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Thrylos
04-07-2012, 09:09 PM
Let's see:

The Twins are 0-2. Manhandled by one of the 2 teams that was projected to finish below them in 2012
There were about 3 attributed Errors in these 2 games and about 3-4 more unattributed
I think that the team is hitting a collective Butera for 2012
One of the most promising pitchers (or the most promising) will probably miss the season because of another mis-diagnosis and mis-treatment
His replacement is out with "food poisoning"

So, are you panicing? Is the sky falling (yet?)

As far as my feelings go about our 2012 Minnesota Twins, it is something like this:

- I am totally disappointed by the season 2 games in, but they are just 2 games in. (I can deal with 160-2 :) )
- That Baker thing (and the Hendriks too) is about the last straw for me with their med staff and front office. Ryan talked about "accountability". Walk the talk Terry or get the hey out of what you are doing now and go sell mac and cheese like St Peter does (or something.) Frankly this p*ssed me off more than the 2 loses.


How do you all feel?

Montecore
04-07-2012, 09:26 PM
Even from just mlb.com computer simulation you can tell this team is devoid of life. I'm hoping they'll go 0-10 just so it may put Gardenhire on the bubble. The team is just perfectly awful. The blend of personalities is just awful. Willingham's a stiff, Carroll just seems listless, Valencia's head isn't in the game...this will be a terrible team for years, and years. "The Twins Way" chased off Big Papi, Garza, and so on. It's dull, wretched, whitebread baseball, and it's a grotesque insult to every Twins fan.

minn55441
04-07-2012, 09:36 PM
The pitching hasn't been good.
The fielding hasn't been good.
The hitting has been the worst of all.

We are only two games in, things will get better. The problem is that we are in the midst of the 3 easiest games of the first 19. I thought we had a chance of being 10-9 when KC rolled into town on Apirl 27th. At this point 5-14 might be a pipe dream. If we can't win one against Baltimore, what is going to happen with the Angels, Rangers, Yankees, Ray and the Red Sox all come to town? There really isn't a break in this April schedule.

lee_the_twins_fan
04-07-2012, 09:43 PM
Two losses already. Not a promising start.

I don't know why, but there are times when I think the Twins play better against better teams. We can lose to the worst teams and beat the best teams. (Except maybe the Yankees).

I hope we can turn the season around, or it will be a long one.

60ft6in
04-07-2012, 09:53 PM
Up front, I am not a Gardy fan one way or another...Will getting rid of Gardy help.....?? How? A new manager may make many feel better but when you lack impact pitching and not much more on offense who will a new manager turn to for help?? We cut payroll and have a team that looks like it!

If your pitching philosophy is change speeds and pitch to contact then you better have an offense! Its a culture throughout the organization!

twinswon1991
04-07-2012, 09:56 PM
Terry Ryan and Gardy should've been fired before the season started and it looks like it will be mission accomplished after this team fails to win more than 5 games in the first month.

The problem is that the guys you hope to trade for a bag of balls: Liriano, Pavano, Capps are gonna be so bad they won't be able to give them away and we will be forced to watch their ineptititude.

Get some balls Terry Ryan and own up to your offseason of mistakes and FLAT OUT CUT the following players so young guys can get a chance: Blacky, Carroll, Pavano, Crapps, Burnett, Casilla, Marquis, etc!

Face it this is a 100+ loss team as is so why not lose 110 games with young guys learning on the job????

twinswon1991
04-07-2012, 10:00 PM
Gardy ran off Hardy, Papi, Garza and I'm sure others because of his philosophy. I like the pitch to contact and hit the other way philosophy for the replacement level guys we have but when you have power bats or power arms you have to let them fire/hack away. Gardy's failure to handle "power" players is embarassing. His coddling of Mauer and failure to develop young players is very obvious.

Seth Stohs
04-07-2012, 10:04 PM
2 games...

That is all...

Yankees and Red Sox are 0-2... think they're over-reacting? The Yankees are expected to win 90. The Red Sox may win 82. The Twins are expected to win 75ish...

Only 160 more games to go!

The positives? Carroll has looked very good. Morneau is swinging pretty well.

I'm not saying this team is or isn't good yet, but come on... panic after two games??

jareddejong42
04-07-2012, 10:10 PM
Way too early to panic. No one expected Baker to pitch more than 150 innings this year anyways. 2 bad games do not indicate anything in a schedule of 162. Everyone needs to relax a little... If we are still struggling to hit and pitch in the middle of June we will have cause to worry. Lastly, not that I am a huge fan of Gardenhire, but I am not sure he can go out there and throw strikes, hit, and field the ball. The guys still need to perform up to their capabilities.

Riverbrian
04-07-2012, 10:13 PM
2 games...

That is all...

Yankees and Red Sox are 0-2... think they're over-reacting? The Yankees are expected to win 90. The Red Sox may win 82. The Twins are expected to win 75ish...

Only 160 more games to go!

The positives? Carroll has looked very good. Morneau is swinging pretty well.

I'm not saying this team is or isn't good yet, but come on... panic after two games??

lol... I think they are over-reacting in New York and Boston. Those fans can't handle one game losing streaks.

On the other hand... Us Twins Fans... Well we can use some feeling good and I hope it comes soon.

Montecore
04-07-2012, 10:28 PM
Gardy ran off Hardy, Papi, Garza and I'm sure others because of his philosophy. I like the pitch to contact and hit the other way philosophy for the replacement level guys we have but when you have power bats or power arms you have to let them fire/hack away. Gardy's failure to handle "power" players is embarassing. His coddling of Mauer and failure to develop young players is very obvious.

This is right. The guy (Gardy) is a proven loser. Papi by himself is a firing offense. I mean, is there anything more that you need than that​ ? He loved Punto, Butera - just move to Italy, Gardy, and you can find lots more just like 'em. A new manager with a little humility, some openness, not this slovenly hedgehog anymore.

Montecore
04-07-2012, 10:40 PM
Gardy ran off Hardy, Papi, Garza and I'm sure others because of his philosophy. I like the pitch to contact and hit the other way philosophy for the replacement level guys we have but when you have power bats or power arms you have to let them fire/hack away. Gardy's failure to handle "power" players is embarassing. His coddling of Mauer and failure to develop young players is very obvious.

Right. They need someone with an ounce of humility, not a proven loser. Is there anything more telling than the Papi situation? Then, Garza, then Hardy? For what? Nishi? Carrol? Whatever usefulness "The Gardenhire Way" had after that blew up in the team's face like an IED. He loved Punto, Butera, there's something wrong with the guy - maybe he can start a softball team in Italy. Yeah, it's two games, but with 16 of the 18 innings being zeroes. Okay, the pitching staff is horrible, but keep him around and a team destined to lose will lose like a clueless zombie army. He's the worst problem of them all.

one_eyed_jack
04-07-2012, 10:52 PM
Going into panic mode after 2 games out of 162 makes about as much sense as going into panic mode during a game because your leadoff hitter takes a couple of pitches for strikes in the 1st inning. It's way too early.

That said, the only positives I could see from these first 2 games were Morneau swinging a good bat and Carroll looking surprisingly solid.

Other than that, it was keystone cops on defense, a pitching staff that throws too many batting practice fastballs, and an overall punchless lineup.

This is a flawed team, but they can do better than that. And I hope they start showing it soon. The Vikings made it a long fall. The Wild and recently the Wolves made it a long winter. If we keep seeing the type of baseball we saw the past 2 days, it is going to be one hell of a long summer.

Fanatic Jack
04-07-2012, 10:56 PM
This mess is not Ryan's fault. He has no control over the Pohlads being cheap and cutting $15 million from payroll. The team may be in love with Gardy but they will have to do something to sell tickets in July. Paul Molitor is a St. Paul native and will bring the fans in.

Fanatic Jack
04-07-2012, 10:57 PM
I got news for people who love Jamey Carroll. He can't hit!!!!!!!!

Ultima Ratio
04-07-2012, 11:03 PM
It's not that we've lost two straight. It's how we've lost and who we've lost to that produces resentment, not panic. The offense was the one aspect of this team that was supposed to be at least average. 2 run/game to the Orioles' pitching is just shameful. I hope we right the ship tomorrow, but this is getting old real quick.

CDog
04-07-2012, 11:17 PM
His replacement is out with "food poisoning"
So, are you panicing? Is the sky falling (yet?)

- That Baker thing (and the Hendriks too)


When I read that Hendriks had food poisoning, I made a joke to myself that someone on an internet forum was going to be foolish enough to blame that on the Twins' front office. I enjoyed a good internal chuckle and the ridiculous nature of my joke. Naturally, it was such an absurd thought that it would never actually happen...

Fire Dan Gladden
04-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Man, reading these comments you would think the Twins are an east coast team. Everybody panics over 2 losses. Like you expect this team to win 99 games this year? Get a grip people. Understand a few things:
- Ryan and Gardenhire will never be fired from the Twins. This is the same organization that let Bill Smith run it into the ground, only to rehire him back. Regardless of the outcome, they will let these two continue to work to right the ship.
- Anybody surprised to see Pavano and Liriano give up runs should have their head examined.
- THis team could go 6-14 and nobody would be extremely surprised. 0-2? Ha!

Looks like everybody drinking the "If everything falls right the Twins could contend" Kool-aid have already dumped out the pitcher.

striker_86
04-07-2012, 11:25 PM
yes, these have been two awful games...but I'm not too worried yet. Personally, I just wanted about 95 losses or less. I wasn't expecting much this year, but 2 losses to the lowly Orioles is bad no matter who you are. Good thing Blackburn is the only starter under contract next year!

Riverbrian
04-07-2012, 11:53 PM
No panic here. I still believe this team could win 82 games this year and I still believe that they could lose 95.

The first step is to realize that we don't have any hitters that resemble Braun or Kemp. Getting upset with them for not hitting like Braun or Kemp is pointless.

The second step is to realize that we have two players who are paid like they are Braun and Kemp but they haven't performed like it lately and it doesn't leave a lot of money to sign players who actually perform like Braun or Kemp. It's ok to be upset with them... They are well compensated for your utter disdain.

The third step is realizing that we don't have any pitchers that resemble Halladay or Kershaw. Getting upset with them for not pitching like Halladay or Kershaw is pointless.

The fourth step is to realize that without hitters who hit like Braun or Kemp and pitchers who pitch like Halladay and Kershaw. You better be able to catch the ball to avoid the gifting of unnecessary runs like today DANNY VELENCIA (did I say that out loud) and you have to develop that clutch thing and be able to stroke a key hit from time to time. Make a key pitch or catch from time to time.

In other words. Learn to win the close game.

The final step is to realize that there are only a couple of teams loaded with Brauns and Kemps... Teams that can just beat you silly(yet still lose on occasion because it just doesn't fall right on a given day). The rest of the teams... They are in the same boat as us to varying degrees.

So serve me up a glass of that "if everything goes right kool-aid". I'll drink it... Stranger things have happened. Get Gardy and Ryan thinking about defense until we can find a couple Brauns and Halladays so we can survive our mistakes and for god sake lets not expect Ryan Doumit and Jamey Carroll to lead us to the promised land. Let's just hope they play decent and dont screw things up.

Heres to the next 160... or 159 with a rainout.

jeffk
04-08-2012, 12:51 AM
One point I'd make: today I didn't actually think Liriano looked that bad. His slider was breaking, control was reasonable, fastball was 92-93mph, a few strikeouts... he got kinda screwed by a mix of (really bad) fielding and unlucky breaks. I hope this start doesn't mess with his head.

clutterheart
04-08-2012, 01:50 AM
Pitching and Outfield Defense is terrible.

We knew this going into the season. So its not panic as the bad play should have been expected

kirbyelway
04-08-2012, 06:47 AM
Geez guys 2 games in. Let's give it a chance! Over analyzing a couple of bad losses isn't the way to critique a season. Forty games in and let's see where we are.

silverslugger
04-08-2012, 07:22 AM
HISTORY

I'm a diehard Twins fan, been one since I was a kid growing up in Minnesota in the 70's. Living in Iowa my entire adult life, I've made it to a handful of Twins games all at the dome. I've listened intently to Herb Carneal and John Gordon on the radio for years. Within the last few years I've watched many a game on FSN.

REALITY

Last year I pretty much stopped watching the games on FSN in July and August, came back a bit in September just to eye a few of the young pups. If crap like yesterday continues, viewership in Twins Territory will wane and attendance at TargetField will drop like a rock, for reference see last September. I'd love to get to a game at Target Field, wish I would've in 2010, it just didn't happen. I'm much less inclined on a daily basis to experience it and much less inclined on a daily basis to tune into FSN or keep the radio on. If the Twins don't begin looking competitive soon, TwinsTerritory will cease to exist in it's glorious past decade form and revert to the cold and fridget 90's in a hurry.

twinswon1991
04-08-2012, 08:06 AM
I got news for people who love Jamey Carroll. He can't hit!!!!!!!!

Exactly! Do these people realize we are stuck with this Bum for 2 years???? We could've kept Punto and had a better defender and hitter!. Carroll can field better than Nishi......WOW sign him to an extension. Too many on this site have no concept of reality!

Neinstein
04-08-2012, 08:31 AM
Exactly! Do these people realize we are stuck with this Bum for 2 years???? We could've kept Punto and had a better defender and hitter!. Carroll can field better than Nishi......WOW sign him to an extension. Too many on this site have no concept of reality!
I'm having trouble seeing why everyone likes Punto so much. He is not the solution. The way I saw it was, we were stuck with Punto for 6 years.

The reality is Carroll owns a lifetime .277 avg while Punto's is .249.
The reality is Carroll commits fewer errors.
Is Carroll the solution?
No. But he'll do for now while this Team is in refresh mode.

headcheese
04-08-2012, 08:43 AM
No panic here. I still believe this team could win 82 games this year and I still believe that they could lose 95.

The first step is to realize that we don't have any hitters that resemble Braun or Kemp. Getting upset with them for not hitting like Braun or Kemp is pointless.

The second step is to realize that we have two players who are paid like they are Braun and Kemp but they haven't performed like it lately and it doesn't leave a lot of money to sign players who actually perform like Braun or Kemp. It's ok to be upset with them... They are well compensated for your utter disdain.

The third step is realizing that we don't have any pitchers that resemble Halladay or Kershaw. Getting upset with them for not pitching like Halladay or Kershaw is pointless.

The fourth step is to realize that without hitters who hit like Braun or Kemp and pitchers who pitch like Halladay and Kershaw. You better be able to catch the ball to avoid the gifting of unnecessary runs like today DANNY VELENCIA (did I say that out loud) and you have to develop that clutch thing and be able to stroke a key hit from time to time. Make a key pitch or catch from time to time.

In other words. Learn to win the close game.

The final step is to realize that there are only a couple of teams loaded with Brauns and Kemps... Teams that can just beat you silly(yet still lose on occasion because it just doesn't fall right on a given day). The rest of the teams... They are in the same boat as us to varying degrees.

So serve me up a glass of that "if everything goes right kool-aid". I'll drink it... Stranger things have happened. Get Gardy and Ryan thinking about defense until we can find a couple Brauns and Halladays so we can survive our mistakes and for god sake lets not expect Ryan Doumit and Jamey Carroll to lead us to the promised land. Let's just hope they play decent and dont screw things up.

Heres to the next 160... or 159 with a rainout.

totally agree with this statement. we just need some timely hitting. which has been the story all along.

with all the crap that happened last year to the twins they surely will be better if healthy.

who knows maybe cabrera takes another grounder to the face, prince gets cheesburger poisoning and verlander has unilateral ulna weakness.

all the sudden we could win the division. #itcouldbehappening

BHtwins
04-08-2012, 09:29 AM
Put me in the club that says Liriano didnt look that bad. He threw a lot of pitches but I thought the strike zone was a bit tight and the real reason was is his defense was putrid. I think Valencia in particular has looked listless and uninspired and Willingham has just looked clueless. I dont see how in the world he could be worse in right. Valencia missed 2 of 3 2 out hits that were playable, not easy but not impossible and he hardly moved. Willingham cost another earned run and 1 unearned one.Uninspired and poor play is not fun to watch. You dont have to win 100 games to be interesting...but that effort last night was painful.

powrwrap
04-08-2012, 09:41 AM
To panic would imply one had positive expectations of this ballclub. Since I expect them to lose more games than they win, I am not panicking.

minn55441
04-08-2012, 10:12 AM
I enjoy watching baseball. I have enjoyed watching baseball for over 40 years. My team doesn't have to win every game for me to experience that enjoyment, they don't have to make it to the playoffs or win a world series. They do have to play good baseball, win or lose.

There is no enjoyment watching your team get crushed. We have not be competitive the first two games. The hardcore fans will continue to follow the Twin's, but if things don't change quickly, the park will be half full most of the games this year and a resulting cut in payroll will only follow. I don't want to turn into Pittsburgh or KC.

Riverbrian
04-08-2012, 10:14 AM
Put me in the club that says Liriano didnt look that bad. He threw a lot of pitches but I thought the strike zone was a bit tight and the real reason was is his defense was putrid. I think Valencia in particular has looked listless and uninspired and Willingham has just looked clueless. I dont see how in the world he could be worse in right. Valencia missed 2 of 3 2 out hits that were playable, not easy but not impossible and he hardly moved. Willingham cost another earned run and 1 unearned one.Uninspired and poor play is not fun to watch. You dont have to win 100 games to be interesting...but that effort last night was painful.

Here's a quote from Danny Velencia from the Trib.

"[Liriano] kept us in the game," Valencia said. "We didn't get any run support for him, and we didn't make a couple key plays."

What's this "WE" crap.

Velencia misplayed two balls with two outs in the 4th inning. Personally costing the Twins 3 runs in that inning. Down 3-0 after 4 is better then Down 6-0 after 4. Liriano wasn't compeletely sharp but he wasn't completely bad either.

Neither of those balls that Velencia misplayed were ruled errors but a major league ball player has to make those plays. If he does... Liriano works out of the jam down 3-0 and his pitch count is at 64 and he's ready to go in the 5th and then who knows.

I love stats... they do have value but sometimes a pitcher with a high ERA... has a high ERA because they suck and sometimes a pitcher with a high ERA... has a high ERA because of his defense playing behind him or bad luck. Sometimes the defense looks like Velencia did yesterday and no error is charged or sometimes the perfect pitch is blooped down the line for a bases clearing pop double. This stuff doesn't show up in the Box Scores or stats.

Even Halladay will work himself into jams on occasion and needs his defense to make a play to get out of it.

Velencia needs to understand that he has not cemented an every day major league job for the long haul. Twins fans are waiting for the arrival of Sano. Velencia needs to get back to that energy he displayed as a rookie when he was trying to prove he belonged instead of assuming he belongs.

I'm looking forward to Burroughs getting the start today. I hope Burroughs plays well and gives Velencia something to think about.

whydidnt
04-08-2012, 10:30 AM
I'm not ready to panic. I'm sure they will play better at points throughout the season. I didn't have high expectations though. When you lose 99 games and then cut the payroll by more than 10% what do you think is going to happen? The team is put together poorly, they build their pitching staff around guys that put the ball in play and then put guys in the field that are average at best, and in many cases below average defenders. Valencia is playing like he did in the minors, the entire organization was blinded by his 1/2 year performance in 2010. I hate to say it but we are seeing the real Valencia, a below average fielder and mediocre hitter. Have to agree the offense has been very disappointing. Facing probably the worst 1-2 starting pitchers in the league and have looked absolutely lifeless. Hunter was the throw-in part of a deal for a middle reliever last year, that should tell you about his pedigree, yet the Twins hitters couldn't square up on him all night. Wouldn't surprise me to see the Twins but up 8-9 today though, you just never know with this team.

DAM DC Twins Fans
04-08-2012, 10:35 AM
Way too early for everybody to be panicking...yes Twins lost 2 to Orioles...yes it looks bad but...

We need defense to back up the Anderson pitch to contact...we dont have defense...play Revere in CF...he will catch everything and move Span to RF...if we survived Delmon (and Ford) in LF we can survive Josh. Bring up Dozier and play him everyday at SS until he proves he cant play there. Play Carroll at 3B (or Hughes) until Valencia realizes he has to play decent defense to stay in the lineup.

This team is not a 500 team--we have to remember.

Neinstein
04-08-2012, 10:40 AM
We should not forget that Baltmore started out HOT last year as well.
They swept 3 games against the Rays, won 2 of 3 against the Tigers, took 2 of 4 against the Twins, 2 of 3 against the Red Sox, and almost swept the White Sox taking 3 of 4 to start out their first month of ball.

Many teams begin the year slow. It's nothing new for the Twins to start out a little slow in the Wins column.

Yes, some mistakes being made... defensively and offensively.
It's only 2 games. At the end of the day, one team wins and one team loses. Some lose big, some lose by a little. Some win big, some squeak out a win.

It's baseball. Go Twins!

JB_Iowa
04-08-2012, 11:08 AM
72-88. So far they are ahead of that pace in the loss column but I suspect things will even out a little at some point.

Went into this season without many expectations (good or bad) -- but I would appreciate it if they'd at least make the games competitive.

Riverbrian
04-08-2012, 11:13 AM
The one thing that Mr. Ryan did was give this team a little more depth and that is a good thing. Use that depth and move the players around. Go in with the attitude that no one has a job cemented. Make them play well for more playing time. Make them contribute and hold them accountable. Our depth is one of our best features. Utilize it and I love the lineup today for that reason.

TwinsFanLV
04-08-2012, 11:37 AM
Gardy ran off Hardy, Papi, Garza and I'm sure others because of his philosophy. I like the pitch to contact and hit the other way philosophy for the replacement level guys we have but when you have power bats or power arms you have to let them fire/hack away. Gardy's failure to handle "power" players is embarassing. His coddling of Mauer and failure to develop young players is very obvious.

This team lacks a clubhouse leader. It's time for the home town boy with the huge contract to call his own press conference and seperate himself from both Ryan and Gardenhire. He's more valuable than the two of them put together. It should sound something like, "The Twins are paying me x dollars. I'm planning to catch 120 games and hit .330. When I'm not catching, I'll DH or play 1B. I'm challenging my teammates to play up to their full potential. We need to pitch, field and hit better than we demonstrated last year. We should win 95 games and our division. If our current roster doesn't win, players should be gone and new players should arrive. Nobody in the clubhouse should be looking to the manager or General Manager to offer excuses. We're all supposed to be professionals. It's time to start playing like professionals and win games".

Who cares if they can't finish above .500? Isn't it way past time for Mauer to grab the reigns and show some (any) leadership?

StormJH1
04-09-2012, 09:16 AM
This team lacks a clubhouse leader. It's time for the home town boy with the huge contract to call his own press conference and seperate himself from both Ryan and Gardenhire. He's more valuable than the two of them put together. It should sound something like, "The Twins are paying me x dollars. I'm planning to catch 120 games and hit .330. When I'm not catching, I'll DH or play 1B. I'm challenging my teammates to play up to their full potential. We need to pitch, field and hit better than we demonstrated last year. We should win 95 games and our division. If our current roster doesn't win, players should be gone and new players should arrive. Nobody in the clubhouse should be looking to the manager or General Manager to offer excuses. We're all supposed to be professionals. It's time to start playing like professionals and win games".

Who cares if they can't finish above .500? Isn't it way past time for Mauer to grab the reigns and show some (any) leadership?

Totally agree with the "Mauer sucks as a leader" angle...but with this roster, what would be the end goal? Do you expect our staff "ace" to strike out more than 120 guys in 200 innings? Is Liriano suddenly going to stop losing his control if he "tries harder". Is Morneau going to "suck it up" and pretend like his concussions and four surgeries last year didn't happen?

My fear is that this IS pretty close to the Twins potential. Obviously, they could hit a little better. Mauer and Morneau can drive some balls into the gap with regularity, even if it isn't fully realistic to expect consistent power from either of them right now. Willingham can hit one in the stands every few games.

But beyond that....what? Is Liam Hendricks going to rip off his hospital arm band and start fanning guys like Brandon Beachy? Is either Casilla or Carroll going to decide that "Whoops, I'm actually a power hitter now!"? You look at other "bad" teams like the Mariners, and you see the potential for breakout seasons. It's "possible" Jesus Montero blows up and hits 30HR's this year. Or that Danny Hultzen gets called up and wins like 12 games with a 9.00 K/9 rate. Or that Dustin Ackley plays like Chase Utley of a few years ago. This Twins team isn't "underripe"...this is actually a team composed of players already in their prime, or beyond it. And that's the reason for panic.

EXTC
04-09-2012, 09:24 AM
"hitting a collective Butera"

priceless.

CDog
04-09-2012, 09:42 AM
This team lacks a clubhouse leader.

How much time have you spent in the clubhouse?