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View Full Version : Article: Series Preview: Twins @ Royals, 4/8



Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 07:01 AM
You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=1536-Series-Preview-Twins-Royals-4-8

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 08:12 AM
Lineups:

Twins:
Aaron Hicks CF
Joe Mauer C
Josh Willingham RF
Justin Morneau 1B
Ryan Doumit DH
Trevor Plouffe 3B
Chris Parmelee LF
Brian Dozier 2B
Pedro Florimon SS
(Kevin Correia P)

Royals:
Alex Gordon LF
Alcides Escobar SS
Billy Butler DH
Mike Moustakas 3B
Salvador Perez C
Eric Hosmer 1B
Jeff Francoeur RF
Lorenzo Cain CF
Chris Getz 2B
(Ervin Santana P)

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-08-2013, 08:12 AM
My baseball road trip continues...

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 08:17 AM
My baseball road trip continues...

I know you were there for the Baltimore series... Are you travelling to KC now?

If so, eat some barbeque. I've been dying for some good barbeque.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 08:51 AM
RP: Thanks for doing these series previews and game threads. My guess is TD isn't paying you enough.

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-08-2013, 09:12 AM
I know you were there for the Baltimore series... Are you travelling to KC now?

If so, eat some barbeque. I've been dying for some good barbeque.

Yeah I will be at the game today tomorrow and wed. Then most likely to St. Louis for a game Thursday then Minnesota for the twins vs mets series, (though prob going to a wild game that sat). Hopefully the twins continue to win.

Best part is I have business folks to see in St. Louis and Minnesota so the trip ends up working out perfectly.

Chance
04-08-2013, 09:39 AM
Yeah I will be at the game today tomorrow and wed. Then most likely to St. Louis for a game Thursday then Minnesota for the twins vs mets series, (though prob going to a wild game that sat). Hopefully the twins continue to win.

Best part is I have business folks to see in St. Louis and Minnesota so the trip ends up working out perfectly.


Jealous.

mike wants wins
04-08-2013, 09:42 AM
It is much more entertaining to read threads about upcoming series this year than it was last year.....

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 10:12 AM
I know you were there for the Baltimore series... Are you travelling to KC now?

If so, eat some barbeque. I've been dying for some good barbeque.

From the best seafood city in America, to the best BBQ city in America. I'm jealous.

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-08-2013, 10:22 AM
Best seafood city in America is Seattle sir! Which I get to spend a few weeks in this summer ;)

Badsmerf
04-08-2013, 10:25 AM
Best seafood city in America is Seattle sir! Which I get to spend a few weeks in this summer ;)
If you didn't jump on that, I would have. No way does East Coast seafood compare to West Coast! I'm from Alaska, so a little bias here...

Willihammer
04-08-2013, 11:01 AM
Don't have to face Shields, that's a good start already!

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 11:04 AM
Don't have to face Shields, that's a good start already!

Yeah, dodging a bit of a bullet there. Hopefully the Twins can continue to win against mediocre pitching before facing some of the aces of the AL.

chuchadoro
04-08-2013, 11:10 AM
No matter what happens, we will always have those heady days of early April.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 11:20 AM
Have to love early April numbers.
Miguel Tejada and Eduardo Escobar are the team BA leaders coming into this series!
(Yes, I know neither has enough PA's to qualify)

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 11:50 AM
Have to love early April numbers.
Miguel Tejada and Eduardo Escobar are the team BA leaders coming into this series!
(Yes, I know neither has enough PA's to qualify)

With the way Gardy has used the bench, Escobar+Florimon+Ramirez together amount to a starting "shortstopinchitter" that does have very admirable stats to start the season, even if you take out the one start in the outfield.

edavis0308
04-08-2013, 12:00 PM
Yeah I will be at the game today tomorrow and wed. Then most likely to St. Louis for a game Thursday then Minnesota for the twins vs mets series, (though prob going to a wild game that sat). Hopefully the twins continue to win.

Best part is I have business folks to see in St. Louis and Minnesota so the trip ends up working out perfectly.

You best be going to Oklahoma Joe's.

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 12:37 PM
How long has Gordon been leading off? This is new this season no? Wasn't Cain leading off last year?

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 12:47 PM
How long has Gordon been leading off? This is new this season no? Wasn't Cain leading off last year?

Gordon had the majority of his PA's from the leadoff spot last year as well.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 01:10 PM
Yeah I will be at the game today tomorrow and wed. Then most likely to St. Louis for a game Thursday then Minnesota for the twins vs mets series, (though prob going to a wild game that sat). Hopefully the twins continue to win.

Best part is I have business folks to see in St. Louis and Minnesota so the trip ends up working out perfectly.

I'm extremely jealous of you. Baseball road trips would be at the top of my list of things to do.

If I just got in the car and started driving. I wonder how long it would take for my wife to notice that I wasn't around.

I might be able to make it a week before being called back home.

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 01:52 PM
How long has Gordon been leading off? This is new this season no? Wasn't Cain leading off last year?

Thanks, just looked it up. Must have seen him lead off against us last year at some point and that left the impression.

nokomismod
04-08-2013, 02:05 PM
I love KC and BBQ and Kaufman. Have fun for us SpiritofVodkaDave!

SpiritofVodkaDave
04-08-2013, 02:34 PM
I love KC and BBQ and Kaufman. Have fun for us SpiritofVodkaDave!

Will do! Opening days are always the best, tailgates everywhere and everyone is in a good mood. Hope the twins can win this series as well, it would be nice to at least have hope this season for a month or two at least, and at the end of the day....if you keep winning you never know what can happen!

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 02:46 PM
So what's up with the outfield? Willingham and Parmelee switching places? Or is that a typo?

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 02:47 PM
My guess is that it's a typo.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 03:22 PM
They must have told Hicksie to swing at anything with two strikes. :p

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 03:23 PM
Doumit: running bases with his head up is arse since circa forever.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 03:23 PM
Ugh! That was a buzz-kill. Was that Doumit's fault for not noticing that Morneau wasn't coming home?

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 03:27 PM
I would have sent Morneau and make the Royals throw him out with 2 outs. That being said, Doumit can't "pull a Bruno" and just put your head down and run 'till someone tags you.

buckninetyone
04-08-2013, 03:28 PM
i'll forgive doumit for that one, given morneau's blazing speed.

minn55441
04-08-2013, 03:36 PM
I'm at work, how do you score one run on 4 hits?

Morneau didn't score from second on a single with two outs? Doumit assumed he would just score and advanced from 1st to third only to find Morneau still standing on the bag?

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 03:38 PM
I was exercising and missed the first inning.

One run, four hits.

I don't even want to know how that happened.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 03:40 PM
I'm at work, how do you score one run on 4 hits?

Morneau didn't score from second on a single with two outs? Doumit assumed he would just score and advanced from 1st to third only to find Morneau still standing on the bag?Pretty much sums it up.

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 03:41 PM
Does Mauer need glasses or something? This is getting a little ridiculous.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 03:42 PM
Bi-optical weakness?

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 03:43 PM
I wonder if the runner distracted Florimon there.

snepp
04-08-2013, 03:44 PM
JHFC, Floor-ee-MOAN flashing his "tools" yet again.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 03:50 PM
Was anybody else cringing just a little when Florimon took that pop-up?

Alex
04-08-2013, 03:50 PM
I wonder if the runner distracted Florimon there.

I need some help as to why that wasn't an error. Clearly hit his glove. :P

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 03:52 PM
JHFC, Floor-ee-MOAN flashing his "tools" yet again. Yeah...not impressed so far, at all. Not a tough play. On a positive note, Gardy assures us confidence is not an issue for Hicksie.

GCTF
04-08-2013, 03:52 PM
Was anybody else cringing just a little when Florimon took that pop-up?

I had a Castro flashback.

snepp
04-08-2013, 03:55 PM
I had a Castro flashback.

Somewhere Shores convulses violently.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 03:56 PM
Somewhere Shores convulses violently. Yeah, but it most likely had nothing to do with Castro.

SwainZag
04-08-2013, 03:56 PM
3695

:d

gil4
04-08-2013, 04:02 PM
Gardy assures us confidence is not an issue for Hicksie.

Too bad. Confidence can be fixed with a couple of base hits. Inability to make contact it a bit tougher and is frequently incurable.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:02 PM
Kevin Correia, pitching god.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:05 PM
Dickbert: "What you try to stay away from is the 2, 3 grand-slam-type home runs."

Tcrose3636
04-08-2013, 04:06 PM
Kevin Correia, pitching god.

In attempts to quite the nay sayers

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:11 PM
Nice play, More-know-zee.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:14 PM
Yeah, but is that 21 in Dominican years?

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 04:16 PM
Looking at pitch location, KC is really doing a nice job of hitting corners with good command, just needs to get it down a bit for continued success, but well done sir.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:17 PM
Up and in, up and in, changeup down and away for a tailor made DP. Nice pitch.

Tcrose3636
04-08-2013, 04:22 PM
Apparently Gladden is not to confident in Hicks. He just said, "here is where we need a ball bounced in the dirt and go back to the backstop to move up these runners".

SwainZag
04-08-2013, 04:23 PM
It took me a minute to why you were using the generic KC to describe Santana's pitch location......didn't dawn on me you might be talking about Correia.

GCTF
04-08-2013, 04:25 PM
Dickbert: "What you try to stay away from is the 2, 3 grand-slam-type home runs."

Must've been some flight from Baltimore to KC.

GCTF
04-08-2013, 04:25 PM
It took me a minute to why you were using the generic KC to describe Santana's pitch location......didn't dawn on me you might be talking about Correia.

It's too hard to spell Korea.

SwainZag
04-08-2013, 04:26 PM
Did Joe just swing at the first pitch?!:confused:

YourHouseIsMyHouse
04-08-2013, 04:32 PM
Parker needs to explain how Correia is good to TD. I don't quite get it.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 04:33 PM
Did Joe just swing at the first pitch?!:confused:

More evidence that something's wrong this year.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 04:34 PM
Parker needs to explain how Correia is good to TD. I don't quite get it.

Too soon to say that he is good, but, perhaps, Ryan saw something that we didn't?

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:35 PM
Parker needs to explain how Correia is good to TD. I don't quite get it. It's simple...throw a dp grounder every time you have a runner on first. I'm not sure why more pitchers don't do this.

GCTF
04-08-2013, 04:39 PM
How many more days until Doumit's beard consumes his entire face?

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 04:42 PM
Dickbert: "What you try to stay away from is the 2, 3 grand-slam-type home runs."

You disagree?

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 04:46 PM
The announcers for Kansas City can't understand Correia either - "I thought they'd have gotten to this guy by now."

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:47 PM
Well played, ash. Well played.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:48 PM
Dickbert: "...bouncer to Floor-ee-moan...and an on target throw!"

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 04:50 PM
Parmelee seems to have got rid of the jitters.

snepp
04-08-2013, 04:50 PM
Parker needs to explain how Correia is good to TD. I don't quite get it.

That's easy, he's better than his statistics.

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 04:51 PM
and an on target throw!"
Be still, my heart.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 04:52 PM
That's easy, he's better than his statistics.

Careful; them's fighting words around here to some!

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 04:52 PM
What. the.hell.was.that.?

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:53 PM
Always a good idea to start your slide into second 6 inches from the bag.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 04:53 PM
Dickbert: "...bouncer to Floor-ee-moan...and an on target throw!"

Such detail may not be necessary for a TV play-by-play announcer, but probably helps add to the mental picture for a radio broadcast. Perhaps similar detail should be added for other players:


it's a curveball in the dirt in front of home plate...and Hick checks his swing
the third-base coach holds up Morneau...and Doumit hustles back into second safely
Robertson goes into his windup and delivers...in Rochester

snepp
04-08-2013, 04:53 PM
What. the.hell.was.that.?

A.blunder.

GCTF
04-08-2013, 04:54 PM
That's easy, he's better than his statistics.

Nice post, JR.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 04:55 PM
That's easy, he's better than his statistics.

As of this writing (and knock on wood), he no longer is.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 04:57 PM
Hey, I'm not a big fan of his numbers either, but let's not forget that the last four years he has ended up with a 46-43 record, and three of those four years he played on a team with a losing record. He gets the job done even if it's statistically ugly.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 04:58 PM
nice post, twins scout. ftfy.

TheLeviathan
04-08-2013, 05:01 PM
Florimon has been anything but impressive in the field....but is anyone else sorta impressed with his at-bats thus far? I mean, I feel like I must be insane to even suggest it, but he's not just having success - he's earning it through good ABs.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:01 PM
A.blunder. +1. less than 10 posts behind. We comin'...

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:04 PM
Hey, I'm not a big fan of his numbers either, but let's not forget that the last four years he has ended up with a 46-43 record, and three of those four years he played on a team with a losing record. He gets the job done even if it's statistically ugly.

Wins are a team stat. See 2012 Cliff Lee, and 2012 Lance Lynn.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:06 PM
Who had "7 innings, 0 runs" in the KC pool today?

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 05:07 PM
Wins are a team stat. See 2012 Cliff Lee, and 2012 Lance Lynn.

Yes, but he wouldn't be getting even those kinds of numbers if he wasn't doing something right on the mound. Bad pitchers don't win more games than they lose - even if it is a team stat. Not on a consistent basis. Besides, isn't the point of the game to win? If we win the game, does anybody really care about his numbers?

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 05:09 PM
Error?

TwinVike61
04-08-2013, 05:09 PM
I thought (and hoped) Correia would be better than most were predicting but I never imagined "Correia" and "pitcher's duel" would be in the same sentence.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:10 PM
Florimon has been anything but impressive in the field....but is anyone else sorta impressed with his at-bats thus far? I mean, I feel like I must be insane to even suggest it, but he's not just having success - he's earning it through good ABs.

He worked hard for that walk. I've seen him in person only one game, and he looked helpless when swinging against Milone of the As. Milone's a good pitcher, but the league has a lot of them. I'd be interested to know how Florimon has looked when getting his hits, but my impression from the online records is he may have stuck his bat out there and got a few flares to land.

GCTF
04-08-2013, 05:11 PM
Who had "7 innings, 0 runs" in the KC pool today?

I had 0 innings, 7 runs. Close enough?

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:12 PM
Wins are a team stat. See 2012 Cliff Lee, and 2012 Lance Lynn.

You won't win with a roster full of team players, but start with a good core and then add the team players and you end up with a roster like the 2012 Giants for instance.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:12 PM
Yes, but he wouldn't be getting even those kinds of numbers if he wasn't doing something right on the mound. Bad pitchers don't win more games than they lose - even if it is a team stat. Not on a consistent basis. Besides, isn't the point of the game to win? If we win the game, does anybody really care about his numbers?

1) Perhaps bad pitchers don't, but replacement level one's can, and do.
2) Of course we care most about the win, but the problem with that is past w/l record is not predictive of future w/l record. It is a stat of circumstance.

mikeee
04-08-2013, 05:12 PM
Who had "7 innings, 0 runs" in the KC pool today?

All while pitching to contact. :p

Alex
04-08-2013, 05:14 PM
Yes, but he wouldn't be getting even those kinds of numbers if he wasn't doing something right on the mound. Bad pitchers don't win more games than they lose - even if it is a team stat. Not on a consistent basis. Besides, isn't the point of the game to win? If we win the game, does anybody really care about his numbers?


Jeff Gray?

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:15 PM
I thought (and hoped) Correia would be better than most were predicting but I never imagined "Correia" and "pitcher's duel" would be in the same sentence.

If Gardy had brought in Robertson to relieve Correia the previous game, with the same disastrous results as the other day, Kevin might have felt honor-bound to challenge Tyler on the dueling grounds outside of town.

TheLeviathan
04-08-2013, 05:15 PM
but my impression from the online records is he may have stuck his bat out there and got a few flares to land.

Yeah, he's not hitting much hard, but he's working counts and drawing a pretty healthy share of walks. It's just been a bit surprising to see a competent aspect to his offensive game I didn't expect to see.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:16 PM
Wins are a team stat. See 2012 Cliff Lee, and 2012 Lance Lynn. See 1972 Steve Carlton while you're at it.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 05:16 PM
On a positive note, Gardy assures us confidence is not an issue for Hicksie.

When you're out of your depth, being self-confident to the point of delusion is an asset.

For Gardenhire, obviously.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 05:18 PM
If Gardy had brought in Robertson to relieve Correia the previous game, with the same disastrous results as the other day, Kevin might have felt honor-bound to challenge Tyler on the dueling grounds outside of town.

I don't have any idea what this means, but like it anyway.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:19 PM
See 1972 Steve Carlton while you're at it.

For reasons of team, and not individual, success I hope this turns out to be a poor comp. :)

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:20 PM
I don't have any idea what this means, but like it anyway.

Other than "Pitchers' Duel" it has no meaning. :)

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 05:20 PM
Oh, boy. Who's the freshest in the pen? :confused:

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 05:21 PM
Correia has to try and play with Gordon a little here.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 05:21 PM
What's that ticking sound? Could it be the egg timer for Faust Correia's
deal with the devil?

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:22 PM
See 1972 Steve Carlton while you're at it.

Or see 1987 Nolan Ryan. As a 40 year old he was easily the best pitcher in baseball, but finished just 5th in Cy Young voting because his W/L was 8-16. What a terrible, terrible pitcher, to lose twice as many as he won!

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:22 PM
I have a feeling the Gordon AB is going to generate a Perkins discussion.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 05:22 PM
That wasn't playing with him... Waste a couple. Jeez

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 05:23 PM
Got to make a better pitch than that - middle up, with 0-1 count and base open.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 05:24 PM
For reasons of team, and not individual, success I hope this turns out to be a poor comp. :)

Nooooo, don't explain it, that would ruin the... ehh, can there be fog at the duel? Please say yes.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 05:25 PM
Time for Burton... Correia pitched well... Unfortunate how the 8th turned out.

TwinVike61
04-08-2013, 05:25 PM
Why do we have relief pitchers if you don't use them in the 8th inning?

Ultima Ratio
04-08-2013, 05:25 PM
I think it's fair criticism that KC be pulled earlier. Why Burton is not in with it tied in the 8th is.... different.

B Richard
04-08-2013, 05:25 PM
Who didn't see that coming...

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:26 PM
The Carlton/Ryan comparisons may have been premature. Fire Ryan (ours).

TheLeviathan
04-08-2013, 05:27 PM
I'm surprised they pitched that aggressively to a hitter like Gordon. Especially when your stuff is only marginally better than your average AA pitcher. Give him the ol' Unintentional Intentional Walk and get Burton in to face Escobar.

Shane Wahl
04-08-2013, 05:27 PM
Am I just an idiot or merely wondering why Correia came out for the 8th? Even Fien would have been a better option.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 05:27 PM
A shut out thru 7 innings... No problems and under 90 pitches... I let Correia go in the 8th.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 05:29 PM
A shut out thru 7 innings... No problems and under 90 pitches... I let Correia go in the 8th.

I have no problem with that either, but once the tying run got in scoring position, it was time to make the change.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:30 PM
Or see 1987 Nolan Ryan. As a 40 year old he was easily the best pitcher in baseball, but finished just 5th in Cy Young voting because his W/L was 8-16. What a terrible, terrible pitcher, to lose twice as many as he won! From -, Ryan had a winning record in 16 of 22 seasons. If wins were completely independent of the starting pitcher, shouldn't he be more like .500 in winning seasons? Shouldn't most of the pitchers in the hall of fame have as many losing seasons as winning seasons? "Wins are a team stat" is just another stathead meme with a grain of truth at the center, but like most such memes, don't hold up under scrutiny. How the starting pitcher performs is perhaps the single most important factor in who wins a MLB game. Pitch well, and over time you'll win more than you lose.

B Richard
04-08-2013, 05:30 PM
A shut out thru 7 innings... No problems and under 90 pitches... I let Correia go in the 8th.

Yeah but you still have to remember it's Kevin Correia out there... you have a bullpen full of guys with better pitches. I pat KC on the back for giving me 7 shutout innings and let the bullpen do its job

TwinVike61
04-08-2013, 05:31 PM
A shut out thru 7 innings... No problems and under 90 pitches... I let Correia go in the 8th.

But after the Cain double (the first one he gave up all game) he should have come out.

mikecgrimes
04-08-2013, 05:31 PM
Hate when they play the infield in in non desperation situations, Turning every batter in baseball into a .400 hitter is never a good option unless it's the only option. If you get the out and they tie it big deal nobody on 2 out have faith in the offense. Instead a big inning, let the other team make those kind of mistakes we can't afford it.

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 05:31 PM
So how many of us are thinking back to that first inning and Doumit's baserunning mistake?

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 05:32 PM
I have no problem with that either, but once the tying run got in scoring position, it was time to make the change.

I think the correct criticism was not having Burton warming up sooner. Burton wasn't warm yet when Cain doubled.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:32 PM
A wild pitch and a single courtesy of Burton quells my impulse to second guess.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:34 PM
So how many of us are thinking back to that first inning and Doumit's baserunning mistake?

If there was a crooked number up there for the Twins then it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But as things are, yeah.

B Richard
04-08-2013, 05:34 PM
Great job by Florimon to block the bag

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:35 PM
Am I just an idiot or merely wondering why Correia came out for the 8th? Even Fien would have been a better option.

If you are going to yank a guy, between innings, that has a shutout going and is under 90 pitches, then he shouldn't even be on the roster. (Which is a legit thread of its own.)

Halsey Hall
04-08-2013, 05:35 PM
What? Mauer gunned someone down...........

YourHouseIsMyHouse
04-08-2013, 05:35 PM
Gardy blew this. There is no way you let Correia have a chance to be in line for a loss after pitching like that. He should have been pulled immediately after that double. We have a pretty good bullpen, so not using it was short-sighted too. Twins could have scored more runs of course, but certainly a huge mistake by our manager. Maybe it didn't matter with how Burton did, yet it was costly nonetheless.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 05:36 PM
A shut out thru 7 innings... No problems and under 90 pitches... I let Correia go in the 8th.

And yet there was the ticking sound. I heard it. From 3 states away.

The hook is one of the hardest calls to make, and one of the easiest to rip. Sending Correia out was just a little bit more inevitable than his reunion with math.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:37 PM
I agree that Gardy can and should be criticized for not having the bullpen ready when the 8th inning started. I can understand sending Corriea out for the 8th, I can't understand not having at least one reliever ready to go, probably one each LH and RH.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:38 PM
From -, Ryan had a winning record in 16 of 22 seasons. If wins were completely independent of the starting pitcher, shouldn't he be more like .500 in winning seasons? Shouldn't most of the pitchers in the hall of fame have as many losing seasons as winning seasons? "Wins are a team stat" is just another stathead meme with a grain of truth at the center, but like most such memes, don't hold up under scrutiny. How the starting pitcher performs is perhaps the single most important factor in who wins a MLB game. Pitch well, and over time you'll win more than you lose.

I never said wins were "completely independent" of the pitcher.
If its literally your sole metric for arguing how good or bad a pitcher is (which is how the guy I originally responded to was using it), it is not going to be a very accurate representation.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 05:40 PM
Guys we are going to be fine... I have Crow in my fantasy lineup... We are coming back for sure.

Halsey Hall
04-08-2013, 05:41 PM
Fien in line for the win. Let's eat som Crow.

mikeee
04-08-2013, 05:41 PM
Too bad Mike McDougal wasn't still the Royal's closer.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:42 PM
I never said wins were "completely independent" of the pitcher.
If its literally your sole metric for arguing how good or bad a pitcher is (which is how the guy I originally responded to was using it), it is not going to be a very accurate representation. Your quote: "wins are a team stat." If "team stat" does not equal "completely independent" then I misunderstood you. I'm also not sure the original poster said it was literally the sole metric for judging a pitcher, but whatever.

B Richard
04-08-2013, 05:43 PM
Correia may have pitched well up until the 8th inning, but that doesn't change the fact that he is Kevin Correia. He threw seven shutout innings- great for him. Still, I want my guys with the best stuff out there on the mound in the late innings of a one-run game rather than a guy who is enormously mediocre at best.

Halsey Hall
04-08-2013, 05:43 PM
Kaplouffe

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 05:45 PM
Guys we are going to be fine... I have Crow in my fantasy lineup... We are coming back for sure.

I have the other guy Rotowire says to hold in case Holland spontaneously combusts. Hope that doesn't make it a wash.

Hey, at least nobody has jinxed them by uttering the words "Bruce Ch..." Whoa. That was close.

Nice walk by Parm.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:45 PM
Your quote: "wins are a team stat." If "team stat" does not equal "completely independent" then I misunderstood you. I'm also not sure the original poster said it was literally the sole metric for judging a pitcher, but whatever.

I'm not sure I can think of a single team stat that would be "completely independent" of the players who are on the field during that game.

His W/L total was the ONLY metric the op used in his post.

mikeee
04-08-2013, 05:45 PM
psst. Gardy... Don't send Parmalee again! :p

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 05:46 PM
Am I just an idiot or merely wondering why Correia came out for the 8th? Even Fien would have been a better option.

If a guy has thrown seven shutout innings and is well under 100 pitches, you don't pull him out of the game. You just don't do it. He has shown the ability to dominate that lineup on that day, something even the best reliever might not be able to do should you replace the starter.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 05:47 PM
Correia may have pitched well up until the 8th inning, but that doesn't change the fact that he is Kevin Correia. He threw seven shutout innings- great for him. Still, I want my guys with the best stuff out there on the mound in the late innings of a one-run game rather than a guy who is enormously mediocre at best.

Pitched well?

Correction... He pitched Great!!!

It was 5 hit shut out... WHIP under 1.00

After an off season of bashing... He earned some love.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:48 PM
Were Ramirez and/or Carroll unavailable to pinch hit today?

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:50 PM
Were Ramirez and/or Carroll unavailable to pinch hit today? When? For who?

IdahoPilgrim
04-08-2013, 05:51 PM
I never said wins were "completely independent" of the pitcher.
If its literally your sole metric for arguing how good or bad a pitcher is (which is how the guy I originally respondedto was using it), it is not going to be a very accurate representation.


No, I wasn't. That's a mischaracterization of my point and my position, based on one post and that ignores the rest of argument laid out earlier. My whole point was about perhaps we can't use just statistical analysis to decide what is effective pitching and what isn't.


Why am I wasting my breath on this?

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:53 PM
I can't understand not having at least one reliever ready to go, probably one each LH and RH.

+1. This. Ding. Ding. Freaking. Ding. +2.

B Richard
04-08-2013, 05:54 PM
Pitched well?

Correction... He pitched Great!!!

It was 5 hit shut out... WHIP under 1.00

After an off season of bashing... He earned some love.

Absolutely. I'm ecstatic to see him pitch like his has thus far. I just don't think that in the 8th inning of a one run game you can hand the ball to Correia going into the heart of the lineup. I'd rather cash out while I'm still winning and trust that my bullpen, who the Royals haven't seen 3x at the plate, can get the job done.

Maybe my point would have been better made if the bullpen was better, but there is certainly a discussion to be had. Either way, I'm still happy to see Correia exceed expectations and I still hate losing.

Brock Beauchamp
04-08-2013, 05:54 PM
No, I wasn't. That's a mischaracterization of my point and my position. My whole point was about perhaps we can't use just statistical analysis to decide what is effective pitching and what isn't.

Why am I wasting my breath on this?

Which might be the case except that statistically, it's been pretty much determined that there is no such as thing as "pitching to the scoreboard", as many have tried to claim in an attempt to maintain the relevancy of the win statistic.

Any statistic that relies so heavily on players that don't receive any credit for the statistic is not a good statistic to use, particularly when there are dozens of other metrics that more closely correlate to performance.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:55 PM
When? For who?

For the career .598 OPS'er that ended the game.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 05:56 PM
Correia has to try and play with Gordon a little here.

Maybe Joe thought it would be bad baseball for a batter to swing with fewer than two strikes in this situation.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:56 PM
No, I wasn't. That's a mischaracterization of my point and my position, based on one post and that ignores the rest of argument laid out earlier. My whole point was about perhaps we can't use just statistical analysis to decide what is effective pitching and what isn't.


Why am I wasting my breath on this?

So your counter argument is to use a stat that the pitcher has even less control over?
I'm sorry if I don't understand your argument.

snepp
04-08-2013, 05:57 PM
less than 10 posts behind. We comin'...

Don't you have some whipper-snappers to go growl at?

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 05:57 PM
Do you realize Kevin Slowey has a career 39-30 record?

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 05:59 PM
He has shown the ability to dominate that lineup on that day, something even the best reliever might not be able to do should you replace the starter.

Correia + "dominate" = 404 not found error.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 05:59 PM
For the career .598 OPS'er that ended the game. I probably save Ramirez for Florimon, but I can understand either option.

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:00 PM
Jeff Gray?

Wasn't he one of those guys that was better than his numbers, too?

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:01 PM
Great job by Florimon to block the bag

Except he was safe anyway.

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:02 PM
What? Mauer gunned someone down...........

Runner was clearly safe on replay

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:02 PM
155 games to go... Let's see them do that in Hockey

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 06:04 PM
I probably save Ramirez for Florimon, but I can understand either option.

That's fine.
Hit Carroll for Dozier and Ramirez for Florimon.

B Richard
04-08-2013, 06:04 PM
Except he was safe anyway.

*Called out. Without that effort the call probably would have been safe, for that I praise him. When was the last time you were cleated?

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:04 PM
And yet there was the ticking sound. I heard it. From 3 states away.

The hook is one of the hardest calls to make, and one of the easiest to rip. Sending Correia out was just a little bit more inevitable than his reunion with math.

His 8th inning numbers were only rumored to be better than the stats indicate, given that he goes this far in a game about as often as the moon is blue.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:05 PM
Absolutely. I'm ecstatic to see him pitch like his has thus far. I just don't think that in the 8th inning of a one run game you can hand the ball to Correia going into the heart of the lineup. I'd rather cash out while I'm still winning and trust that my bullpen, who the Royals haven't seen 3x at the plate, can get the job done.

Maybe my point would have been better made if the bullpen was better, but there is certainly a discussion to be had. Either way, I'm still happy to see Correia exceed expectations and I still hate losing.

Me to... A win would have felt good.


In my opinion the mistake was not having Burton warming earlier... Honestly... I would have had Duensing warming up for Getz and Gordon. Burton for Escobar and Butler.


But... I would have given Correia every chance to hold that shut out while under 100 pitches.


Bottom line... It was a pitcher duel from two guys that no expected to duel.


Hats off to Correia. He gave us every chance to win that game. I'm smiling.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:05 PM
Don't you have some whipper-snappers to go growl at?

Your post is discriminatory toward the chronologically endowed and persons overly protective of the fruit of the crabapple tree in their back yard. Brace yourself for the inevitable class action.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 06:07 PM
For the career .598 OPS'er that ended the game.

Carroll for Dozier for the OBP, and then Ramirez for Florimon, with Escobar to pinch run if the inning calls for it with the top of the lineup on deck, does have some appeal. Weighing against is a Tyler Roberton-like desire to "see what we've got" and hopefully build on some success if it occurs. Down 3-1 in the ninth, probably needing Hicks to come through and with very little chance Gardy pinch hits with Mastro in that situation, means the chances of winning are pretty low whichever way you roll those dice.

/ oops: Mastro already went in for the Hammer.

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:09 PM
If a guy has thrown seven shutout innings and is well under 100 pitches, you don't pull him out of the game. You just don't do it. He has shown the ability to dominate that lineup on that day, something even the best reliever might not be able to do should you replace the starter.

Agreed, the way he was going I would have left him in too, but the braintrust in the dugout was having trouble in deciding how many 8th inning fat Correia meatballs indicated that it was finally time for a change.

snepp
04-08-2013, 06:09 PM
Your post is discriminatory toward the chronologically endowed and persons overly protective of the fruit of the crabapple tree in their back yard. Brace yourself for the inevitable class action.

Get off my l̶a̶w̶n̶ website.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:10 PM
*Called out. Without that effort the call probably would have been safe, for that I praise him. When was the last time you were cleated?

Myself... Just yesterday... Walking in the supermarket while looking for Bowtie Pasta. There was one box left and this lady came out of nowhere slid into me while grabbing the last box.

She was wearing spikes and eye black.

USAFChief
04-08-2013, 06:10 PM
Get off my l̶a̶w̶n̶ website. That's it. I'm reporting you to a mod.

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:11 PM
When? For who?

whom, that's who.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:14 PM
whom, that's who.

'And that's when the fistfight started, officer.'

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:15 PM
Carroll for Dozier for the OBP, and then Ramirez for Florimon, with Escobar to pinch run if the inning calls for it with the top of the lineup on deck, does have some appeal. Weighing against is a Tyler Roberton-like desire to "see what we've got" and hopefully build on some success if it occurs. Down 3-1 in the ninth, probably needing Hicks to come through and with very little chance Gardy pinch hits with Mastro in that situation, means the chances of winning are pretty low whichever way you roll those dice.

i think it's possible that you are substitution inclined and its just part of your personal character.

You probably use margarine on occasion for the hell of it.

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:15 PM
*Called out. Without that effort the call probably would have been safe, for that I praise him. When was the last time you were cleated?

I must have missed it, when did the sympathy call come into baseball, even homer Dick admitted as much that he was clearly safe.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:15 PM
She was wearing spikes and eye black.

InterWeb address, please...

B Richard
04-08-2013, 06:16 PM
Myself... Just yesterday... Walking in the supermarket while looking for Bowtie Pasta. There was one box left and this lady came out of nowhere slid into me while grabbing the last box.

She was wearing spikes and eye black.

:roll::roll::roll:

B Richard
04-08-2013, 06:17 PM
I must have missed it, when did the sympathy call come into baseball, even homer Dick admitted as much that he was clearly safe.

I'm laughing, I really am

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:25 PM
If I were a highly-ranked ultimate fighting guy and Ryan Doumit stepped into cage looking like he did in the postgame interview, I would one and two myself and sob like a little girl to get let out.

Direct, unflinching acceptance of his share of blame and felt bad for Correia. But you could tell that he would rather be working on his platoon disadvantage against left-handed Gatorade coolers.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 06:27 PM
i think it's possible that you are substitution inclined and its just part of your personal character.

You probably use margarine on occasion for the hell of it.

It's Chekov's Law, I think - not the Star Trek guy but the smart one. "A loaded gun on stage in the first act of a play should be fired in a later act; otherwise, the gun should not be shown in the first place." You've got these players in the dugout and the bullpen; if you lose without putting them all into the game then you should have made them pay for a ticket to watch the game. :)

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:29 PM
If I were a highly-ranked ultimate fighting guy and Ryan Doumit stepped into cage looking like he did in the postgame interview, I would one and two myself and sob like a little girl to get let out.

Direct, unflinching acceptance of his share of blame and felt bad for Correia. But you could tell that he would rather be working on his platoon disadvantage against left-handed Gatorade coolers.

Doumit looks like he would hurt people in a bar fight. His neck and Jaw have at least killed some of his turtlenecks.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:31 PM
It's Chekov's Law, I think - not the Star Trek guy but the smart one.

Walter Koenig and Anton Yelchin dislike this.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 06:33 PM
Walter Koenig and Anton Yelchin dislike this.

I won't imply they aren't smart enough to get the joke, but they surely are not smart enough to be reading this august Forum.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:34 PM
Doumit looks like he would hurt people in a bar fight. His neck and Jaw have at least killed some of his turtlenecks.

Without question. Also, he has that disturbingly large iris-to-white eye area ratio that Hollywood uses to let the audience instinctively know that someone has either become possessed or a zombie.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:35 PM
It's Chekov's Law, I think - not the Star Trek guy but the smart one. "A loaded gun on stage in the first act of a play should be fired in a later act; otherwise, the gun should not be shown in the first place." You've got these players in the dugout and the bullpen; if you lose without putting them all into the game then you should have made them pay for a ticket to watch the game. :)

lol... That's an interesting explanation but I'm not buying it.

I think it's you and your overwhelming natural inclination for substitution, match ups or change.

You probably have a couple different brands of toilet paper... Just for substitution based on what you ate yesterday. :p

Seriously... I think Gardy was thinking Dozier provides a better chance of game tying dinger than Carroll and Rameriz was the Florimon sub.

The Dozier Double play ruined all the fine manager ideas.

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:36 PM
Without question. Also, he has that disturbingly large iris-to-white eye area ratio that Hollywood uses to let the audience instinctively know that someone has either become possessed or a zombie.

lol My sons call him Triple D (Devil-Doll-Doumit)

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:40 PM
I won't imply they aren't smart enough to get the joke, but they surely are not smart enough to be reading this august Forum.

Hope you're right. And saints preserve you if you're wrong and a southpaw. Even at 76, Koenig is still devastating vs. LHP (left-handed pundits). Fangraphs had nothing on the kid from the movie, so you're on your own there. Live long and prosper.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:41 PM
lol My sons call him Triple D (Devil-Doll-Doumit)

I'm serious about this... If I was sitting at a bar... Raising a mug to drink. If Doumit at that moment walked up and said "PUT THAT DOWN".

I would drop it immediately... The mug would hit the floor and I'd be apologizing for the beer that landed on his shoes.

Mr. Brooks
04-08-2013, 06:41 PM
lol... That's an interesting explanation but I'm not buying it.

I think it's you and your overwhelming natural inclination for substitution, match ups or change.

You probably have a couple different brands of toilet paper... Just for substitution based on what you ate yesterday. :p

Seriously... I think Gardy was thinking Dozier provides a better chance of game tying dinger than Carroll and Rameriz was the Florimon sub.

The Dozier Double play ruined all the fine manager ideas.

Considering that Dozier has nearly twice as many GIDP's in his career than he does HR's, I am not exaggerating when I say that Gardy should literally be fired on the spot if that was his logic. (I highly doubt that could have been his logic, ergo i'm not calling for him to be fired.)

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 06:42 PM
Seriously... I think Gardy was thinking Dozier provides a better chance of game tying dinger than Carroll and Rameriz was the Florimon sub.

The Dozier Double play ruined all the fine manager ideas.

And equally seriously, my suggestion to insert Carroll is guided by "go for the tie at home, but for the win when on the road". Too soon for the power hitter, but Carroll has the much better track record at getting that second runner on board, by hook or by crook. And he can then take over Dozier's fielding position if the bottom of the ninth comes to reality. I really like the current construction of the bench, given the choices coming out of Spring Training.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:45 PM
Considering that Dozier has nearly twice as many GIDP's in his career than he does HR's, I am not exaggerating when I say that Gardy should literally be fired on the spot if that was his logic. (I highly doubt that could have been his logic, ergo i'm not calling for him to be fired.)

Honestly... I'd fire Gardy on the spot for thinking about a double play... when you need a game tying two run shot in the ninth.

He'd be a way too negative manager for my tastes... Not too mention a bad karma voodoo type presence when you need the baseball gods.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 06:45 PM
lol My sons call him Triple D (Devil-Doll-Doumit)

Thank God. I was starting to think it was just me. And after reading that, I can't imagine seeing him or even reading his name without thinking "D cubed". Tell them it's worthy of a copyright.

jokin
04-08-2013, 06:47 PM
Thank God. I was starting to think it was just me. And after reading that, I can't imagine seeing him or even reading his name without thinking "D cubed". Tell them it's worthy of a copyright.

Since I know they all read this, consider it done.

Riverbrian
04-08-2013, 06:49 PM
And equally seriously, my suggestion to insert Carroll is guided by "go for the tie at home, but for the win when on the road". Too soon for the power hitter, but Carroll has the much better track record at getting that second runner on board, by hook or by crook. And he can then take over Dozier's fielding position if the bottom of the ninth comes to reality. I really like the current construction of the bench, given the choices coming out of Spring Training.

Yeah... Who knows... It was gonna take stringing a few together regardless. In the end... We had a good chance... Santana just punched out too many of our guys with that low slider.

Tomorrow is game 8.

h2oface
04-08-2013, 06:51 PM
Without question. Also, he has that disturbingly large iris-to-white eye area ratio that Hollywood uses to let the audience instinctively know that someone has either become possessed or a zombie.

Can you imagine a stare down between Doumit and Hendriks' close together eyes?

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 07:10 PM
I'm serious about this... If I was sitting at a bar... Raising a mug to drink. If Doumit at that moment walked up and said "PUT THAT DOWN".

I would drop it immediately... The mug would hit the floor and I'd be apologizing for the beer that landed on his shoes.

Ryan Doumit's eyes have a grizzly bear rug. The bear isn't dead, he's just afraid to move.

ashburyjohn
04-08-2013, 07:17 PM
Without question. Also, he has that disturbingly large iris-to-white eye area ratio that Hollywood uses to let the audience instinctively know that someone has either become possessed or a zombie.

Extraterrestrials. Do not forget extraterrestrials.

LaBombo
04-08-2013, 08:00 PM
Extraterrestrials. Do not forget extraterrestrials.

Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

Linus
04-08-2013, 08:43 PM
This one is on Gardy....
Disclosure: I am usually supportive of Gardy and I didn't see the game today, just listened on the radio......but: if you get 7 innings out of Correia he should be on a one batter at a time leash given his track record and that it is only his second start. Of course, Gardy ignores that they started squaring him up and only hooks him after it is way too late. Horrible decision. Gardy blew it and it probably cost them the game.

glunn
04-08-2013, 11:26 PM
This one is on Gardy....
Disclosure: I am usually supportive of Gardy and I didn't see the game today, just listened on the radio......but: if you get 7 innings out of Correia he should be on a one batter at a time leash given his track record and that it is only his second start. Of course, Gardy ignores that they started squaring him up and only hooks him after it is way too late. Horrible decision. Gardy blew it and it probably cost them the game.

I missed the game entirely and wonder what the people who watched the game have to say about this.

nicksaviking
04-09-2013, 12:04 PM
I agree this one is on Gardy, not because Correia pitched into the 8th but because of the situation that developed in the 8th. If there is a runner on 3rd with less than 2 outs and your team is up by 1, you can't have a guy on the mound who isn't able to strike anyone out. I don't care how well he pitched up to that point, without strikeout ability that runner is most likely going to score.

This is 21st century baseball, the other 29 teams have realized the strikeout is the most efficient way to prevent runs. Isn't that why the team cut ties with Burnett despite him still having an option remaining?

Every time this team seems to make an effort to get away from 1980's baseball, they seem to take another step back toward it.