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TheLeviathan
03-26-2013, 10:20 AM
This board should be ashamed that only now this thread exists. The question is not just how awesome this show is and how hotly you anticipate the return......it's how many times would you throw granny off a bridge to see it now and not wait a minute longer.


At least 15 adorable elderly ladies before I even blink. (All in jest....hope that was obvious!)

But seriously if that would help....

ChiTownTwinsFan
03-26-2013, 10:33 AM
I don't get HBO so I haven't watched it, but can probably catch up with last season's. Read the books?

TheLeviathan
03-26-2013, 10:46 AM
I started with show so now I'm scared to read them so I don't get spoiled. But I will when the series concludes. They are way worth the rental fee!

PseudoSABR
03-26-2013, 12:19 PM
Evidently the books just don't have the same aesthetic style as the show. The show is subtle and sharp. I'd catch up on teh DVDs, it's worth it.

mike wants wins
03-28-2013, 03:48 PM
1. The books are great, but very long after book three. I am about done with book 5 now, and I to re-read wikipedia a couple of times to remember everything that came before....really, really long. That said, they are really well written. Unless you hate violence and sex....

2. the blu rays are great. I do not have HBO, but have the first two seasons on blu ray. Once we watch the last episdoe of ROME (also good), we will re-watch season 1, then watch season 2.

3. Really, the books are intimidating, but good. My biggest worry (re: ASoIF) is that Martin passes before he finishes. Heck, at this rate, I might pass before he finishes.

Brock Beauchamp
03-28-2013, 04:16 PM
I'll be curious to see if the show turns into a hot mess like the books.

Too many characters, too many divergent storylines, too little payoff. Martin's idea of character development is Hydra-esque... Each character (barring 2 exceptions) remains the exact same until he/she is killed, at which point that character is replaced by two other characters. Rinse, repeat.

But I'm enjoying the hell out of the show. It's perfectly cast.

mike wants wins
03-28-2013, 04:35 PM
I do agree, we could lose a third of each book and characters in the books......hydraesque, love that one

glunn
03-28-2013, 10:32 PM
I never have the time/energy to read novels, but I have been loving the HBO series. I especially like the blonde with the dragons.

gunnarthor
04-02-2013, 04:45 PM
I loved the novels and the show. The casting has been nearly pitch perfect. Ygritte is, um, wow.

The show has had to simplify a lot of things - Robb Stark's second army is missing and his wife is inaccurate, Dany's overseas adventures as a few examples - but it gets the tone and atmosphere perfectly. The conversations between Varys and Littlefinger in the first season were great.

Oxtung
04-06-2013, 01:18 AM
I don't think the books are that good tbh. There are other series in the same genre that are much better. The first season on DVD though was great. Perhaps the aesthetics of the visual medium make this a MUCH more interesting story line ;)

mike wants wins
04-06-2013, 11:02 AM
Book three is a great book. The other books have high and low points, and need editing, IMO. Yes, there are many great series.....

BrentMpls
04-07-2013, 01:57 PM
Love both the show and the books.

My disappointment with the show is the apparent lack of budget. The tourney in the first season held for the Hand of the King looked like it was setup in someones backyard and had 30 people there tops. In the book it was a monumental spectacle. The list goes on. Some changes make sense to keep the character (actor) cost down, but other stuff just seems really bizarre. The battle of blackwater was also pretty lackluster compared to the book.

My problem with the books is who knows when the next one will come out... or if it will finish. It doesn't help that Martin himself says stuff like "...hopefully it will have an end"

TheLeviathan
04-07-2013, 05:37 PM
Honestly, I've been impressed they done this much for a pay-cable station. I marvel sometimes that they have enough to do what they've done. This isn't a several hundred million dollar movie production, you have to keep your expectations reasonable.

I think with that in mind what they've done is amazing.

Willihammer
04-11-2013, 09:24 PM
I had to put the show on pause till I finish the book series. After watching the first couple episodes I realized much prefered my own renditions of Cersei and Daenerys to the actresses. At least they seem to have gotten someone good for Tyrion though. I'll pick it back up in a week or two probably as I'm about half through the 5th book at this point. But then again the 6th book is coming out next fall...

5th book is my favorite too - Reek is one of the darkest and most twisted characters I've ever encoutnered.

BrentMpls
04-11-2013, 10:48 PM
But then again the 6th book is coming out next fall...



Where did you see this information?

BrentMpls
04-11-2013, 10:49 PM
Honestly, I've been impressed they done this much for a pay-cable station. I marvel sometimes that they have enough to do what they've done. This isn't a several hundred million dollar movie production, you have to keep your expectations reasonable.

I think with that in mind what they've done is amazing.

Its been pretty subpar, especially in the two instances I mention above.

On top of that, many (all?) of the alterations the show makes in the story aren't creative choices to keep things fresh, rather done for budget reasons.

Willihammer
04-12-2013, 09:00 AM
Where did you see this information?

I was confused. What I meant is that a sample chapter would be released this fall, according to rumors from last year anyway, not the whole book. AFAIK book six is looking at a 2014 release.

mike wants wins
04-12-2013, 09:16 AM
The Dany actress is a compromise, they could not have someone that young (as the books) play that role on screen. That's the reason for that change.

funny, I totally pictured the actress this time when finishing book 5 for Cersei, which admittedly is not the picture I had in my mind before.

Willihammer
04-12-2013, 11:55 AM
funny, I totally pictured the actress this time when finishing book 5 for Cersei, which admittedly is not the picture I had in my mind before.
Yeah its tough to shake an actors' face and voice once you've seen it. The actress who plays Cersei especially, she just does not deliver with nearly as much venom or impact as I'd imagined her. Nothing worse than a weak villain IMHO.

gunnarthor
06-03-2013, 04:57 PM
Digging this back up, but did anyone watch the Red Wedding episode last night? My wife was not happy. Poor dead Robb.

Brock Beauchamp
06-03-2013, 05:18 PM
Yeah its tough to shake an actors' face and voice once you've seen it. The actress who plays Cersei especially, she just does not deliver with nearly as much venom or impact as I'd imagined her. Nothing worse than a weak villain IMHO.

I think Lena Headey is awesome in the role. She has a restrained coldness that I think fits the character nicely.

After all, the character isn't necessarily evil, only self-serving.

TheLeviathan
06-03-2013, 05:23 PM
Yeah, I love how Cersei is portrayed. I think sometimes it's too easy to make a character campy or too over the top, her cold indifference is really well acted.

As for last night, the slow build to that gutting of the moral core of the show was brilliantly done.

PseudoSABR
06-03-2013, 08:30 PM
The Starks seem so gun-ho through the entire affair, that they didn't even consider betrayal; I kept waiting for it, yes, until the point that I no longer thought it would happen. What was surprising was the casual brutality of the Freys.

TheLeviathan
06-03-2013, 08:58 PM
I was more surprised by the casual brutality of Bolton. He's been presented, thus far, as a mostly loyal, ho-hum character. I mean, he let Jaime go secretly and that was a bit alarming, but he's hardly been portrayed as a ruthless turncoat waiting to happen. Frey has always been shown, at least to some degree, as a tentative/undesirable alliance.

I read in a review that the salt and bread thing was highlighted early in the episode because that was an ancient Westeros tradition meant to ensure safety against betrayl. So not only did Bolton and Frey betray them, they basically took a big steaming dump all over some very engrained traditions in doing so. I love the nuance and the brutality of it even more on the second viewing.

Brock Beauchamp
06-03-2013, 09:31 PM
Yep, the books mention the bread and salt thing a few times.

mike wants wins
06-04-2013, 09:03 AM
The interwebs are apparently a mess over the Red Wedding. For me, that is one of the high points of the books. Everything leading up to it is so well written. Maybe I'm nostalgic or something, but I really love this whole section of the books in and around Book 3.

Turd Furgeson
08-31-2013, 01:02 PM
I was more surprised by the casual brutality of Bolton. He's been presented, thus far, as a mostly loyal, ho-hum character. I mean, he let Jaime go secretly and that was a bit alarming, but he's hardly been portrayed as a ruthless turncoat waiting to happen. Frey has always been shown, at least to some degree, as a tentative/undesirable alliance.

I read in a review that the salt and bread thing was highlighted early in the episode because that was an ancient Westeros tradition meant to ensure safety against betrayl. So not only did Bolton and Frey betray them, they basically took a big steaming dump all over some very engrained traditions in doing so. I love the nuance and the brutality of it even more on the second viewing.

I know this thread is a bit old, but when a house takes people under their care and protection in their own house and then to betray that oath with murder is one of the most grave sins you can commit in the Game of Thrones universe. The North does not forget.

TheLeviathan
06-02-2014, 03:49 PM
My god has Season 4 been well done. We're not even at the usual penultimate episode (typically the best) and I've been utterly shaken by a few of the recent episodes.

Really fantastic stuff.

diehardtwinsfan
06-02-2014, 04:50 PM
yeah, I missed last night's episode, but I know it's good when my wife texts me saying it was gruesome...

TheLeviathan
06-02-2014, 04:53 PM
Gruesome is an understatement. And that says nothing of the 55 minutes before that scene that were equally as captivating.

Brock Beauchamp
06-03-2014, 06:50 AM
The Starks seem so gun-ho through the entire affair, that they didn't even consider betrayal; I kept waiting for it, yes, until the point that I no longer thought it would happen.

An old post but I just saw it.

The Starks are idiots. It's one of my bigger problems with the books. The only characters you genuinely like (barring Sansa) continually put themselves in jeopardy and end up dead.

Realistic? Maybe. Enjoyable? Not after 4,500 pages of flogging that horse. It was a great set-up in Game of Thrones but by the fourth book, it starts to wear thin and breaks reader trust.

kydoty
06-08-2014, 09:01 PM
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140124023219/vampirediaries/images/7/71/Ramsay.gif

kydoty
06-09-2014, 12:34 PM
http://i.imgur.com/XPyBAVQ.png

diehardtwinsfan
06-13-2014, 07:57 PM
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140124023219/vampirediaries/images/7/71/Ramsay.gif

Oh my..

PseudoSABR
06-14-2014, 02:33 AM
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140124023219/vampirediaries/images/7/71/Ramsay.gif
Every older (male) cousin ever.

TheLeviathan
06-14-2014, 05:50 AM
An old post but I just saw it.

The Starks are idiots. It's one of my bigger problems with the books. The only characters you genuinely like (barring Sansa) continually put themselves in jeopardy and end up dead.

Realistic? Maybe. Enjoyable? Not after 4,500 pages of flogging that horse. It was a great set-up in Game of Thrones but by the fourth book, it starts to wear thin and breaks reader trust.

7793

To be serious though, most books rely on the foil characters to make these sort of mistakes. It's a bit refreshing to see the heroes have this flaw for a change.

SpiritofVodkaDave
06-16-2014, 07:42 AM
Season was pretty meh overall. They have done a crappy job developing stannis, snow and Dany and her stupid dragons into interesting characters.

TheLeviathan
06-16-2014, 07:54 AM
Season was pretty meh overall. They have done a crappy job developing stannis, snow and Dany and her stupid dragons into interesting characters.

And I thought it was by far the most packed and riveting season yet. To each their own.

Brock Beauchamp
06-16-2014, 08:41 AM
Season was pretty meh overall. They have done a crappy job developing stannis, snow and Dany and her stupid dragons into interesting characters.

I haven't watched the latest season yet but Dani turns into a pretty lame character in the books as well. She's great up to the time she frees the slaves but then turns whiny and boring afterward.

diehardtwinsfan
06-16-2014, 09:47 AM
I haven't watched the latest season yet but Dani turns into a pretty lame character in the books as well. She's great up to the time she frees the slaves but then turns whiny and boring afterward.

Towards the end of the last book, things pick up with her.

That said, it will be interesting to see how they go forward with the next season. Season 4 jumped into both books 4 and 5 while they've been saying that this really wraps up with book 3. I'd imagine they have one good season left before they run out of material (as book 6 and 7 aren't out yet).


Definitely thought this was one of the better seasons yet. Really enjoyed it.

TheLeviathan
06-16-2014, 07:48 PM
Towards the end of the last book, things pick up with her.

That said, it will be interesting to see how they go forward with the next season. Season 4 jumped into both books 4 and 5 while they've been saying that this really wraps up with book 3. I'd imagine they have one good season left before they run out of material (as book 6 and 7 aren't out yet).


Definitely thought this was one of the better seasons yet. Really enjoyed it.

Sounds like there is an excellent chance the show reveals the conclusion before the books do. Especially since, by most accounts, Martins work in this series tails dramatically in quality after Storm of Swords.

gunnarthor
06-17-2014, 09:46 AM
And I thought it was by far the most packed and riveting season yet. To each their own.
Yeah, I agree. Thought it was the best season.

That said, it's already going differently than the books in large and small ways. Sansa's plot in the Aryie looks to be very different than the books, less marauding in the riverlands, Jojon died (and no Coldhands who I thought would become an important book character). Tommenin was aged a bit. A lot more Jamie in King's Landing.

I thought they did about as well as they could with Dany in Mereen. It'll be interesting to see how they go forward with all that political stuff. I thought the Red Viper was perfect and am really looking forward to how they introduce the Dornish characters next year.

diehardtwinsfan
06-17-2014, 10:47 AM
Sounds like there is an excellent chance the show reveals the conclusion before the books do. Especially since, by most accounts, Martins work in this series tails dramatically in quality after Storm of Swords.


Book 4 in particular was pretty bad. I thought book 5 kind of picked things up. Looking forward to Winds of Winter... whenever it comes out...

Martin is acting as a consultant on the HBO series, so I have to think he's steering it a bit. In the same token though, they are starting to make some changes that didn't happen in the books. I'm somewhat curious what they do with them.

PseudoSABR
06-17-2014, 01:45 PM
Here's some context (http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospectus/ask-the-maester-game-of-thrones-season-4-finale/) for those who haven't read the books from Grantland.

TheLeviathan
06-17-2014, 03:05 PM
Book 4 in particular was pretty bad. I thought book 5 kind of picked things up. Looking forward to Winds of Winter... whenever it comes out...

Martin is acting as a consultant on the HBO series, so I have to think he's steering it a bit. In the same token though, they are starting to make some changes that didn't happen in the books. I'm somewhat curious what they do with them.

My understanding is that given his age and relative health, he's already told the producers the end-game of the series. So any omissions/extras might point to what is ultimately important.

SD Buhr
06-19-2014, 03:27 PM
An old post but I just saw it.

The Starks are idiots. It's one of my bigger problems with the books. The only characters you genuinely like (barring Sansa) continually put themselves in jeopardy and end up dead.

Realistic? Maybe. Enjoyable? Not after 4,500 pages of flogging that horse. It was a great set-up in Game of Thrones but by the fourth book, it starts to wear thin and breaks reader trust.

Just saw this thread for the first time. Silly me, thinking TD was just for baseball.

Just thought I'd add that I heard or read somewhere that Martin was quoted as saying something to the effect of, "Every time I get asked when the next book is coming out, a Stark dies."

I guess he gets asked that a lot.

mike wants wins
06-24-2014, 10:33 AM
no HBO for me, so I haven't seen season 4 yet.......but I agree, book 4 was mediocre.

REALLY needs an editor to stand up to him. And, yes, the tv people know the outline.

TheLeviathan
06-24-2014, 11:48 AM
no HBO for me, so I haven't seen season 4 yet.......but I agree, book 4 was mediocre.

REALLY needs an editor to stand up to him. And, yes, the tv people know the outline.

It's the one thing I really hate about people glorifying the books so far above the show. The show is capturing the best of the book series. It's capturing the emotional essence of it. Is it including every nook and cranny? No. It's also not needlessly exploring every dead-end because it seems cool. (How I feel like Martin writes sometimes)

He's created a truly epic fantasy realm and story, but god does he need someone to slap him upside the head and say "focus!" from time to time.

Brock Beauchamp
06-24-2014, 12:44 PM
It's capturing the emotional essence of it. Is it including every nook and cranny? No. It's also not needlessly exploring every dead-end because it seems cool. (How I feel like Martin writes pretty much all the time)

FIFY.

The guy needs an editor like nobody's business. He's big into Literature as Author Masturbation. The world is amazing but he drifts off into pointless crap so often that the reader continually loses focus.

mike wants wins
06-24-2014, 02:49 PM
Told my wife the show was better, and she should watch the show. .... she asked why I kept reading, and I had no good answer, other than I like the books and story, if I don't always love the writing.

TheLeviathan
06-24-2014, 06:13 PM
Told my wife the show was better, and she should watch the show. .... she asked why I kept reading, and I had no good answer, other than I like the books and story, if I don't always love the writing.

The books are very good and very worth reading. But the legions of internet trolls out there saying the books are vastly better are missing the forest for the trees. The show gets the forest. Martin is way too interested in meaningless trees.

gunnarthor
06-24-2014, 07:30 PM
The books are very good and very worth reading. But the legions of internet trolls out there saying the books are vastly better are missing the forest for the trees. The show gets the forest. Martin is way too interested in meaningless trees.

I disagree. The show is great for doing what it has with such large source material but all that texture Martin has added to the books really rewards readers. There's enough crappy fantasy literature out there that's been dumbed down into straight fantasy quests.

TheLeviathan
06-24-2014, 08:07 PM
I disagree. The show is great for doing what it has with such large source material but all that texture Martin has added to the books really rewards readers. There's enough crappy fantasy literature out there that's been dumbed down into straight fantasy quests.

There is a wide gap between a straight ahead quest and Martin's scattergun approach. I've read the first three books, they're great and they do provide a lot of necessary and valuable context. I've also literally felt like I've read chapters that were utterly worthless.

Martin himself has admitted he started with a three book idea but gets "fascinated" with characters along the way and stops to admire them. Characters that have a minuscule chance of doing anything more than eating pages. It also has become obvious (and people tell me it becomes MUCH worse come book 4) that more and more time is spent on these cute deadends at the expense of the end-game.

Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.

Brock Beauchamp
06-25-2014, 08:17 AM
Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.

Basically, imagine The Lord of the Rings. Now, add The Silmarillion to the LOTR novel.

That's the A Song of Ice and Fire books.

It doesn't mean they're bad books but it does mean that they wander aimlessly for what seems like an eternity. I *love* Martin's world-building but really, a huge portion of it is completely unnecessary to the story at hand.

Case in point: the prologue to A Game of Thrones introduced the White Walkers. 4,500 pages later (!), we still know virtually nothing about them.

Wait, wut?

In the meantime, we've been introduced to literally 100 characters who ultimately will not matter in the final 50 pages of the series. Martin simply *cannot* tie these pieces together in a meaningful manner. The series has gone completely kudzu.

mike wants wins
06-25-2014, 08:26 AM
Oh, he can tie them together some day.....but there are an awful lot of side stories that just don't matter to the plot as a whole. There are already more than a couple dozen main characters, introducing some minor noble from the South that thinks he's some hot stuff, bah. Unneeded.*

*that wasn't too much of a spolier....

**and the Bran parts of the books, SO DAMN BORING. At least on the show it is tolerable.

***speaking of which, don't they need to film faster? some of these kids will have kids of their own by the time the show is done filming.....

Brock Beauchamp
06-25-2014, 10:34 AM
Oh, he can tie them together some day.....but there are an awful lot of side stories that just don't matter to the plot as a whole.

That's kind of my point. There's no way Martin can tie in every side story to the main arc or resolve that side story in a meaningful fashion. He has too many arcs going to bring it all together or finish the stories he has started.

In the end, I don't see A Song of Fire and Ice ending without at least half a dozen Lost-style "I hope you forgot about that story because, uh, it's going nowhere and really has nothing to do with the story I'm telling in the final season/book".

TheLeviathan
06-25-2014, 11:45 AM
Basically, imagine The Lord of the Rings. Now, add The Silmarillion to the LOTR novel.

That's the A Song of Ice and Fire books.

That's a good analogy. Still yet there are other times it feels like in Martin's hands Frodo and Sam might have ended up in Narnia for a book or two.

Brock Beauchamp
06-25-2014, 12:18 PM
That's a good analogy. Still yet there are other times it feels like in Martin's hands Frodo and Sam might have ended up in Narnia for a book or two.

Hah. Too true.

mike wants wins
06-25-2014, 12:45 PM
Imagine if they had given the Silmarillion to Martin, instead of Kay....btw, Guy Gavriel Kay's books are really, really good. Don't start with the three most recent, though.

gunnarthor
06-25-2014, 04:10 PM
There is a wide gap between a straight ahead quest and Martin's scattergun approach. I've read the first three books, they're great and they do provide a lot of necessary and valuable context. I've also literally felt like I've read chapters that were utterly worthless.

Martin himself has admitted he started with a three book idea but gets "fascinated" with characters along the way and stops to admire them. Characters that have a minuscule chance of doing anything more than eating pages. It also has become obvious (and people tell me it becomes MUCH worse come book 4) that more and more time is spent on these cute deadends at the expense of the end-game.

Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.
I guess I'm just not seeing the same deadends that you are. I've greatly enjoyed the additionally stuff brought it - the 100 extra characters someone else mentioned. To each his own, I suppose.

diehardtwinsfan
06-25-2014, 04:49 PM
There is a wide gap between a straight ahead quest and Martin's scattergun approach. I've read the first three books, they're great and they do provide a lot of necessary and valuable context. I've also literally felt like I've read chapters that were utterly worthless.

Martin himself has admitted he started with a three book idea but gets "fascinated" with characters along the way and stops to admire them. Characters that have a minuscule chance of doing anything more than eating pages. It also has become obvious (and people tell me it becomes MUCH worse come book 4) that more and more time is spent on these cute deadends at the expense of the end-game.

Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.

It was worse in book 4... took a while for it to develop. Book 5 on the other hand was much more too the point as it tied all of that up. I'm really hoping Winds of Winter concentrates more on the main characters and sticks more to action.

TheLeviathan
06-25-2014, 04:57 PM
I guess I'm just not seeing the same deadends that you are. I've greatly enjoyed the additionally stuff brought it - the 100 extra characters someone else mentioned. To each his own, I suppose.

I think it's just appreciating the differences. The show is telling a better narrative. The books are building a more expansive and more interesting world.

The narrative isn't enhanced at all by 25 pages devoted to what some dude from some house that has no power had for dinner at a tournament 30 years ago. The narrative, IMO, suffers by such sidetracking.

kydoty
06-26-2014, 12:36 PM
Personally I don't think he's going to finish the series at all. He's already 65, out of shape, and it takes him several years or more to complete the book, and is doesn't seem like he is capable of working in any way other than what he is comfortable with.

mike wants wins
06-26-2014, 02:49 PM
I cannot imagine anyone thinks he will finish

crarko
06-29-2014, 03:59 PM
Ok, yes, I follow Wil. Deal with it.

http://youtu.be/SkeuZSH8zZ4

TheLeviathan
06-30-2014, 08:24 AM
Ok, yes, I follow Wil. Deal with it.

http://youtu.be/SkeuZSH8zZ4

That made me laugh, thanks for sharing.

PseudoSABR
06-30-2014, 11:08 PM
Hey, as a kid I was a totally into TNG, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around how Wil Wheaton has any cache even among sci-fi circles; his character was a spoiled douche, and I hated him as a kid. Though Wil, seems like a amiable adult that hardly forgives his TNG performance.

TheLeviathan
07-01-2014, 07:39 AM
Hey, as a kid I was a totally into TNG, but I have trouble wrapping my mind around how Wil Wheaton has any cache even among sci-fi circles; his character was a spoiled douche, and I hated him as a kid. Though Wil, seems like a amiable adult that hardly forgives his TNG performance.

Beverly was WAY more annoying. Short of the entire cast of Voyager she may have been the worst Star Trek character ever.

I always felt some of my Wesley hate stemmed from my much deeper hate for anything Beverly-centric.

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 08:18 AM
Oh, come on people. Everyone knows Diana Troy was the annoying one in TNG.

TNG is a somewhat overrated series, IMO. DS9 seasons 4-6 were the best ST episodes ever created (unfortunately, a large part of the series is borderline unwatchable). TNG had a handful of great characters but they were counter-balanced by some pretty awful characters (O'Brien, Keiko, Troy, Beverly, Wesley).

And I think Enterprise was really underrated. Voyager was ****ing awful outside of Janeway, who was fantastic. TOS was kitschy and progressive for its time but doesn't hold up today.

In case you were wondering, yes. I have seen every episode of every ST series.

TheLeviathan
07-01-2014, 08:36 AM
TNG is a somewhat overrated series, IMO. DS9 seasons 4-6 were the best ST episodes ever created (unfortunately, a large part of the series is borderline unwatchable).

I actually just went back and watched the Dominion-centric episodes of that series because I remember how much I loved that. I would completely agree with you. TNG was the most watchable front to back, but if you can pick and choose than DS9 is awesome.

I stand by Beverly Crusher being awful, even granting Troy being annoying.

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 08:42 AM
I actually just went back and watched the Dominion-centric episodes of that series because I remember how much I loved that. I would completely agree with you. TNG was the most watchable front to back, but if you can pick and choose than DS9 is awesome.

I stand by Beverly Crusher being awful, even granting Troy being annoying.

I would agree that TNG is probably the most watchable front-to-back but I really enjoyed the bulk of Enterprise as well. I think the show received a raw deal with the writer strike and subsequent cancellation. How it handled the Vulcans was particularly interesting and it turned T'Pol from eye candy to the most interesting character on the show, a Star Trek first. Outside of Uhura and Janeway, by the end she was the most rounded and least annoying female character in the STU.

For being a progressive show, ST has a long list of truly awful female characters.

A couple of years ago I went back and watched all of Voyager. Damn, that show was horribly racist and boring. Chakotay as the spiritual Native American (UGH) and Torres as the fiery latina were particularly painful to watch.

TheLeviathan
07-01-2014, 08:51 AM
I'll try and give Enterprise a shot, I never really did after Voyager.

diehardtwinsfan
07-01-2014, 08:52 AM
Oh, come on people. Everyone knows Diana Troy was the annoying one in TNG.

TNG is a somewhat overrated series, IMO. DS9 seasons 4-6 were the best ST episodes ever created (unfortunately, a large part of the series is borderline unwatchable). TNG had a handful of great characters but they were counter-balanced by some pretty awful characters (O'Brien, Keiko, Troy, Beverly, Wesley).

And I think Enterprise was really underrated. Voyager was ****ing awful outside of Janeway, who was fantastic. TOS was kitschy and progressive for its time but doesn't hold up today.

In case you were wondering, yes. I have seen every episode of every ST series.


Enterprise is up on Netfix right now. I hadn't seen hardly any of it, and I watched all of it in a few months. The characters were pretty good. There wasn't a single character where you'd just want to skip an episode if it was centered on them. The overall plot was excellent as well and built a very nice back story. Agree completely that this one was underrated, as I thought it was the best series yet. Quite surprised it didn't run longer.

mike wants wins
07-01-2014, 08:52 AM
ST: seen them all, I think.......I agree on Beverly, not my favorite at all. I don't agree on Wil's character. I think his character was highly inconsistent, sometimes interesting, sometimes annoying. As for Troy, meh. There were times I liked that character, but mostly I could never figure out how she didn't know more of what was going on, given her abilities. Now that I think about it, her character was annoying. My biggest issue with that series was that all the characters were kind of blah, really.

Agree on Janeway, great character. I often found others in that cast annoying though, for some reason.

DS9 was the show with the biggest highs and lows, very, very inconsistent.
Enterprise struggled with the "prequelness" of its story, imo. But I thought it had promise.

It is hard to believe how long it has been since we had another ST on tv......

diehardtwinsfan
07-01-2014, 08:54 AM
I actually just went back and watched the Dominion-centric episodes of that series because I remember how much I loved that. I would completely agree with you. TNG was the most watchable front to back, but if you can pick and choose than DS9 is awesome.

I stand by Beverly Crusher being awful, even granting Troy being annoying.


Yeah, I started watching DS9 on netfix and haven't made it out of the first season. It was pretty bad. I remember liking Voyager when it was running, but I just skipped to the end and watched the final episodes to see how they got home. That was kind of interesting.

diehardtwinsfan
07-01-2014, 08:54 AM
Speaking of Wil Wheaton, what does everyone thing of his new Sci-Fi show?

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 08:59 AM
Yeah, I started watching DS9 on netfix and haven't made it out of the first season. It was pretty bad. I remember liking Voyager when it was running, but I just skipped to the end and watched the final episodes to see how they got home. That was kind of interesting.

Start in the third season. You will enjoy the hell out of the show and you won't miss anything worth watching.

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 09:02 AM
As for Troy, meh. There were times I liked that character, but mostly I could never figure out how she didn't know more of what was going on, given her abilities. Now that I think about it, her character was annoying.

Troy was useless, which is one of my biggest problems with the character.

I yearned for the day when she'd squint her eyes and say "I sense hostility" after a first encounter over the com only to have Picard stand up, adjust his uniform, and just backhand her right there on the bridge.

TheLeviathan
07-01-2014, 09:03 AM
Yeah, I started watching DS9 on netfix and haven't made it out of the first season. It was pretty bad. I remember liking Voyager when it was running, but I just skipped to the end and watched the final episodes to see how they got home. That was kind of interesting.

You basically need to skip to the end of season 3 of DS9 - where they start to run into the Jem'hadar. Then the show picks up considerably.

(Edit....yeah...basically what brock already said)

PseudoSABR
07-01-2014, 11:06 AM
You basically need to skip to the end of season 3 of DS9 - where they start to run into the Jem'hadar. Then the show picks up considerably.

(Edit....yeah...basically what brock already said)DS9 really made use of narrative arcs spanning episodes and even seasons at the very end. While nearly all of TNG is stand alone episodes, DS9 moved towards a narrative structure that popularizes nearly all the successful shows. You can really see Ronald D. Moore's (Battle Star Gallatica producer/writer) influence as DS9 grows up.

PseudoSABR
07-01-2014, 11:11 AM
I'll try and give Enterprise a shot, I never really did after Voyager.
Enterprise is good. It took me a while to get over the fact that it wasn't continuing into the future. But the characters and writing are probably more authentic than any other Trek show, though still very much trekkie.

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 11:12 AM
DS9 really made use of narrative arcs spanning episodes and even seasons at the very end. While nearly all of TNG is stand alone episodes, DS9 moved towards a narrative structure that popularizes nearly all the successful shows. You can really see Ronald D. Moore's (Battle Star Gallatica producer/writer) influence as DS9 grows up.

True. Some amount of context for time period is needed for the shows. TNG came from the era of single episode stories. Just a few years later, DS9 was one of the first shows to start spanning seasons with story arcs (X-Files is probably the earliest and best example of this change in approach).

In today's time, DS9 holds up better because of this reason. Modern television is capable of so much more nuance than television of just 25 years ago. I rarely watched television as a child because even as a kid, I struggled with the lack of real consequence seen in television stories. Today, I watch more television than I do movies due to the capabilities brought by on-demand television and binge-watching. It allows television producers to create work with the subtlety and consequence of film, only they can do it over years and hundreds of hours of content. Breaking Bad is a shining example of such content.

PseudoSABR
07-01-2014, 11:14 AM
Troy was useless, which is one of my biggest problems with the character.

I yearned for the day when she'd squint her eyes and say "I sense hostility" after a first encounter over the com only to have Picard stand up, adjust his uniform, and just backhand her right there on the bridge.I love that episode where she loses her ability and Riker tells her off. I think it's called the Loss, but it's worth watching just because of how much the Jonathan Frazen (as Riker) seems to enjoy putting Troy in her place.

For such a supposedly progressive show, TNG had unforgivably dated women characters and plotlines. All the Geordi-centric episodes were god awful too.

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 11:18 AM
Enterprise is good. It took me a while to get over the fact that it wasn't continuing into the future. But the characters and writing are probably more authentic than any other Trek show, though still very much trekkie.

And the theme song. Good lord, that theme song. Brilliant imagery presented over what might be the most atrocious lyrics ever put to music.

It's so bad that my wife and I still joke about it constantly, years after we watched the show. For a minute, we seriously considered walking down the aisle to that song because it would have been so damned hilarious.

crarko
07-01-2014, 11:27 AM
The final season of Enterprise was quite good, other than the horrible finale.

DS-9 was easily my favorite, suffering only in comparison to Babylon 5.

But DS-9 gave us Vic Fontaine and Morn, which elevates it.

TheLeviathan
07-01-2014, 11:45 AM
I've always wondered if what made DS9 more successful at the narrative element was that it was a network staple as opposed to TNG's syndicated existence. (If I'm remembering that correctly that is)

Either way I appreciate the Enterprise advice. I let Voyager destroy my Trek watching and never gave it a fair shot.

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 11:50 AM
The final season of Enterprise was quite good, other than the horrible finale.

Man, I was so disappointed that they weren't able to finish the story arc started in the fourth season. The show was cancelled at the wrong time and the network forced the producers to ham-handedly end the series with one of the worst finale episodes ever put on television.

mike wants wins
07-01-2014, 12:06 PM
Could have been worse, could have been handled like Firefly.....

Brock Beauchamp
07-01-2014, 12:15 PM
Could have been worse, could have been handled like Firefly.....

Ugh. Just ugh. I'm not in love with Firefly like so many of my fellow geeks but it was a pretty good show that deserved a lot better than it received.

On that note, so did The Tick, which released during that same period but only made it nine episodes.

That show was freakin' hilarious. It deserved so much better.

mike wants wins
07-01-2014, 12:49 PM
I love Firefly. Some great, great characters. And some humor, and super dark moments.

snepp
07-01-2014, 09:33 PM
I've watched every Trek episode....multiple times.


Love Firefly.


I am geek.

crarko
07-03-2014, 01:54 PM
Firefly was good. And at least they had Serenity as a follow-up. Another series I thought died young was Terra Nova.

For now Walking Dead and Falling Skies are what I follow. Who, of course, and it would be nice if Torchwood gets some kind of update.

And I still hold out hope for Agents of Shield.

diehardtwinsfan
07-03-2014, 02:54 PM
Man, I was so disappointed that they weren't able to finish the story arc started in the fourth season. The show was cancelled at the wrong time and the network forced the producers to ham-handedly end the series with one of the worst finale episodes ever put on television.


I wasn't watching it when it came out, so I missed most of this... I'm a bit surprised though that it didn't do well. I started watching and from start, right up until the end, I was always looking forward to the next one... Season 4 struck me as a 'tie up as many loose ends as possible' type thing.

TheLeviathan
07-03-2014, 03:31 PM
For now Walking Dead

If you haven't read the source material avoid it like a zombie plague. It's VASTLY superior to the show, so if you enjoy it now, don't ruin it for yourself thinking about what might have been.