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kydoty
07-10-2013, 11:42 PM
Dude's about to go 9-3 with an ERA of 2.00 over 76.2 IP.

Not saying we should've kept him. I'm just wondering what is so drastically different now than the last few years.

clutterheart
07-11-2013, 12:17 AM
His stats are pretty similar to his 2010 stats - except his ERA.

He seems to be giving up a lot of walks. The big number that is down is the HR number.
He has only given up 3 HR in 76 IP
In 2012 he gave up 19 in 156 IP
His GB rate is back above 50%.
For some reason in 2011 & 2012 he gave up more Fly Balls and more of those became HR. This looks to be the biggest statistical difference that stands out to me.

Part of this must be from switching to the NL from the AL, also PNC park doesn't give up many HR.

SpitefulRabbit617
07-11-2013, 06:51 AM
NL is always good to former twins pitchers........:talk028:

Thrylos
07-11-2013, 08:10 AM
His stats are pretty similar to his 2010 stats - except his ERA.

He seems to be giving up a lot of walks. The big number that is down is the HR number.
He has only given up 3 HR in 76 IP
In 2012 he gave up 19 in 156 IP
His GB rate is back above 50%.
For some reason in 2011 & 2012 he gave up more Fly Balls and more of those became HR. This looks to be the biggest statistical difference that stands out to me.

Part of this must be from switching to the NL from the AL, also PNC park doesn't give up many HR.

While Target Field does ;)

The fact that his numbers are pretty close to his 2010 numbers (including the HR/9; other than his WHIP being a little less, due to the AL to NL change) is an astute observation.

Why? Could be lots of reasons, including getting healthy from an undisclosed ailment, getting more confident and being able to pitch without thinking so much, getting a change of scenery and a fresh beginning, getting more effective coaching and (last but not least) entering his career prime. This is his age 29 season...

IdahoPilgrim
07-11-2013, 08:57 AM
I'm glad for him he's having a good year.

The question is what will he do next year? He had good years in 2008 and 2010 only to be followed by stinkers in 2009 and 2011 (and 2012).

My guess, and I hope for his sake I'm wrong, is that he'll finish the year strong, and that this will be the year that makes Pittsburgh think they've found something and causes them to keep giving him chances the next two years, which will be sub-par.

Nobody has said he doesn't have good stuff. He just has not been consistent from year-to-year. Maybe this time will be different

USAFChief
07-11-2013, 09:41 AM
I'm in a small minority, but I thought the Twins should have extended Liriano (cheaply) last year. Too good of an arm to let go for basically nothing, especially for an organization so short on quality arms.

drjim
07-11-2013, 03:37 PM
I'm in a small minority, but I thought the Twins should have extended Liriano (cheaply) last year. Too good of an arm to let go for basically nothing, especially for an organization so short on quality arms.

Probably would have needed a change of pitching coaches too.

iastfan112
07-11-2013, 06:24 PM
Relying on his slider. He's thrown more sliders this year than any year since his injury and less fastballs as well. Probably a good move if you struggle with your control regardless of pitch, might as well throw more of the one that generates swings and misses.

diehardtwinsfan
07-11-2013, 07:19 PM
I wouldn't have minded them extending him, but I get the distinct impression that Liriano needed a change of scenery more than anything else. Saw an article on him a month or two ago talking about how he made some minor adjustments to his pitching techniques as well.

TheLeviathan
07-11-2013, 08:24 PM
Relying on his slider. He's thrown more sliders this year than any year since his injury and less fastballs as well. Probably a good move if you struggle with your control regardless of pitch, might as well throw more of the one that generates swings and misses.

That's also the pitch that he over-threw to a blown-out elbow. Might be something to watch for.

johnnydakota
07-11-2013, 09:40 PM
Dude's about to go 9-3 with an ERA of 2.00 over 76.2 IP.

Not saying we should've kept him. I'm just wondering what is so drastically different now than the last few years.

Could it be a team with a coach who can speak spanish?
si si si yes it could be, to bad we Kept Drew around a couple years ago instead of signing Pudge Rodriquez to be Frankies personal guru catcher

greengoblinrulz
07-11-2013, 11:34 PM
Is there any other reason than its his first full season away from Rick Anderson

striker_86
07-11-2013, 11:55 PM
Relying on his slider. He's thrown more sliders this year than any year since his injury and less fastballs as well. Probably a good move if you struggle with your control regardless of pitch, might as well throw more of the one that generates swings and misses.

Yup, he has been throwing the fastball a lot less. I dont know if that's something the pirates pitching staff worked with him on. Or if the Twins coaching staff just wanted him to pound the fastball even if he was all over the place. Either way, Ill never fault the twins for getting rid of him. We gave him so many chances. Yes, he'll prolly be the #2 starter if the Pirates make the playoffs and Im sure he will look good. Oh well!

Willihammer
07-16-2013, 07:21 PM
He's largely abandoned the 4 seemer. His change in pitch usage this year versus 2006-Jul 2012:

http://i.imgur.com/1UehE0d.png

Look at his profile page on brooksbaseball, the 4 seemer is the one that got hit the hardest, historically.

jorgenswest
07-16-2013, 07:51 PM
I'm in a small minority, but I thought the Twins should have extended Liriano (cheaply) last year. Too good of an arm to let go for basically nothing, especially for an organization so short on quality arms.

We couldn't force him to sign a cheap contract extension. Why would he? In his mind I am sure he thought he would turn it around in the second half and get a good contract. There would be no motivation to sign that kind of extension.

The options available to the Twins last July were to trade him or retain him with hopes that he would pitch well enough to merit a qualifying offer. The Twins correctly assessed that he would not be worth a qualifying offer and traded him. They traded him and received a return in line with rental pitchers performing at his 2012 level.

I don't see how extending him cheaply could ever have been an option.

USAFChief
07-16-2013, 09:17 PM
We couldn't force him to sign a cheap contract extension. Why would he? In his mind I am sure he thought he would turn it around in the second half and get a good contract. There would be no motivation to sign that kind of extension.



Liriano was coming into free agency after a year in which he was posting a 5 ERA. He would have gladly listened to a 3 yr offer. Gladly.

He ended up with $1M in guaranteed money from the Pirates. He and his agent aren't stupid.

Butterfingers8
07-16-2013, 09:21 PM
Is there any other reason than its his first full season away from Rick Anderson
nope, that's about it

darin617
07-16-2013, 10:04 PM
Dude's about to go 9-3 with an ERA of 2.00 over 76.2 IP.

Not saying we should've kept him. I'm just wondering what is so drastically different now than the last few years.

2 words why Liriano would have not had the same success if he would have resigned with Minneosta.
Rick Anderson. Enough said...

darin617
07-16-2013, 10:06 PM
Is there any other reason than its his first full season away from Rick Anderson

Only other thing would be away from Gardy...

YourHouseIsMyHouse
07-16-2013, 10:11 PM
Who's that new Pirates ace? I've been following this guy and he's pretty good. I was thinking it might be Cole or Taillon, but this one throws lefty. Someone help me out?

Sconnie
07-16-2013, 10:22 PM
I'm in a small minority, but I thought the Twins should have extended Liriano (cheaply) last year. Too good of an arm to let go for basically nothing, especially for an organization so short on quality arms.
I admit that I didn't mind seeing him go, despite the lack of depth at starter. I wonder if he "figured it out" and he would have had a similar statistical first half of 2013 with the Twins, or if it is the change in scenery/team/defense/ballpark/league that is playing the larger role in his success. It's good to see Liriano have some success. I hope he can sustain it. I was wrong about him last season.

Brock Beauchamp
07-17-2013, 08:00 AM
I agree that Liriano wouldn't have success under Rick Anderson, except for that time when he had success under Rick Anderson in 2010.

If this was Anderson's fault, Don Cooper would have gotten something out of Liriano last season but he was awful for the White Sox.

Is it really so hard to admit that the pitcher himself might be responsible for his performance, both good and bad? Pitching coaches can certainly try to tweak things but they can't go out to the mound and throw for the guy.

I will never understand why people have to lay blame for. every. single. thing. that. happens.

zenser
07-17-2013, 08:55 AM
Who's that new Pirates ace? I've been following this guy and he's pretty good. I was thinking it might be Cole or Taillon, but this one throws lefty. Someone help me out?

Jeff Locke?

mike wants wins
07-17-2013, 09:56 AM
I don't think it is the pitching coach at all, I think he's healthy again. That simple. Maybe some small change in pitches also. But blaming Anderson seems a bit too easy.

spycake
07-17-2013, 10:01 AM
Liriano was coming into free agency after a year in which he was posting a 5 ERA. He would have gladly listened to a 3 yr offer. Gladly.

He ended up with $1M in guaranteed money from the Pirates. He and his agent aren't stupid.
He agreed to a 2/12.75 deal with Pittsburgh. The "$1 million guaranteed" clause was because he hurt his non-throwing arm before they finalized the deal -- it was never likely to affect the original total value.

Even if his 2011-2012 struggles were not necessarily the product of Anderson, Gardy, Target Field, etc., I doubt Liriano was interested in signing a similar deal with the Twins. Certainly he would not have been interested last summer, when he still had a few months to help his value.

Brock Beauchamp
07-17-2013, 10:05 AM
I don't think it is the pitching coach at all, I think he's healthy again. That simple. Maybe some small change in pitches also. But blaming Anderson seems a bit too easy.

I'd call it lazy, honestly.

And I don't even like Rick Anderson that much. I think, at best, he's a mediocre-to-decent pitching coach who hasn't evolved enough as the years progressed.

There are plenty of reasons to get irritated with the coaching staff on this team. I cannot see how Liriano is one of those reasons. The guy appears to be an emotional rollercoaster and after trying to get the best out of him for half a decade (and even succeeding a couple of times), it was time for both parties to move on. There is simply no need for every organizational move to turn into a finger-pointing contest.

Blackjack
07-17-2013, 11:25 AM
Liriano was a head case, I'm glad he moved on - but you knew he had talent that there was a good chance that he'd figure it out, like he is now.

S.
07-19-2013, 12:42 PM
I think some folks are forgetting he's only thrown 76 innings this season and in my humble opinion, he's MUCH more likely to blow up or get injured than he is to continue pitching like he has been in said 76 innings. I would've figured most of you have seen enough stretches of Liriano success, followed by significantly longer stretches of mind blowing incompetence to be at least somewhat skeptical about him being able to maintain this level of pitching for any significant period of time.

If he can maintain good numbers over the next year and not start going mental out there on the mound or blow out his arm throwing all those sliders, good for him. He's an exciting pitcher to watch when he's on, but I'm far beyond getting my feathers ruffled over another team getting less than half a season worth of success from him. Give him 200+ innings for the Pirates and we'll see what tune they're singing about him then.

cmathewson
07-19-2013, 01:11 PM
It is not Anderson. Anderson wanted him to abandon the four seamer and just throw the sinker, slider and change. That's basically waht he is doing this year.

I'm sure there are many factors, but the biggest one is familiarity. When you pitch five times a year against the same teams, they eventually figure you out. He's the same lazy head case he was in 2010 and 2011. He's just facing different hitters. I wager his success will diminish as teams figure out how to lay off the slider, and wait him out, as the Tigers did.

Rosterman
07-19-2013, 01:33 PM
He's pitching for money. Him and his agent saw the lackluster response he got s a free agent (and why Pittsburgh ante up what they did -- originally for him -- is beyond belief). The tell will be next season, when he is again playing for money. If he keeps his head straight, he can dominate. Hopefully he's not staining his arm!

Willihammer
07-19-2013, 03:16 PM
It is not Anderson. Anderson wanted him to abandon the four seamer and just throw the sinker, slider and change. That's basically waht he is doing this year.

I am curious how you know this.

The other thing that's probably worth mentioning is that Liriano is now throwing to Russell Martin. We can argue how much framing really affects a guy's ERA and IP, but by some measures, Martin has single-handedly taken the Pirates from one of the worst framing teams to one of the best. Coincidentally their pitching staff as a whole has gotten a lot better.

LimestoneBaggy
07-19-2013, 03:25 PM
Twins tweaking Liriano's repertoire - Blogs - Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/parker-hageman/806-twins-tweaking-liriano-s-repertoire.html)

cmathewson
07-19-2013, 05:13 PM
I am curious how you know this.

After four years of trying to get this guy straight (and succeeding for one of the four), he was quoted a half a dozen times saying what Liriano needed to do to be successful.

A. Stick to the sinker
B. Locate the sinker
C. Locate the change
D. Throw the slider as a strikeout pitch, not a strike pitch

Anderson probably told him that stuff hundreds of times. Except for one half of one year, Liriano could not consistently execute on the game plan.

I would be interested in seeing your evidence for the framing argument.

Willihammer
07-19-2013, 06:27 PM
Twins tweaking Liriano's repertoire - Blogs - Minnesota Twins News & Rumors Forum (http://twinsdaily.com/blogs/parker-hageman/806-twins-tweaking-liriano-s-repertoire.html)

According to this, Anderson encouraged the exact opposite of what has correlated to his success. 2 seem usage up in 2010 - he's fantastic. Down in 2011 - lousy. Starts 2012 about 1:1 in fastball usage and struggles. Throws a few bullpens using his 4 seemer more, at Anderson's suggestion, and does pretty good. Then he returns to the rotation and went on that pretty awesome mid-summer run - but if you look at the pitchf/x classifications during this time (example (http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php?s_type=3&sp_type=1&batterX=0&year=2012&month=7&day=13&pitchSel=434538.xml&game=gid_2012_07_13_oakmlb_minmlb_1%2f&prevGame=gid_2012_07_13_oakmlb_minmlb_1%2f)), he returned to leaning on his 2 seemer.

Then he got traded to Chicago, and for whatever reason goes back to the 4 seemer. Does just okay (example (http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php?s_type=3&sp_type=1&batterX=0&year=2012&month=8&day=27&pitchSel=434538.xml&game=gid_2012_08_27_chamlb_balmlb_1%2f&prevGame=gid_2012_08_27_chamlb_balmlb_1%2f)).

So I guess I'm still looking for that Rick Anderson quote where he encourages Liriano to use his 2 seemer more and his 4 seemer less. If he said this at press conferences or wh atever, I missed it.
------------------------

The framing bit you can read here: All-Star Break Pitch-Framing Update | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/all-star-break-pitch-framing-update/)


It’s interesting when you look at the final column. The second-most-improved team is the Tigers, at plus-eight. Then the Pirates are all the way up there at plus-21, having signed Martin away from the Yankees in free agency even though the Yankees didn’t have a sound backup plan. Martin has singlehandedly turned this from a weakness into a strength.

cmathewson
07-19-2013, 11:24 PM
According to this, Anderson encouraged the exact opposite of what has correlated to his success. 2 seem usage up in 2010 - he's fantastic. Down in 2011 - lousy. Starts 2012 about 1:1 in fastball usage and struggles. Throws a few bullpens using his 4 seemer more, at Anderson's suggestion, and does pretty good. Then he returns to the rotation and went on that pretty awesome mid-summer run - but if you look at the pitchf/x classifications during this time (example (http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php?s_type=3&sp_type=1&batterX=0&year=2012&month=7&day=13&pitchSel=434538.xml&game=gid_2012_07_13_oakmlb_minmlb_1%2f&prevGame=gid_2012_07_13_oakmlb_minmlb_1%2f)), he returned to leaning on his 2 seemer.

Then he got traded to Chicago, and for whatever reason goes back to the 4 seemer. Does just okay (example (http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/pfx.php?s_type=3&sp_type=1&batterX=0&year=2012&month=8&day=27&pitchSel=434538.xml&game=gid_2012_08_27_chamlb_balmlb_1%2f&prevGame=gid_2012_08_27_chamlb_balmlb_1%2f)).

So I guess I'm still looking for that Rick Anderson quote where he encourages Liriano to use his 2 seemer more and his 4 seemer less. If he said this at press conferences or wh atever, I missed it.
------------------------

The framing bit you can read here: All-Star Break Pitch-Framing Update | FanGraphs Baseball (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/all-star-break-pitch-framing-update/)

At this point, as Parker says, Anderson was desperate. He would have loved some consistency out of Liriano with his sinker, but, barring that, he would take any kind of consistency. At any rate, it wasn't long after this was published that Liriano was giving up homers and other extra base hits to teams that figured out his four seamer.

The quote itself invalidates the board's impression that Anderson was doctrinarian. He was pragmatic with Liriano. He was all for whatever worked in spring training.

There is no one way to pitch. Every pitcher has to make adjustments to be successful. I'm glad Liriano has. He struggled to make some of the same adjustments when he was in a Twins uniform. That's on him more than the pitching coach.

Willihammer
07-19-2013, 11:45 PM
At this point, as Parker says, Anderson was desperate. He would have loved some consistency out of Liriano with his sinker, but, barring that, he would take any kind of consistency. At any rate, it wasn't long after this was published that Liriano was giving up homers and other extra base hits to teams that figured out his four seamer.

The quote itself invalidates the board's impression that Anderson was doctrinarian. He was pragmatic with Liriano. He was all for whatever worked in spring training.

There is no one way to pitch. Every pitcher has to make adjustments to be successful. I'm glad Liriano has. He struggled to make some of the same adjustments when he was in a Twins uniform. That's on him more than the pitching coach.
I agree for the most part. But you have to admit, if there's one area where a coach could really have a direct impact, its pitch selection.

Did Anderson and Mauer put plans together pre-game? What were the extent of those plans? From the quote in Parker's article, its hard to tell if Anderson was just being sort of agreeable, in which case you wonder if the Twins appreciated how important using the sinker instead of the 4 seemer might have been for Liriano. I for one am struck by how well that usage has correlated to Liriano's success over the years.

Or, was Anderson micromanaging Liriano's pitch selection more than he betrayed in that quote, in which case he may have been, on occassion, mis-micromanaging him? Its a perfectly valid question to ask, I think.

USAFChief
07-20-2013, 06:47 PM
After four years of trying to get this guy straight (and succeeding for one of the four), he was quoted a half a dozen times saying what Liriano needed to do to be successful.

A. Stick to the sinker
B. Locate the sinker
C. Locate the change
D. Throw the slider as a strikeout pitch, not a strike pitch

Anderson probably told him that stuff hundreds of times. Except for one half of one year, Liriano could not consistently execute on the game plan.

I would be interested in seeing your evidence for the framing argument. Can you show us a couple of those quotes?

launchingthrees
07-24-2013, 08:07 AM
I agree that Liriano wouldn't have success under Rick Anderson, except for that time when he had success under Rick Anderson in 2010.

If this was Anderson's fault, Don Cooper would have gotten something out of Liriano last season but he was awful for the White Sox.


Is it really so hard to admit that the pitcher himself might be responsible for his performance, both good and bad? Pitching coaches can certainly try to tweak things but they can't go out to the mound and throw for the guy.

I will never understand why people have to lay blame for. every. single. thing. that. happens.

Well starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave so there's that. You can't have an antiquated system and expect to field competitive pitching.

big dog
07-24-2013, 08:17 AM
Well starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave so there's that. You can't have an antiquated system and expect to field competitive pitching.

I'm a little mystified by this. Which "starters as a whole" have improved drastically when they leave? Santana? Nope. Liriano didn't improve, he got back to what he had been twice before while a Twin.

Slowey was a good Twins starter for a while, a bad starter after he left, and he's probably pitching no worse for Miami now than when he was a Twin.

Kyle Lohse? It took him a long time, and a couple of teams, to become more consistent than he was with the Twins.

It's fair to say that these pitchers have performed elsewhere at a level as high or even higher than when they were Twins, at least for short periods of time, but I don't think it's fair to say they all improved drastically. Who else do you mean?

launchingthrees
07-24-2013, 11:05 AM
I'm a little mystified by this. Which "starters as a whole" have improved drastically when they leave? Santana? Nope. Liriano didn't improve, he got back to what he had been twice before while a Twin.

Slowey was a good Twins starter for a while, a bad starter after he left, and he's probably pitching no worse for Miami now than when he was a Twin.

Kyle Lohse? It took him a long time, and a couple of teams, to become more consistent than he was with the Twins.

It's fair to say that these pitchers have performed elsewhere at a level as high or even higher than when they were Twins, at least for short periods of time, but I don't think it's fair to say they all improved drastically. Who else do you mean?

Jason Marquis 3.28 K/9 Twins 7.6 K/9 Padres
Jesse Crain 6.22 K/9 Twins 10.56 K/9 Sox
Kyle Lohse 5.01 K/9 Twins 5.60 K/9 Since traded
RA Dickey 5.88 K/9 Twins 6.83 K/9 Since traded
Kevin Slowey 6.67 K/9 Twins 7.20 K/9 Marlins
Matt Guerrier 5.91 K/9 Twins 6.53 K/9 Dodgers
Matt Garza 7.11 K/9 Twins 7.68 K/9 Since traded

Vance Worley 4.62 K/9 Twins 7.71 K/9 Phillies
Kevin Correia 5.04 K/9 Twins 6.04 K/9 before Twins
Mike Pelfrey 4.90 K/9 Twins 5.08 K/9 before Twins

big dog
07-24-2013, 12:06 PM
Jason Marquis 3.28 K/9 Twins 7.6 K/9 Padres
Jesse Crain 6.22 K/9 Twins 10.56 K/9 Sox
Kyle Lohse 5.01 K/9 Twins 5.60 K/9 Since traded
RA Dickey 5.88 K/9 Twins 6.83 K/9 Since traded
Kevin Slowey 6.67 K/9 Twins 7.20 K/9 Marlins
Matt Guerrier 5.91 K/9 Twins 6.53 K/9 Dodgers
Matt Garza 7.11 K/9 Twins 7.68 K/9 Since traded

Vance Worley 4.62 K/9 Twins 7.71 K/9 Phillies
Kevin Correia 5.04 K/9 Twins 6.04 K/9 before Twins
Mike Pelfrey 4.90 K/9 Twins 5.08 K/9 before Twins




Your statement was that "starters as a whole improve drastically when they leave the Twins."

Crain and Guerrier are relievers. Dickey started exactly one game for the Twins.

Why is K/9 your only measure of whether or not a pitcher has improved?

Two of the three new guys are coming off surgery, and all three are coming from the National League. Facing pitchers helps the K rate compared to facing DHs, though I don't know the expected amount. Some adjustment is called for when pitchers change leagues.

According to Baseball Reference, Lohse pitched 908.1 innings for the Twins, with 561 K's. That works out to 5.56 K/9, virtually the same as his post-Twins career (all of which was in the NL). Garza was a kid who was likely to improve- he had pitched 133 total innings for the Twins. What about Slowey since he left the Twins, not just the last few months? Is a change of 0.5 even statistically significant without factoring in age, league, etc?

Jason Marquis, really? You're arguing that the Twins' alleged philosophy had a huge impact for 7 starts on a guy who had made over 250 starts in his career? A guy who wasn't even in spring training? He was barely on the club long enough to learn the name of the clubhouse attendants.

You forgot Eric Milton, but he went the opposite direction. We'd all like to forget Carlos Silva, who never struck anyone out anyway. I could argue the Twins gave up too early on Jim Kaat and Jerry Koosman and I'd be right, but it wouldn't be relevant. Pavano improved by 1.1 K/9 his first year with the Twins, then fell apart. Andersen's fault? I doubt it.

I don't think the claim that starting pitchers improve when they leave the Twins has very much support, personally. I think the claim that the Twins have had a lot of crappy pitchers is much more plausible. You could also argue that they have given up on a few guys they should have kept, which is certainly true (and true of an awful lot of teams, but no less true here). But I sure don't see a long track record of starters going off to be wildly successful elsewhere.

jokin
07-24-2013, 12:16 PM
But I sure don't see a long track record of starters going off to be wildly successful elsewhere.

Some have gone off to be wildly successful (Liriano, Garza, Lohse, Dickey all come to mind), others have gone off to be "mildly successful"....and that's a standard that would qualify as front-end rotation guy on this Twins staff.

Beezer07
07-24-2013, 01:13 PM
Some have gone off to be wildly successful (Liriano, Garza, Lohse, Dickey all come to mind), others have gone off to be "mildly successful"....and that's a standard that would qualify as front-end rotation guy on this Twins staff.

When are we gonna stop with the "Twins blew it with Dickey" meme? He was terrible for multiple teams, had a good 1 1/2 years with the Mets, and is not performing particularly well this year.

big dog
07-24-2013, 02:12 PM
Some have gone off to be wildly successful (Liriano, Garza, Lohse, Dickey all come to mind), others have gone off to be "mildly successful"....and that's a standard that would qualify as front-end rotation guy on this Twins staff.

Liriano has been wildly successful for 2 months, something he did in 2 different years for the Twins. He really thrived with the White Sox. Etc. This all comes under finding data to fit a hypothesis rather than testing a hypothesis.

Willihammer
07-24-2013, 08:08 PM
Liriano batting in the top of the 8th right now, holding a 1-0 lead over Strasburg, great game!

RodneyKline
07-24-2013, 08:23 PM
OK, I'll say it then...We should have kept Liriano. He had more swing and misses than any other starter in MLB last year. Shame on our coaching staff (and the White Sox too) for not figuring how to have a guy with his stuff help the team somehow. I would rather see guys like Liriano and Deduno pitch that can miss bats than all of these hit to contact guys. Boring!

USAFChief
07-24-2013, 11:08 PM
Liriano won his 10th tonight with 7.2 innings of 2 hit shutout ball. 8 K's.

Danchat
08-11-2013, 06:41 PM
Liriano went 2 and a third innings and gave up 10 runs the other day.
That's the pitcher we all know and love.

twinsnorth49
08-12-2013, 08:53 AM
Liriano went 2 and a third innings and gave up 10 runs the other day.
That's the pitcher we all know and love.

Unpossible!!

I blame Rick Anderson

COtwin
08-12-2013, 09:08 AM
Unpossible!!

I blame Rick Anderson

If he is honest he probably would blame himself a bit. Frankie has 2 clunkers in 17 starts. Even after giving up 10 runs his WHIP is better than any Twins starter, as is his ERA. I would trade half the guys on our rotation to have him back. Rick probably would to.

snepp
08-13-2013, 11:24 AM
He only walked 2!

:)

USAFChief
08-14-2013, 10:22 PM
Liriano in a big game against St Louis tonight: 9 IP, 4 H, 1 BB, 1 R, 6 K. W.

Season: 13-5, 2.68.

Willihammer
08-15-2013, 11:35 AM
That was such a bummer of a run too. "Wild pitch" on a changeup about 18 inches outside with 2 outs to go.

Thegrin
08-15-2013, 12:19 PM
Liriano was a crazy-maker. You have to watch him with your eyes closed to keep your sanity. :eek:

I love ground balls and double plays. I hate high-ball pitchers like Baker. Strikeouts are fine if they don't lead to elevated pitch counts. Otherwise, they are overrated.

The best thing Liriano did was when he sped up his game... but as soon as he hit a rough patch he slowed down again. He was a heart-break waiting to happen last year.

SpitefulRabbit617
08-15-2013, 02:08 PM
***Insert Former Twins Pitcher**** moved to NL and is in the running for the Cy Young. :rolleyes: Gets Traded to an AL team and new team wonders what happened to their Cy Young award winner. THE DH/no #9pitcher DID, and thats a fact.

SpitefulRabbit617
08-15-2013, 02:10 PM
Liriano is like the 10 chick you hookup with once and then you call too much and she flakes on you constantly and you never get over it. Wish him the best and move on.

snepp
08-15-2013, 08:04 PM
I finally moved on from Santana and Garza, I figure I've got a good 3 or 4 seasons to go yet on this one.

jokin
08-20-2013, 10:40 AM
I finally moved on from Santana and Garza, I figure I've got a good 3 or 4 seasons to go yet on this one.

You and me, both, brother. And last night didn't help matters any.

Liriano throws 7 shutout innings, 4 H, 13K, only 2BBs. His ERA is down to 2.53. He's made a strong case for a top 5 finish in Cy Young voting.

But hey, looking on the bright side, Pedro Hernandez threw 5 innings of shutout ball in AA last night, so there's that.

AROG
08-20-2013, 11:31 AM
You and me, both, brother. And last night didn't help matters any.

Liriano throws 7 shutout innings, 4 H, 13K, only 2BBs. His ERA is down to 2.53. He's made a strong case for a top 5 finish in Cy Young voting.

But hey, looking on the bright side, Pedro Hernandez threw 5 innings of shutout ball in AA last night, so there's that.

The bright side, if any, the White Sox don't have anything from Liriano. We got a possible good utility guy and Pedro, what ever he ends up being, and the Sox got nothing.

Badsmerf
08-20-2013, 01:07 PM
We got a possible good utility guy and Pedro
Not a chance Pedro is on the 40 man in 2 years.

big dog
08-20-2013, 03:07 PM
Not a chance Pedro is on the 40 man in 2 years.

I don't want Hernandez, but Escobar might have a chance. How much would you bet on Liriano being an average or better ML starter in 2 years? If I could figure that guy out I'd have a job in a front office some place. I do wish him the best, and just hope he doesn't walk off the mound holding his elbow again.

Mr. Brooks
08-20-2013, 03:12 PM
I'm a little tired of hearing all the excuses given to defend the Twins on this issue. Liriano's performance is a major indictment on the Twins staff.

No matter whose "fault" it is, clearly the Pirates have found a way to get the most out of Liriano, period.

jokin
08-20-2013, 03:38 PM
I'm a little tired of hearing all the excuses given to defend the Twins on this issue. Liriano's performance is a major indictment on the Twins staff.

No matter whose "fault" it is, clearly the Pirates have found a way to get the most out of Liriano, period.

They have a recent track record of reigniting former top-end talent to previous levels or higher. They definitely are the team you want to go to to get a fresh start!

Reusse today said it could have come down to the Twins pitching coach convincing Liriano into throwing too many fastballs up in the zone. Charts confirm that the Pittsburgh staff revamped Liriano's approach. He's throwing the FBs less and sliders and change-ups more, and the quality of Liriano's FB are greatly improved over the last 2 years.

No way to spin this, another pitching debacle, more the Twins fault, than Liriano's.

drjim
08-20-2013, 04:13 PM
Maybe this is the objective example that ends the Anderson era.

big dog
08-20-2013, 04:24 PM
I'm a little tired of hearing all the excuses given to defend the Twins on this issue. Liriano's performance is a major indictment on the Twins staff.

No matter whose "fault" it is, clearly the Pirates have found a way to get the most out of Liriano, period.

I guess we all have things we're tired of, like constantly bashing people instead of being realistic. Liriano's been this good twice before, both times with the Twins. What are the odds he sustains the success the third time? For his sake, I truly hope he does. I'm just saying I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't afford to lose, given his history.

Why does anything that doesn't criticize management seem to automatically get branded as supporting management? Oh, I forgot, this is the internet where everything has to be polarized. My bad.

raindog
08-20-2013, 04:28 PM
***Insert Former Twins Pitcher**** moved to NL and is in the running for the Cy Young. :rolleyes: Gets Traded to an AL team and new team wonders what happened to their Cy Young award winner. THE DH/no #9pitcher DID, and thats a fact.
Yes, Liriano has a 2.53 ERA because he doesn't have to face the DH. :rolleyes:

SydneyTwinsFan
08-20-2013, 06:06 PM
Liriano against lefties this year: .137/.188/.158
Insane.

snepp
08-20-2013, 06:16 PM
Liriano against lefties this year: .137/.188/.158
Insane.

That's ****ing ridiculous.

Mr. Brooks
08-20-2013, 06:22 PM
Liriano against lefties this year: .137/.188/.158
Insane.

That is sick.
Just to put that in perspective, Drew Butera career line: .182/.230/.263

BHtwins
08-20-2013, 06:56 PM
Hurdle was on the the Jim Rome show (guest host) a few weeks ago and said that absolutely that they thought Liriano was capable of being really good and was on the top of their list in the off-season of project pitchers. paraphrasing but that was the gist of it.

USAFChief
08-20-2013, 08:58 PM
Still sticks in my craw that an organization so short of pitching talent let an arm like Liriano's leave the organization at all, much less for the kind of players that are available for free every winter.

He shouldn't be pitching for another organization.

jokin
08-20-2013, 09:12 PM
Still sticks in my craw that an organization so short of pitching talent let an arm like Liriano's leave the organization at all, much less for the kind of players that are available for free every winter.

He shouldn't be pitching for another organization.

To be fair, it has been reported that Liriano turned down a (likely) low-ball Twins offer during the FA open season. It was pretty clear that the ties had been cut between the 2 parties well before then. Liriano has obviously made a great career decision.

And you and many others were scratching heads at the time a year ago when the "trade" (dump) was contemplated and ultimately consummated. The only overbearing front office concern a year or so ago was achieving their stated goal of cutting the payroll in 2013 and then again in 2014. So there's that to look forward to again in the offseason.

stringer bell
08-24-2013, 09:40 PM
Not indicative of his season so far, but Liriano with another clinker out west. 4 innings, 9 hits, 4 runs and 100 pitches.

iastfan112
09-26-2013, 08:52 PM
Was reading Fangraphs today and saw this line in an article, "Liriano held left-handed hitters to a .130/.175/.146 line". That's sort of ridiculous.