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View Full Version : Article: Twins MLB Draft Profile: Jonathan Gray, RHP



John Bonnes
06-02-2013, 09:27 PM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1823-Twins-MLB-Draft-Profile-Jonathan-Gray-RHP

diehardtwinsfan
06-03-2013, 07:35 AM
I cannot think of a reason why this pick would fall under "the Twins messed up b/c". He's likely not going to be there at 4, and if by chance he is, we'd be silly not to take him.

mike wants wins
06-03-2013, 08:03 AM
I'd think that anyone second guessing this pick would have to be doing so from hindsight. I can't think of a reason, given what we know today, why you would not take him if he is there (other than Appel also being there, I guess).

Gernzy
06-03-2013, 08:30 AM
I really hope he falls to us at #4. And if he does we better take him...

mlhouse
06-03-2013, 11:15 AM
No way the Twins pass on Gray if he falls to #4. I seriously doubt that happens. The Law Mock was some sort of idiosyncratic type of mock not based on any logic. The only possibility of Gray or Appel falling to the Twins is if somehow Stewart got in the mix with the top selection.

As it is, I have long advocated a college arm with the #4, but after talking with my cousin who is a Texas A&M grad, he thinks the slotted bonus amount for #4 is enough to get Stewart signed. And, the fact that the Twins would be protected with a #5 pick next year helps mitigate any signability risk.

mike wants wins
06-03-2013, 11:20 AM
the Law mock is based on coversations with front office personnel......and it is certainly possible that Houston tries what they tried last year.

cmb0252
06-03-2013, 12:53 PM
I cannot think of a reason why this pick would fall under "the Twins messed up b/c". He's likely not going to be there at 4, and if by chance he is, we'd be silly not to take him.

While I agree I will play devil's advocate for fun.

Do people know why Gray wasn't on many boards coming into the year even though he had possessed a mid+ 90's fastball since HS? He had a history of having a poor work ethic which led to poor results on the field. He was constantly out of shape which led to inconsistent mechanics. Can he keep up the effort to stay in shape? Can he develop a change up? Unlike Appel there just isn't a track record to know for sure.

Ok, no more devils advocate. I love Gray and have him #1 on my board. I still don't believe he will fall to #4 but if he does I will be bouncing off the walls. Go Twins!

drjim
06-03-2013, 03:53 PM
I'd think that anyone second guessing this pick would have to be doing so from hindsight. I can't think of a reason, given what we know today, why you would not take him if he is there (other than Appel also being there, I guess).

I can't imagine someone criticizing a draft pick or draft record out of hindsight.

nicksaviking
06-03-2013, 04:04 PM
I can't imagine someone criticizing a draft pick or draft record out of hindsight.

I think the Twins should have kept Santana instead of trading him and picked Mike Trout and Tyler Skaggs with the two comp picks they would have gotten for him.

gunnarthor
06-03-2013, 04:38 PM
From what I've read about Gray the question is whether he can develop a 3rd pitch. If he ends up just a high velocity bullpen arm, it's a bad pick. I would prefer Appel and Bryant to him so if he's there, we should obviously take him. But if the Twins took Stewart over him, I'd probably be ok with it b/c they (presumably) would feel that Stewart was more likely to become a true ace. If they took McGuire and saved money, I'd be pretty upset.

Jeremy Nygaard
06-03-2013, 04:57 PM
Apparently Gray tested positive for a banned stimulant at pre-draft testing. No suspension, but will face additional tests.

gunnarthor
06-03-2013, 04:59 PM
Apparently Gray tested positive for a banned stimulant at pre-draft testing. No suspension, but will face additional tests.

Well, that'll knock him down a few lists, maybe even ours.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/draft/2013/story/_/id/9338983/top-draft-prospect-jonathan-gray-had-positive-test-adderall

Adderall. Used for ADHD. Helps focus. Klaw doesn't think it'll hurt his draft stock.

darin617
06-03-2013, 05:44 PM
Apparently Gray tested positive for a banned stimulant at pre-draft testing. No suspension, but will face additional tests.

That would have to easily scare Houston away from drafting him and I don't think they want anything to do with Appel after they wanted nothing to do with him and if he is #1 Boras will make sure he gets every penny he can squeeze out if him.
I know we are talking about Gray here but you would have to think this will push Houston to taking Colin Moran, giving the Twins one of the top 3 studs.

jorgenswest
06-03-2013, 05:54 PM
Is it possible that Houston will be more likely to draft him?

He must know that this could effect his slot. Would that make him more willing to take below slot money? Houston might be able to get him to accept a contract slotted for picks 4 or 5 and draft him number 1.

Red Bull
06-03-2013, 05:59 PM
Gray testing positive for Adderal could hurt the Twins. If Gray falls down draft boards including the Twins that could mean that one of the top 3 teams that would of picked Gray could move him down and instead take Stewart, and if the Twins dont like Gray anymore either it may mean that they would just take Mcguire because Bryant, Appel and Stewart are all gone.

maxisagod
06-03-2013, 06:29 PM
Gray testing positive for Adderal could hurt the Twins. If Gray falls down draft boards including the Twins that could mean that one of the top 3 teams that would of picked Gray could move him down and instead take Stewart, and if the Twins dont like Gray anymore either it may mean that they would just take Mcguire because Bryant, Appel and Stewart are all gone.

I follow you. I haven't heard of any of the top 3 teams connected to Stewart, so I have to think he,s ceiling is still 4. The Twins are big on character though, so I agree with you it is a possiblity the Twins pass on Gray at 4.

Shane Wahl
06-03-2013, 07:07 PM
A college student tested positive for Adderall? No ****.

Anyway, if he falls to 4 and the Twins do not take him, I am going to go ballistic. Other than him at that spot (and assuming Stewart would be gone), I like Shipley or Ball.

Red Bull
06-03-2013, 09:05 PM
A college student tested positive for Adderall? No ****.

Anyway, if he falls to 4 and the Twins do not take him, I am going to go ballistic. Other than him at that spot (and assuming Stewart would be gone), I like Shipley or Ball.

I agree If they passed on Gray I would absolutely freak out. Assuming Stewart is gone too I like Shipley and Ball to but less Shipley. Hes could be a longer wait than Stewart even, he just recently became a pitcher and I heard he could take up to 5 years to develop.

gunnarthor
06-03-2013, 09:17 PM
A college student tested positive for Adderall? No ****.
.

I mostly agree with you but ... 1) other students (Appel, Shipley) managed to do fine without it or were smart enough to know how not to get caught. 2) Coming into the year, Gray wasn't this good, as CMB mentioned. Did Adderall help him with his focus? If so, how would he do without it? Revert to the 3rd round arm he was last year?

I don't necessarily think Gray is a bad pick and I'd be thrilled to have him but I think those are fair questions teams should be looking at.

PseudoSABR
06-03-2013, 09:20 PM
Adderall, I imagine, is a significantly stronger, better performing stimulant than, say, the greenies players took in the 70s and 80s to gain an edge. I wouldn't dismiss the benefits such a drug would give players out on the mound, given how much focus, concentration, and mental endurance are part of a good pitcher's make up.

diehardtwinsfan
06-03-2013, 09:29 PM
I'm not sure it adds focus. It's counterintuitive, but stimulants work on ADHD people a bit different than they do the rest of us. It allows them to concentrate where they could not proper... It just amps up everyone else. If it's a concentration thing, he's likely ADHD and can get a prescription for it.

That said, the question I have is how many ticks can Adderall add to your fastball. If he suddenly cannot hit 100 MPH and can only hit say 96, is he the same prospect he was prior to this?

Red Bull
06-03-2013, 09:50 PM
Adderall, I imagine, is a significantly stronger, better performing stimulant than, say, the greenies players took in the 70s and 80s to gain an edge. I wouldn't dismiss the benefits such a drug would give players out on the mound, given how much focus, concentration, and mental endurance are part of a good pitcher's make up.

Heres whats up with Adderal. Its an Amphetamine which means its a stimulant. It would help to know how much he was taking because theres a big difference if he was taking a little compared to alot. If you take a small dose(Which is what students usulay do) you dont really notice anything, you just stay awake longer. If you take a large dose you get alot of energy, become very focused and you get Euphoria. When you take a large dose you feel like you could do anything, you just feel so good and energized. Its like you want to work because you have so much energy and euphoria. Thats why taking a large dose really does give a player an edge.

If hes taking high doses I wouldnt take this guy. Like I said with a high dose you get an amazing edge. Maybe thats why he was so good this year compared to last year? Btw im a recovering addict that has done every drug out there. A high dose of amphetamines is one of the best highs, you feel like superman.

Jeremy Nygaard
06-03-2013, 10:15 PM
I don't think it's so much that he's on Adderall. It's that he didn't jump through the necessary hoops (go to the doctor and get a prescription) to legally possess the drug.

That's what I've been told anyway.

PseudoSABR
06-03-2013, 10:40 PM
Based on conversations with scouts and agents, neither player figures to drop because of the positive tests. Two club officials said their teams believed Gray’s use of Adderall was a one-time mistake and wouldn’t be held against him.Glassey of BA (http://www.baseballamerica.com/college/jonathan-gray-and-aaron-blair-test-positive-for-adderall/)

Red Bull
06-04-2013, 04:12 AM
I don't think it's so much that he's on Adderall. It's that he didn't jump through the necessary hoops (go to the doctor and get a prescription) to legally possess the drug.

That's what I've been told anyway.

Thats another angle to look at but if hes getting jacked up before games hes giving imself an edge. Unless you have felt that edge you dont know what im talking about. It gives you so much energy and makes you feel so good. You feel like superman. It would allow him to have a high energy level and be able to sustain it throughout the game. Everyone says its so amazing how he keeps his velocity up in the later innings, this could be the reason hes able to do that.

Ncgo4
06-04-2013, 04:51 AM
"A poor work ethic", "Consistently out of shape", and now we find out he's amping up before games? I don't care if he can throw it 95 MPH through a key hole the twins don't touch this kid. This all points to emotional & character issues and we've been there and done that with Mr. Young. He'll be available and the Twins will pass and that will be a good thing.

mike wants wins
06-04-2013, 08:41 AM
Baseball has a super rich history of greenies and other stimulants......it's funny to me that people think this is a big deal.

It does not point to character or emotional issues, it points to using a stimulant, like coffee or red bull or greenies or whatever that professional athletes have been using since the, well, forever.

Ncgo4
06-04-2013, 09:04 AM
If it were just that, i'd agree. But CMB0252 mentioned the other two things and together they raise (to my mind at least) a big character issue.

Badsmerf
06-04-2013, 09:47 AM
No, it does not give him an edge. If he were taking the LSAT then maybe it would, but we're not. His FB isn't going to be 1-2 mph faster, his slider isn't going to break any more, this drug is not a physical drug. Now, he might be able to remember specific game-plans or pitches batter missed or even how many outs there are. Just because you "feel" like superman, does not make you superman. Stimulants are for the brain, steroids are for the body. They are not, and do not do the same thing. I have a hard time believe adderall has played much into his season at all, unless he actually needs to use it.

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 09:52 AM
No, it does not give him an edge. If he were taking the LSAT then maybe it would, but we're not. His FB isn't going to be 1-2 mph faster, his slider isn't going to break any more, this drug is not a physical drug. Now, he might be able to remember specific game-plans or pitches batter missed or even how many outs there are. Just because you "feel" like superman, does not make you superman. Stimulants are for the brain, steroids are for the body. They are not, and do not do the same thing. I have a hard time believe adderall has played much into his season at all, unless he actually needs to use it.

More NFL (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000158836/article/richard-sherman-about-half-of-nfl-uses-adderall) players are using stimulants to improve performance. The brain is the master control for the body - sharpening your reflexes and attention to detail in a sport could very easily create some significant advantages. I've read a few stories NFL-centric (out of Seattle I think) saying stimulants like this are becoming a backdoor way for players to try and improve performance.

If a sport like football (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000159187/article/pierre-garcon-adderall-gives-players-an-upper-hand)- FAR more physical - is finding a use for this stimulant, I imagine you could in baseball as well. Especially when mental fatigue in a 162 game season is a very real factor.

mike wants wins
06-04-2013, 09:57 AM
KLAW report includes commentary from Tony Gwynn, estimating that more than half of MLB players while he played used stimulants........

Badsmerf
06-04-2013, 10:03 AM
I would argue that football is different in that many plays require fast reaction time. I can see how using a stimulant would be a benefit in that scenario. A pitcher isn't relying on reaction time, mostly just mental strength which a stimulant might hurt by increasing neural activity. I took it in college for a few all-nighters, and I found the positives to be mitigated by the negatives. Perhaps it is playing into his success and I'm wrong, I'm not a Dr. in neural, just taken a few classes on the brain.

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 10:10 AM
I would argue that football is different in that many plays require fast reaction time. I can see how using a stimulant would be a benefit in that scenario. A pitcher isn't relying on reaction time, mostly just mental strength which a stimulant might hurt by increasing neural activity. I took it in college for a few all-nighters, and I found the positives to be mitigated by the negatives. Perhaps it is playing into his success and I'm wrong, I'm not a Dr. in neural, just taken a few classes on the brain.

Well your earlier point was to refute it because it wasn't a physical booster and my point is that even in largely physical sports, mental acumen is crucial.

i don't know if it helps, but it sure seems there is a rich history of guys in baseball who believed it did.

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 10:19 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't any studies out there linking stimulants to improved play athletically, is there? Instead, what this says to me on its face is that the kid likes to get high.

nicksaviking
06-04-2013, 10:24 AM
Wow, what unfortunate timing for this report to come out. Obvioulsy a coincidence. Surely no unethical front office would leak this hoping he would slide to them.

mike wants wins
06-04-2013, 10:30 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't any studies out there linking stimulants to improved play athletically, is there? Instead, what this says to me on its face is that the kid likes to get high.

So all those MLB players like to get high? It isn't about studies, it is about belief, and for more than 6 decades at least, MLB players and others have believed that stimulants help them. heck, there are studies showing steroids don't help all that much, but people still took them.

Kwak
06-04-2013, 10:41 AM
College students/athletes taking drugs? Wow--earhshattering. You are aware ths stuff is routinely given to school kids in special Ed? Performance enhancing? Guys will darn near do anything to keep-up-with-the-Jones.

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 10:52 AM
So all those MLB players like to get high?

Would that be so far-fetched? Brain scans have shown that thrill seeking and addiction originate from the same area of the brain. Athletes tend to be thrill seekers.

And not to get too catchartic here but have you ever taken an ADHD test? They're a joke. As someone whose experimented with all manner of uppers, downers, laughers, and screamers, including Adderall, the main difference betwen Adderall and other drugs is that Adderall is much easier to get. It will get you just as high as other drugs.

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 10:56 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't any studies out there linking stimulants to improved play athletically, is there? Instead, what this says to me on its face is that the kid likes to get high.

I too believe that neither the world, nor any of it's phenomena, exist prior to double blind studies.

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 11:00 AM
I too believe that neither the world, nor any of it's phenomena, exist prior to double blind studies.

All I'm saying is that in my view, the bigger conclusion to draw when an athlete tests positive for a psychoactive like Adderall, as opposed to testosterone or HGH, is not just that you might have a cheater on your hands, its that you might also be looking at an addict.

Guys can work around a 50 game suspension. An addiction, maybe not.

mike wants wins
06-04-2013, 11:13 AM
So 50+ years of MLB players taking stimulants because they believe it improves their games, is all about addiction, and not what they've all said which is that it is about using PEDs?

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 11:17 AM
All I'm saying is that in my view, the bigger conclusion to draw when an athlete tests positive for a psychoactive like Adderall, as opposed to testosterone or HGH, is not just that you might have a cheater on your hands, its that you might also be looking at an addict.

Guys can work around a 50 game suspension. An addiction, maybe not.

That may in fact be a more dangerous conclusion, but in no way does a lack of studies confirming its use deny the potential positives on performance which I would argue was your actual point I'm refuting.

nicksaviking
06-04-2013, 11:21 AM
So 50+ years of MLB players taking stimulants because they believe it improves their games, is all about addiction, and not what they've all said which is that it is about using PEDs?

Right, this wasn't about addiction. Or are we to believe that when MLB cracked down on stimulants nearly the whole league quit cold turkey with hardly any instances of relapse or the need for medically assisted withdrawl?

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 11:36 AM
That may in fact be a more dangerous conclusion, but in no way does a lack of studies confirming its use deny the potential positives on performance which I would argue was your actual point I'm refuting.

Its tough to calculate Gray's true talent if the only evidence we have that stimulants actually improve performance -anecdotes from athletes, is invalid. A possiblity that nobody seems to consider. "But it helps me" could just as easily be rationalizing, as addicts are sometimes wont to do.

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 11:45 AM
Its tough to calculate Gray's true talent if the only evidence we have that stimulants actually improve performance -anecdotes from athletes, is invalid. A possiblity that nobody seems to consider. "But it helps me" could just as easily be rationalizing, as addicts are sometimes wont to do.

I would argue its not, in fact, just as easy to assume that everybody is a drug addict. That is such a ridiculous leap.

Shane Wahl
06-04-2013, 11:48 AM
Well there was a period of time around 2005 where I may have taken adderall as a recreational drug. May have done so. And it may be the case that I am surprised he is striking so many guys out instead of running up and hugging them and jabbering about how great the world is. It is flabbergasting that kids are given this.

I can't imagine it being a great athletic performance enhancer though. Unless you call drinking a lot an athletic performance.

Steve Lein
06-04-2013, 12:00 PM
I'm actually more surprised by Keith Law's article with the "one-time indiscretion" remarks.

That's completely laughable to me, but it appears MLB teams actually buy that BS, or they don't care...

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 12:01 PM
I would argue its not, in fact, just as easy to assume that everybody is a drug addict. That is such a ridiculous leap.

You deny there's a relationship between thrill seeking and addiction?

diehardtwinsfan
06-04-2013, 12:03 PM
Stimulants do improve performance, whether it be in recovery time or limited durability in games. I'm surprised this is being debated. As I said earlier, adderall will not help you "concentrate" unless you already have ADHD. As a stimulant though, it has other benefits, and let's not pretend it doesn't work. They woudln't be banning it from the NFL if it didn't. While I've personally never used it, there is plenty more than anecdotal evidence that stimulants improve performance. Speed and PCP are really good examples of drugs that can give you a temporary boost.

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 12:12 PM
You deny there's a relationship between thrill seeking and addiction?

No, I deny rushing to the conclusion he is a drug addict for using a substance players across eras and sports are/have been using as a performance enhancer is reasonable.

Shane Wahl
06-04-2013, 12:23 PM
It literally could have been used once to go out and party (which is dangerous because one doesn't feel getting drunker and drunker). Now the big a-word is being bandied about?

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 12:47 PM
No, I deny rushing to the conclusion he is a drug addict for using a substance players across eras and sports are/have been using as a performance enhancer is reasonable.

That is the reason. The link between thrill seeking and addiction. Either you deny that link, or you deny that athletes in general tend to be thrill seekers. You need to do one or the other, otherwise all the years of testimony from this bloc of drug users about how they are benefiting from the drugs is invalid.

Badsmerf
06-04-2013, 12:53 PM
I feel there is a lot of over-reaction about this.

TwinsFanInPhilly
06-04-2013, 12:53 PM
Today all the quant PhD's are Pharmacology PhD's - it's why I love this place

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 01:00 PM
That is the reason. The link between thrill seeking and addiction. Either you deny that link, or you deny that athletes in general tend to be thrill seekers. You need to do one or the other, otherwise all the years of testimony from this bloc of drug users about how they are benefiting from the drugs is invalid.

Wow. Just....wow. I concede, clearly the accusation that most athletes are addicts stands on irrefutable logic.

Wow.

Steve Lein
06-04-2013, 01:26 PM
It literally could have been used once to go out and party

You actually believe that would be the case?! Get out from under your rock...! q; )

nicksaviking
06-04-2013, 01:37 PM
That is the reason. The link between thrill seeking and addiction. Either you deny that link, or you deny that athletes in general tend to be thrill seekers. You need to do one or the other, otherwise all the years of testimony from this bloc of drug users about how they are benefiting from the drugs is invalid.

Athletes = Thrill Seekeres = Addicts?

How about the more likely:

Professional athletes = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ = cheating

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 02:21 PM
1 in 10 baseball players is has a meth prescription. Which means maybe 1 in 5 ballplayers is using since you can get your psychiatrist to up your doseage by simply saying "its not having much of an effect" and then share/sell the extra to your friends.

Say "meth" or "crank" instead of Adderall, because that's the street name for the same drug. Then does it sound more likely that we might be talking about addiction here? What we do know is that meth is highly addictive, and we're dealing with a very selective sample of the population, one that probably is at some elavated risk of addiction. What we don't know, is that using the drug is in any way beneficial to players, aside from their own testimony. But maybe the reason MLB banned beanies was because coaches and umpires got sick of dealing with strung out players all the time?

70charger
06-04-2013, 02:48 PM
Stimulants do improve performance, whether it be in recovery time or limited durability in games. I'm surprised this is being debated. As I said earlier, adderall will not help you "concentrate" unless you already have ADHD. As a stimulant though, it has other benefits, and let's not pretend it doesn't work. They woudln't be banning it from the NFL if it didn't. While I've personally never used it, there is plenty more than anecdotal evidence that stimulants improve performance. Speed and PCP are really good examples of drugs that can give you a temporary boost.

Stimulants do improve athletic performance; there is ample evidence for this. Back when I was a swimmer (Pac-10 college), we were routinely drug tested for stimulants, including methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine. Regardless of prescription, they are illegal in top-level swimming. Most of the guys I swam with (and I) just got all hopped up on coffee instead.

That said, an endurance/aerobic sport like swimming is fundamentally different from pitching. Certainly it's useful if you get tired after 110 pitches instead of 90 pitches, but while swimming is a game of hundredths of seconds, pitching is a game of hundredths of inches. Command, control, placement, whatever you want to call it, it's more important than aerobic endurance.

I actually wonder what kind of advantage a pitcher would get out of it. I'm not sure it'd be much. And while I don't think it beyond the pale to think a pitcher would take it for performance reasons, I'm not ready to draw any conclusions about Gray's use, or even to conclude that it hurts his draft stock.

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 03:10 PM
1 in 10 baseball players is has a meth prescription. Which means maybe 1 in 5 ballplayers is using since you can get your psychiatrist to up your doseage by simply saying "its not having much of an effect" and then share/sell the extra to your friends.

Say "meth" or "crank" instead of Adderall, because that's the street name for the same drug. Then does it sound more likely that we might be talking about addiction here? What we do know is that meth is highly addictive, and we're dealing with a very selective sample of the population, one that probably is at some elavated risk of addiction. What we don't know, is that using the drug is in any way beneficial to players, aside from their own testimony. But maybe the reason MLB banned beanies was because coaches and umpires got sick of dealing with strung out players all the time?

You realize by this same ridiculous logic one could call coffee drinkers "meth heads"?

Is this some kind of hilarious attempt at the utter destruction of your own credibility? If so, you sir are doing a mighty fine job. With each subsequent post in your "all athletes are meth addicts" rant, I know I am taking you less seriously.

In all seriousness, we are talking about some kid and his future and you are taking the discovery of a one time use of a prescribed stimulant and positing him a drug addict. That's just.....wow.

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 03:28 PM
Stimulants do improve athletic performance; there is ample evidence for this. Back when I was a swimmer (Pac-10 college), we were routinely drug tested for stimulants, including methylphenidate and dextroamphetamine. Regardless of prescription, they are illegal in top-level swimming. Most of the guys I swam with (and I) just got all hopped up on coffee instead.
Can I ask specifically what benefit do you get from stimulants in swimming?

gil4
06-04-2013, 03:28 PM
So all those MLB players like to get high? It isn't about studies, it is about belief, and for more than 6 decades at least, MLB players and others have believed that stimulants help them. heck, there are studies showing steroids don't help all that much, but people still took them.

Then when MLB started testing for steroids the HR totals went way down, which was completely unexpected, given that studies showed they don't help much.


Correct me if I'm wrong but there aren't any studies out there linking stimulants to improved play athletically, is there? Instead, what this says to me on its face is that the kid likes to get high.

I don't know if there have been studies done or not. My point above is that even if there have been studies done and they show little or no correlation, there is reason to be skeptical of the studies.

howieramone
06-04-2013, 03:34 PM
A college student tested positive for Adderall? No ****.

Anyway, if he falls to 4 and the Twins do not take him, I am going to go ballistic. Other than him at that spot (and assuming Stewart would be gone), I like Shipley or Ball.
Assuming they use due diligence, I'll consider it another smart move by the Twins.

mike wants wins
06-04-2013, 03:35 PM
I should have just left that part off.......the point is, athletes take steroids, HGH, stimulaants, and lots of other drugs because they think they work, no matter what any study does or does not say. That's not the only reason, but it's a big, big, big reason. Or maybe they are all just lying. Hard to say.

*edited for speeeeling.
**twice.....sigh

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 03:38 PM
I should have just left that part off.......the point is, athletes take steroids, HGH, stimulaants, and lots of other drugs because they think they work, no matter what any study does or does not stay. That's not the only reason, but it's a big, big, big reason. Or maybe they are all just lying. Hard to say.

*edited for speeeeling.

Pfft all thrill seeking drug addicts. Especially this 18 year old kid with a onetime mistake. Lets comp him to crack heads and meth heads....because that makes sense.

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 03:55 PM
You realize by this same ridiculous logic one could call coffee drinkers "meth heads"?

Is this some kind of hilarious attempt at the utter destruction of your own credibility? If so, you sir are doing a mighty fine job. With each subsequent post in your "all athletes are meth addicts" rant, I know I am taking you less seriously.

In all seriousness, we are talking about some kid and his future and you are taking the discovery of a one time use of a prescribed stimulant and positing him a drug addict. That's just.....wow.

Wrong on all counts except possibly the destruction of my own credibility, which I'd hoped to achieve a long time ago.

1. We're talking about Amphetamine, not caffeine. I'd agree its entirely possible to abuse caffeine but its just not as potent as speed and obviously isn't a schedule 2 substance.

2. Gray wasn't prescribed the Adderall, as I understand it. Not that I believe it matters for most people.

For whatever reason, certain drugs and cultures get tied up together. There are a lot of ballplayers who chew tobacco, for example. I suspect for the majority of them, they do it out of sheer addiction and not for any benefit. Maybe they do it because if they try to stop, they get thrown into a funk like when Hamilton tried to stop last October. Would speed use be any different?

And I"ll ask the same thing here that I asked charger. What exactly are the supposed benefits of stimulant use to pitching, or hitting, or fielding?

Red Bull
06-04-2013, 03:58 PM
Can I ask specifically what benefit do you get from stimulants in swimming?

You dont gain an advantage for a specific sport. If you take enough you get a ton of energy and drive aswell as Euphoria. You feel like you could run 10 miles without breaking a sweat, its gives you kind of an invincible feeling. A good comparison would be its like you have a ton of adrenaline that you can control and use it to your advantage. And on top of all the energy and drive is the Euphoria. You have a wave of pleasure running through your body.

TheLeviathan
06-04-2013, 04:05 PM
1. We're talking about Amphetamine, not caffeine. I'd agree its entirely possible to abuse caffeine but its just not as potent as speed and obviously isn't a schedule 2 substance.

The point is that if you want to lump a drug with the more sinister and powerful drugs in the same family, you could do that to make coffee drinkers into drug addicts. Just like caffeine isn't as potent as speed, adderall isn't crack. It was a stupid comparison.


And I"ll ask the same thing here that I asked charger. What exactly are the supposed benefits of stimulant use to pitching, or hitting, or fielding?

Maybe the extra focus and concentration allows them to recall past at-bats. Or zero in on their pitching target. Or focus better on the seams/spin of a baseball traveling 90mph. Or maybe to tune-out the crowd.

By all means, organize a study. But just because one hasn't been done to confirm the effects doesn't mean labeling people drug addicts based on a flimsy idea of "thrill seeking" and even flimsier lumping of all drugs with their most powerful cousins is a cogent argument.

The simplest explanation is usually the right one - in this case - because baseball players believes it makes them better baseball players. Your fallacy-ridden mess of an argument is little more than tinfoil hat ridiculousness.

Willihammer
06-04-2013, 04:06 PM
You dont gain an advantage for a specific sport. If you take enough you get a ton of energy and drive aswell as Euphoria. You feel like you could run 10 miles without breaking a sweat, its gives you kind of an invincible feeling. A good comparison would be its like you have a ton of adrenaline that you can control and use it to your advantage. And on top of all the energy and drive is the Euphoria. You have a wave of pleasure running through your body.

You get high, in other words.

Ncgo4
06-04-2013, 04:21 PM
All of this addict talk is silly without more evidence. What isn't silly are reports that Mr. Gray from time to time has not been very committed to his training. It is also, apparently true, that he has not done a very good job of controlling his weight. Both of these are red flags. In light of these issues an instance of using a prescription stimulant takes on added importance. Particularly so, if it was not his prescription. Drafted ball players are all risks, drafting a pitcher with several issues is too high a risk for the 4th pick.

nicksaviking
06-04-2013, 04:38 PM
Assuming they use due diligence, I'll consider it another smart move by the Twins.

Using that logic, I assume you consider every move by the Twins smart?

70charger
06-04-2013, 04:53 PM
Can I ask specifically what benefit do you get from stimulants in swimming?

Here's an article: The effect of amphetamines on selected ... [Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1980] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7392905?dopt=Abstract)
Here's one on caffeine: http://www.acsm.org/docs/current-comments/caffeineandexercise.pdf

It appears as though muscular endurance and strength are increased due to the stimulant's ability to mask fatigue.

Of course, like I said before, I think swimming is a fundamentally different sport than baseball, and I'm not exactly sure how stimulants would help a pitcher.

howieramone
06-04-2013, 05:01 PM
Using that logic, I assume you consider every move by the Twins smart?
What's your point?