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diehardtwinsfan
06-12-2013, 10:39 AM
We mentioned him in the international signings thread. Since he doesn't count against the pool and would fit right into the next wave at a position of need, the Twins should go hard after him. Hard throwing pitcher.

Here's an article on him. (http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/2013/06/08/mlb-rumors-minnesota-twins-interested-in-cuban-right-hander-miguel-alfredo-gonzalez/)

kab21
06-12-2013, 10:51 AM
That's a better way to spend money than better retreads.

Pitz
06-12-2013, 11:17 AM
Teams interested in Gonzalez:
Dodgers, Red Sox, Twins, Cubs, Rangers
One of these teams is not like the others, One of these teams just doesn't belong.

I would be SHOCKED if the Twins were the highest bidder among those clubs.

Also saw that he had bone spurs removed from his elbow while he was suspended, but is believed to be fully healthy. (Dodgers eyeing Cuban pitcher Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez (http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.latimes.com/sports/dodgersnow/la-sp-dn-dodgers-miguel-alfredo-gonzalez-20130606,0,5818743.story&sa=U&ei=oZ64UZfpGcHm0QGW94D4Cg&ved=0CBoQqQIwAA&sig2=_laj8TO2i_y9fptF-p7kdQ&usg=AFQjCNFPbLfgZDBk_d2WkjHvkDZKOBC8iQ))

It would be nice to see the Twins continue to add (upside) arms, but I don't see this one happening.

mike wants wins
06-12-2013, 11:22 AM
I don't see Terry Ryan's FO being aggressive and outbidding other teams for free agents, whether they be international, MLB, or minor league in nature. I hope to be proven wrong some day.

TD Mac
06-12-2013, 11:46 AM
I don't see Terry Ryan's FO being aggressive and outbidding other teams for free agents, whether they be international, MLB, or minor league in nature. I hope to be proven wrong some day.

Sano?!?

kab21
06-12-2013, 11:48 AM
Sano?!?

And that happened in a year when MLB payroll dropped from the previous season.

mike wants wins
06-12-2013, 11:49 AM
Sano?!?


Terry Ryan was not GM.....nor was he when they signed jack morris to a big deal. I don't think it is in Ryan's philosophy to spend big. He could be right, he could be wrong.....

nicksaviking
06-12-2013, 11:53 AM
Sano?!?

That was Bill Smith.

I want him but that's assuming he's a hard thrower. Every article I've read states his fastball is in the 90's. That's pretty vague. 92 MPH likely does not warrent the same offer that 96 MPH does. I guess we'll have to wait until his workout though it seems strange we can't find a little better scouting reports considering he has pitched in international competitions since 2009.

diehardtwinsfan
06-12-2013, 12:07 PM
You can never have enough pitching... Agree if he's a 92 MPH guy, but I thought that article implied front of the rotation stuff. If that's true, given his age and development, he fits very nice into the next wave, and given the cuts in payroll, this is the type of high spending that makes a ton more sense. They compete in the international FA market every year and sign guys, so I don't see why they couldn't get him if they wanted him.

cmathewson
06-12-2013, 12:23 PM
Terry Ryan was not GM.....nor was he when they signed jack morris to a big deal. I don't think it is in Ryan's philosophy to spend big. He could be right, he could be wrong.....


Amaurys Minier says "hi."

http://twinsdaily.com/twins-minor-league-talk/2009-twins-2012-international-signings.html

mike wants wins
06-12-2013, 12:27 PM
That was spending inside the new system, which sets what a team can spend. Not really true free agency. This guy is a true free agent, with no slots/limits applying.

CK
06-12-2013, 12:34 PM
I'm skeptical as well but, if his advisors have any brains, they'll look hard at the Twins' starting rotation and his competition.
"You're better than him... him... him... Hey, maybe this might be a good idea"
But, then again, maybe they are a little short sighted and want the biggest bonus. Never happens, right?

birdwatcher
06-12-2013, 12:53 PM
The Twins have been quoted as saying they are impressed with this year's international crop, and they have one of the largest war chests. So let's not overreact if this Gonzales guy signs elsewhere. The Twins have done rather well by us in the international arena. For example, last year they signed the #7 and #22 ranked guys (Minier and Silva).

Oh, and those who think the GM has a huge impact on all of this can't offer us a shred of real evidence to support this notion. It's a big department, with a big budget, and the GM doesn't dictate every decision, including who to sign. Some people want to believe that Sano would not have been signed if Ryan had been the GM. I call bull.

mike wants wins
06-12-2013, 01:19 PM
I agree, CK, that there is great opportunity in MN. And the twins have shown a willingness to re-sign their own to good money. But it is probably hard to pass on the more immediate payout.

B Richard
06-12-2013, 02:09 PM
Most these kids come from relative poverty. For a lot of them, baseball is more than a game- it's a way to offer their families a better life. It's all about the money, and quite honestly, that doesn't bother me at all. Good for them.

I would be absolutely stunned if the Twins topped Chicago, Boston, LA and Texas to get this guy as a FA. I'm OK with that, given the large sum we have to spend on the international signing period.

diehardtwinsfan
06-12-2013, 02:43 PM
To reiteratre, he's a Cuban defector. Signing him does not count against the international pool.

Given his age/level, he fits in very nicely to what the Twins have coming up. This is a guy they should be aggressive with, especially given that they could likely have him for less than what they reduced payroll by this season.

Jeremy Nygaard
06-25-2013, 05:20 PM
Gonzalez has been declared a free agent. I believe I read this morning one exec saying that buying Key West and offering it to Gonzalez still wouldn't be enough.

Monkeypaws
06-25-2013, 05:27 PM
Ya never know; I was reading the Pioneer Press article on Arcia, and the reason he signed with us was because our scout Juan Padilla befriended him as a young guy.

The Twins are doing a better and better job in Latin America it seems to me.

Lets send Tony O to talk to him :D

diehardtwinsfan
06-25-2013, 06:13 PM
30 million is right about what the largest contracts given to Cubans has been... So how does this guy relate in comparison to a Jose Contreras?

diehardtwinsfan
06-27-2013, 07:38 PM
And if this is true... I think the Twins are out. I'd give it to him; it would certainly justify the lower budgets over the next few seasons, but no way TR and company does.

Cuban free agent Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez could sign for $60 million - Over the Monster (http://www.overthemonster.com/2013/6/27/4470426/cuban-free-agent-miguel-alfredo-gonzalez-red-sox-rumors)

Monkeypaws
06-27-2013, 09:10 PM
And if this is true... I think the Twins are out. I'd give it to him; it would certainly justify the lower budgets over the next few seasons, but no way TR and company does.

Cuban free agent Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez could sign for $60 million - Over the Monster (http://www.overthemonster.com/2013/6/27/4470426/cuban-free-agent-miguel-alfredo-gonzalez-red-sox-rumors)

Out, and rightly so - that is mad money!

gunnarthor
06-27-2013, 09:25 PM
I don't know anything about this guy so I'm assuming he's a legit potential front line starter who can pitch in the majors next year. With that said, I'm actually going to agree with Mike Wants Wins and say the Twins should try to get him. Unlike Sanchez, for instance, he'd be in his prime seasons at the same time Sano et al are ready to contribute. 4 or 5 years and 60m is doable. A potential rotation with him, Meyer, May, Worley, Gibson would go nicely with our future lineups.

nicksaviking
06-27-2013, 10:02 PM
Out, and rightly so - that is mad money!

Right but that's just your pride talking. The Twins won't be handcuffed by overpaying and missing on a guy at this point. This team will not be anywhere near payroll limitations for a long time.


Is it 4 years at $15? 5 years at $12 million? 6 years at $10? The first two options pay the highest per year but the risk is minimized by the years. For four or even five years the Twins will have no payroll concerns. That is not too much of a risk, particularly considering very few usable free agent pitchers come available any longer and they go for much more than this. Besides, I am so tired of the Twins nickle and diming the free agent market. I'd rather take a shot at a front line starter at $12 million per season than play it safe with three or four replacement level vets like this team always does.

This front office needs to seriously start asking themselves why they'd rather sign a replacement level group of players like Correia, Pelfrey and Carroll as opposed to one pitcher for the same amount. Here we are sitting in June and all three of those guys could already be replaced by league minimum salaried players in AAA. This free agency tactic is much more monetarily wasteful but the Twins front office is blind to this fact.

drjim
06-27-2013, 10:04 PM
My guess is it exceeds $60 mil. By a lot.

Monkeypaws
06-27-2013, 10:26 PM
Not pride - common sense.

Being a stud outside the major leagues is awesome, but not a secure investment at that level. There's a Dice K for every Yu Darvish, a Nishi for every Ichiro.

I prefer the approach they've taken in Latin America - get them young, and throw maybe 3 million at a Sano.

It's all moot, because the Twins would likely not win this bidding war anyways.

nicksaviking
06-27-2013, 11:07 PM
Not pride - common sense.

Being a stud outside the major leagues is awesome, but not a secure investment at that level. There's a Dice K for every Yu Darvish, a Nishi for every Ichiro.

I prefer the approach they've taken in Latin America - get them young, and throw maybe 3 million at a Sano.

It's all moot, because the Twins would likely not win this bidding war anyways.

I agree that they likely won't be willing to win the bidding war, but that doesn't mean they aren't able to. Still, as I mentioned in the previous post, making a mistake on a big signing will not harm this club as they won't be anywhere near payroll limitations.

Why the hesitation about making a mistake when it's an affordable one? Besides, they can no longer throw $3 million at a Sano, there are league imposed budget limitations on nearly every international player aside from a guy in this exact situation.

diehardtwinsfan
06-28-2013, 07:44 AM
you could get around some of it by giving the kid a nice signing bonus. That would lower the yearly amount.

As I said before, I'd give him the money, but it's pretty easy for me to spend the Pohlad's money.

I do think in terms of calculated risks, this one makes a bit more sense (assuming they think he's ML ready). He's 26 if I remember correctly, so he's a bit lower risk (and cheaper) than Sanchez or Grienke. That contract will take him through is prime years and fits nicely in with the next wave.

I'd probably rely on the scouts pretty heavily. If the kid is throwing mid 90s and locating his plus pitches, I'd do it.

kab21
06-28-2013, 08:00 PM
It's a risky move but people were talking about giving guys like Saunders 20-25M/3yrs. If the scouting reports actually match his stuff then 60/5yrs is not a bad deal. This team needs to add pitching talent that can help the team long term. Picking up non-elite 30+ yr olds for 8-10M/yr doesn't really do much long term. A 26 yr old with pretty good stuff would be a huge get for the Twins even if it is risky.

Reginald Maudling's Shin
06-29-2013, 08:06 PM
It's hard to gauge whether or not this is a good idea to pursue or not, I don't know if the $60M is for 3 yrs, 5 yrs, or what. On one hand you could be buying a front of hand rotation starter for less than market value, but OTOH you could be out 60M for the next Dice-K. I'd guess I'd wager more towards the former based on some recent history) not including Nishi). Cespedes stepped right in for the A's, for example. BTW it's a good sign the Nishi debacle hasn't stopped them from at least considering International free agents.

Is love to see the Twins get him but I think the chances are pretty slim.

Thrylos
06-29-2013, 08:42 PM
There's a Dice K for every Yu Darvish, .

FYI:
Matsuzaka
a. won a world series with his team (Boston)
b. went 18-3 with a sub 3 ERA

2 things that Darvish has not done yet in the major leagues.

Dice-K all in all has had a better MLB career than Darvish. In 2-3 years this might change, but this is nothing like Nishioka and Ichiro...

nicksaviking
07-21-2013, 12:50 PM
Peter Gammons is reporting that the Dodgers are preparing to offer Gonzalez a 5 year $50 million deal and he'll likely accept. That's lower than we have been speculating. If we assume the Twins would have to pay more, what would it take? 5 year $55 million? $60? It's a lot of money, but really not that pricey if he is your highest paid pitcher, and by a lot. I understand the reports indicate Ryan won't go for it but this is frustrating if true. $12 million per year easily fits in the budget for the next half decade.

Roaddog
07-21-2013, 01:23 PM
I think the problem is, after nishi, they are gonna be a little leery on some of these established international guys. Just my thought.

cmb0252
07-21-2013, 01:30 PM
Peter Gammons is reporting that the Dodgers are preparing to offer Gonzalez a 5 year $50 million deal and he'll likely accept. That's lower than we have been speculating. If we assume the Twins would have to pay more, what would it take? 5 year $55 million? $60? It's a lot of money, but really not that pricey if he is your highest paid pitcher, and by a lot. I understand the reports indicate Ryan won't go for it but this is frustrating if true. $12 million per year easily fits in the budget for the next half decade.

If we offered him $60 million what would stop the dodgers from turning around and upping their offer? I'm not saying this should stop us from doing it but as the dodgers proved with grienke, if they want someone they are going to get them.

AM.
07-21-2013, 03:01 PM
Don't the Dodgers have something like 8 starting pitchers?

I'm with Ruesse and the rest of the board on this...take a shot at someone like this rather spend $10mm each year on the Livan Hernandez, Ramon Ortiz, Mike Pelfrey, and Kevin Correias.

nicksaviking
07-21-2013, 03:55 PM
If we offered him $60 million what would stop the dodgers from turning around and upping their offer? I'm not saying this should stop us from doing it but as the dodgers proved with grienke, if they want someone they are going to get them.

So the lesson is the Twins should never bid on anyone because the Dodgers can pay more? As mentioned above, the Dodgers already have ton of starting pitching candidates. They can certainly afford him, but perhaps they get to a price where they decide they don't need him considering their depth. The Twins don't have that luxery.

Besides, if the Twins offered $60 and the Dodgers countered at that price and got him, isn't that a victory making another team pay $10 million more than they originally intended?

Monkeypaws
07-21-2013, 04:17 PM
So the lesson is the Twins should never bid on anyone because the Dodgers can pay more? As mentioned above, the Dodgers already have ton of starting pitching candidates. They can certainly afford him, but perhaps they get to a price where they decide they don't need him considering their depth. The Twins don't have that luxery.

Besides, if the Twins offered $60 and the Dodgers countered at that price and got him, isn't that a victory making another team pay $10 million more than they originally intended?

I thought this funny money didn't matter. ;)

Brandon
07-21-2013, 04:33 PM
We could front load the contract too with all of the money we have available. We could offer a 5 year 60 million with a 10 million signing bonus that gets paid out the first 2 years. so that we are only paying 10 million per season when the younger guys are starting to hit arbitration. I am not saying we'll win the bidding but its pretty chicken crap of the organization to back down because someone is getting market value all of the time.

While one contract may be an overpay and I'll admit we don't want many of those. It wont kill our budget to take a chance and mess up every once and a while. That is why I don't blame the Nishi signing there wasn't much on the FA market for 2B that year (except they used that one as an excuse to trade Hardy and that was dumb cause in that instance you keep Hardy no questions). There is no one in the rotation I would mind the Twins trading because of signing this guy.

I'll even throw this out there, this signing won't cost us a draft pick either.

diehardtwinsfan
07-21-2013, 04:47 PM
I'd argue this is a better use of our unspent resources that will exist over the next couple of seasons than anything else they can do. The kid has had a couple years off so not nearly as much mileage on the arm as some other pitchers his age. I know the Twins have scouted him, so if he passed those tests, I think they should do it... Plus, this doesn't count against any caps.

Of course it's not my money.

cmb0252
07-21-2013, 04:57 PM
So the lesson is the Twins should never bid on anyone because the Dodgers can pay more? As mentioned above, the Dodgers already have ton of starting pitching candidates. They can certainly afford him, but perhaps they get to a price where they decide they don't need him considering their depth. The Twins don't have that luxery.

Besides, if the Twins offered $60 and the Dodgers countered at that price and got him, isn't that a victory making another team pay $10 million more than they originally intended?

I'm pretty sure if you are asking me if the lesson is to never bid against the Dodgers you obviously misread my post. I even said that it shouldn't stop us. All I was saying was that simply saying offer him a little more money doesn't guarantee we will get him. This isn't a Japanese player where you bid and the highest bid wins. He is a FA so teams can counter your offer.

nicksaviking
07-21-2013, 07:47 PM
I'm pretty sure if you are asking me if the lesson is to never bid against the Dodgers you obviously misread my post. I even said that it shouldn't stop us. All I was saying was that simply saying offer him a little more money doesn't guarantee we will get him. This isn't a Japanese player where you bid and the highest bid wins. He is a FA so teams can counter your offer.

I didn't misread, just mis-interpreted. I didn't mean to imply we weren't on the same page, it appears we are.

Otwins
07-22-2013, 12:16 AM
Rosenthal on Foxsports.com says that his sources say that the Dodger's interest is not as fervent as has been portrayed. Maybe price is not as high as has been speculated. Of course an agent would never make it sound like the Dodgers were going to bid 50 million when they are not.

USMCTwin
07-23-2013, 08:19 AM
Dodgers Unlikely To Pursue Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com (http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/07/dodgers-unlikely-to-pursue-miguel-alfredo-gonzalez.html)

I wonder if this makes it any more likely that we can sneak in there with a bid.

InfraRen
07-23-2013, 09:22 AM
Jesse Sanchez ‏@JesseSanchezMLB (https://twitter.com/JesseSanchezMLB)15m (https://twitter.com/JesseSanchezMLB/status/359675847000596480)
#BlueJays (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BlueJays&src=hash), #Braves (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Braves&src=hash), #Cubs (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Cubs&src=hash), #Marlins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Marlins&src=hash), #Phillies (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Phillies&src=hash), #Rangers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Rangers&src=hash), #RedSox (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23RedSox&src=hash), #Twins (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Twins&src=hash) & #Yankees (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Yankees&src=hash) #LAD (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23LAD&src=hash) among teams with interest last week, @StivBators (https://twitter.com/StivBators)

View conversation (https://twitter.com/JesseSanchezMLB/status/359675847000596480)




https://si0.twimg.com/profile_images/2243997390/sanchezsedona_normal.jpgJesse Sanchez ‏@JesseSanchezMLB (https://twitter.com/JesseSanchezMLB)26m (https://twitter.com/JesseSanchezMLB/status/359673275078553601)
I'm as surprised as anyone to see report that #Dodgers (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Dodgers&src=hash) are no longer interested in Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez. That's a big deal at this stage.

beckmt
07-23-2013, 09:35 AM
Would hope the Twins would find the money to sign him. We need major league ready starting pitching ASAP.

diehardtwinsfan
07-23-2013, 11:31 AM
I don't know if we can outbid the redsox/yankees, but I think we have to at least try. Agreed with Beckmt, we need ML ready impact pitching, and he's about as close to it gets... Given his age, this makes much more sense than browing the FA market this offseason. I'd rather give him 50M than a Hughes type guy...

PseudoSABR
07-23-2013, 12:15 PM
If money-dumping Dodgers have lost interest, I wonder if there's some serious redflags (injury/age/peds)...

kab21
07-24-2013, 09:03 AM
If money-dumping Dodgers have lost interest, I wonder if there's some serious redflags (injury/age/peds)...

I have actually wondered what the limits of the Dodger's budget is. They have tried to show that it is limitless but every team (even the Yankees) has a limit. Additionally the Dodgers have a 200M extension with Kershaw on the horizon and they will be maxing out the luxury tax penalties.

nicksaviking
07-25-2013, 12:30 PM
Ben Badler at BA says that Gonzalez' ceiling is a #3 starter and floor is a long reliever. I don't have a subscription, can anyone give any more details? That isn't a very glowing assesment and typically #3 starters and long relievers don't throw hard or strike many batters out. Or maybe I just shouldn't be comparing him to the Twins #3 starters and long relievers.

cmb0252
07-25-2013, 01:53 PM
From Keith Law:

Haven't seen except a little video. Have talked to several scouts who did, general reports seem to have him as a likely above-average MLB starter, fastball up to 96, plus slider, four pitches, arm works. I can't imagine dealing with the inflation in Cuban free agents, but he's got to be worth $40MM+ in this market.

Jeremy Nygaard
07-26-2013, 10:07 PM
Phillies win the bidding war. 6 yr, $50m with a vesting option. Likely to become the largest contract ever for an international signee.

PseudoSABR
07-26-2013, 11:14 PM
That's a lot, for a supposedly mid-rotation starter. Sometimes the unknown has more value than the known.

nicksaviking
07-27-2013, 12:10 AM
The total contract is big for a mid-rotation guy, but $8 million per year really isn't.

I wonder about that #3 starter stuff though. Kind of strange it came out in the week leading up to his signing. Seems to me things like that might get passed around with the intent to drive his price down or chase other teams away. Most guys with 96 mph fastballs have higher upside, particularly guys who throw 96 mph while still shaking two years of rust off.

kab21
07-27-2013, 07:41 PM
That's a lot, for a supposedly mid-rotation starter. Sometimes the unknown has more value than the known.

As opposed to what guys like Buehrle, Wilson and Jackson have signed for?

nicksaviking
08-30-2013, 03:08 PM
He ends up signing for the reduced sum of 3 years at $12 million.

Blah, blah, blah 29 other clubs also passed on him but he's not worth a gamble for the Twins at say 3 years at $15 million? That's #5 starter/swingman money. Well for most teams.

cmb0252
08-30-2013, 03:18 PM
Injury concerns scared most teams away.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 03:31 PM
$4MM a year is too much to risk on a guy with upside, but signing KC is a good idea?

howieramone
08-30-2013, 03:47 PM
$4MM a year is too much to risk on a guy with upside, but signing KC is a good idea?

The original deal was 6 years for 50M+. Due to elbow concerns, it was revised to 3 years for 12M by the same team. Anyone see any red flags here?

cmb0252
08-30-2013, 03:53 PM
The original deal was 6 years for 50M+. Due to elbow concerns, it was revised to 3 years for 12M by the same team. Anyone see any red flags here?

Major red flags but people are still going to complain about the front office because that's the hip thing to do now of days. Ben Badler tweeted today that the highest praise he heard from a scout was a #3 pitcher, while several told him they see him as a middle reliever. Add in an apparent major injury concern and no thanks.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 05:04 PM
Major red flags but people are still going to complain about the front office because that's the hip thing to do now of days. Ben Badler tweeted today that the highest praise he heard from a scout was a #3 pitcher, while several told him they see him as a middle reliever. Add in an apparent major injury concern and no thanks.

You don't think the Twins could use a #3 starter for just 3/12?
This team gave Nick Blackburn, at best a #5 starter, 4/14.
This team gave Kevin Correia, at best a #5 starter, 2/10.

I can see why most teams would shy away from him. Most teams already have a #3 pitcher.
But for a team as devoid of starting pitching as the Twins, a team with nothing but #5/AAAA pitchers, a team literally drowning in payroll flexibility, I just don't see that much risk.
4 million per, and 12 million total really isnt that much to swallow if it doesn't work out.

jorgenswest
08-30-2013, 05:16 PM
Is it correct to assume that he would sign with the Twins for the same contract?

In Gonzalez' case, he also wants to set himself up for his next contract. I really don't think the a Twins are an ideal place for that to happen. They have had little success developing pitchers. For the last two years, Target Field has been 10th in park factor leaning towards a hitter's park. Citizen's Bank has been 19th and 5th. The Twins have several players who are among the poorest defensively at their positions. The Twins play in the AL.

If the offers had been comparable, I would think an agent would advise going to the Phillies.

Mr. Brooks
08-30-2013, 05:43 PM
Is it correct to assume that he would sign with the Twins for the same contract?

In Gonzalez' case, he also wants to set himself up for his next contract. I really don't think the a Twins are an ideal place for that to happen. They have had little success developing pitchers. For the last two years, Target Field has been 10th in park factor leaning towards a hitter's park. Citizen's Bank has been 19th and 5th. The Twins have several players who are among the poorest defensively at their positions. The Twins play in the AL.

If the offers had been comparable, I would think an agent would advise going to the Phillies.

Okay, then say we offer 4/24? After all, with the payroll flexibility the Twins have right now, is that extra $2 MM per going to matter all that much?
Tell me where else the Twins are going to find a #3 starter for $6 million per year? They just paid $5 million per for a #5 starter.
Look, I'm just saying the Twins need to change their approach. If you want to, you can find flaws and red flags regarding any and all international free agents. At some point the Twins are going to have to say, "you know what, this guy is a risk. We might get burned, but hey, right now we can afford it. We are going to go out on a limb and take a chance on one of these guys."

The Twins are too risk adverse when it comes to these types of players, IMO.

mike wants wins
08-30-2013, 05:57 PM
I assume you are all opposed to josh Johnson and lincecum and every injured ML pitcher? They are rolling in money, what is the harm in trying? I will take this all back if they sign Tanaka, btw.

TheLeviathan
08-30-2013, 10:31 PM
If the offers had been comparable, I would think an agent would advise going to the Phillies.

The Phillies also pitch in a park (true or not) that has a reputation as a bandbox and is about to undergo a major rebuild most likely.

I think, on a team with a lot of immediate opportunities, in a relatively pitcher friendly park, might be a nice place to establish a career. One could make the case either way.

I do know that if there is any team in the league that has some wiggle room to gamble on red flags, it's the Twins. Doesn't have to be this one necessarily, but it shouldn't deter us automatically either.

howieramone
08-30-2013, 11:12 PM
Okay, then say we offer 4/24? After all, with the payroll flexibility the Twins have right now, is that extra $2 MM per going to matter all that much?
Tell me where else the Twins are going to find a #3 starter for $6 million per year? They just paid $5 million per for a #5 starter.
Look, I'm just saying the Twins need to change their approach. If you want to, you can find flaws and red flags regarding any and all international free agents. At some point the Twins are going to have to say, "you know what, this guy is a risk. We might get burned, but hey, right now we can afford it. We are going to go out on a limb and take a chance on one of these guys."

The Twins are too risk adverse when it comes to these types of players, IMO.

After the Phillies cut their deal by over half, you feel the Twins should have swooped in? This is a player who hasn't played organized ball in over 2 years and now has a major injury concern. Your basic rational is they should do it since they can afford to, which incidentally every other team can also. I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment, if you think the Twins or most teams for that matter, will make this type of deal.

Oxtung
08-30-2013, 11:33 PM
After the Phillies cut their deal by over half, you feel the Twins should have swooped in? This is a player who hasn't played organized ball in over 2 years and now has a major injury concern. Your basic rational is they should do it since they can afford to, which incidentally every other team can also. I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment, if you think the Twins or most teams for that matter, will make this type of deal.

Sure most other teams could, but the Twins aren't other teams and to pretend they are even in remotely the same situations is disingenuous. The Twins have the need and the money to sign a rotation upgrade. Clearly they just don't have the will. That is disappointing.

howieramone
08-30-2013, 11:54 PM
Sure most other teams could, but the Twins aren't other teams and to pretend they are even in remotely the same situations is disingenuous. The Twins have the need and the money to sign a rotation upgrade. Clearly they just don't have the will. That is disappointing.

I believe the Twins are similar to more teams than they are dissimilar to. I agree the Twins have the need and money to sign a rotation upgrade. My post was meant to address Gonzalez only and I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

nicksaviking
08-31-2013, 12:24 AM
After the Phillies cut their deal by over half, you feel the Twins should have swooped in? This is a player who hasn't played organized ball in over 2 years and now has a major injury concern. Your basic rational is they should do it since they can afford to, which incidentally every other team can also. I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment, if you think the Twins or most teams for that matter, will make this type of deal.

Right, but a 3 year $15 million deal would have had next to no impact on the Twins financially. Their payroll flexibility is about to become obscene for a team in a brand new ballpark. The Twins already felt comfortable enough blowing that money on two guys who were much more certain to be busts in Correia and Pelfrey, neither of whom anyone would ever say had the ceiling of a #3 pitcher.

Oxtung
08-31-2013, 12:33 AM
I believe the Twins are similar to more teams than they are dissimilar to. I agree the Twins have the need and money to sign a rotation upgrade. My post was meant to address Gonzalez only and I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

Can you explain why you think the Twins are similar to most teams when it comes to starting pitching? I think current rotation results alone would eliminate all but about 2 or 3 teams. When you add in "payroll flexibility", lack of long term commitments/answers and our lack of internal options for next seasons rotation I would guess that number drops to 0. I haven't looked this up but I have a strong hunch the Twins are the only team in the bottom 10 of ERA, will have $60+ million available for FA's, and have 1, possibly 2, pitchers "locked" into the 2014 rotation to start the season (even those come with big questions).

Oxtung
08-31-2013, 12:34 AM
Right, but a 3 year $15 million deal would have had next to no impact on the Twins financially. Their payroll flexibility is about to become obscene for a team in a brand new ballpark. The Twins already felt comfortable enough blowing that money on two guys who were much more certain to be busts in Correia and Pelfrey, neither of whom anyone would ever say had the ceiling of a #3 pitcher.

I don't know, I heard Correia was a darn good pitcher.:cry:

jokin
08-31-2013, 12:35 AM
I believe the Twins are similar to more teams than they are dissimilar to. I agree the Twins have the need and money to sign a rotation upgrade. My post was meant to address Gonzalez only and I apologize if I didn't make that clear.

I beg to differ....One of These Teams is Not Like the Other!

Twins last-place SP K/9 rate: 4.83
29th-rated team SP K/9 rate: 6.11

The 29th-rated team (Indians) is numerically closer to the 12th-ranked team in K/9 than the Twins are to the Indians.

old nurse
08-31-2013, 07:12 AM
Essentially the guy failed his physical. The team and the agent reached an agreement on a different contract. Somehow the Twins were supposed to know that the guy failed his physical to offer a better contract??

maxisagod
08-31-2013, 08:35 AM
Essentially the guy failed his physical. The team and the agent reached an agreement on a different contract. Somehow the Twins were supposed to know that the guy failed his physical to offer a better contract??

Right. The only thing worse for a player's leverage than failing a Physical is failing a second Physical with a different team. I doubt the Agent contacted any other teams after that happened and just worked on a deal with the Phillies.