, the GCL team is where you need a lot of Latino coaches, given it's the first stop for so many Latin American players when they come to the States. But yes, absolutely, the Twins would benefit from more of that presence at all levels.

Not that a lack of such is an excuse for blatant insubordination by a player.

jay
07-26-2013, 03:35 PM
Given how the Twins like to go in house, I was trying to think of former Twins that would fit the mold of a young, Latin coach.

The only guy I could come up with that has any sort of coaching experience is Juan Castro.

Who am I missing?

TheLeviathan
07-26-2013, 03:55 PM
Also if you hate your AA manager you can do something about it...just kick ass and force your self to AAA and the Majors. Stick it to him that way, not by arguing with him. Actions speak louder than words etc etc etc etc

Well, unless the coach at your level isn't giving good reports on you.

This has to be a two-way street. Sano has to respect and listen to coaching on how to mature his game and the Twins have to understand that part of his game is playing with an edge.

Given the organization's history over the last few decades, it warrants some watching to make sure we aren't trying to brainwash Sano into a Mauer clone. Don't think we're there yet though - they've been advancing the kid aggressively.

jokin
07-26-2013, 04:18 PM
Well, unless the coach at your level isn't giving good reports on you.

This has to be a two-way street. Sano has to respect and listen to coaching on how to mature his game and the Twins have to understand that part of his game is playing with an edge.

Given the organization's history over the last few decades, it warrants some watching to make sure we aren't trying to brainwash Sano into a Mauer clone. Don't think we're there yet though - they've been advancing the kid aggressively.

I like his accelerated promotion schedule this year, I thought he could have made the move to Ft Myers at some point last year. He seemed to be spinning his wheels in Beloit as the season progressed. Time has proven that he was more than ready to make the move to A+... let's say.... last July.

jokin
07-26-2013, 04:51 PM
Heavy Irony Meter alert!!!

Video: Miguel Sano of New Britain Rock Cats disciplined after 29-second home run 'trot' | masslive.com (http://www.masslive.com/sports/index.ssf/2013/07/video_miguel_sano_of_new_brita.html)

"If Sano were in the major leagues, his 29-second wandering of the basepaths would rank among the 10 slowest of the season, according to Wezen-Ball.com’s Tater Trot Tracker (http://www.wezen-ball.com/tater-trot-tracker/tater-trot-tracker/2013-tater-trot-tracker-leaders.html). Eight of the 10 slowest home run trots for 2013 have been recorded by David Ortiz of the Boston Red Sox (http://www.masslive.com/redsox/)."

twinsnorth49
07-26-2013, 05:00 PM
Well, unless the coach at your level isn't giving good reports on you.

This has to be a two-way street. Sano has to respect and listen to coaching on how to mature his game and the Twins have to understand that part of his game is playing with an edge.

Given the organization's history over the last few decades, it warrants some watching to make sure we aren't trying to brainwash Sano into a Mauer clone. Don't think we're there yet though - they've been advancing the kid aggressively.

If that means be yourself and play your own game I agree, if it's a suggestion that being like Mauer is somehow a bad thing because he's not demonstrative, I don't. I'd take another Mauer, thank you very much.

TheLeviathan
07-26-2013, 05:10 PM
If that means be yourself and play your own game I agree, if it's a suggestion that being like Mauer is somehow a bad thing because he's not demonstrative, I don't. I'd take another Mauer, thank you very much.

It means let him be himself. What I don't want is trying to put square pegs in round holes like we've done too frequently in the past. I don't have a problem with Mauer's demeanor, but I'd also like a few more guys on the roster with some edge/bravado.

raindog
07-26-2013, 05:12 PM
I really don't think Sano will ever learn this particular lesson. He did the same thing with Beloit, he did the same thing with Ft Myers, and now he's doing it with New Britain. And people still don't want the Twins to do anything about it? Whatever. Good luck ever being able to treat him like anything but a prima donna if you wait 'til he's in Minnesota to even try.

Going all the way back to the 16 yr old Sano in the documentary, he's come off as "me first" kid. Given his background, that's not surprising, but I don't have to like that he hasn't grown out of that yet and doesn't appear likely to.

I do think it's unfortunate for the fans who aren't getting to see his talent on the field while he's benched and if it costs his team some wins, his team mates pay an unfair price, too. Maybe sitting him a game and then dropping his butt to #9 in the order for a week or more would be as effective and still let fans see him hit. His ego might smart just as much from that as it would from a benching.

Either way, I'm not confident he'll ever learn this particular "lesson" and one day someone will put one in his ear.

I'm a Twins fan and I hope to be able to watch Sano's talent on display in a Twins uniform for a long time. But I don't have to "like" every Twins player, regardless of their talent. I'm a big Byron Buxton fan, but I am starting to think I may never really like Sano beyond simply for what he can accomplish statistically for my particular favorite team.
Geeze. This is so extreme. He seemed like an awesome kid in Pelotero, by the way.

He's young. He will learn.

jokin
07-26-2013, 05:14 PM
If that means be yourself and play your own game I agree, if it's a suggestion that being like Mauer is somehow a bad thing because he's not demonstrative, I don't. I'd take another Mauer, thank you very much.

Based on what we've seen thus far, Sano's approach and demeanor is the polar opposite of Mauer's. There has to be room for both in the line-up. The onus is on the Twins managment to make it work.

jokin
07-26-2013, 05:17 PM
Geeze. This is so extreme. He seemed like an awesome kid in Pelotero, by the way.

He's young. He will learn.

Yup. Good point on Pelotero. Let's wait until he at least turns 21 before we draw any sweeping conclusions on how the maturation process is proceeding./exaggeration to effect

twinsnorth49
07-26-2013, 05:17 PM
Based on what we've seen thus far, Sano's approach and demeanor is the polar opposite of Mauer's. There has to be room for both in the line-up. The onus is on the Twins managment to make it work.

Yes, I agree with that, let him be himself. It wouldn't hurt him to take a page from Joe's discipline in such areas however, that doesn't suggest making him a Mauer clone.

jokin
07-26-2013, 05:25 PM
Yes, I agree with that, let him be himself. It wouldn't hurt him to take a page from Joe's discipline in such areas however, that doesn't suggest making him a Mauer clone.

I agree with this, in principle. As Reusse alluded to earlier in his article, we can now envision a radically younger batting order coming as early as some point in time, next year: 1)Hicks/Buxton 2)Rosario 3) Mauer 4) Sano 5) Arcia 6)Hicks 7)Parmelee/Plouffe.

I hope it is in Mauer's makeup to break his quiet, but personally competent, responsible and accountable, persona and provide the strong leadership necessary to what looks to be a very, very young lineup.

jokin
07-26-2013, 05:32 PM
Adam Pettersen playing 3B and batting 9th for the Rock Cats tonight.

TheLeviathan
07-26-2013, 05:37 PM
Yes, I agree with that, let him be himself. It wouldn't hurt him to take a page from Joe's discipline in such areas however, that doesn't suggest making him a Mauer clone.

One might suggest Mauer could take a thing or two away from a player like Sano too.

big dog
07-26-2013, 05:39 PM
Carew- he's worked with Twins players in spring training for years, but doesn't want any regular season gig. The Angels broadcasters the other night said that he still did some work for the Twins, and didn't mention any relationship with the Angels at this point.

I believe Tony Oliva is also there, but of course he's quite a few ballplayer-generations removed from the current guys. And spring training is nothing like the regular season, obviously.

Old boys' club- that got shook up a bit last year. And Bobby Cuellar in on the staff now, though of course he's in the bullpen during games. Still, better than previous years.

Sano rivaling Ortiz' home run trots- I don't see that as a good thing, partly because Ortiz has an incredible track record to back him up, and also because both of Sano's legs still actually function.

I worry a little bit about the attitude, but I'm more concerned that he gets beaned and it wrecks his career and future health prospects. Saying that part of the game is "stupid" doesn't make it any less part of the game.

big dog
07-26-2013, 05:40 PM
One might suggest Mauer could take a thing or two away from a player like Sano too.

Such as?

AROG
07-26-2013, 06:03 PM
Firstly, I thnk having a flair for the dramatic is just fine. They handle it on the field, you show up a pitcher, you are probably going to get plunked. The Twins as a whole aren't big fans of that but it's not like Deduno got benched for showing up the Angels after his big strike out.

Secondly, He may not have been benched solely because of his slow trot. The coach didn't take him out of the game, he played the rest of it at 3B. It is very possible that he broke some other team rule. My supposition is that the coach tried to talk to him about it after the game, saying they don't need to get in a brawl because of the way he acted and told him that he was sitting him the next game so he wouldn't get beamed and Sano, like any 20 year old kid probably said something smart response, probably behind the coaches back, causing him to be sat for a few games. Ryan went out of his way in the article today to say how the two young stars in the minors were not just talented young men but great human beings.

It is far more likely that Sano said something immature that got him to ride the pine then just the bat toss. He did that in Fort Myers and their was no ill will. Not saying there is a in of truth to this, but hey, no source from the Twins says it was the bat toss, it could be other things.

big dog
07-26-2013, 06:04 PM
See my post for the quote from Twins management on his "official" status.

Your post said "He's not going to play for a few games." It didn't say he was suspended.

twinsnorth49
07-26-2013, 06:07 PM
One might suggest Mauer could take a thing or two away from a player like Sano too.

I think the evolution of all great athletes includes learning and adopting from other great athletes, in this instance I don't think a guy like Mauer has much take from Miguel.

jokin
07-26-2013, 06:18 PM
Your post said "He's not going to play for a few games." It didn't say he was suspended.

FWIW- I never hinted that he was suspended- or anything else. I just quoted Twins management.

Pitz
07-26-2013, 06:25 PM
This whole discussion and the bits and pieces makes me a little nervous about the relationship between the Twins (management and coaches) and Sano. Hopefully we are all only really making a mountain out of what is only a molehill. I know there are some great issues being discussed and appreciate the contributions, but hopefully the coaches/management and Sano are getting on the same page. Hopefully, Sano fully understands why he has been benched, the message isn't that he needs to lose his bravado, but that he needs to respect his teammates, coaches, opponents and the game. Hopefully, Sano respects the decision, learns from it, grows, and continues to work his tail off to be the best person and baseball player he can be. Hopefully the Twins win multiple championships with he and Buxton leading the charge. That's a lot of hopefuls, but with the current state of the big league club, what more do we have?

On another note, has there been any information about when Sano will return to the lineup? I just recently moved to the Philly area and have been really looking forward to seeing the Rock Cats for the first time in Reading this weekend. I already missed Buxton earlier this season when he had the thumb injury. It would be nice if I didn't have to miss Sano too.

jokin
07-26-2013, 06:30 PM
Firstly, I thnk having a flair for the dramatic is just fine. They handle it on the field, you show up a pitcher, you are probably going to get plunked. The Twins as a whole aren't big fans of that but it's not like Deduno got benched for showing up the Angels after his big strike out.

Secondly, He may not have been benched solely because of his slow trot. The coach didn't take him out of the game, he played the rest of it at 3B. It is very possible that he broke some other team rule. My supposition is that the coach tried to talk to him about it after the game, saying they don't need to get in a brawl because of the way he acted and told him that he was sitting him the next game so he wouldn't get beamed and Sano, like any 20 year old kid probably said something smart response, probably behind the coaches back, causing him to be sat for a few games. Ryan went out of his way in the article today to say how the two young stars in the minors were not just talented young men but great human beings.

It is far more likely that Sano said something immature that got him to ride the pine then just the bat toss. He did that in Fort Myers and their was no ill will. Not saying there is a in of truth to this, but hey, no source from the Twins says it was the bat toss, it could be other things.

On Reusse/Mackey today, they alluded to what Jiminy Crikket had posted previously. The New Britain manager has a history of problems working with young players and once had a season where an entire roster he was coaching rebelled against his leadership. (I haven't looked up the details yet). Reusse has done some research on the issue and seems to have come to the conclusion that we have a bad fit for Sano in New Britain and that the Twins need to get with the fact that all the uber-talented Latin players up and down the system are probably going to need to be handled with a different approach than now being employed.

I'm glad to hear that Ryan is providing a voice of reason here before this gets too out of hand. I will look to find the article you mentioned. Do you have the link?

AROG
07-26-2013, 06:41 PM
On Reusse/Mackey today, they alluded to what Jiminy Crikket had posted previously. The New Britain manager has a history of problems working with young players and once had a season where an entire roster he was coaching rebelled against his leadership. (I haven't looked up the details yet). Reusse has done some research on the issue and seems to have come to the conclusion that we have a bad fit for Sano in New Britain and that the Twins need to get with the fact that all the uber-talented Latin players up and down the system are probably going to need to be handled with a different approach than now being employed.

I'm glad to hear that Ryan is providing a voice of reason here before this gets too out of hand. I will look to find the article you mentioned. Do you have the link?

Here is Ryan's quote:
"The system is in good shape," Twins general manager Terry Ryan said. "We've got some players, and some are closer than others. The two kids in the Futures Game are certainly on a faster track. They're both very talented and highly skilled. And they're both good human beings, which is a good thing."

And the link:
The Minnesota Twins' farm system, now the second-best in baseball, keep getting better with the leaps of prospects Byron Buxton and Miguel Sano | twinsbaseball.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130725&content_id=54709860&vkey=news_min&c_id=min)

jokin
07-26-2013, 08:04 PM
Here is Ryan's quote:
"The system is in good shape," Twins general manager Terry Ryan said. "We've got some players, and some are closer than others. The two kids in the Futures Game are certainly on a faster track. They're both very talented and highly skilled. And they're both good human beings, which is a good thing."

And the link:
The Minnesota Twins' farm system, now the second-best in baseball, keep getting better with the leaps of prospects Byron Buxton and Miguel Sano | twinsbaseball.com: News (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130725&content_id=54709860&vkey=news_min&c_id=min)

Thanks, AROG. Good to see Ryan backing his kids unconditionally along with the Tough Love. It wouldn't have hurt Patrick Reusse's column to include additional context in the organization's publicly-stated opinion about how they regard Miguel Sano as a person.

notoriousgod71
07-26-2013, 08:33 PM
I hope Sano lays down and takes a nap after his next homerun, wakes up three hours later, and then meanders around the bases with his two middle fingers extended the entire trip around the bases.

notoriousgod71
07-26-2013, 08:36 PM
And if he pimps a homerun and a brawl ensues, lovely, Twins fans could use some entertainment. When was the last time the Twins were involved in a legitimate brawl anyway?

Thrylos
07-26-2013, 09:00 PM
Because there were not mentioned, here are a couple more facts about this:

- The pitcher was the ex-Rock Cat Bobby Lanigan. The same Bobby Lanigan who have had several altercations with Miguel Sano in New Britain including some in public and on record (and I am not sure that this is not part of the reason that Lanigan is an ex-Twin) So there was bad blood and Sano "spoke on the field" and he wanted to make an emphasis.
- There is a 7 game losing streak there. Seven. This weighs on a lot of people including the coach and the players.

Some not so factual things:

- Look at this celebration and look at the "Lambeau Leap" and ask yourselves which is more excessive.

- Look at what Sano did and remind yourselves of what Randy Moss did at Green Bay at that play off game. Ask yourselves which is more excessive. And if you are a Vikings' fan, ask yourselves whether that was not one of the all time Vikings highlights for you.

Different strokes for different folks.
And nothing is black and white.

h2oface
07-26-2013, 09:07 PM
A monster 20 year old has personality. Good for him. I see folks say it is not accepted baseball behavior, but support cowardly throwing at a defenseless batter for silly "I got your back" grade school maturity. Interesting. Once stoning was an accepted tradition. Hopefully, the Twins don't destroy Sano's spirit. There will be plenty of teams 'round the league that would love to give the boy a try.

MichiganTwins
07-26-2013, 10:22 PM
I never knew Sano hitting a homerun would prevent him from being a September callup..... But seriously how long is he going to sit. I want him to play now.

Beezer07
07-26-2013, 10:38 PM
Thrylos:

Why in the world are you comparing NFL celebrations to baseball celebrations? There is nothing similar between the NFL and AA, or even professional, baseball. The tradition, the attitudes, etc... are different. You might as well be comparing all the NBA showboating that's done after huge dunks during meaningless regular season games to MLB, for all the good it'll do ya.

Beezer07
07-26-2013, 10:39 PM
A monster 20 year old has personality. Good for him. I see folks say it is not accepted baseball behavior, but support cowardly throwing at a defenseless batter for silly "I got your back" grade school maturity. Interesting. Once stoning was an accepted tradition. Hopefully, the Twins don't destroy Sano's spirit. There will be plenty of teams 'round the league that would love to give the boy a try.

Not sure if you're serious...but if you are, this thread has officially gone from strange to completely off-the-wall crazy. Talk about jumping the shark.

TheLeviathan
07-27-2013, 09:36 AM
I thought Ryan addressed this perfectly on 1500 today. He went out of his wAy to praise Sano's makeup and stress tht they love his swagger. Just went too far this one time was the jist of it. Really an excellent response.

jokin
07-27-2013, 09:53 AM
I thought Ryan addressed this perfectly on 1500 today. He went out of his wAy to praise Sano's makeup and stress tht they love his swagger. Just went too far this one time was the jist of it. Really an excellent response.

Tough Love with unconditional love, yup, perfect. This may work out to be the best thing for Sano's maturity development.

Any mention of anyone else involved in the disciplinary process? Smith, management figures? Sano's agent?

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 10:45 AM
I thought Ryan addressed this perfectly on 1500 today. He went out of his wAy to praise Sano's makeup and stress tht they love his swagger. Just went too far this one time was the jist of it. Really an excellent response.

Yeah, and as mentioned, it would have been the slowest trot in major league baseball this year by someone not named David Ortiz. Also I don't think Ortiz "shows" anyone up on the trots, he is just slow as hell! No excuse for a 20 year old to be doing that and I'm guessing he learned his lesson moving forward.

Personally, I think this could be a great thing for Sano, let's see how he responds. Could come back stronger and more determined then ever.

Lev, I don't get the "Mauer could learn a thing" etc bit, Mauer is the 2nd best hitting catcher of all time. Yeah he isn't loud and brash but he doesn't need to be, I have never heard one player or management who has ever had an issue of how he is/was as a teammate.

Speak softly and carry a big stick applies to the Mega Hunk. Jeter is a pretty soft spoken guy as well and no one questions his "leadership"

JB_Iowa
07-27-2013, 11:51 AM
Lev, I don't get the "Mauer could learn a thing" etc bit, Mauer is the 2nd best hitting catcher of all time. Yeah he isn't loud and brash but he doesn't need to be, I have never heard one player or management who has ever had an issue of how he is/was as a teammate.

Speak softly and carry a big stick applies to the Mega Hunk. Jeter is a pretty soft spoken guy as well and no one questions his "leadership"

I think the concerns about Mauer's leadership -- and I've made no secret that I have them -- is that we just don't know how much of a leader he is.

We know that what leadership he does provide is done more through the example of his work ethic and his professionalism. But we don't read anything about him calling team meetings or him speaking out in the clubhouse, etc. In fact, what we have read is that he keeps to himself quite a bit (at least on the road) -- I think Morneau even said that he wasn't sure what Joe was doing most of the time when they are on the road.

His routine obviously works for him and, if there were other well-paid leaders in the clubhouse, it wouldn't be necessary to look to him for more. But Morneau has struggled and seems less vocal. Willingham has had a fair amount of injuries and doesn't seem to speak out either. Perk seems to provide some leadership -- at least the bullpen and probably starters as well. Doumit is a possibility but let's face it, none of them are paid, treated or respected by the fans in the same way as Mauer.

I don't think Mauer can change his personality but in the long run, I do think that the young guys coming up are going to need some veteran leadership in several areas: someone who is willing to police them a bit (and step down as necessary); someone who has some emotionalism and can inspire them as times get tough; and someone who can alleviate tensions and provide some comic relief and help them just have some fun (a la Mike Redmond). I don't think that one person can encompass all those "someones" but the Twins will need some veterans who are well-respected enough to do that. They should also be more than short-term rentals or one-year contracts.

Much of the frustration over Mauer's leadership is just that it is so darn quiet -- and I know, it's just not something he can really change because a real leader also has to stay true to himself or herself.

TheLeviathan
07-27-2013, 12:41 PM
Speak softly and carry a big stick applies to the Mega Hunk. Jeter is a pretty soft spoken guy as well and no one questions his "leadership"

I think Jeter relishes being "the guy" when it matters. I think Joe is good enough to be, but I'm not sure he wants to be. I think he likes being in the background more. (Which is natural for some people to do, so I'm not calling him a lesser player by any stretch)

A guy like Sano is going to WANT to be up down by 1 with a runner on in the bottom of the ninth. I'm not sure Joe does.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 12:51 PM
I think Jeter relishes being "the guy" when it matters. I think Joe is good enough to be, but I'm not sure he wants to be. I think he likes being in the background more. (Which is natural for some people to do, so I'm not calling him a lesser player by any stretch)

A guy like Sano is going to WANT to be up down by 1 with a runner on in the bottom of the ninth. I'm not sure Joe does.

Why doesn't Joe want to be that guy? It's funny how these things get assumed, if Mauers double at Yankee stadium a few years ago was correctly called fair instead of foul, and the Twins win that game (and series?) do these questions still get asked of him?

If Puckett doesn't hit the game 6 HR (the rest of the series he was pretty bad) so we assume he wasn't a "leader who wanted to be in that spot"?

It's hard to blame Mauer when he just really hasn't had the chance to "be in that sorta spot"

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 12:54 PM
I think the concerns about Mauer's leadership -- and I've made no secret that I have them -- is that we just don't know how much of a leader he is.

We know that what leadership he does provide is done more through the example of his work ethic and his professionalism. But we don't read anything about him calling team meetings or him speaking out in the clubhouse, etc. In fact, what we have read is that he keeps to himself quite a bit (at least on the road) -- I think Morneau even said that he wasn't sure what Joe was doing most of the time when they are on the road.

His routine obviously works for him and, if there were other well-paid leaders in the clubhouse, it wouldn't be necessary to look to him for more. But Morneau has struggled and seems less vocal. Willingham has had a fair amount of injuries and doesn't seem to speak out either. Perk seems to provide some leadership -- at least the bullpen and probably starters as well. Doumit is a possibility but let's face it, none of them are paid, treated or respected by the fans in the same way as Mauer.

I don't think Mauer can change his personality but in the long run, I do think that the young guys coming up are going to need some veteran leadership in several areas: someone who is willing to police them a bit (and step down as necessary); someone who has some emotionalism and can inspire them as times get tough; and someone who can alleviate tensions and provide some comic relief and help them just have some fun (a la Mike Redmond). I don't think that one person can encompass all those "someones" but the Twins will need some veterans who are well-respected enough to do that. They should also be more than short-term rentals or one-year contracts.

Much of the frustration over Mauer's leadership is just that it is so darn quiet -- and I know, it's just not something he can really change because a real leader also has to stay true to himself or herself.

Mauer was also the top QB in the state in HS and had a lifetime scholarship offer from Bobby Bowden to come be his QB at Florida State.

If you are a good enough "leader" to be a QB at a top program like FSU I sersiously think you are a a good enough "leader" for a baseball team.

It also should be noted the Twins haven't had a whole lot of "club house" issues over the years, the biggest one was a temp fight between Hunter and Morneau and the next largest one was Slowey and his attitude about the bullpen.

TwinsFanInPhilly
07-27-2013, 12:58 PM
If young Sr. Sano has enough swagger to pimp a meaningless HR, you would have to assume he also has the intestinal fortitude to not let a benching "destroy his spirit". Maybe I'm missing something (I usually am here).

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 01:00 PM
If young Sr. Sano has enough swagger to pimp a meaningless HR, you would have to assume he also has the intestinal fortitude to not let a benching "destroy his spirit". Maybe I'm missing something (I usually am here).
Benching/Punishing him actually may have saved his ass. I don't know if they were playing the same team the next day, but if they were and he was in the lineup he would have seen a few pitches by his head. I imagine since he is getting his "punishment" by a benching, that team will be a lot less likely to throw at him next game for "revenge" since the benching is punishment enough.

Also I guarantee they bench any other player that would have pulled that crap, you can't give special treatment to a guy, especially not this early in his career. That is how you end up with a Barry Bonds situation, and if you are going to be a dick like Bonds you sure as **** better hit like Bonds!

TheLeviathan
07-27-2013, 01:08 PM
Why doesn't Joe want to be that guy? It's funny how these things get assumed, if Mauers double at Yankee stadium a few years ago was correctly called fair instead of foul, and the Twins win that game (and series?) do these questions still get asked of him?

Maybe, maybe not. I won't deny it's a lot of speculation, but in my experience most humble, soft-spoken, "aw shucks" types are not lining up to be "the guy". Just not in his personality. Which isn't a slight against him, but I'd like some guys on the Sano end of the spectrum too.

TheLeviathan
07-27-2013, 01:09 PM
Also, I forgot to mention - Reusse said today that the pimped home run was in retaliation for some "dust-ups" Sano and the pitcher had while teammates with the Twins. For whatever it's worth.

D. Hocking
07-27-2013, 02:33 PM
I thought I also heard on one of the 1500 shows that when he was reprimanded by one of the coaches his response was less than ideal (possibly disrespectful). Terry Ryan was also there and talked to him, and it sounded like his response to Terry was not much better, and that might have led to the suspension, or at least to the multiple game suspension.

Yes -- they did say the pitcher was a recent ex-teammate and that contributed to the suspension.

Halsey Hall
07-27-2013, 03:25 PM
I thought I also heard on one of the 1500 shows that when he was reprimanded by one of the coaches his response was less than ideal (possibly disrespectful). Terry Ryan was also there and talked to him, and it sounded like his response to Terry was not much better, and that might have led to the suspension, or at least to the multiple game suspension.

Yes -- they did say the pitcher was a recent ex-teammate and that contributed to the suspension.

I read that when Jeff Smith talked to him about running the bases, Sano's response was something to the effect "I'll run the bases anyway I want to".

Ncgo4
07-27-2013, 05:07 PM
Jeff Smith is (supposed to be) the adult in this situation and he needs to get control of this. If it's necessary they should move Sano to Rochester before they lose all control of young Mr. Sano. This is the point in his career where his attitude is set. This does not seem like it's going we'll at all.

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 05:31 PM
Lol

Monkeypaws
07-27-2013, 06:02 PM
Look at Puckett - on the field, he was a Hall of Fame player, and he was beloved by teammates and opponents alike. If these reports are true, what Sano is doing is being a punk. You can't control peoples' personalities, but you can sure as hell enforce rules that keep a dink in check on the field.

I'm very disappointed by what I am reading here. Buxton has the modesty and temperament to be a true stud, Sano, maybe not so much.

h2oface
07-27-2013, 06:38 PM
It also should be noted the Twins haven't had a whole lot of "club house" issues over the years, the biggest one was a temp fight between Hunter and Morneau and the next largest one was Slowey and his attitude about the bullpen.

If people repeat something that is not true enough times, it may become the accepted truth. Slowey once again gets misrepresented. The management spin is still working.

h2oface
07-27-2013, 06:41 PM
Oh No! Samuel Deduno was quite demonstrative as he closed out the 7 shutout innings against the Mariners today (Saturday). Bent arm repetitive fist pumping and vocalizations. I sure hope he isn't benched for that wonderful display of emotion that was obviously gloating and not stoic.

buckninetyone
07-27-2013, 07:09 PM
i may be old and senile and dumb and drunk, but when did "pimping a home run" become a phrase?

SpiritofVodkaDave
07-27-2013, 07:44 PM
If people repeat something that is not true enough times, it may become the accepted truth. Slowey once again gets misrepresented. The management spin is still working.
Oh yay another Slowey apologist, a pitcher so great he is doing mop up work for one of the worst teams in baseball history currently!!

h2oface
07-27-2013, 08:14 PM
Oh yay another Slowey apologist, a pitcher so great he is doing mop up work for one of the worst teams in baseball history currently!!

What? Is he back on the Twins again??

jokin
07-27-2013, 08:44 PM
Oh yay another Slowey apologist, a pitcher so great he is doing mop up work for one of the worst teams in baseball history currently!!

One of the worst teams, sure, but their starting pitching is in the top 30% in baseball and their relief pitching is tied for 15th in terms of ERA.

Major League Team Stats » 2013 » Starters » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=15,a)

The Marlins rank 9th out of 30 teams for SP ERA @ 3.77 (3.94 FIP)

The Twins rank 30th out of 30 teams for SP ERA @ 5.16 (4.71 FIP).

As a starter, Slowey has a 4.11 ERA (3.81 FIP). That would rank Slowey as 2nd among Twins starters in ERA and 1st in FIP.

Minnesota Twins Leaderboards » 2013 » Starters » Dashboard | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=sta&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2013&month=0&season1=2013&ind=0&team=8&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=15,a)

TheLeviathan
07-27-2013, 09:07 PM
I'm very disappointed by what I am reading here. Buxton has the modesty and temperament to be a true stud, Sano, maybe not so much.

Really? That's an awfully unfair and shaky limb you're on. One which Terry Ryan would think is ludicrous by his own comments.

ThePuck
07-27-2013, 09:19 PM
Really? That's an awfully unfair and shaky limb you're on. One which Terry Ryan would think is ludicrous by his own comments.

So now we have fans who are turning on Sano...that's hilarious...

Thrylos
07-27-2013, 10:46 PM
Few tidbits from the Rock Cats game today: Sano did not play (this is old news) but was on the field at third during BP and infield drills. He was sitting on the bench talking with the starting pitchers who did not pitch today other than one inning that he relieved Angel Morales from first base coach duties. As far as I observed in the ballpark it was business as usual. No moping. If this whole drama was not out and about, nobody would know that Sano is being "punished". FYI.

Thegrin
07-27-2013, 10:53 PM
Standing at home plate admiring your home run has ALWAYS been considered bush league. Players need to learn it is not acceptable behavior under any situation. I doubt they cared about flipping the bat.

jokin
07-27-2013, 11:02 PM
Few tidbits from the Rock Cats game today: Sano did not play (this is old news) but was on the field at third during BP and infield drills. He was sitting on the bench talking with the starting pitchers who did not pitch today other than one inning that he relieved Angel Morales from first base coach duties. As far as I observed in the ballpark it was business as usual. No moping. If this whole drama was not out and about, nobody would know that Sano is being "punished". FYI.

Notice any interaction with coaching staff, Manager Smith and Miguel? The New Britain club is certainly reeling right now. Morales also seems to be riding pine (pulled after 1 PA yesterday?), with only Pinto and Rosario seemingly the only bats keeping their heads above water in the box score amidst this whole off-field drama. There must be better starting options for the club than Kyle Davies?

clutterheart
07-28-2013, 12:16 AM
Does any of the coaching staff in NB speak Spanish?

buckninetyone
07-28-2013, 02:03 AM
Does any of the coaching staff in NB speak Spanish?

si señor sano es muy loco. dios mio!

twinsnorth49
07-28-2013, 09:31 AM
Maybe, maybe not. I won't deny it's a lot of speculation, but in my experience most humble, soft-spoken, "aw shucks" types are not lining up to be "the guy". Just not in his personality. Which isn't a slight against him, but I'd like some guys on the Sano end of the spectrum too.

I disagree and my experience has been quite the opposite. The hockey world is full of them, including the captain of the most recent Stanley Cup champions.

I do agree that a team is better off with a mix of those personalities however.

TheLeviathan
07-28-2013, 10:02 AM
I disagree and my experience has been quite the opposite. The hockey world is full of them, including the captain of the most recent Stanley Cup champions.

I do agree that a team is better off with a mix of those personalities however.

I think hockey and baseball are apples and oranges. I'd say hockey is a unique sport in tht regard.

twinsnorth49
07-28-2013, 10:13 AM
I think hockey and baseball are apples and oranges. I'd say hockey is a unique sport in tht regard.

As far as the type of game, sure, but effective leadership traits are analogous in all team sports.

Hugh Morris
07-28-2013, 10:27 AM
Jeff Smith is (supposed to be) the adult in this situation and he needs to get control of this. If it's necessary they should move Sano to Rochester before they lose all control of young Mr. Sano. This is the point in his career where his attitude is set. This does not seem like it's going we'll at all.

I'm not sure what you expect Jeff Smith to do to get control of this. A player behaved in a manner which was viewed as disrespectful and unacceptable from the top of the organization (Ryan) to the bottom (teammates and base coaches in the minors). I've yet to see a single account where Jeff Smith yelled at, screamed at, or publicly berated Sano. Everything I've seen said he talked with him, was displeased at the content of the conversation, had him talk with Ryan, and was given permission to suspend him.

Let's not lose sight of this: Unless you're intent on seeing the Twins Organization as relentlessly anti-fun (there is some evidence to that view, I'm just not sure it's here), it doesn't appear Sano was suspended for pimping his home run. From my point of view, it looks like he was suspended for telling his manager (and possibly the GM) to pound sand. That'll earn you discipline in any organization-whether in sports or outside of it.

Hugh Morris
07-28-2013, 10:54 AM
I'm a little lost here-is this the Mauer that shows no emotion ever?
4971

This is the same Mauer who took over pitchers meetings as a 21 year old rookie. The same Mauer who showed the veteran leadership that so many people claim he lacks when Buxton was in town for BP immediately after signing (Minnesota Twins Joe Mauer ignores critics and extends his career - ESPN The Magazine - ESPN (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8391985/minnesota-twins-joe-mauer-ignores-critics-extends-career-espn-magazine)):


[Buxton] stood near the dugout, not entirely sure where to be or how to act. Mauer quietly motioned him into the dugout, down the stairs and into the cocoon of the tunnel, away from the glad-handers and grandstanders. Mauer handed him a pair of batting gloves and one of his bats. After dispensing some advice regarding the logistics of BP, Mauer told him to take a breath and take in the moment. Buxton's nervousness was obvious in his eyes. Perhaps seeing his past in Buxton's present, Mauer sent the young man onto the field by saying, "Just remember: Relax and have fun."


I occasionally have to remind myself that I'm a fan of a sport in which I have 95% or so of the knowledge about what's happening on the field during a televised game, and am relying on leaks, speculation and quotes from people with agendas for everything else. Much like in politics, those who don't aggressively engage in the media game are ignored (or, when your talent is too extreme for media to stay completely away, are undercovered) at best, and more commonly are used as rosarch tests.

D. Hocking
07-28-2013, 12:07 PM
I have no idea what is going on in the clubhouse, but I agree I think largely whoever the local media presents as the club house leader is the one who gives them the quotes. Mauer goes out of his way to give the most bland quotes possible. Although the local media makes it easy for him by asking him the same questions every time, so it is easy for him to supply one of his canned answers. I have noticed the most interesting interviews or articles about him are by some national writer who goes outside the box in the interviewing and ask him different questions and getting quotes about him from different people. Some Perkins quotes in the last year or so have actually fleshed him out a bit more.

That said, I do think a mixture of personalities is good. You don't want 25 Mauer clones or 25 Sano clones personality wise.

rnw24
07-28-2013, 02:05 PM
Does anyone know when Sano is supposed to be back in the lineup? I'm supposed to be making the trip to New Britain on Tuesday but I'm not going to take the ride if he isn't going to be in the lineup. (I apologize if the answer is already posted, but I don't feel like looking thru all 10 pages).

P.S. this benching is a bunch of crap!!!

Brock Beauchamp
07-28-2013, 02:17 PM
I'm surprised at how many people think it's okay for a 20 year old kid to yip back at a coach when told that what he did was unprofessional. I don't care how much talent a guy has, he still has to listen to his coaches and management. That's just how things work in... well, pretty much everywhere.

It's one thing to grandstand after a long homer. It was a mistake but it's the type of thing kids do when they're talented and young. What I find far more problematic is that he was spoken to in private and apparently didn't listen to what was said to him. That should be the story here and a minor leaguer that talks back to his coach should be benched 101% of the time. He's not above the game, he's not above his teammates, and he's sure as hell not above his coaches. It sounds to me like the Twins did exactly what should have been done here.

TheLeviathan
07-28-2013, 02:52 PM
As far as the type of game, sure, but effective leadership traits are analogous in all team sports.

I completely disagree. The physicality and ability to constantly impact offense and defense makes leadership during games much differrnt. Earlier I specifically used a game situation because I'm not sure how his leadership works behind closed doors (where I agree the skills are more universal) but mid game leadership couldn't look more different by the nature of the games. Hockey needs physicality, heart, and work ethic. Baseball you have to want to be the guy that has to get the hit, face the pressure under a one on one spotlight, and do it yourself.

IMO - totally different as the game dictates.

JB_Iowa
07-28-2013, 03:07 PM
Per LEN3 (citing Rob Antony), Sano will be back in the line-up tonight for NB.

Let's hope we can all move on from here.

jokin
07-28-2013, 03:34 PM
I completely disagree. The physicality and ability to constantly impact offense and defense makes leadership during games much differrnt. Earlier I specifically used a game situation because I'm not sure how his leadership works behind closed doors (where I agree the skills are more universal) but mid game leadership couldn't look more different by the nature of the games. Hockey needs physicality, heart, and work ethic. Baseball you have to want to be the guy that has to get the hit, face the pressure under a one on one spotlight, and do it yourself.

IMO - totally different as the game dictates.

Did the Twins have anything close to resembling a Jack Morris, Kirby Puckett or Dan Gladden in any of the playoff series in the 00s?

jokin
07-28-2013, 03:46 PM
I'm surprised at how many people think it's okay for a 20 year old kid to yip back at a coach when told that what he did was unprofessional. I don't care how much talent a guy has, he still has to listen to his coaches and management. That's just how things work in... well, pretty much everywhere.

It's one thing to grandstand after a long homer. It was a mistake but it's the type of thing kids do when they're talented and young. What I find far more problematic is that he was spoken to in private and apparently didn't listen to what was said to him. That should be the story here and a minor leaguer that talks back to his coach should be benched 101% of the time. He's not above the game, he's not above his teammates, and he's sure as hell not above his coaches. It sounds to me like the Twins did exactly what should have been done here.

Has anybody said that his behavior is OK? The big issues I've seen are that cultural and language differences, coupled with a problematic brew of Sano's uber-talent and ego in a 20 year old immature body- can easily lead to inevitably predictable problems.

Any AA prospect, no matter the age or talent level, is ever going to win a test of wills with management, especially with the apparent insubordinate behavior being indefensible. The onus is still on the adults in the room to defuse and resolve the current situation, obviate future potential situations and come to solutions that ends up making Sano a better man for it- on and off the field, and helping to make him a better asset to future Twins success.

It appears that, hopefully, Ryan has provided strong Tough Love, yet let Sano be fully aware of the team's Unconditional Love in the immediate situation, and can put in a better system and more diverse personnel to anticipate future insubordination and team rule violation problems that might arise from some youth/cultural/language barriers.

Thrylos
07-28-2013, 07:09 PM
What I find far more problematic is that he was spoken to in private and apparently didn't listen to what was said to him.

I have not seen a single piece of information that says that this is what happened.

Please let me know if you see one. Otherwise I think that it is propaganda BS

Brock Beauchamp
07-28-2013, 08:42 PM
I have not seen a single piece of information that says that this is what happened.

Please let me know if you see one. Otherwise I think that it is propaganda BS

StarTribune.com Mobile | News, weather, sports (http://m.startribune.com/?id=217118051)

Hugh Morris
07-28-2013, 08:50 PM
I have not seen a single piece of information that says that this is what happened.

Please let me know if you see one. Otherwise I think that it is propaganda BS

I'm curious at the idea of "Information that doesn't comport with my assumptions must be propaganda", but:Twins need a coach from Latin America, pronto | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/217118051.html)

When confronted over this by Smith, notorious in the Twins' system as a hard-nosed manager, Sano basically told Smith that he would do what he chose after hitting home runs.
Ryan also had another team employee talk to Sano. Apparently, Sano's response was not satisfactory to the Twins. So, the No. 3 overall prospect in the minor leagues sits at Jeff Smith's discretion.


Unless Reusse's in on the coverup?


and can put in a better system and more diverse personnel to anticipate future insubordination and team rule violation problems that might arise from some youth/cultural/language barriers.

I'm curious what cultural barrier you see at play when Sano tells his manager that he'll do what he wants when he homers.

nicksaviking
07-28-2013, 09:17 PM
I don't think most people think Sano should not have been punished. I think the issue is the severity. At some point does the humbling lesson turn into a bridge burning dust up?

drjim
07-28-2013, 09:26 PM
I don't think most people think Sano should not have been punished. I think the issue is the severity. At some point does the humbling lesson turn into a bridge burning dust up?

Are people really this paranoid about this situation? How he can't wait to leave, his agent might be calling around, etc.

drjim
07-28-2013, 09:28 PM
I don't like citing Killerbrew, Thome, Ortiz as a defense if this action. Sano is a long way to being a hall of famer.

drjim
07-28-2013, 09:30 PM
I thought Ryan addressed this perfectly on 1500 today. He went out of his wAy to praise Sano's makeup and stress tht they love his swagger. Just went too far this one time was the jist of it. Really an excellent response.

I'll second this. It was a great interview and provided some organizational context.

My thought is Ryan was probably the calm one, Molitor probably would have been even more strenuous in his response.

twinsnorth49
07-28-2013, 11:25 PM
I completely disagree. The physicality and ability to constantly impact offense and defense makes leadership during games much differrnt. Earlier I specifically used a game situation because I'm not sure how his leadership works behind closed doors (where I agree the skills are more universal) but mid game leadership couldn't look more different by the nature of the games. Hockey needs physicality, heart, and work ethic. Baseball you have to want to be the guy that has to get the hit, face the pressure under a one on one spotlight, and do it yourself.

IMO - totally different as the game dictates.

Just because the physical nature of the games differ, does not make the situations any different. Wanting to be the guy is the same thing, down by a run with 2 outs in the 9th, you want to be the guy at the plate, down by a goal with less than a minute to play, you want to be on the ice, down by a TD late in the 4th quarter, you want to have the ball in your hands. These are all one in the same, it's mental, not physical.

Great leaders relish the challenge, they don't always succeed, I think Mauer is likely one of those guys, he's too good an athlete not to be.

jokin
07-29-2013, 12:03 AM
I'm curious at the idea of "Information that doesn't comport with my assumptions must be propaganda", but:Twins need a coach from Latin America, pronto | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/blogs/217118051.html)

When confronted over this by Smith, notorious in the Twins' system as a hard-nosed manager, Sano basically told Smith that he would do what he chose after hitting home runs.
Ryan also had another team employee talk to Sano. Apparently, Sano's response was not satisfactory to the Twins. So, the No. 3 overall prospect in the minor leagues sits at Jeff Smith's discretion.


Unless Reusse's in on the coverup?


http://twinsdaily.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jonkin
and can put in a better system and more diverse personnel to anticipate future insubordination and team rule violation problems that might arise from some youth/cultural/language barriers.


I'm curious what cultural barrier you see at play when Sano tells his manager that he'll do what he wants when he homers.

This is jokin, not jonkin. A reporter related one version of whatever events transpired, from a manager with a well-documented history of players chafing and rebelling under his leadership style. I wonder if the reporter even tried to get Sano's reaction, was refused by Sano, or was not allowed to get a comment from Sano (through a translator) by Twins management. Miguel Sano is only 20, in a foreign culture, and can barely speak a string of English phrases, let alone maintain a meaningful ongoing conversation in the language.

There's no doubt in my mind that he has made youthful mistakes of immaturity in this particular matter. Whatever may or may not have transpired with Lanigan, in Sano's state of mind and youthful immaturity, regaining whatever respect that he may have perceived was lost in that tempetuous tete-a-tete with Lanigan may be more important culturally to him than a manager saying he can't do it that way (just speculation on my part). Plus, playing with a cocky and one-upsmanship style is the way Dominicans play the game in the DR. Most quickly learn to adapt to behavioral norms deemed acceptable in American baseball- Miguel is apparently still learning what is and isn't acceptable. The part with Jeff Smith could easily be a language-barrier-cultural-divide-related misunderstanding. As a former coach myself, I've seen, witnessed and learned to adapt my methodology for disciplinary action about such differences in real time.

I'm not worried about Sano, Terry Ryan has gone on record about what a wonderful person he is. This could end up being the best thing for him and for the organization- especially if Ryan identifies the new reality for the Twins is being very proactive in insuring that a bushelful of very young and highly talented foreign-born players end up all on the same page with the native-born players on the Twins roster. The coming years are clearly going to be a vastly different scenario than merely trying to keep the likes of Alexi Casilla, Juan Castro and Henry Blanco happy. It sounds like they have a program at Fort Myers for cultural immersion and language training, that's a good start. An ongoing support outreach, including a former professional big league Latin-born player as a coach or manager at each stop in the minors would be a good next step.

nicksaviking
07-29-2013, 12:30 AM
Are people really this paranoid about this situation? How he can't wait to leave, his agent might be calling around, etc.

After what happened with Arizona's top prospect Trevor Bauer last year, it should probably at least be in the back of the front office's mind.


I don't like citing Killerbrew, Thome, Ortiz as a defense if this action. Sano is a long way to being a hall of famer.

I don't believe there is anyone here who thinks Sano should get special treatment for being a special prospect. Yet this implies that if he ends up being a HOF'er his actions should be excused.

howieramone
07-29-2013, 01:25 AM
After what happened with Arizona's top prospect Trevor Bauer last year, it should probably at least be in the back of the front office's mind.



I don't believe there is anyone here who thinks Sano should get special treatment for being a special prospect. Yet this implies that if he ends up being a HOF'er his actions should be excused.I'm on pretty safe ground by stating multiple posters felt Sano should get special treatment. Brock's 2nd to the last post, did a good job of providing some perspective on this matter. If Sano ends up in the HOF, I would guess the incident is deleted from his personnel file.

TheLeviathan
07-29-2013, 06:40 AM
Just because the physical nature of the games differ, does not make the situations any different.

Great leaders relish the challenge, they don't always succeed, I think Mauer is likely one of those guys, he's too good an athlete not to be.

Well, I think your first point I took out here is wrong. The second, I agree with. I don't disagree Mauer likes a challenge. And, by the way, this is no slight on Mauer. I think Pujols is similar in demeanor.

But since you want to use hockey, let's talk analogy. The cup winners this year had a captain by the name of Jonathan Toews. I think we can agree Mauer and Toews are similar players in terms of demeanor and personality. Toews makes a fantastic captain for the very reasons Mauer would in hockey - outstanding work ethic, team-first guy, willing to do the little things, humble, and speaks with his actions more than his words. Toews is the guy that is grinding and working and setting the tone with all of those qualities. It makes for an excellent leader. In baseball, those qualities are not on display mid-game nearly as much. (Dramatically reduced by comparison) But they show up off the field - which is where I think Mauer is an outstanding leader.

But.....he's not often the guy that is the finisher, that wants the spotlight, that isn't afraid to be brash. In this case, I'm talking a guy like Patrick Kane. Here's a guy that relishes being the one that puts the boot to the throat. The Jeter/Sano/Pierzynski/Holliday/Brian Wilson type that craves the spotlight and wants to lead more than in the background, but wants to be the man that buries the puck the final time just so he can have the glory and the last laugh.

That's what Sano is that Mauer isn't. That's what the Twins need more of IMO. And, hopefully, this analogy shows you that I'm not slighting Mauer at all, it's just not in his make-up as a person to be Kane. He's Toews - which is still pretty friggin awesome. But I LOVE seeing our own Kane coming up through the minors.

drjim
07-29-2013, 07:24 AM
After what happened with Arizona's top prospect Trevor Bauer last year, it should probably at least be in the back of the front office's mind.

These strike me as quite different. Bauer had preparation and performance concerns. Sano has never been accused of this - in fact quite the opposite.

Badsmerf
07-29-2013, 08:26 AM
What I find troublesome is that some are insinuating that Sano will become disgruntled with being disciplined. Really? He isn't Manny Ramirez, and even Manny dealt with disciplines at the MLB level during his career. He is a 20 yo kid from Latin America. I'm pretty sure he knows what discipline is and how to handle it. The Twins have been pretty good to him, I don't think he is going to turn on them because he missed a few games. I was fine with a simple day off after the little HR stunt, but once the mouthing off part came out, it really put this into context. Again, this is a 20 yo being dismissive to the GM of the Twins. Not acceptable. There is no way any adult here (out of college) would accept this in their workplace, baseball is still real life.

John Bonnes
07-29-2013, 08:45 AM
What I find troublesome is that some are insinuating that Sano will become disgruntled with being disciplined. Really? He isn't Manny Ramirez, and even Manny dealt with disciplines at the MLB level during his career. He is a 20 yo kid from Latin America. I'm pretty sure he knows what discipline is and how to handle it. The Twins have been pretty good to him, I don't think he is going to turn on them because he missed a few games. I was fine with a simple day off after the little HR stunt, but once the mouthing off part came out, it really put this into context. Again, this is a 20 yo being dismissive to the GM of the Twins. Not acceptable. There is no way any adult here (out of college) would accept this in their workplace, baseball is still real life.

I agree, but there is a giant elephant in the room - Sano's value. It isn't terribly unusual in a company to have the "talent" report to someone who is a fraction of the value to the organization. And the talent needs to respect that person as the mouthpiece of the organization.

But when things get really ugly, the company is going to side with the asset, because they have to. Sano is literally worth tens of millions of dollars right now. With the possible exception of Terry Ryan, no other person in the Twins is worth that much. What is alarming is that he pushed the issue. Maybe he felt it was because an injustice was done or he felt really strongly about something, so maybe it was somewhat justified, but the alarming part is that someone with as much clout as he pushed back.

It's a goofy analogy, but there was a Twilight Zone episode where a kid had unlimited power, and so everyone was very careful about how they treated him. People worry about Sano's reaction because you worry about someone with that much clout.

TheLeviathan
07-29-2013, 08:56 AM
It's a goofy analogy, but there was a Twilight Zone episode where a kid had unlimited power, and so everyone was very careful about how they treated him. People worry about Sano's reaction because you worry about someone with that much clout.

I believe a similar boy dictated "Bonerland" was founded by "some guy". Ah good satire, how I miss thee.

nicksaviking
07-29-2013, 09:46 AM
These strike me as quite different. Bauer had preparation and performance concerns. Sano has never been accused of this - in fact quite the opposite.

I don't think it was a performance issue, I think it was his insistance to do things how he wanted to do them. AZ ended up shipping him off because he didn't fit their ideal which has been reported as players who fit into the Kurt Gibson mold.

That mold is basically the Twins model. Obviously both teams would take talent and hard work if they came in the same package, but they seem to prefer gritty hard nosed players over God-given talent.

howieramone
07-29-2013, 10:28 AM
I don't think it was a performance issue, I think it was his insistance to do things how he wanted to do them. AZ ended up shipping him off because he didn't fit their ideal which has been reported as players who fit into the Kurt Gibson mold.

That mold is basically the Twins model. Obviously both teams would take talent and hard work if they came in the same package, but they seem to prefer gritty hard nosed players over God-given talent.There is absolutely no evidence that this is true.

Siehbiscuit
07-29-2013, 11:24 AM
I think the Sano's defiance "earned" him the additional games. This may have very well been a "I hate the other guy and I lost my mind a bit," but he showed disrespect to his manager, which to me is far worse than having a momentary lapse in judgement after hitting a bomb. The slow trot was worth maybe one game and the treatment to poor treatment of his manager was the other 3 games.

What's more damaging: Being treated poorly by someone in the family or that someone treating someone else poorly?

If you're treating your own family poorly, you need to sit down and re-evaluate some things.

nicksaviking
07-29-2013, 11:36 AM
There is absolutely no evidence that this is true.

This team has chosen dirty uniforms grinding pitchers over flash time and time again. I'm not saying it isn't admirable, but I don't think it's a winning formula in professional baseball. Fortunately they are getting the combo platter lately due to drafting high.

jokin
07-29-2013, 11:48 AM
I think this quote today puts things into their proper perspective, confirms the theory about cultural and language barriers and youthful immaturity.

“If anything, I think he’s trying to figure things out and understand,” said Rob Antony, the Twins assistant general manager. “He’s a good kid but, like we say, it’s all part of the development. He has to understand that it’s not right, that’s not the way we go about and we clean that stuff up in Double-A.”

I think everyone has moved on and all sides have/will benefit from what transpired.


Sano's four-game benching at New Britain comes to an end | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/217309601.html)

drjim
07-29-2013, 03:59 PM
I think this quote today puts things into their proper
perspective, confirms the theory about cultural and language barriers and youthful immaturity.

“If anything, I think he’s trying to figure things out and understand,” said Rob Antony, the Twins assistant general manager. “He’s a good kid but, like we say, it’s all part of the development. He has to understand that it’s not right, that’s not the way we go about and we clean that stuff up in Double-A.”

I think everyone has moved on and all sides have/will benefit from what transpired.


Sano's four-game benching at New Britain comes to an end | StarTribune.com (http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/217309601.html)

I agree with all this. The Twins need to temper the excesses, but Ryan made clear in the Saturday interview that he appreciates a little edge. That is unquestionably a good thing.

drjim
07-29-2013, 04:01 PM
This team has chosen dirty uniforms grinding pitchers over flash time and time again. I'm not saying it isn't admirable, but I don't think it's a winning formula in professional baseball. Fortunately they are getting the combo platter lately due to drafting high.

I don't buy the Twins operate like this. They prefer talent.

nicksaviking
07-29-2013, 04:13 PM
I don't buy the Twins operate like this. They prefer talent.

Their ventures into free agency says otherwise. Their drafting of Alex Wimmers as opposed to the half dozen talented HS pitchers picked quickly after says otherwise. Trading Liriano for Escobar and Hernandez who are very low ceiling grinders instead of a guy in the lower ranks with upside say otherwise.

ThePuck
07-29-2013, 04:43 PM
Ryan made clear in the Saturday interview that he appreciates a little edge.

What have you seen, by the way this team operates, that makes you believe this is true?

drjim
07-29-2013, 04:43 PM
Their ventures into free agency says otherwise. Their drafting of Alex Wimmers as opposed to the half dozen talented HS pitchers picked quickly after says otherwise. Trading Liriano for Escobar and Hernandez who are very low ceiling grinders instead of a guy in the lower ranks with upside say otherwise.

They drafted Wimmers because of his grit?

LimestoneBaggy
07-29-2013, 05:09 PM
I believe a similar boy dictated "Bonerland" was founded by "some guy". Ah good satire, how I miss thee.

Points for Simpsons Quote. All other posters are number two or lower.

diehardtwinsfan
07-29-2013, 05:16 PM
This team has chosen dirty uniforms grinding pitchers over flash time and time again. I'm not saying it isn't admirable, but I don't think it's a winning formula in professional baseball. Fortunately they are getting the combo platter lately due to drafting high.

This team has gone out of its way to get both. There's plenty of "flash" in the minors right now, and Sano is a good example of that as are guys like Rosario and Benson. There's plenty of gritty hard nosed players too. A good team will need both to succeed.

ThePuck
07-29-2013, 05:19 PM
This team has gone out of its way to get both. There's plenty of "flash" in the minors right now, and Sano is a good example of that as are guys like Rosario and Benson. There's plenty of gritty hard nosed players too. A good team will need both to succeed.

Benson?

diehardtwinsfan
07-29-2013, 05:39 PM
Benson?

plenty of flash... failed flash, but flash.

ThePuck
07-29-2013, 05:47 PM
plenty of flash... failed flash, but flash.

I thought you were talking about players still in our organization...I was just wondering if we had another Benson that i didn't know about.

nicksaviking
07-29-2013, 08:04 PM
This team has gone out of its way to get both. There's plenty of "flash" in the minors right now, and Sano is a good example of that as are guys like Rosario and Benson. There's plenty of gritty hard nosed players too. A good team will need both to succeed.

I agree, they've gotten players that demonstrate both characteristics recently and I stated this. Jim simply assumes every comment I make is aimed at Terry Ryan's head and takes every opportunity to contradict me.